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[Sosokrates]

So after hearing about the next playground game is being developed on the 1X as lead platform.

What do you think about this approach?

For example:
Are you happy with say ND making last of us 2 look unlike any PS4 game because they are taking advantage of the pro but the PS4 version is 720p-900p with less aa and effects?

Or should the Pro/X version just be an enhanced base version?

Can gamers really complain if the base version looks shabby, now that they have system for graphics concerned gamers?

 

[nowhat]

Are you happy with say ND making last of us 2 look unlike any PS4 game because they are taking advantage of the pro but the PS4 version is 720p-900p with less aaand effects?

Insofar as I can parse what you are trying to write - do you have any data to back this up? ND is a first party studio, and as such a) they really know their hardware and do take advantage of it, and b) they are aware that the base version is still what the majority of people own. If TLoU part 2 will run at sub-1080p resolution I'll happily eat crow, but more than likely I think it'll be 1080p on the base version.

 

[Sosokrates]

Insofar as I can parse what you are trying to write - do you have any data to back this up? ND is a first party studio, and as such a) they really know their hardware and do take advantage of it, and b) they are aware that the base version is still what the majority of people own. If TLoU part 2 will run at sub-1080p resolution I'll happily eat crow, but more than likely I think it'll be 1080p on the base version.

It was an example.

 

[nowhat]

It was an example.

An example with no basis in reality? I guess that's an example as well...

Both Sony and MS have been pretty forthcoming that there will be no exclusives for the mid-gen refreshes. As such, all the games will run on the base versions too. Now, could it be that either or both companies are lying? Sure, but they would be shooting their own feet so hard it's pretty much a suicide. While both companies are capable of epic corporate blunders (Sony even more so), I don't think either are that stupid.

 

[Dlacy13g]

An example with no basis in reality? I guess that's an example as well...

Both Sony and MS have been pretty forthcoming that there will be no exclusives for the mid-gen refreshes. As such, all the games will run on the base versions too. Now, could it be that either or both companies are lying? Sure, but they would be shooting their own feet so hard it's pretty much a suicide. While both companies are capable of epic corporate blunders (Sony even more so), I don't think either are that stupid.

I think what Sosokrates was getting at was what if instead of developing a game on PS4/Xbox One first and then enhancing to the PS4 Pro/X1X they develop a game first using PS4 Pro/X1X and then down port that game to the PS4/XO since that would satisfy the "it plays on all platforms" rule. The implication being those games would really shine on the mid gen platforms and take better advantage of the hardware.

 

[Artistic]

Not that different from phasing out older hardware when entering a new generation in my opinion.

 

[hiphopcr]

I always thought this was overblown. PC has been developing for highest spec for years now.

Develop for the premium platform and parcel down for base platforms.

 

[Leonidas]

Great idea. I want Scorpio to become the base Xbox One in a few years.

 

[ProBusinessgamer]

So after hearing about the next playground game is being developed on the 1X as lead platform.

What do you think about this approach?

For example:
Are you happy with say ND making last of us 2 look unlike any PS4 game because they are taking advantage of the pro but the PS4 version is 720p-900p with less aaand effects?

Or should the Pro/X version just be an enhanced base version?

Can gamers really complain if the base version looks shabby, now that they have system for graphics concerned gamers?

Who cares, the lead playform is just some childish fanboy stuff... if you enjoy the game, why would or should it even matter.

 

[Sosokrates]

Who cares, the lead playform is just some childish fanboy stuff... if you enjoy the game, why would or should it even matter.

What??

This is nothing to do with "fanboy stuff"

This aint rocket science, its a rather simple question.

As to why it matters, well which approach would you prefer?

I personally prefer devs taking advantage of the mid gen refreshes because I own them and it will mean better graphics for them.

 

[Sosokrates]

An example with no basis in reality? I guess that's an example as well...

Both Sony and MS have been pretty forthcoming that there will be no exclusives for the mid-gen refreshes. As such, all the games will run on the base versions too. Now, could it be that either or both companies are lying? Sure, but they would be shooting their own feet so hard it's pretty much a suicide. While both companies are capable of epic corporate blunders (Sony even more so), I don't think either are that stupid.

 

[shpankey]

It’s pretty clear what the OP is asking and why. Not sure why it’s being warped around.

Anyhow, yes, I think it’s a good idea to develop games that way and would in fact prefer it. Later gen GPUs often offer specific graphical effects built in that would otherwise be left out, so I’m for it. Otherwise you’re getting mostly resolution and framerate upgrades.

 

[Artistic]

I want Scorpio to become the base Xbox One in a few years.

Agreed, but how many years is a few years? And what happens to all of the One/One S owners in the process?

 

[rokkerkory]

Playground said it would benefit vanilla xb1 so I believe them. They are pretty much tech wizards.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Nah

 

[ReBurn]

This is nothing like PC where developers aim for higher specs and allow players to dial back for their hardware. Console is a closed ecosystem with a finite number of configurations and solid data on who is buying games for which configuration. The developer doesn't have as good of a picture in the PC world, so they target the most viable product for the largest number of configurations they can.

What would really drive the decision on console is the base-to-enhanced ratio, because at the end of the day the developer needs people to buy the game. I don't know what the base-to-pro ratio is for PS4. If it were, say, 8 base for every 1 pro then Naughty Dog would need to focus on making that base version of Last of Us 2 the absolute best it can be and then add gravy in the pro enhancements. Why? Because they don't want those base owners to feel stiffed by an inferior product since that's where most of their sales are likely to come from.

If we ever cross the threshold where most of the games are purchased by owners of Pro/X consoles then we will definitely see a shift to the more powerful hardware taking the lead. But not until that happens.

 

[Leonidas]

Agreed, but how many years is a few years? And what happens to all of the One/One S owners in the process?

Whenever the next generation Xbox comes out I fully expect MS to drop support for the Xbox One S and original model. No gamers were left behind with the X, but it will be different when the next Xbox comes out. If the next Xbox launches in 2-3 years that will make the original Xbox a viable system for 7-8 years, that is a very long generation. At that point One/One S users will have the option of continuing to play the limited number of games still coming to the older platform or upgrading to the X or next generation Xbox to play newer titles.

 

[rokkerkory]

Whenever the next generation Xbox comes out I fully expect MS to drop support for the Xbox One S and original model. No gamers were left behind with the X, but it will be different when the next Xbox comes out. If the next Xbox launches in 2-3 years that will make the original Xbox a viable system for 7-8 years, that is a very long generation. At that point One/One S users will have the option of continuing to play the limited number of games still coming to the older platform or upgrading to the X or next generation Xbox to play newer titles.

BC will take care of this.

 

[DryvBy]

I like my PS4 Pro a lot since I have a 4K screen. I still use a jank ol OG Xbox One though.

 

[Artistic]

Whenever the next generation Xbox comes out I fully expect MS to drop support for the Xbox One S and original model. No gamers were left behind with the X, but it will be different when the next Xbox comes out. If the next Xbox launches in 2-3 years that will make the original Xbox a viable system for 7-8 years, that is a very long generation. At that point One/One S users will have the option of continuing to play the limited number of games still coming to the older platform or upgrading to the X or next generation Xbox to play newer titles.

As Spencer has stated though, they expect to sell more of the One S than the One X. I wouldn't expect at any point for One X sales to surpass those of the One S unless Microsoft does eventually plan on having One X exclusive titles sooner than later. I can see an superior Xbox releasing to supplant the One X as the premium Xbox of choice, but nothing to the point where they'll just drop the largest install base so soon.

A 3 tier system is the best choice until MS can probably bring the One X to like $300, maybe $250 before completely dropping One/One S support. Or maybe never dropping support altogether.

 

[ReBurn]

As Spencer has stated though, they expect to sell more of the One S than the One X. I wouldn't expect at any point for One X sales to surpass those of the One S unless Microsoft does eventually plan on having One X exclusive titles sooner than later. I can see an superior Xbox releasing to supplant the One X as the premium Xbox of choice, but nothing to the point where they'll just drop the largest install base so soon.

A 3 tier system is the best choice until MS can probably bring the One X to like $300, maybe $250 before completely dropping One/One S support. Or maybe never dropping support altogether.

I would be surprised if Microsoft officially supports 3 different SKUs. When they have a new top-end machine ready I think they will sunset the S and drop the price of the X to be the entry level.

 

[Leonidas]

As Spencer has stated though, they expect to sell more of the One S than the One X. I wouldn't expect at any point for One X sales to surpass those of the One S unless Microsoft does eventually plan on having One X exclusive titles sooner than later. I can see an superior Xbox releasing to supplant the One X as the premium Xbox of choice, but nothing to the point where they'll just drop the largest install base so soon.

A 3 tier system is the best choice until MS can probably bring the One X to like $300, maybe $250 before completely dropping One/One S support. Or maybe never dropping support altogether.

One S sells more because it's much cheaper & runs all the games and will continue selling more as long as that's the case. The S is already close to as cheap as it's going to go. In time the X will drop in price and become the base model with a matching base model price while the S becomes a legacy platform like 360. Once the S is dropped it will continue getting some of the games(just like the 360 still saw a number of releases in 2017, 12 years after launch) it just won't get everything.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

You know, after playing GR Wildlands on my PS4 for a few months and then on the PS4 Pro (and also seeing how it looks on One X), it already feels like the game was clearly made with stronger specs in mind and that the original PS4 performance/quality was not their original goal... it's not a huge change on PS4 Pro but the small boost in performance goes a long-long way to making the gameplay 'feel' right ... And, the change on One X is sexy and clearly how the game should look (optimally, on console; to disclaim the 'ideal' is still those settings + 60fps on PC).

So, I think even before the 'console S' upgrades were released, some games were already overshooting the OG specs. Would surprise me even less see this continue. At least for certain games, e.g. the typical multi-plats that release on PC and average a downgrade or two -- Pro and X could 'enable' them to overshoot even more.

Don't think it'll be common practice or official designated (e.g. lead platform) but games like Far Cry 5, or maybe RDR 2... Cuz you just know Rockstar is gonna design RDR2 not only with the Pro and X in mind, but even the PS5 and 'nextBox' in mind cuz R* loves that re-release money. If we ever get a GTA 6 on current gen haha it will sure as heck be designed around next gen as much as current gen.

 

[Artistic]

Well the only question I could ask is the One X selling at a loss? Or any XB1 at all?

I just can't see them dropping support as they'll lose out on software sales amongst anything else. What is a comfortable number of sales for MS to decide and say it's time for a One X2, when the lower end hardware more than likely will always outpace it in sales?

Also, with the higher end hardware being the lead platforms, would games have issues like PUBG does to where it's not a enjoyable experience as far as gaming? Or would all games eventually have PC-like graphical options to where you might not get the best visual experience, but you still get the full game as it was intended to be from the developers?

 

[JaxBriggs]

Can gamers really complain if the base version looks shabby, now that they have system for graphics concerned gamers?

Choosing ND as an example was probably a poor choice as I'm sure they'll make the base version look spectacular anyway, but to answer your question..

There are now more than 70M PS4's sold, and the Pro would make up what, a few million of that at most? I think the vanilla PS4 owners have every right to expect a top quality product considering they by and large make up the majority of ownership. I think it would be a critical mistake to put such a focus on the enhanced version to the point of the standard version suffering or compromising in any way.

I don't know the numbers for the Xbox side but I assume it's a similar situation in that the X makes up only a small percentage of totals owned.

 

[Sosokrates]

Choosing ND as an example was probably a poor choice as I'm sure they'll make the base version look spectacular anyway, but to answer your question..

There are now more than 70M PS4's sold, and the Pro would make up what, a few million of that at most? I think the vanilla PS4 owners have every right to expect a top quality product considering they by and large make up the majority of ownership. I think it would be a critical mistake to put such a focus on the enhanced version to the point of the standard version suffering or compromising in any way.

I don't know the numbers for the Xbox side but I assume it's a similar situation in that the X makes up only a small percentage of totals owned.

Choosing ND was not a poor choice because its a hypothetical example, frankly it does not matter whos in the example lol, as long as its a game that will get pro or X support.

It could be the colaition, ssm, playground games it dont fucking matter because its a hypothetical example......ok

 

[YoshiMax]

Insofar as I can parse what you are trying to write - do you have any data to back this up? ND is a first party studio, and as such a) they really know their hardware and do take advantage of it, and b) they are aware that the base version is still what the majority of people own. If TLoU part 2 will run at sub-1080p resolution I'll happily eat crow, but more than likely I think it'll be 1080p on the base version.

They’ll also be aware that if it was 900p most ordinary owners wouldn’t even notice never mind give a shit if it was pointed out to them.

 

[deathsaber]

I think with PS4 and PS4 Pro- its less of a thing to say which is "lead" platform. Games that run in the 4k neighborhood on pro at 30fps, generally will run fine on OG PS4 at 1080 at 30 fps, (maybe rendered at 900p or 720p if need be). Maybe they dial shadows/foliage depth back a notch. But its still the same game, highly playable, and decent looking on an HDTV and at a good framerate. Really, theres no need to leave PS4 behind in any way because its pretty easy to scale down to the old hardware.

I think Xbox One X is a more interesting specimen, because they really jacked the power up with that one compared to the old hardware- in that they *could* almost call that a new generation and say, well, all first party is now going to be Xbox One X native, and that's that. But, it would probably be a foolhardy move, as Sony now owns and dictates this generation, and third party devs are going to stick with the PS4/PS4 pro spec sheets for the games they will make. MS isn't going to attract third party AAA devs that need 5+ million sold to break even, because they won't get those sales on an Xbox One X Exclusive (that only includes a small percentage of the Xbox userbase currently to begin with!) They need the PS4 userbase, and its worldwide presence, so that's basically all there is to it..

I just don't see it happening, the current status quo is very clear- OG consoles = 1080p gaming, Pro/X = 4K (with X being native 4k, and Pro versions maybe rendering around 1400k or checkerboarded 4k. Either way games are beautiful and run great.

 

[Shil Pencer]

Pretty sure with the latest Xbox rumor leaks it’s come out that Microsoft’s first party has the X as the lead platform and games will be in ultimate lazy terms dumbed down to work on the og and s.

 

[Artistic]

Was there a time PC was ever the lead platform for development? PC seems to be more niche nowadays compared to when COD, Unreal Tournament, etc. were premier PC exclusives.

Surely the hardware is powerful enough to output a 4K resolution, but we can't expect every game to run at native 4K?

 

[JaxBriggs]

It could be the colaition, ssm, playground games it dont fucking matter because its a hypothetical example......ok

Wow. There's really no need to get so upset.

Do you have any thoughts as to the rest of my reply?

PC seems to be more niche nowadays compared to when COD, Unreal Tournament, etc. we're premier PC exclusives.

PC gaming is far from niche. It's going from strength to strength.

Look at what PC comprises of today compared to when COD was exclusive. It's a totally different landscape now, and a far stronger one at that.

 

[BANGS]

No reason to gimp the experience. Optimize the games for the best hardware, and drop performance/graphics for the weaker consoles. That makes a hell of alot more sense than optimizing for the weaker hardware and just upping resolution or whatnot for the better hardware...

 

[nowhat]

No reason to gimp the experience. Optimize the games for the best hardware, and drop performance/graphics for the weaker consoles. That makes a hell of alot more sense than optimizing for the weaker hardware and just upping resolution or whatnot for the better hardware...

Makes a hell of a lot more sense... other than, you know, potentially pissing of the vast majority of your target platform's install base? AFAIK about one in five PS4s sold is a Pro. That, obviously, is since the Pro was released, so there are waaaay more base models out there than Pros. Microsoft doesn't seem to want to release actual sales numbers anymore, but I'd wager the split is somewhat similar - and even if X would be selling way better, that still means there are tons of regular (be they the original or S) Ones out there.

So yeah. If you don't care for the majority of your userbase, it makes total sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

 

[Sosokrates]

Wow. There's really no need to get so upset.

Do you have any thoughts as to the rest of my reply?

I think your having a hard time understanding what a hypothetical example is.
Let me demonstrate:

Someone could say
"An actof war is an action or event that justifies a state's declaration of war in just war theory or under international law. For example if the UK were to launch 10 missles on at America, that would be considered an act of war."

Now does that mean the UK is going to do or is likely to do this? No it doesn't its just an example.
I made an example to try and better explain what the thread is about.
Not as a testament to which dev and game I think its going to happen to.
But seeing as ND and TLOU2 has been brought up a few times now I will address my thoughts on the matter.
Personally I expect 1080p 30fps on base and 4kcb@30fps on pro.However Im sure sonys 1st parties and sony have had discussions and are discussing this subject.
After all, the better they can make a game look the better it is for a game. It brings a specticle and buzz around the game and its good for the marketing of the game.
Also would going down to 900p ,reduced AA and effects really be big hit in quality for most base PS4 players? In other aspects, like lighting, could be improved on base PS4. Which would be the reason for the reduction in IQ.Like others have said in this thread I doubt the majority of base PS4 players would even notice.

Its kinda of how the battlefront games do things, reduce IQ so they can have great lighting, effects and framerate.

 

[Aklamarth]

Ain't gonna happen. But further down the line ( 2 years ? ) , Microsoft could actually reelase as slim version of XBX as the "new" Xbox at a good price point.

 

[BANGS]

Makes a hell of a lot more sense... other than, you know, potentially pissing of the vast majority of your target platform's install base? AFAIK about one in five PS4s sold is a Pro. That, obviously, is since the Pro was released, so there are waaaay more base models out there than Pros. Microsoft doesn't seem to want to release actual sales numbers anymore, but I'd wager the split is somewhat similar - and even if X would be selling way better, that still means there are tons of regular (be they the original or S) Ones out there.

So yeah. If you don't care for the majority of your userbase, it makes total sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

Actually they'd be pissing off everyone who just bought your shiny new system, ensuring that such a thing never happens again. People who own the weaker consoles are already for the most part getting gimped versions of PC ports, the process wouldn't be much different...

 

[MaximusPayne]

The LOU2 approach will probably more of the same as Uncharted 4 and Lost Legacy. What Playground is doing is taking advantage of every aspect of the new system then will bare bones it for the people who have to have the experience without all of the bells and whistles. Wouldn't that be like min/max specs for pc versions?

 

[Artistic]

PC gaming is far from niche. It's going from strength to strength.

Look at what PC comprises of today compared to when COD was exclusive. It's a totally different landscape now, and a far stronger one at that.

What's the biggest PC exclusive of recent years? Same question for consoles.

I would guess Arma, and that might be an incorrect guess. While to me, it's either Uncharted or TLOU for consoles.


What I'm really getting at is there's no premier PC exclusive or IP I can think of that's on the forefront of gaming as a whole. Even gaming as a whole has expanded much from just the hardcore techie image it used to have years back. Don't think a term like "casual gamer" existed back during the start of the new millennium.

 

[BANGS]

Don't think a term like "casual gamer" existed back during the start of the new millennium.

That's actually about the time the term started being used. The popularity of PS2 brought alot of casuals into our hobby... the GTA and Madden guys that didn't play much else...

 

[GreatnessRD]

My question is why are people too stupid to understand that certain hardware can't keep up with newer product. The games should be maxed out to the best of their abilities on PS4 Pro, PS4 base, Xbox One X and Xbox One S/launch. I'm sorry that you can't get 4K models on your 2013 launch PS4, Timmy. Sorry about your damn luck.

I hate it so bad! Gaming parity is a joke UNLESS it breaks the game or makes a dynamic different far as online or something goes.

 

[Artistic]

That's actually about the time the term started being used. The popularity of PS2 brought alot of casuals into our hobby... the GTA and Madden guys that didn't play much else...

What would be a casual game series before that?

Yes, admittedly, if you only play the top tier gaming franchises, in my opinion, that kind of makes one a casual gamer. At the same time, I can't think of one benefit that being an actual gamer has in life outside of it being either a time waster or interactive entertainment.

 

[JaxBriggs]

I think your having a hard time understanding what a hypothetical example is.

I don't have trouble understanding at all. I gave a detailed response to your initial question and explained my reasoning.

Thanks though for the condescending reply.

What's the biggest PC exclusive of recent years?

There would be a few, but one that sticks out for me is probably League of Legends which has something around 80 million monthly players.

But on that note, don't let yourself get hung up defining a platform by exclusives alone. Look at the bigger picture. Back when COD was exclusive, PC used to be lucky to get any of the console ports and even when they did cross over they were oven poor and buggy efforts. Things are very different these days in that regard. PC gaming today is a much bigger and more varied beast, certainly not niche at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Fbh]

I'm no dev and have no idea about the logistics involved.
But for me it makes more sense to use the base models as the lead platform and then enhance the Pro/X/PC version according to what every platform can handle.
That way both people playing on base hardware and on the newer systems will be pleased.

The other way around you end up with shit like the last gen version of Shadow of Mordor except worse because that crappy version is the one almost everyone on consoles would be playing.

No reason to gimp the experience. Optimize the games for the best hardware, and drop performance/graphics for the weaker consoles. That makes a hell of alot more sense than optimizing for the weaker hardware and just upping resolution or whatnot for the better hardware...

What does not make sense about making sure the version that the VAST majority of your audience will play is well optimized?
How many games today are built for high end PC's and then gimped for consoles and mid/low end PC's? Almost none because it doesn't make sense. The vast majority of games (at least AAA ones) are designed and optimized to work well on consoles and then the extra power of the PC is used for higher resolutions, 60fps+, better textures, better draw distances, etc.

 

[Sosokrates]

I don't have trouble understanding at all. I gave a detailed response to your initial question and explained my reasoning.

Thanks though for the condescending reply.



There would be a few, but one that sticks out for me is probably League of Legends which has something around 80 million monthly players.

But on that note, don't let yourself get hung up defining a platform by exclusives alone. Look at the bigger picture. Back when COD was exclusive, PC used to be lucky to get any of the console ports and even when they did cross over they were oven poor and buggy efforts. Things are very different these days in that regard. PC gaming today is a much bigger and more varied beast, certainly not niche at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

Your welcome, sorry if you found my reply condescending.

 

[JaxBriggs]

What does not make sense about making sure the version that the VAST majority of your audience will play is well optimized?

Exactly. Catering to the what, 2% (?) of your crowd at the expense of the vast majority is a terrible idea.

 

[Artistic]

Anyone remember the name of the TV show on G4(or Tech TV) where it was two guys reviewing games on a 30 min block. Like 3 games were reviewed per episode?

 

[GreatnessRD]

Anyone remember the name of the TV show on G4(or Tech TV) where it was two guys reviewing games on a 30 min block. Like 3 games were reviewed per episode?

Xplay

 

[Gavin Stevens]

As somebody who works with the art pipeline let me just say this:

Its vastly easier to make things high quality and downsize, compared to making them low quality and upsize.

Case in point. You make a game for target spec, which is lets say for example, xbox one quality. xbox 2 comes along, and you want to do a remaster? What do you do? Well, now you have your work cut out for you, everything is low res, everything needs to be redone. So its a huge job. Polycounts cant just be set "higher", and textures can't just be upscaled with a filter on them (unless you're Skyrim). So you have no choice but to remake your media in the vein of the RE4 HD project. Not a good way to do things.

Or...

You make your assets at higher than needed quality. Then just downscale them for your hardware or simply use a lower quality setting. This can have adverse effects on memory consumption, but it all depends really. Either way, you can press a disk with lower quality assets saved lower quality, while still having the original high quality assets. Now when next gen comes, or hell, even when the X/Pro come, you can just re-release or update the game. Boom ,you ahev an instant high quality patch ready to go. Model LODs are pretty much the same thing, either instruct the engine to only use a lower quality LOD, or just don't use the highest, and release them later on.

Other things are pretty simple, Particle LOD, filter quality, resolution, all easily changed quite quickly.


So in terms in what makes the most sense, it actually makes more sense to make a higher than needed quality product and then downscale where needed. This is what most good companies do. However, the better companies will actually go back over those lower quality assets and just make sure everything has still been left readable, as somethings mip quite badly when resized.

 

[shpankey]

Exactly. Catering to the what, 2% (?) of your crowd at the expense of the vast majority is a terrible idea.

Isn’t this what happens at the start of a new console lifecycle anyhow?

 

[JaxBriggs]

Isn’t this what happens at the start of a new console lifecycle anyhow?

Sure but as a new generation starts it is expected that support will naturally change over to the new platform.

We're talking about current generation/hardware here. Big difference IMO.