Support NeoGAF

[gundamkyoukai]

IF these .5 systems turn out true, they won't be upgraded as in having faster/overclocked hardware and more memory. It's pointless to release a 360 or ps3 with slightly faster specs since it would never be taken advantage of, especially with faster hardware coming out next year.

Not sure what Jeff is implying they are since he missed my question earlier. If it's just extra support for media and such, it'll hardly be a big deal or disruption.

Yeah i know .
Which why i said it seem like a waste to do all of that \ it not a major disruption.

they will care when it's a replacement for the older consoles with a cheaper price.

People will care about the price drop\games more than anything else not that the new PS3 can do AR etc etc .

 

[DieH@rd]

Put me also in the "dont belive in faster .5 hw" camp. All they need is to remake OS, put few more connectors at the back, and their boxes will be good for media consumption.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Well you going have to ask jeff about that .
Since i also think that no one going to care about what upgrades these old systems have.

Let's just drop that silly idea altogether instead. At best, we're going to get another modest revision that's going to help with further cost reductions and the increased focus on entertainment services. No company will release a cheap, more powerful box with revolutionary new features this close to their next proper efforts launching - and they are launching next year or in early 2014 at the latest, unless some of you think the devkits would be sent out three years prior to launch. Rumors are always a dime a dozen and claiming that there's some truth in all or even most of them is ridiculous and, looking back at previous platform launches, obviously wrong.

The sweet spot for the PS2 was $199, I don't see $129 in PS3's future anytime soon.

I see this bandied around very often. You know, the fact that PS2 achieved the vast majority of its sales at $199 or lower, and that somehow that's also going to become true for PS3. It's just an overly simplistic way of looking at things.

Sure, every price drop brings a welcome boost to sales, but the idea that $199 is somehow this magical threshold at which masses go crazy after a console is very naive (it sure worked out well for GameCube, for instance; but don't get me wrong, I used to believe in that, too). The PS2 sold the most at $199 or lower because of a myriad of overlapping circumstances - first of all, it hit that price point relatively early, just a year and a half after its US launch; at that point it's already accumulated a fine library of must-have exclusives (FFX, MGS2, DMC, GT3, GTAIII...) and it became obvious that the other systems wouldn't be able to catch up to its significant lead (i.e. its third party support). That's what made a huge amount of fence-sitters jump in (and urge even some GC and Xbox owners to get it as a second system), the price point just sweetened the deal. Later the more casual crowd joined in (especially in Europe) after the introduction of Eye Toy, SingStar, Buzz, Guitar Hero and... Well, you know the story.

PS3 is certainly no PS2, and it won't become one in its post-retirement period either. The $199 ship has sailed, and all we'll see with further price reductions are temporary and modest boosts to sales.

 

[Raoh]

Let's just drop that silly idea altogether instead. At best, we're going to get another modest revision that's going to help with further cost reductions and the increased focus on entertainment services. No company will release a cheap, more powerful box with revolutionary new features this close to their next proper efforts launching - and they are launching next year or in early 2014 at the latest, unless some of you think the devkits would be sent out three years prior to launch. Rumors are always a dime a dozen and claiming that there's some truth in all or even most of them is ridiculous and, looking back at previous platform launches, obviously wrong.




I see this bandied around very often. You know, the fact that PS2 achieved the vast majority of its sales at $199 or lower, and that somehow that's also going to become true for PS3. It's just an overly simplistic way of looking at things.

Sure, every price drop brings a welcome boost to sales, but the idea that $199 is somehow this magical threshold at which masses go crazy after a console is very naive (it sure worked out well for GameCube, for instance; but don't get me wrong, I used to believe in that, too). The PS2 sold the most at $199 or lower because of a myriad of overlapping circumstances - first of all, it hit that price point relatively early, just a year and a half after its US launch; at that point it's already accumulated a fine library of must-have exclusives (FFX, MGS2, DMC, GT3, GTAIII...) and it became obvious that the other systems wouldn't be able to catch up to its significant lead (i.e. its third party support). That's what made a huge amount of fence-sitters jump in (and urge even some GC and Xbox owners to get it as a second system), the price point just sweetened the deal. Later the more casual crown joined in (especially in Europe) after the introduction of Eye Toy, SingStar, Buzz, Guitar Hero and... Well, you know the story.

PS3 is certainly no PS2, and it won't become one in its post-retirement period either. The $199 ship has sailed, and all we'll see with further price reductions are temporary and modest boosts to sales.

The bolded part is where I'm sticking with $199. A hundred dollar drop is huge. $299 to $199, plus a packed in game.

But the leap between the ps2 and ps3 is what keeps the ps3 going $129 anytime soon. Wifi, bluetooth, blu ray and a hard drive just doesn't add up to $129 to keep it profitable or at least in the black. Apple tv doesn't even have bluetooth to keep the cost down and the original 360 had no wifi or hdmi.

Price is a huge factor still. comparing the ps3 to the 360 early on showed huge differences. like above hardware features mentioned, there were still other things like linux, browser, etc. the 360 had no wifi, no hdmi etc but the biggest thing people cared about was price. Didn't matter if it had less features and bells and whistles, price made it appealing.

Which brings up the question I never get answered. Would sony do well to ditch the PS3 at PS4 launch the way Microsoft ditched the Xbox at the 360 launch?

Try and continue to make the ps3 profitible or cut losses and reboot?

With the state of the economy in general, in japan and especially at the sony offices, dropping from $299 to $129, they are better off just rebooting as all that price would do is put them back to a loss per console sold again.

 

[Mindlog]

Now understand that both Microsoft and Sony will have Modern browsers with full HTML5 support by Sept-Oct 2012 to support what? They plan to make money how?

MS has been talking to cable providers trying to get IPTV done for years.

End-around, Microsoft & Sony sell their boxes directly to cable providers. The providers then lease these boxes as premium alternatives their current stable of terrible DVRs and set top boxes.

 

[Shikoro]

Holy Crap.
Orbis / PS4 is going to be BEAST.

If you know something, please tell us. We're desperate. XD

 

[Reallink]

I think this .5 stuff needs a dedicated topic with a neatly summarized OP assuming it's not pure bullshit. I have no idea what's going on with all this jumbled in the PS4 thread.

 

[Raoh]

I think this .5 stuff needs a dedicated topic with a neatly summarized OP assuming it's not pure bullshit. I have no idea what's going on with all this jumbled in the PS4 thread.

yeh I'm jumping in here and there but I don't want another thread until we have something concrete.

Its cool to peruse through for fun but after the bullshit E3 2012 rumors, all it is is fun and am not taking anything seriously.

I know Jeff was vindicated a bit in the ps3 browser thread so he at least has my listening ear, plus the stuff he posts is actually interesting.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Price is a huge factor still. comparing the ps3 to the 360 early on showed huge differences. like above hardware features mentioned, there were still other things like linux, browser, etc. the 360 had no wifi, no hdmi etc but the biggest thing people cared about was price. Didn't matter if it had less features and bells and whistles, price made it appealing.

Or maybe they were just features most people didn't care about, wi-fi obviously excluded.

But you're right that the price is a huge factor - when the difference is that big (it was $200-$300 at first) and there's just not all that much to justify the extra investment. I'm talking about the difference in the base experience (Live was far ahead of PSN at that time), but primarily the games, and in its first few years PS3 was struggling to come up with a strong title that would compete with the 360's best (and remember that back then many games that are on both platforms now, like BioShock, still haven't reached the PS3). For many MGS 4 was the first such release, and it came out in mid 2008.

Still, the price is definitely not what matters the most. Xbox 360 was at $199 since the end of 2008, yet the $50 more expensive Wii kept destroying it for years. Also, Live is a paid service (the subscription fee has actually increased), but it's not a big hampering factor against the free PSN.

Which brings up the question I never get answered. Would sony do well to ditch the PS3 at PS4 launch the way Microsoft ditched the Xbox at the 360 launch?

No, PS3 is profitable now and PS4 probably won't be at first. It's going to keep selling (as will the 360), I just don't expect it to have PS2's post-PS3 performance.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I do not believe Jeff on this one.

Why? Well, when they switched to the new SoC for the current 360 Slim, they discovered that the chip was more effecient (hence faster in some ways). They actually had to spend a LOT of R&D money to "slow" the chip down to be exactly the same as the original Xenos+Xenon, because they broke game compatibility. I don't see either console manufacturer wanting to spend a lot of R&D money on these aging boxes anymore, as evidenced by the reluctance to invest hundreds of millions into another die shrink for further price reduction.

3 months and we will see <grin>. Best I can gather, this has been planned since 2010 thus their reluctance to invest hundreds of millions into another die shrink for further price reduction. Track back from July 2011 when the digitimes rumor surfaced. That's when contracts and designs would have been settled. The designs themselves and work to see what had to be done to emulate a PS3 or Xbox360 using the same SOC, Emulation software to determine if feasible was at least 6-9 months in advance. The Sony 1PPC4SPU wafer patent was published Dec 2010 and submitted to the patent office months before. The Microsoft powerpoint if nothing else shows thinking YEARS ahead of implementation.

Walk in my shoes, read what I read and you will come to the same conclusion. I am not any smarter than you or KageMaru or a number of others in this thread, I've just spent more time reading and thinking....the conclusions are obvious if you have the background information.

EDIT:

http://controversy.typepad.com/vide...nfinity-shown-behind-closed-doors-at-ces.html

"According to reliable sources, the Xbox Infinity (which has a slight chance of being called Xbox 365 when it launches) has in fact been revealed to major developers at the 2012 CES! The reason these developers have not mentioned anything to the public or the media is because the developers have signed a contract preventing the console from being discussed publicly. And from what I'm told, the Xbox Infinity is still on schedule to be released in time for Christmas of 2012 in North America. I'm looking forward to seeing the Xbox Infinity in action at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo!"

Xbox365 is the XTV Xbox 361 and is scheduled for Christmas season 2012 in North America

365 is indicating the same that PS3.5 indicates, newer hardware. HDMI pass-thru, low power modes and newer hardware is going to require emulation even if it has 3 PPC processors.

My speculation is based on economics, would it be cheaper for both Microsoft and Sony to use exactly the same SOC....how much would it cost to include 6 plus SPUs VS. the savings in one SOC for both. Both would have to emulate Xbox360 and PS3 respectively in any case. Considering how tiny SPUs are at 32nm, AMD producing everything but the 1PPC+4SPU wafers and IBM assembling the AMD parts with IBM manufactured PPC & SPUs = Oban and economical. I'll repeat one other point; the Digitimes rumor of a PS4 (it has to be a PS3.5) being released Christmas 2012 with a Kinect interface occurred July 2011 and the same month Microsoft registered the domain names microsoft-sony.com and sony-microsoft.com.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Which brings up the question I never get answered. Would sony do well to ditch the PS3 at PS4 launch the way Microsoft ditched the Xbox at the 360 launch?

Try and continue to make the ps3 profitible or cut losses and reboot?

With the state of the economy in general, in japan and especially at the sony offices, dropping from $299 to $129, they are better off just rebooting as all that price would do is put them back to a loss per console sold again.

Sony will keep on selling PS3 also long as they can make profit on it.
Truth is i don't think they will be able to go under 150 maybe even 200 and make money from it thanks to how high the yen is .
Sony should be putting all of there effort into PS4 , i not saying they got to lose allot of money or anything like that but at least come really close MS spec wise.

 

[jeff_rigby]

yeh I'm jumping in here and there but I don't want another thread until we have something concrete.

Its cool to peruse through for fun but after the bullshit E3 2012 rumors, all it is is fun and am not taking anything seriously.

I know Jeff was vindicated a bit in the ps3 browser thread so he at least has my listening ear, plus the stuff he posts is actually interesting.

I agree and full vindication for all my predictions will come at the same time as the new PS3.5 and Xbox365. It's going to be interesting. I'm getting a PS3.5 day one.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I agree and full vindication for all my predictions will come at the same time as the new PS3.5 and Xbox365. It's going to be interesting. I'm getting a PS3.5 day one.

So I suppose in 3 months you're getting a tag, either way.

 

[Goldrusher]

There will be no such thing as a PS3.5.

 

[BruiserBear]

I agree and full vindication for all my predictions will come at the same time as the new PS3.5 and Xbox365. It's going to be interesting. I'm getting a PS3.5 day one.

What do you mean by 3.5?

 

[CoffeeExpress]

PS3.5

Ps3.5? so late into the generation with ps4 around the corner, I just cant believe it.

What I can believe in a 'super slimed' ps3 (akin to the late slim ps2 model) with added html5 functionality/50 dollar price drop towards the build up towards the launch of ps4. There would be too much confusion if Sony were to make a big marketing push on a product that has reached the end of its shelf life with its successor on the way, so I doubt it's gonna get any major attention.

 

[TouchMyBox]

But all the ".5" people were calling current gen xbox 1.5 and whatnot...

So wouldn't that make this the PS3?

 

[Chittagong]

Where did these .5 rumours start, and is there any substantiation other than the 361 mention for them? I am just not buying the idea of a new console a year before a new console. And consumers don't care or worse about Mini Displayport, and even I as a fairly advanced consumer don't know what on earth is HDMI passthrough.

Shrinks I can believe, but no major new features or OS surprises this year

 

[onQ123]

'PS3.5' , 'XBOX 360 Plus' would you upgrade?


I talked about the PS3.5 & Xbox 360 plus stuff last year & people thought I was crazy.

 

[KageMaru]

I agree and full vindication for all my predictions will come at the same time as the new PS3.5 and Xbox365. It's going to be interesting. I'm getting a PS3.5 day one.

You still haven't explained what you expect these .5 systems to be.

Are you just not answering so IF it happens and it's just updated HDMI or extra ports you can still come out and say "SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS!!"

???

 

[Death Dealer]

The bolded part is where I'm sticking with $199. A hundred dollar drop is huge. $299 to $199, plus a packed in game.

Uh, you can buy a brand new PS3 for $250 right now. You can get one for only $200 if you don't mind factory refurbished.

I don't think a $199 PS3.5 is compelling at all. That's why I said they only way I see any serious interest in them is if they price it really low, like $129. Maybe that's not doable, but if not, I don't see the point to spending all of this money with a PS3.5 redesign, especially if they use custom AMD chips to emulate RSX and whatever other crazy things people are saying. It sounds awfully far fetched to me.

 

[Clear]

I think you're mistaken if you believe the split pool was a bigger issue than the shortage of memory in the PS3.

Insufficient memory = port doesn't run. Reduced performance due to having to circumvent issues relating to access latency depending on memory location and type is what we saw. Well that and obvious fill-rate issues when heavy transparency overdraw is required.

Do first party Sony exclusives seem to be impacted by memory constraints?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Yes, all I'm saying is I expect everything to be nicely balanced. As you know, PS3 also uses much faster technology for half of its memory pool, but the difference is offset by the clever use of eDRAM which solves the bandwidth problems.

The eDRAM also has its own set of problems, especially when it couldn't properly handle 720p all that easily. I think in the end, eDRAM was seen more as a problem creator rather than a problem solver for the 360. It's also pricey.

As another person mentioned, engines will be streaming tons of data in next-gen engines. Having fast RAM is going to be rather crucial for that.

If it's a matter of 8 GB of slow RAM vs. 2 GB of fast ram, it's two radically different approaches that I don't think will be very effective for either one.

I would at least hope that 2 GB of RAM will be DDR5 for both consoles, and then either an additional 2 GB of fast RAM or 4-6 GB of slower RAM. I'm not sure what would be more effective, graphically.

 

[Karak]

'PS3.5' , 'XBOX 360 Plus' would you upgrade?


I talked about the PS3.5 & Xbox 360 plus stuff last year & people thought I was crazy.

Thats odd. Original discussions were over 3 years ago around a .5, people have been talking about it even before then in various fashions. Seems weird you would be pointed out in a crowd of people who have discussed it.

 

[i-Lo]

Holy Crap.
Orbis / PS4 is going to be BEAST.

???? did you see some new info? or is this just a delayed reaction?

If you know something, please tell us. We're desperate. XD

Yea, I am wondering the same thing right now and it better not be something from pastebin.

 

[Pistolero]

Reads like a sarcastic remark to me...

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

The eDRAM also has its own set of problems, especially when it couldn't properly handle 720p all that easily.

It can handle 720p, just not 720p with MSAA (that can still be handled through tiling, and considering how many games are 720p with AA on the 360, and less than that on PS3, it seems to be a decent compromise), and the only problem is that there's not enough of it.

I think in the end, eDRAM was seen more as a problem creator rather than a problem solver for the 360.

You couldn't be more wrong on that, the 360 would be choked without it. As expensive as the eDRAM in the 360 was, it was still financially preferable to the alternative solutions, otherwise it wouldn't be there in the first place.

As another person mentioned, engines will be streaming tons of data in next-gen engines. Having fast RAM is going to be rather crucial for that.

Streaming has become so popular precisely because there's not enough memory in current gen machines. Change that and the need to stream in data lessens.

 

[Mindlog]

How does the NSZ-GS7 work with a hypothetical PS3.5? Is one a test for the other? Would the the NSZ-GS7 have a niche in a 3.5 market?

 

[jeff_rigby]

You still haven't explained what you expect these .5 systems to be.

Are you just not answering so IF it happens and it's just updated HDMI or extra ports you can still come out and say "SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS!!"

???

To be? I've already outlined the logic of their creation, the hardware they are likely to contain so I assume you mean the market niche.

PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware. This because adding HDMI pass-thru and low power modes would cost more in redesign costs than to start over. Possible because of economy of scale. (Same SOC used by both Microsoft and Sony)

Some of the following coming to the PS3 with software upgrade. PS3 will be killed when PS3.5 launches. It's Sony's choice in how much they fragment the PS3 market. I think they will bite the bullet and Disrupt fully fragment the PS3 except for games. This would have the non-game OS with more memory and much faster (not emulated) (see DieH@rds post above, Xbox360S refresh had to be slowed down). Game side 100% emulation with same memory limitation and speed. An indication of the difference will be different Firmware update files.

1) Cheaper
2) Google TV like XTV support. I doubt Android-GoogleTV as it's much less powerful. It's attraction are all the apps for Android. Sony will build and sell HTML5 apps.
3) DRM security, the PS3's security key is broken and a new design emulating a PS3 with a ARM CPU for Trustzone DRM works.
4) HDMI pass-thru and low power modes allow always connected always on or in hibernate mode. Gives us instant boot. Further, XTV and this design means always loaded Webkit and native libraries which with HTML5 apps gives us a browser desktop.
5) Free HTML5 apps when the OS is upgraded; Calender, Contact List, Skype, Google Talk Ultraviolet and more. Others will be in the Sony Store.
6) It will likely have 100 meg+ of free memory over what a PS3 has. This because a PS3.5 would require memory above 512 meg for emulation overhead. 2 stacked 512 meg ultrawide memory packages are in the SOC. The memory has enough bandwidth that XDR and eDRAM are not needed. Sony OS can use this memory but developers will be restricted to exactly old PS3 specs to not fragment the market.
a) Cross game chat possible between PS3.5 and PS4
b) Better more accurate Kinect like features
c) faster XMB from game, always loaded in and out of game OS routines
d) Chat/video/audio available everywhere
e) Popup display windows while in game like Vita.


Market Niche:

I'm guessing the PS3.5 will come bundled with a Kinect like Depth camera. Price with Motion camera $199.00. This will be the low priced entry supporting casual and AR games as well as XTV. It will be a must have for the family TV. PS4 will be 10X as powerful and $200+ more expensive. Both can use the same accessories so consumers can upgrade from PS3.5 to PS4.

An example; the current Head mounted LCD display is $800 because there is no economy of scale and no interface (LVDS + Power) in the PS3 to support it. LCD glasses made for a PS3.5 or PS4 will be about $200 and drop from there. Multiple new RF modes allow support for Cell phones and wireless LCD glasses.

How does the NSZ-GS7 work with a hypothetical PS3.5? Is one a test for the other? Would the the NSZ-GS7 have a niche in a 3.5 market?

No, it will work but the PS3.5 has interface hardware that allows cheaper LCD glasses. That interface is going to be standard across PS3.5, PS4, Xbox365 and Xbox720 which allows economy of scale and a cheaper LCD head mounted display with more features to sell AR games.

From BY3D:

Richard, We already use AES for HLS which is OK for most iOS devices but far too unsecure for most rights owners that require Playready. So we choose SmoothStreaming for that.
BUT, the results in term of feeling for the end user is very poor in Smoothstreaming compared to HLS. We tried everything: various GOP, various encoder, various streamers (even with
IIS Media Services). We put varnish cache in front of streamer, same thing. HLS is better than Smoothstreaming, there's no discution about it.

Moreover, the new devices that are coming in 2012 (Samsung TV, PS3 WebMAF, LG TV, etc...) will all have HLS and Playready capabilities. So why don't we use the better of the two
world : HLS + Playready !

So for us, it will be great to be able to unlock the DRM mecanism to use it with HLS...

What's your feeling about that ?

Developer - JavaScript, MVC, CSSPosted08/06/2012 (09:27)Agency/EmployerEurobase PeopleDescription
Developer - JavaScript, MVC, CSS

I am seeking a Developer with strong Javascript application development skills, with some experience in developing Playstation/PS3 media applications, to join a fast growing and game console development team.

Essential Skills

-Javascript application development, preferably with an MVC framework (Backbone, knockout, Angular etc.)
-Javascript unit testing, preferably using -Cucumber/Gherkin or TestSwarm
-CSS 3
-Good written and verbal communication skills in English

Desirable Skills

-Playstation Network/PS3 development with Webkit browser & WebMAF framework
-Movie playback on PS3 with DRM encoding
-Javascript framerworks, eg JQuery, Angular, browsercap
-Playstation Network
-Experience of consuming RESTful services and JSON
-Experience working with bug management and source control system

Mozilla Application Framework WebMAF framework Gecko was used in the OLPC Sugar interface and Google used it to create Picasa. Samsung TV uses QTwebkit and Sony uses a modified GTKwebkit.

The Mozilla application framework is a collection of cross-platform software components that make up the Mozilla applications. It was originally known as XPFE, an abbreviation of cross-platform front end. It was also known as XPToolkit. To avoid confusion, it is now best referred to as the Mozilla application framework.

While similar to generic cross-platform application frameworks like GTK+, Qt and wxWidgets, the intent is to provide a subset of cross-platform functionality suitable for building network applications like web browsers, leveraging the cross-platform functionality already built into the Gecko layout engine.

HAL HTTP Live Streaming

HTTP Live Streaming (also known as HLS) is an HTTP-based media streaming communications protocol implemented by Apple Inc. as part of their QuickTime X and iPhone software systems. It works by breaking the overall stream into a sequence of small HTTP-based file downloads, each download loading one short chunk of an overall potentially unbounded transport stream. As the stream is played, the client may select from a number of different alternate streams containing the same material encoded at a variety of data rates, allowing the streaming session to adapt to the available data rate. At the start of the streaming session, it downloads an extended M3U (m3u8) playlist containing the metadata for the various sub-streams which are available.

Since its requests use only standard HTTP transactions, HTTP Live Streaming is capable of traversing any firewall or proxy server that lets through standard HTTP traffic, unlike UDP-based protocols such as RTP. This also allows a Content delivery network to easily be implemented for any given stream.

Playready DRM from Microsoft.

Coming to the PS3 is support for HAL (DASH player) with Playready DRM. Sony can finally have commercial IPTV. Further this implies a player like Gstreamer is coming and HTML5 <video> should be supported. When, I've been predicting Sept 23 (Gnome Cycle). Also HTML5 apps are coming based on the Mozilla application framework. PS3 WebMAF can mean anything from a few WebMAF (HTML5) apps to a complete XMB and OS rewrite. FYI the VITA OS takes many ideas from the OLPC Sugar interface which also used Gecko.

Wowza Media server PS4 and Xbox 720 are going to serve media to Handhelds. It's possible the PS3.5 and Xbox365 also.

 

[KageMaru]

Insufficient memory = port doesn't run. Reduced performance due to having to circumvent issues relating to access latency depending on memory location and type is what we saw. Well that and obvious fill-rate issues when heavy transparency overdraw is required.

Do first party Sony exclusives seem to be impacted by memory constraints?

Right there is the flaw of all of your logic. How can we gauge if exclusives are impacted when we have no other version to compare them to? Besides how reliant many PS3 exclusives are on low res textures covered by detailed maps does indicate they are impacted by memory contraints.

Insufficient (amount I'm guessing you mean) memory does not = port doesn't run.

I'm not denying the split pool didn't cause some headaches as well, but from everything I've been told, read, heard, etc. the smaller overall pool due to the bloated OS was the bigger of the two issues.

To be? I've already outlined the logic of their creation, the hardware they are likely to contain so I assume you mean the market niche.

PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware.

LMAO. Not going to happen.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS3.5 LMAO. Not going to happen.

the new devices that are coming in 2012 (Samsung TV, PS3 WebMAF, LG TV, etc...) will all have HLS and Playready capabilities.

Edit: http://controversy.typepad.com/vide...nfinity-shown-behind-closed-doors-at-ces.html

"According to reliable sources, the Xbox Infinity (which has a slight chance of being called Xbox 365 when it launches) has in fact been revealed to major developers at the 2012 CES! The reason these developers have not mentioned anything to the public or the media is because the developers have signed a contract preventing the console from being discussed publicly. And from what I'm told, the Xbox Infinity is still on schedule to be released in time for Christmas of 2012 in North America. I'm looking forward to seeing the Xbox Infinity in action at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo!"

Xbox365 is the XTV Xbox 361 and is scheduled for Christmas season 2012 in North America

365 is indicating the same that PS3.5 indicates, newer hardware. HDMI pass-thru, low power modes and newer hardware is going to require emulation even if it has 3 PPC processors.

My speculation is based on economics, would it be cheaper for both Microsoft and Sony to use exactly the same SOC....how much would it cost to include 6 plus SPUs VS. the savings in one SOC for both. Both would have to emulate Xbox360 and PS3 respectively in any case. Considering how tiny SPUs are at 32nm, AMD producing everything but the 1PPC+4SPU wafers and IBM assembling the AMD parts with IBM manufactured PPC & SPUs = Oban and economical. I'll repeat one other point; the Digitimes rumor of a PS4 (it has to be a PS3.5) being released Christmas 2012 with a Kinect interface occurred July 2011 and the same month Microsoft registered the domain names microsoft-sony.com and sony-microsoft.com.

 

[Proelite]

Yea, I am wondering the same thing right now and it better not be something from pastebin.

Patience.

 

[bigtroyjon]

Digitimes rumor & http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39248378&postcount=1518

Rumor has the PS3.5 confused with a PS4.

Pretty much sums up your entire posting history that you would see a rumor that says Sony will be making 20 million "PS3.5" for 2012 and that doesn't set off your bullshit meter.

 

[KageMaru]

the new devices that are coming in 2012 (Samsung TV, PS3 WebMAF, LG TV, etc...) will all have HLS and Playready capabilities.

So you think Sony will release a new PS3 that will break compatibility with the hundreds of games?

 

[onQ123]

Patience.

ok I waited a few minutes now spill it!

is it above 2TFLOPS & have you hard anything about the programmable Logic & so on?

 

[M°°nblade]

So you think Sony will release a new PS3 that will break compatibility with the hundreds of games?

Why would it break compatibility?

Remember PSX (DVR).

 

[jeff_rigby]

So you think Sony will release a new PS3 that will break compatibility with the hundreds of games?

NO

Pretty much sums up your entire posting history that you would see a rumor that says Sony will be making 20 million "PS3.5" for 2012 and that doesn't set off your bullshit meter.

Yes, I called it as improbable at the time. "I doubt this rumor unless newer hardware is faster, uses less power, offers more features and is cheaper." PS3.5 is going to be faster (non-game), use less power, offers more features and is cheaper; it can sell 20 million the first year.

 

[systemfehler]

ok I waited a few minutes now spill it!

is it above 2TFLOPS & have you hard anything about the programmable Logic & so on?

I see the angry mob already lighting torches

 

[onQ123]

The part about the PS4/Xbox 720 being servers for your handhelds is the same thing I been thinking & I think it's going to be the biggest part of next gen also add the glasses & watch to the list of things that will be using the consoles as severs.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The part about the PS4/Xbox 720 being servers for your handhelds is the same thing I been thinking & I think it's going to be the biggest part of next gen also add the glasses & watch to the list of things that will be using the consoles as severs.

Yes, that was in the Microsoft Xbox 720 powerpoint also for the Xbox 720. No mention of the Xbox 365 having that feature. It's possible given extra memory and processors but it has to run a Java engine...don't know.

 

[grimshawish]

I do think a PS3+ (.5 isn't what I mean, it won't even be a half way house, just an 'expansion' type thing) would be a good idea. Especially for the industry.

Fully Backward Compatible and not to such a big change that normal PS3 games can't be upgraded to work with it. Add in some online updates/versions for a handful of 'PS3 Classics' and I think you'll have a nice amount of people buying the system.

It doesn't need to sell PS3 level sales, just extend the life of the system WITHOUT a massively expensive upgrade to a PS4.


At the moment the online support is a big thing, theres still room for growth, especially in how YOUR machine interacts with the online world. If these devices are on 24/7 theres a way that some 'cloud files' could be shared between peoples PS3+'s without the need for a big central server. Game files/screenshots/account info (trophies etc.) and other stuff that am sure smarter people than me can think of (map edits).

Obviously this would be limited but if certain files have are in high demand, Sony can easily prioritise their access and host it themselves.

Ofc they'd probably be some stuff like the voice recognition of Kinect; obviously were talking more powerful processing/graphics. Some sort of camera I wouldn't be surprised at, and in-game recording - which can be hosted (using similar business plan to youtube, but more dedicated and allowing people to pay for front page spots etc.)

Am sure theres other things that brainstorming can come up with. Especially community options.


Whatever happens I can't see a PS4 for a few years yet and I think it would be a real mistake to just let the PS3 flounder on - its life cycle needs to be stretched out. It might not even need to be more powerful for games, instead a DSi like upgrade.

 

[KageMaru]

Why would it break compatibility?

Because of this:

PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware.

Apparently Jeff thinks it's so easy to emulate the PS3.

NO

Ok then you need to elaborate on what you mean. Edit: By elaborate, I mean a simple post and not a wall of text including pointless bolded lines and a barrage of useless links.

It makes absolutely no sense to release a quarter step console (not even a half step) when they are releasing a new system next year. I can understand another revision, maybe a SoC of the current hardware if they can figure out the issues with the die size reduction, but there is no logic in releasing a new PS3 that uses new hardware.

 

[Clear]

Right there is the flaw of all of your logic. How can we gauge if exclusives are impacted when we have no other version to compare them to? Besides how reliant many PS3 exclusives are on low res textures covered by detailed maps does indicate they are impacted by memory contraints.

What? That's like saying that unless there's a PS360 version of a next-gen offering, you can't tell what advantages the new platforms offer! It should be self-evident what a piece of hardware's strengths and weaknesses are; like for instance the sort of create-and-share functionality offered by several PS3 exclusives. Where the "lack of memory" fails to prevent them having the full game running with a user-creation layer running simultaneously.

The fact is that the consensus best looking console titles of this gen are PS3 exclusives, despite its memory situation and less efficient (no eDram) GPU.

Insufficient (amount I'm guessing you mean) memory does not = port doesn't run.

If a game actually needs 6-8gb of space to run, good luck porting that to anything else without massive compromises being made. And if all that extra memory usage is being used to feed a monster GPU, then GPU throughput is still the biggest concern.

Check out some PC sites and see what performance gains are made by having a GPU with excessive amounts of VRam on major titles. 1080p framebuffers aren't that big.

I'm not denying the split pool didn't cause some headaches as well, but from everything I've been told, read, heard, etc. the smaller overall pool due to the bloated OS was the bigger of the two issues.

The differential in OS footprint was what, 50mb? When the PS3 system was at its most bloated, look at that as a ratio of the entire pool and you'll see how the magnitude of the problem will decline as the overall amount of available memory increases.

Its also a fallacy to see the division between the regions of PS3 memory as being rigid barriers, the problem was what happened to load/store cycle times when data was accessed in the wrong way by the wrong piece of hardware - essentially it demands very specific datapaths as going the wrong way exacts a hideous performance penalty and/or stalling.

Has it occurred to people that the reason we're seeing such inflated figures are that the target boxes who's specs have leaked are PCs. Machines that don't use a unified ram pool and therefore have double the target ram in order to simulate the final hardware's specs on both Ram and VRam capacity?

 

[M°°nblade]

Apparently Jeff thinks it's so easy to emulate the PS3.

"PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware."

Well it clearly does say 'emulate'.
What are these CPU elements? Synergistic Processing Elements, Power Processor Element? A cell variant?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Apparently Jeff thinks it's so easy to emulate the PS3.

Ok then you need to elaborate on what you mean. Edit: By elaborate, I mean a simple post and not a wall of text including pointless bolded lines and a barrage of useless links.

It makes absolutely no sense to release a quarter step console (not even a half step) when they are releasing a new system next year. I can understand another revision, maybe a SoC of the current hardware if they can figure out the issues with the die size reduction, but there is no logic in releasing a new PS3 that uses new hardware.

Maybe you are misunderstanding what a PS3.5 is due to the .5. It's not half way to a PS4, it may have 200 megs more memory and modern interface hardware so that accessories sold for the PS3.5 will work on the PS4. As far as # of processors and speed it's in line with a PS3 except for the efficiencies due to ultra wide I/O memory and SOC. These primarily impact efficiency (heat).

So you have a problem with the PS3.5 emulating a PS3 given it has the same # of PPC and SPUs just a different GPU with modern I/O. It's only emulating the PS3 RSX and I/O. They can't use the Cell as is or RSX because they can't support low power modes and would be hard to downsize. Modern I/O can support low power modes.

And in the Microsoft Xbox 720 Powerpoint they planned to do what I'm stating.

Barcelona Super Computer Center was rumored to be working on the PS4 and they developed the Cell simulator and probably worked on the emulation software for both Microsoft and
Sony.

"PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware."

Well it clearly does say 'emulate'.
What are these CPU elements? Synergistic Processing Elements, Power Processor Element? A cell variant?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100312969.pdf

 

[i-Lo]

Patience.

Do tell if you are willing to spill the beans at all in the near future or is this a big sarcastic entrapment?

 

[KageMaru]

What? That's like saying that unless there's a PS360 version of a next-gen offering, you can't tell what advantages the new platforms offer! It should be self-evident what a piece of hardware's strengths and weaknesses are; like for instance the sort of create-and-share functionality offered by several PS3 exclusives. Where the "lack of memory" fails to prevent them having the full game running with a user-creation layer running simultaneously.

The fact is that the consensus best looking console titles of this gen are PS3 exclusives, despite its memory situation and less efficient (no eDram) GPU.?

No, it's nothing like what you describe. You don't need a multiplatform title to tell the strength or weakness of a platform. At the same time you can't look at developers working around a limitation and pretend the limitation isn't there. Again, the methods used by the developers are very apparent when looking at these exclusive games.

Forget the 360, but instead let's pretend there are 2 versions of the PS3, one with the bloated OS and one without and exclusive game A was developed on both. Only then could you see how much the developer is impacted by having less memory.

The create-and-share functionality isn't really telling of anything since the game is designed with the known limitations in mind, so of course it's going to work.

Also, I can care less what the consensus thinks about the exclusive because 9.5/10 times the consensus doesn't know what they are talking about. They see a character model covered with low res textures covered with detail maps and they think it looks good, while the flaws are clear as day to me. It's a poor argument to bring up what the mindless masses thinks. Besides these consensus is likely from GAF because typical Joe Shmoe doesn't see much of a difference between graphics nearly as much, and well GAF loves sony, so the consensus is no surprise there.

If a game actually needs 6-8gb of space to run, good luck porting that to anything else without massive compromises being made. And if all that extra memory usage is being used to feed a monster GPU, then GPU throughput is still the biggest concern.

Check out some PC sites and see what performance gains are made by having a GPU with excessive amounts of VRam on major titles. 1080p framebuffers aren't that big.?

You can't compare PCs to consoles since a console port will be developed to work around those limitations.

By your logic, the Witcher 2 shouldn't have been possible on the 360. Or all the games where development lead on the 360 shouldn't have been possible on the ps3.

The differential in OS footprint was what, 50mb? When the PS3 system was at its most bloated, look at that as a ratio of the entire pool and you'll see how the magnitude of the problem will decline as the overall amount of available memory increases.

Its also a fallacy to see the division between the regions of PS3 memory as being rigid barriers, the problem was what happened to load/store cycle times when data was accessed in the wrong way by the wrong piece of hardware - essentially it demands very specific datapaths as going the wrong way exacts a hideous performance penalty and/or stalling.

No, the difference in the OS footprint was far larger than 50MB, we're talking about the difference of 32MB vs 100+MB. Even now with the difference being much smaller, it's still an issue. You really don't realize that every MB on these consoles means a lot, do you? Why else would Crytek make a big deal about saving 14MB by dropping the resolution of CE3 titles on the PS3? That 14MB is a big win in console development.

Also I never said anything about the regions of the PS3 memory.

Edit:

"PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware."

Well it clearly does say 'emulate'.
What are these CPU elements? Synergistic Processing Elements, Power Processor Element? A cell variant?

Yes I read how it said 'emulate' but I'm not so easily convinced that emulating the Cell is as simple as he makes it sound.

Maybe you are misunderstanding what a PS3.5 is due to the .5. It's not half way to a PS4, it may have 200 megs more memory and modern interface hardware so that accessories sold for the PS3.5 will work on the PS4. As far as # of processors and speed it's in line with a PS3 except for the efficiencies due to ultra wide I/O memory and SOC. These primarily impact efficiency (heat).

So you have a problem with the PS3.5 emulating a PS3 given it has the same # of PPC and SPUs just a different GPU with modern I/O. It's only emulating the PS3 RSX and I/O. They can't use the Cell as is or RSX because they can't support low power modes and would be hard to downsize. Modern I/O can support low power modes.

And in the Microsoft Xbox 720 Powerpoint they planned to do what I'm stating.

Barcelona Super Computer Center was rumored to be working on the PS4 and they developed the Cell simulator and probably worked on the emulation software for both Microsoft and
Sony.

"PS3.5 emulates a PS3 using the same CPU elements but not "Cell" using modern (downscaled) GPU and support hardware."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100312969.pdf

I'm not misunderstanding anything, and I even specifically said it's not going to be a half way step to the PS4. WTF is it with people on this site with horrible reading comprehension?

There won't be a ps3.5 with more memory or a different GPU or anything like that. Go on fooling yourself, and others apparently, into believing this.

Also I don't give a crap about MS' powerpoint, that is 2 years old and in no way concrete, but you want to take it as fact anyways.

 

[Glorified G]

Do tell if you are willing to spill the beans at all in the near future or is this a big sarcastic entrapment?

He knows just as much as you do.

 

[Globox_82]

He knows just as much as you do.

yup. And I though that type of clueless teasing is what can give you a ban.

 

[i-Lo]

yup. And I though that type of clueless teasing is what can give you a ban.

Stringing along others deliberately on fiction is tantamount to trolling and hence should be bannable. So I hope Proelite really does have something to offer.