Support NeoGAF

[rjinaz]

I canceled my extra Amazon console recently because it seems to me that the demand is not going to be all that high since there is going to be a lot out there. Everyday, more and more PS4 preorders are popping up on eBay, there are literally hundreds if not thousands and there will be hundreds more. Then eBay fees and shipping leave only a little bit of profit.

So yeah that's what I did. I have no problem with scalping, I just didn't see much profit it in this time. Now I'll leave before somebody tells me I make them sick, they want me to lose all of my money, go to hell, or even die. Stay classy.

 

[Lee]

My girlfriend's stepdad wanted to get in on the PS3 craze but had to work. Offered her and I $100 each + a $45 Sam's club membership to camp out and get the only 2 consoles the local Sam's would have in stock. We waited for 18 hours and a ton of people showed up trying to get one but left when the manager told them they were only getting 2 and we were guaranteed them if we stayed. Morning comes, they open, we buy the consoles, and as I'm walking out this guy pulls up in a tricked out Honda Civic and offers me $1,700 cash for one of them. I call my girlfriend's stepdad, as it was his money, his console, and he tells me not to take it, that they are selling for more on Ebay.

Needless to say they weren't. I think he ended up losing money after all was said and done, after paying us the $245.

Greed'll get ya.

 

[Senor Kami]

I've touched on this, but whether it's worth getting bent out of shape about, it's pretty clear to me why it rubs people the wrong way. Not everyone knows months out that they're going to want and/or be able to afford something like this. Just as one of many possibilities, maybe I'm just now realizing that finances are under control, and thanks to an expected raise/bonus I can treat myself to a PS4. Only I can't, because it's sold out. When you subsequently realize that the "sell out" situation may be greatly impacted by people buying strictly for the purposes of reselling, it's pretty clear why I might take issue with it, even if I stop well short of thinking that resellers are morally bankrupt.

So regardless of reason, you waited to the last minute to get a high demand item and found yourself shit out of luck. Explain how that's a scalper's fault? You're not getting a system from that store regardless of the intentions of why someone else in front of you purchased one, whether it's to scalp, to keep, to raffle off, to give away, to break with a bat, to give to charity, to use at a gaming bar, to buy and let collect dust so they can come on GAF and say console x is collecting dust, to drop off a building, to reverse engineer, to whatever etc. You're not getting one.

It's not an ethical issue. Someone wanted one and they took preparations to make sure they could get it. You didn't and that's why you're not getting one, not because of a scalping. Your improper planning didn't prevent piss-poor performance. The person in the mirror is the only one to blame.

 

[Johnny]

There would be no resellers profiting off of these system launches if supply met demand at the retail price. Whether a reseller buys a unit at retail, or a someone else does, the end result is one less unit available for purchase at MSRP. The only difference between the two is the fact that the reseller still offers you an opportunity to purchase the item, while the "real gamers" don't.

 

[Prologue]

Another thread turned into basically this yesterday and I asked about it. I was basically told to go away and mind my own business. Now we get an actual "official" thread about it. I'm really surprised this stuff doesn't get locked. At the very least, keep it to the buy/sell/trade section of GAF.

I don't agree with the practice and I won't tell anyone they can't do what they want with their system. I do hope we get another WiiU type scenario where scalpers are unable to sell any of the systems and have to return them in droves, or lose money.

Really? Neogaf gets 30 pages of whining man children over a comment a developer makes while this should get locked?

I've touched on this, but whether it's worth getting bent out of shape about, it's pretty clear to me why it rubs people the wrong way. Not everyone knows months out that they're going to want and/or be able to afford something like this. Just as one of many possibilities, maybe I'm just now realizing that finances are under control, and thanks to an expected raise/bonus I can treat myself to a PS4. Only I can't, because it's sold out. When you subsequently realize that the "sell out" situation may be greatly impacted by people buying strictly for the purposes of reselling, it's pretty clear why I might take issue with it, even if I stop well short of thinking that resellers are morally bankrupt.

So in other words, that person isn't prepared. Wether or not finances are there, a lot of retail outlets allowed FREE preorders. I might be more understanding if this was a product that sold over night but it wasn't.

 

[FroJay]

I sold three of them of already. One for $575, another for $625, and the last one for $590. I also sold an Xbox One day one edition on Ebay. I had 5 PS4 pre-orders and sold 3 of them. I'm keeping one for myself, and giving the other to my brother in law as a Christmas present.

So I end up getting my PS4 for "free" and my brother in law's will cost me around $250 when it's all said and done.

I don't understand the reseller hate on here when so many people are taking advantage of the Target "steal" on games etc. Anyway, things worked out well on this end, but Ebay is making it much tougher to sell systems.

 

[mantis23]

If it's suddenly unacceptable to sell items over MSRP, somebody should go tell the dudes on ebay to sell me an Earthbound SNES cart for MSRP.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I gotta be honest, id ps4s are going for 800 on kijiji i nught flip mine. I dont want to but the difference would essential make the ps4 free. Hard call though. I doubt 800 would happen anyways.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I hate dealing with selling physical systems so much like with the wiiU I simply sold paid off pre order slips.

Sold all 6 of my pre orders well I have one through amazon as well for myself.

I also sold all 3 of my xbone pre orders but I got less money for them.

Made about 200$ per ps4, 120ish per xbone.




PS3 launch was the best, list console on ebay, see that it sells, walk to best buy and buy one of their 100 extra consoles, and just walk to the post office next door to best buy.

Easiest money I ever made.

 

[brickarts295]

I have 2 coming in.
One this week, and another in december with killzone and a year of ps plus for like 430$ or something(after rebates and all that with shop.ca and ebates) which is really cheaper than the first one that does not come with no games(459$ including tax) only the console.

I might do 3 things with the first one.
1.Sell it to my cousin who lives in NY if he cant get one because he seriously thought the stock was going to be easy for him to get one.(Now he gots to wake up early lol). He'll pay what I paid retail price and taxes, and will only pay shipping
2.Sell it for like 50$ more(That's 50$ will penalize your ass for not trying to pre order. Seriously they don't CHARGE YOUR CARD WHY U DONT PREORDER!)
3.Use it and return it when my 2nd PS3 comes.

lol, i think that's fair, 2013 and still some of my friend don't know how to pre order their shit. And now they have to start getting in line, in a cold ass weather this Thursday night. XD

 

[Bob Dobalina]

What are the risks in selling an amazon delivery address change on eBay?

 

[diablos991]

What are the risks in selling an amazon delivery address change on eBay?

Amazon delivering it to a shady neighborhood.
Buyer files a paypal claim.
Buyer gets refunded.
You have no console and no money.

You can't control where your buyer lives.

 

[Gotchaye]

No, but people buying for that intention clearly are contributing to the item being sold out.

I think it's sufficient to point out that the particular PS4 a scalper is buying from a retailer is one that an end-consumer is not buying, and (in the typical case where the scalper profits) is one that an end-consumer would have bought if not for scalpers. It doesn't need to be the case that the item would not be sold out if not for scalpers in general, because scalpers aren't a unified group (I don't know if this is what you're saying, but just to clarify).

As someone who does think scalping is immoral, here's my perspective on it:

What makes scalping generally wrong is that it's parasitic. End-consumers are interchangeable; Joe Consumer who buys his PS4 from Best Buy is expected to get about as much out of it as Jane Consumer who buys her PS4 from a scalper because Best Buy was sold out. There's no efficiency gain from scalping, which is not the case for the other situations people sometimes bring up as analogies, like retail sales in general. It's pure rent-seeking from the scalpers, and they're extracting this rent just because they were in line first. But lines are inefficient themselves, relative to something like lotteries, and so it's all just perpetuating a pretty terrible way of distributing systems. Worse, scalpers are extracting rent entirely from end-consumers, rather than big businesses or similar. Most people have no problem understanding that this sort of parasitic activity is wrong when big banks do it.

This is not to say that scalping is never excusable - a lot is excusable if you really need the money. And this is not to say that scalping is the worst thing in the world - it's just being a financial parasite, which is if nothing else a relatively common sort of immorality.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

So regardless of reason, you waited to the last minute to get a high demand item and found yourself shit out of luck. Explain how that's a scalper's fault? You're not getting a system from that store regardless of the intentions of why someone else in front of you purchased one, whether it's to scalp, to keep, to raffle off, to give away, to break with a bat, to give to charity, to use at a gaming bar, to buy and let collect dust so they can come on GAF and say console x is collecting dust, to drop off a building, to reverse engineer, to whatever etc. You're not getting one.

It's not an ethical issue. Someone wanted one and they took preparations to make sure they could get it. You didn't and that's why you're not getting one, not because of a scalping. Your improper planning didn't prevent piss-poor performance. The person in the mirror is the only one to blame.

So in other words, that person isn't prepared. Wether or not finances are there, a lot of retail outlets allowed FREE preorders. I might be more understanding if this was a product that sold over night but it wasn't.

I'm starting to find this defensiveness tiring. Again, I'm trying to just argue from a nuanced position without condemning individuals as monsters as to why some people find the practice distasteful. I'm taking care not to make any outlandish comparisons or speak in moral absolutes. There's no reason for these lazy platitudes wherein we just say "the early bird gets the worm" and call it a day concluding that I have no leg to stand on.

To get straight to the point, I think chalking up not immediately preordering to "improper planning" is insanely disingenuous, and I've argued why more than once. To reiterate again, I (and I want this to be read as a more general and hypothetical "I" to avoid lazy personal responses) don't buy things just to sell them for a profit. When preorders go live, I'm not going to sign up immediately just because I know I can sell it if I don't want it. I'm going to claim a preorder only because at that point, I intend to buy and keep it. That's just how I am (and again, how many people are).

There's this notion that preparation is needed for this hectic period, but what some believe -- and this is clearly true even if it's not the main reason for shortages -- is that the lack of availability for people that genuinely want a product can at least in part be attributed solely to other consumers seeking to profit off of this demographic. Now, again, you don't have to conclude that these people are committing an egregious ethical violation, but I don't understand why there is a complete disconnect in terms of understanding why some are less than thrilled at the practice.

When the argument is "you have no one to blame but yourself for being beaten to the punch, you could have also preordered just like the fine upstanding person that clicked a button on a website because they figured they could make easy money doing so," I'm kind of at a loss when there is no willingness to understand at all why regular consumers aren't altogether eager to applaud that practice. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, nor am I banning people who scalp. I'm not even asking admins for negative tags. I'm just having a discussion and speaking my piece.

People are obviously free to disagree, but I am admittedly frustrated by the stubbornness and lack of empathy some exhibit.

 

[Popnbake]

PS3 preorders were going for so much money (1k-2k easily) that I got two PS3 consoles to sell. But by the time I got them Ebay disallowed selling preorders or some nonsense so I couldn't list until I had the consoles. And by then the price plummeted and after shipping on both consoles I think I made like $200.

I'll never do that again. What a waste of my time it was.

I sold one the other day for $595 on eBay. Considering 10 million units will ship, play with people's expectations and act like it's a Wii situation. I think there will be enough on shelves, so do it NOW.

Yes, I think $200+ profit expectations should definitely be lowered given what current pre-orders are selling for.

There's only going to be more competition/undercutting amongst resellers once the console releases.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I'm considering selling mine as well. When I preoredered it, I had every intention of playing it, but I'm going to be really busy until the start of the new year probably, and I'm not terribly excited about any of the launch games.

I'll probably offer it to friend's first, for cost, unless they do end up selling online for ridiculous amounts. In the end though, I'm so lazy that I'll probably let it sit unopened for a few months rather than trying to scalp it.

 

[Bookoo]

People are obviously free to disagree, but I am admittedly frustrated by the stubbornness and lack of empathy some exhibit.

I think the lack of empathy comes with the product being flipped. These are consumer electronics, so I find it difficult to feel that bad about it.

I am not trying to flip food and water after some natural disaster.

 

[LuchaShaq]

What are the risks in selling an amazon delivery address change on eBay?

Modern ebay has zero seller protection. They can just lie and say you sent an empty boz and paypal will just jack the money from your account and tell you to fuck off/die.

 

[SonicXtreme]

i wonder how the accessories will sell moreso than the systems. accessories are cheap, incredibly easy to ship, and most importantly, you can buy tons of them at a time. i remember leaving best buy once with like $350 worth of wii motes and nunchucks. they all sold for about 80% over list price, so i made way more off hawking those than hard to find systems.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I think the lack of empathy comes with the product being flipped. These are consumer electronics, so I find it difficult to feel that bad about it.

I am not trying to flip food and water after some natural disaster.

That's fine. But we can conclude from your post that not all capitalistic endeavors are inherently defensible, which is at least some common ground.

 

[Radec]

I need a ps4 for my friend, anyone have an extra with delivery date changed to beyond the 16th?

 

[BronsonLee]

Modern ebay has zero seller protection. They can just lie and say you sent an empty boz and paypal will just jack the money from your account and tell you to fuck off/die.

In most cases yes, but eBay will still protect the seller.

For example, I sold a PSP Go. Get a message a few days later saying it won't charge and they want a refund. Argue with them about it (it eventually comes out that they left it charging and it sparked or something), they file a claim, eBay sides with them.

I get the item, it doesn't match the serial number I have, so it's a switcheroo. I notify eBay and appeal. Claim is reversed.

 

[The Lamp]

I'm starting to find this defensiveness tiring. Again, I'm trying to just argue from a nuanced position without condemning individuals as monsters as to why some people find the practice distasteful. I'm taking care not to make any outlandish comparisons or speak in moral absolutes. There's no reason for these lazy platitudes wherein we just say "the early bird gets the worm" and call it a day concluding that I have no leg to stand on.

To get straight to the point, I think chalking up not immediately preordering to "improper planning" is insanely disingenuous, and I've argued why more than once. To reiterate again, I (and I want this to be read as a more general and hypothetical "I" to avoid lazy personal responses) don't buy things just to sell them for a profit. When preorders go live, I'm not going to sign up immediately just because I know I can sell it if I don't want it. I'm going to claim a preorder only because at that point, I intend to buy and keep it. That's just how I am (and again, how many people are).

There's this notion that preparation is needed for this hectic period, but what some believe -- and this is clearly true even if it's not the main reason for shortages -- is that the lack of availability for people that genuinely want a product can at least in part be attributed solely to other consumers seeking to profit off of this demographic. Now, again, you don't have to conclude that these people are committing an egregious ethical violation, but I don't understand why there is a complete disconnect in terms of understanding why some are less than thrilled at the practice.

When the argument is "you have no one to blame but yourself for being beaten to the punch, you could have also preordered just like the fine upstanding person that clicked a button on a website because they figured they could make easy money doing so," I'm kind of at a loss when there is no willingness to understand at all why regular consumers aren't altogether eager to applaud that practice. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, nor am I banning people who scalp. I'm not even asking admins for negative tags. I'm just having a discussion and speaking my piece.

People are obviously free to disagree, but I am admittedly frustrated by the stubbornness and lack of empathy some exhibit.

Well about preorders: Amazon preorders are totally free and you can cancel at anytime.

 

[ronco2000]

I hope so. I hope these scalpers are stuck with their consoles and end up losing money.

I'm sure they are smart enough to return those unopened items.

 

[emb]

But then again... dat new console smell. It can't be understated. It's been a decade since I owned a console and I've been so looking forward to this day. @__@ Life is too short, life is precious. These moments are what we will remember when we get older. I still remember the first days of owning an NES, SNES, PS1 at launch when I was a kid. Is it worth a few hundred bucks to not be a part of that launch experience?

This pretty much catches my feelings on it. Money would be nice and whatever, but unless you're too broke to get the PS4 in the first place, not all that exciting. If it's your only preorder, then absolutely keep it. The excitement is worth it, 100%.

I also don't really enjoy the idea of mixing a hobby I enjoy with business. I hate seeing my friends find deals on old games/systems, and only get excited because they can score a few bucks. I'm happy for them, but it's such a waste of a good deal. Keep it or pass it on to someone that can appreciate it.

With regards to new releases though, a big portion of those that missed out have no excuse. They didn't preorder, it's their own fault. I do sympathize with parents that didn't know about this early enough though. I don't really have strong feelings one way or another about reselling/scalping.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Well about preorders: Amazon preorders are totally free and you can cancel at anytime.

I've addressed this:

I don't think pre-ordering mitigates every concern. Not everyone knows months in advance whether they're going to want/be able to afford such an expensive object. And if one's response to that is "you preorder it anyway as there's no risk," then I think it kind of undermines -- at least in my mind -- what preordering is intended to do. I view preorders more as a commitment to purchase as opposed to "I might want it so I better preorder." Now, you may disagree, but I think that if every single person who was even remotely considering buying an item up for preorder followed through, the preorder system would be useless.

 

[coldfoot]

If you dislike scalpers, blame the people who are willing to buy from them. If there was no demand, there would be no scalpers.

 

[Phades]

[...]But then you find a unit, you get up to the checkout, the person scans it and says "that'll be $600 plus tax." You argue that the PS4 only costs $400, show them Sony's website, and they respond "that was before inventory was scarce." Are you on board with a major retailer selling the unit for well above MSRP?

Isn't that similar to how airlines and some hotels operate with reservations and ticket sales? This in turn spawned other things like priceline and other 3rd party services.

 

[smr00]

You might not be able to find them in every store in the next 2-3 weeks but i guarantee by middle december you will be able to order them online and find them in stores.

This is 2013 not 2005-2006. Production is much more ramped up. Do not over pay for a PS4, be patient and just wait a few weeks and check stores every couple of days. Sadly people have 0 patience and people are going to pay $600,700+ for one. What do i personally think of resellers? I think people who get 1-2 and resell for maybe $100-200 more is standing on the line but the scumbags who run around and pre-order from 10 different stores and get like 30 of them to resell for $800+? They are shitty, shitty scumbags.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

If you dislike scalpers, blame the people who are willing to buy from them. If there was no demand, there would be no scalpers.

This is such a terrible argument. "If you dislike cartels pushing dangerous drugs onto the streets, blame drug addicts who are willing to buy the product."

 

[JinjoUnchained]

As someone who does think scalping is immoral, here's my perspective on it:

What makes scalping generally wrong is that it's parasitic. End-consumers are interchangeable; Joe Consumer who buys his PS4 from Best Buy is expected to get about as much out of it as Jane Consumer who buys her PS4 from a scalper because Best Buy was sold out. There's no efficiency gain from scalping, which is not the case for the other situations people sometimes bring up as analogies, like retail sales in general. It's pure rent-seeking from the scalpers, and they're extracting this rent just because they were in line first. But lines are inefficient themselves, relative to something like lotteries, and so it's all just perpetuating a pretty terrible way of distributing systems. Worse, scalpers are extracting rent entirely from end-consumers, rather than big businesses or similar. Most people have no problem understanding that this sort of parasitic activity is wrong when big banks do it.

That's an excellent economic critique of "re-selling" or "scalping", which ever term you choose. Allow me to make an economic counter-argument in favor of re-selling a launch window console. The premium that so-called scalpers are making for re-selling their pre-orders is a return on investment for bearing the risk of early adoption.

The secondary market for a launch window console exists because of scarcity and the inherent discrepancy between the value and price of such a product. At launch, the supply will never be lower, the price will never be higher, and the value proposition will never be worse (small game library, early hardware problems, glitchy OS). This means that early adopters are paying a premium to experience new technology in an immature state. Because of the supply constraints, the longer early adopters wait to commit to buying a launch day console, the higher premium they will have to pay. The first people to pre-order a PS4 had the least amount of information about the console, yet risked their money anyway. Consider the amount they put up for those pre-orders as a sunk cost (like a retainer to a lawyer or an ante in poker). The possibility of re-selling your pre-order on the secondary market is an economic hedge necessary against the possibility that the system will have major problems at launch (i.e. Red Ring of Death, missing features, bad ports) and these people will lose their investment. Why else would people pre-order an expensive system that we know next to nothing about except carefully worded corporate speak?

I would argue that the people who can't find a launch console because of re-sellers or scalpers in reality are just not willing to pay the premium for early adoption and should wait for the launch period to end. But, of course, people have unlimited wants and limited means. Many want the benefits of early adoption without taking the risks, so they vilify scalpers.

Once again, excellent post on your part. This is just my two cents as an economic rebuttal.

 

[oSoLucky]

I'm starting to find this defensiveness tiring. Again, I'm trying to just argue from a nuanced position without condemning individuals as monsters as to why some people find the practice distasteful. I'm taking care not to make any outlandish comparisons or speak in moral absolutes. There's no reason for these lazy platitudes wherein we just say "the early bird gets the worm" and call it a day concluding that I have no leg to stand on.

To get straight to the point, I think chalking up not immediately preordering to "improper planning" is insanely disingenuous, and I've argued why more than once. To reiterate again, I (and I want this to be read as a more general and hypothetical "I" to avoid lazy personal responses) don't buy things just to sell them for a profit. When preorders go live, I'm not going to sign up immediately just because I know I can sell it if I don't want it. I'm going to claim a preorder only because at that point, I intend to buy and keep it. That's just how I am (and again, how many people are).

There's this notion that preparation is needed for this hectic period, but what some believe -- and this is clearly true even if it's not the main reason for shortages -- is that the lack of availability for people that genuinely want a product can at least in part be attributed solely to other consumers seeking to profit off of this demographic. Now, again, you don't have to conclude that these people are committing an egregious ethical violation, but I don't understand why there is a complete disconnect in terms of understanding why some are less than thrilled at the practice.

When the argument is "you have no one to blame but yourself for being beaten to the punch, you could have also preordered just like the fine upstanding person that clicked a button on a website because they figured they could make easy money doing so," I'm kind of at a loss when there is no willingness to understand at all why regular consumers aren't altogether eager to applaud that practice. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, nor am I banning people who scalp. I'm not even asking admins for negative tags. I'm just having a discussion and speaking my piece.

People are obviously free to disagree, but I am admittedly frustrated by the stubbornness and lack of empathy some exhibit.

Well said. I got preorders for both of my consoles in the days following E3, so I have both available. I, however, have a LOT of friends who have been on deployment all summer/fall and weren't able to get preorders in before they were completely sold out. Turns out that satellite internet in the middle of the Persian Gulf being used by 5000 people all at once doesn't lend to the fastest speed. Thankfully, from all sources in my area, most stores seem to be getting a lot of PS4s over their preorder quota(can't say the same for the XB1).

I think trying to resell consoles in this day is a bad move. Just look at everything distribution-wise that we have heard thus far. This topic always makes me remember the guy with the moving truck full of Wii Us that ended up having to sell them at value, and making nothing out of the wasted effort.

 

[Wynnebeck]

That's fine. But we can conclude from your post that not all capitalistic endeavors are inherently defensible, which is at least some common ground.

I will agree with this. I had a PS4 pre-order that had been around since mid-July when I thought money was plentiful. Come 4 months later and that situation has reversed. I wanted to flip my pre-order so someone could get a PS4 and I could get a little extra on the backend which would really help me out. Does that mindset make me the scum of the Earth as numerous comments in this thread keep vehemently shouting out? I don't think so. Now, if you were buying the PS4s just to turn around and flip them with no intention of buying one for yourself, then I could see the ire.

 

[BronsonLee]

All I know about this is that y'all probably won't make a ton of money at launch. Sony seems to have a good supply of these, enough that I'm about 80% sure I can just stroll into a certain store on launch and get one.

So lower those expectations. I'm your target demo and I don't need you yet!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

That's an excellent economic critique of "re-selling" or "scalping", which ever term you choose. Allow me to make an economic counter-argument in favor of re-selling a launch window console. The premium that so-called scalpers are making for re-selling their pre-orders is a return on investment for bearing the risk of early adoption.

The secondary market for a launch window console exists because of scarcity and the inherent discrepancy between the value and price of such a product. At launch, the supply will never be lower, the price will never be higher, and the value proposition will never be worse (small game library, early hardware problems, glitchy OS). This means that early adopters are paying a premium to experience new technology in an immature state. Because of the supply constraints, the longer early adopters wait to commit to buying a launch day console, the higher premium they will have to pay. The first people to pre-order a PS4 had the least amount of information about the console, yet risked their money anyway. Consider the amount they put up for those pre-orders as a sunk cost (like a retainer to a lawyer or an ante in poker). The possibility of re-selling your pre-order on the secondary market is an economic hedge necessary against the possibility that the system will have major problems at launch (i.e. Red Ring of Death, missing features, bad ports) and these people will lose their investment. Why else would people pre-order an expensive system that we know next to nothing about except carefully worded corporate speak?

I would argue that the people who can't find a launch console because of re-sellers or scalpers in reality are just not willing to pay the premium for early adoption and should wait for the launch period to end. But, of course, people have unlimited wants and limited means. Many want the benefits of early adoption without taking the risks, so they vilify scalpers.

Once again, excellent post on your part. This is just my two cents as an economic rebuttal.

I've bolded what I take issue with. Not that I'm fan of ticket scalpers either necessarily, but I do note that there is some risk on their part. If nobody's paying what I'm asking for tickets to the concert that's in town, I have to aggressively keep lowering my asking price up to the point of the event, lest I just eat the cost entirely. I click pre-order from Amazon, I'm taking on no risk. I can cancel at any point before shipment. After shipment, I have 30 - 60 days to return it. I think to act as though this is some bold gambit that is deserving of profit is incredibly insincere given what we are discussing.

 

[Rafterman]

This is such a terrible argument. "If you dislike cartels pushing dangerous drugs onto the streets, blame drug addicts who are willing to buy the product."

Speaking of terrible arguments. Are you really comparing drug cartels to console flippers?

 

[commish]

This is such a terrible argument. "If you dislike cartels pushing dangerous drugs onto the streets, blame drug addicts who are willing to buy the product."

This analogy doesn't work at all. All scalpers are doing on capitalizing on people who don't want to wait a few weeks to pay retail. The premium people pay is basically an "urgency tax". Your analogy to drugs doesn't really make sense.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Speaking of terrible arguments. Are you really comparing drug cartels to console flippers?

Ugh... I was taking an argument to its logical conclusion. I'm generally not a terribly big fan of analogies as it invites lazy criticism, but I was calling out the notion that I find it to be a weak argument to suggest that sale or resale is inherently justifiable just because there is demand for the product in question.

 

[Phades]

I think to act as though this is some bold gambit that is deserving of profit is incredibly insincere given what we are discussing.

The practice isn't that different from insider trading on the stock market. Create scarcity while riding on the coatails of someone's product, maybe even hyping it up a little before others who aren't in the know get in on the deal and sell it to everyone else who bit the line behind you and going short. No value added in the process and just using everyone else involved. But hey they didn't have to do it, so its fine right? =/

 

[commish]

Ugh... I was taking an argument to its logical conclusion. I'm generally not a terribly big fan of analogies as it invites lazy criticism, but I was calling out the notion that I find it to be a weak argument to suggest that sale or resale is inherently justifiable just because there is demand for the product in question.

It IS justifiable when the product in question is not limited. If we are talking about concert tix, then sure - scalpers prevent people from going and drive up costs for everyone. Once the concert happens, it's over forever. If we are talking about a product that is basically unlimited, and people are merely paying a premium to have it sooner, then I really find it hard to criticize scalpers.

 

[espher]

I dislike scalpers and folks like the people on RFD because they create an artificial shortage and attempt to profit off of it. I similarly hate companies who create an artificial shortage to try and flip a profit off their goods.

You can play the "supply and demand" card all you want, but the people that buy 80% of a city's stock, for example, to garner a profit, or who buy all of the stock at a clearance or promotion solely for the purpose of resale drive me batty. Similarly, you can't play the 'risk' card, as there is little to no 'sunk cost' or risk as you could say there is for a concert scalper, because there is no firm sales deadline beyond which they lose all of their investment (you have a return window, after all), so I don't buy any of the arguments about risk or hedging.

Of course, I can't do much about it except not buy their stock myself, and I didn't in the case of a Wii. It sucked for the first half year (and I was not happy with Nintendo for not being able to keep up with supply), but I did eventually secure it at MSRP.

ymmv.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

This analogy doesn't work at all. All scalpers are doing on capitalizing on people who don't want to wait a few weeks to pay retail. The premium people pay is basically an "urgency tax". Your analogy to drugs doesn't really make sense.

I've already explained the reasoning behind the analogy, but I take issue with your explanation for the rationale behind the action. My issue the entire time is in reaching common ground in terms of understanding how it is that they are able to capitalize on people in this fashion. I think many of us would object less to the practice if resale units came from some entirely separate pool of available units. It's not like I just had these units sitting around, and if someone is impatient and wants to pay a premium for it, why shouldn't I profit? I had the unit sitting around because I bought it from the very same retail space that other consumers tried to purchase from, and now I think I'm entitled to profit because I purchased first.

 

[Vandiger]

I don't mind the scalpers unless they start gobble up multiple units to profit from as shown in the idiot bragging pics I've seen. I might consider selling mine if the demand is so high like near Wii levels.

 

[NullPointer]

If you dislike scalpers, blame the people who are willing to buy from them. If there was no demand, there would be no scalpers.

Scalping increases that scarcity and the prices that go with it. Neither of these things is a benefit for anybody except the scalper.

 

[robochimp]

As a once pretty heavy ebay seller, I'm bearish on either of the consoles.

Sony has stated time and again that they will have a lot of units out there.

Xbone seems more supply constrained with all the cboat rumors and the pairing down of launch countries, there might be more profit to be had, but people might just buy a PS4 instead

All big releases are all coming out on current gen.

Last gen was a much bigger jump in technology.

From a sellers perspective there is too much risk. What happens when your buyer says the console broke 3 months from now? Guess who is getting a charge back from paypal?

Way too much work for $100-150

Personally I see this market crashing immediately. Selling preorders is probably your best bet.

 

[Alienous]

You scalpers have scared the shit out of me.

As of my last minute pre-order, I am officially on the train.

 

[Phades]

It IS justifiable when the product in question is not limited. If we are talking about concert tix, then sure - scalpers prevent people from going and drive up costs for everyone. Once the concert happens, it's over forever. If we are talking about a product that is basically unlimited, and people are merely paying a premium to have it sooner, then I really find it hard to criticize scalpers.

In this instance, there will always be other concerts (shipments of product). The difference ends up being there isn't a persisting force of scalping going on continously creating an artificial market and thus an artificial increase in production to meet that market demand and instead just sniping a high volume season creating short term scarcity over a corporatized and over capitialized holiday season that people follow religously...

 

[coldfoot]

This is such a terrible argument. "If you dislike cartels pushing dangerous drugs onto the streets, blame drug addicts who are willing to buy the product."

But they are completely different? Drugs are illegal and the criminal element is why people dislike cartels. Consumer electronics isn't like that and Walmart employees don't go around murdering Best Buy employees to be exclusively selling a product.

You don't NEED a game console let alone a next-gen console. People should learn to be patient. I have no problem with impatient people paying a bit more.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Wouldn't be a console launch without scalpers. It's unfortunate but I just don't see any way to prevent it.

 

[JinjoUnchained]

I've bolded what I take issue with. Not that I'm fan of ticket scalpers either necessarily, but I do note that there is some risk on their part. If nobody's paying what I'm asking for tickets to the concert that's in town, I have to aggressively keep lowering my asking price up to the point of the event, lest I just eat the cost entirely. I click pre-order from Amazon, I'm taking on no risk. I can cancel at any point before shipment. After shipment, I have 30 - 60 days to return it. I think to act as though this is some bold gambit that is deserving of profit is incredibly insincere given what we are discussing.

With certain suppliers, the amount put down on a pre-order is refundable and is not a sunk cost. With many others it is not refundable or is only refundable as store credit. So there is a risk of losing your investment. That's the whole point of a down payment, right? To give consumers some skin in the game so they don't want to cancel their pre-order. The early adopters then hedge that risk with a secondary market. Once again, if there were no potential reward to early adoption risk, why would anyone ever pre-order? I say if one wants to vilify the secondary market, instead of railing on so-called scalpers, they could properly place the blame on console manufacturers and retailers. Those two parties could eliminate the secondary market if they were completely transparent about their products (manufacturers) or offered some economic benefit to pre-ordering early AND keeping your pre-order (retailers); then there wouldn't be any risk in early adoption and no need for a secondary market hedge.

Also, I resent your accusation that an honest opinion that differs from yours' is insincere. My post was a counter-argument to an anti-scalper analysis that I was careful to praise, even in disagreement. Not everything has to be a flame war, we can have different opinions without questioning each others' character.