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[phosphor112]

I forgot to mention this (Since I was banned at the time, lawl) but during the Keynote, when they announced the HSA Foundation, I posted in chat that I was perplexed that Sony wasn't a part of it for its launch, with all the rumors going around. One of the AMD folks said that there are others to become part of the HSA Foundation... (which is almost a given) but seemed like a subtle hint that Sony was considering being a part of it. That is what I perceived at least.

I might be completely mistaken... maybe they were just telling me the obvious, but yeah... just wanted to throw that out there.

EDIT: word change to make a little more sense.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I forgot to mention this (Since I was banned at the time, lawl) but during the Keynote, when they announced the HSA Foundation, I posted in chat that I was perplexed that Sony wasn't a part of it for its launch, with all the rumors going around. One of the AMD folks said that there are others to become part of the HSA Foundation... (which is almost a given) but seemed like a subtle hint that Sony was considering being a part of it. That is what I perceived at least.

I might be completely mistaken... and they were just telling me the obvious, but yeah... just wanted to throw that out there.

My guess too as it 1:1 echos the 2011 Sony patent = 2011 Cell vision (CPU agnostic) of distributed processing (from handheld to Cloud server). Can you provide a link to the chat page? Is Q&A still available?

 

[phosphor112]

My guess too as it 1:1 echos the 2011 Sony patent = 2011 Cell vision (CPU agnostic) of distributed processing (from handheld to Cloud server). Can you provide a link to the chat page? Is Q&A still available?

It was the live chat....let me see if I have it in my fraps screenshots... I was taking shots...

EDIT: Nope, didn't catch that line... and for some reason all my fraps captures have Red missing...

 

[Raistlin]

From past conversations I'm pretty sure you are being sarcastic but SteveP I think took it as a literal statement.

If literal, A major reason for the Xbox 720 and a Xbox361 (shown in the paper I cited) was to support XTV. Sony white papers and support for Google TV show they have the same plans and in the paper I linked, Microsoft thought Sony was going to support Google TV on the PS4.

Goggle TV is a form of XTV. XTV will explode on the scene when webkit2 can support it in CE platforms and that should be this September.

With native libraries in the PS3 supporting WEBKIT2 with HTML5 <video> (with the Microsoft-Google-Neflix proposed DRM), SVG and WebGL

1) Full XTV is possible in a refresh PS3 and with RVU in older PS3 models (No HDMI pass-thru) This is the reason for DTCP-IP in the PS3 since first firmware after 3.0.
2) 3-D XMB, Webview windows from the XMB with Rich Internet Applications and also Media rich (both supported by Sony job postings)
3) Sony can finally have commercial IPTV from the Sony store
4) Blu-ray applications

and much much more. The XMB is currently a 2D UI using OpenVG on game console hardware that can support 3D and 3-D which would require Cairo-eGL also necessary to support accelerated Webkit, SVG and WebGL. EGL supports OpenVG and OpenGLES2 which combined = Cairo-eGL support. OpenGLES2 has not been fully implemented on the PS3 as it should be always resident and is a memory hog. Current applications on the PS3 load their own UI support and require more memory than would be left if OpenGLES2 were resident. (Speculation)

I see what you're talking about now.

The problem is the term XTV is being used for different things depending on what rumor we're referring to.

I thought you were discussing MS's rumored IPTV service which several have termed XTV. Did you not see my reply to you that was discussing my concerns there?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I see what you're talking about now.

The problem is the term XTV is being used for different things depending on what rumor we're referring to.

I thought you were discussing MS's rumored IPTV service which several have termed XTV. Did you not see my reply to you that was discussing my concerns there?

XTV is a big standard that Allvid and RVU will have to support. It's like your description of Google TV but even Google TV is a subset of XTV functionality. Everything you posted is accurate but is not the entirety of X-tended TV. Google TV failed because standards were not in place as well as Chicken and egg.

There are now standards:

Hybrid Broadcast Broadband TV (HbbTV) is both an industry standard and promotional initiative for hybrid digital TV to harmonise the broadcast, IPTV, and broadband delivery of entertainment to the end consumer through connected TVs (Smart TVs) and set-top boxes.[1] The HbbTV consortium, regrouping digital broadcasting and Internet industry companies, is establishing a standard for the delivery of broadcast TV and broadband TV to the home, through a single user interface, creating an open platform as an alternative to proprietary technologies.[citation needed] Products and services using the HbbTV standard can operate over different broadcasting technologies, such as satellite, cable, or terrestrial networks.

HbbTV can show digital television content from a number of different sources including traditional broadcast TV, internet, and connected devices in the home. To watch hybrid digital TV, consumers will need a hybrid IPTV set-top box with a range of input connectors, including Ethernet as well as at least one tuner for receiving broadcast TV signals. The tuner in a hybrid set-top box can be digital terrestrial (DVB-T), digital cable (DVB-C) and digital satellite (DVB-S).

If you note above, the Xbox720 is setup to be a HBBTV set top box. Standards in the US are not as advanced.


I understood that Sony does not appear as aggressive but the whitepapers and minutes of discussions with industry wide representatives often includes Sony. They are behind the scenes steering standards.

An example: Microsoft does not yet have a browser in the Xbox360 and Sony has an unfinished browser. Both will have FULL browsers in Xbox360 and PS3 within a month of each other. Why, because both have targeted when XTV will hit the market and that is tied to webkit2 which Sony is using in the PS3.

This is HUGE and includes technology from many different disciplines all converging since 2008 for a release in LATE 2012, really 2013.

Webkit2 will have full support for HTML5 <video> by Sept 2012 and that will kick off XTV
h.265 (HEVC) will be published Jan 2013 but open source source code Nov 2012
Xbox361=>Xbox project 10 (XTV) was in 2010 targeted for late 2012. Gesh, doesn't that give you a clue if Microsoft knows XTV will be on-line for the 2012 season.

Smart TV

 

[Raistlin]

XTV is a big standard that Allvid and RTV will have to support. It's like your description of Google TV but even Google TV is a subset of XTV functionality. Everything you posted is accurate but is not the entirety of X-tended TV. Google TV failed because standards were not in place as well as Chicken and egg.

There are now standards:

If you note above, the Xbox720 is setup to be a HBBTV set top box. Standards in the US are not as advanced.


I understood that Sony does not appear as aggressive but the whitepapers and minutes of discussions with industry wide representatives often includes Sony. They are behind the scenes steering standards.

An example: Microsoft does not yet have a browser in the Xbox360 and Sony has an unfinished browser. Both will have FULL browsers in Xbox360 and PS3 within a month of each other. Why, because both have targeted when XTV will hit the market and that is tied to webkit2 which Sony is using in the PS3.

This is HUGE and includes technology from many different disciplines all converging since 2008 for a release in LATE 2012, really 2013.

Webkit2 will have full support for HTML5 <video> by Sept 2012 and that will kick off XTV
h.265 (HEVC) will be published Jan 2013 but open source source code Nov 2012
Xbox361=>Xbox project 10 (XTV) was in 2010 targeted for late 2012. Gesh, doesn't that give you a clue if Microsoft knows XTV will be on-line for the 2012 season.

We seem to have a failure to communicate

Looking through the citations, I see no mention of XTV at all? Is that actually the official name for it, or one that used as a colloquialism? Or is it the name you coined? I only see reference to Hybrid Broadcast Broadband TV (HbbTV).


'XTV' is being used by some analysts and in some rumors to refer to the either the codename or marketing name for an MS created internet television service. Based on how most of the stories were written, it didn't sound like they were referring to the underlying tech. It was simply the name of the service ... just like Netflix.



My point was simply that the discussion was getting confusing at times since it wasn't always obvious what people were referring to when they stated XTV.

 

[Rösti]

http://hothardware.com/News/AMD-Talks-Server-Strategy-Teases-Monster-GPU-At-2012-Fusion-Summit/

Next gen stuff at the bottom. Can't wait for these key notes to be available to the general public.

All keynotes should be available here: https://vts.inxpo.com/scripts/Server.nxp

I had some problems playing the video files, but according to AMD a replay of the webcast is available. PDF slides for each keynote are readily available however. Just use whatever login info, I just wrote N/A in all fields and I gained access to the hub.

 

[missile]

If Sony was to use LLVM and Clang as the C++ compiler in the next Playstation SDK, I don't see why they couldn't have, native performance, the benefits of JITC, and forwards compatibility, all at once, just have the games store the LLVM IR(Intermediate Representation) alongside the binary on the disc, on later consoles the IR could be just in time compiled to the target architecture at runtime.

I would be pleased if Sony would go C/C++ -> LLVM -> PS4 back-end. However,
what I meant was being in full control of having a virtual machine running
that keeps those companies in full control during runtime, not just only for
the sake of it xD, but also for example to schedule task whatsoever, like
HSA, in such a way that one can retarget the virtual machine for another
(bigger, next) system. But if I think of it, why not C/C++ -> LLVM -> PS4
virtual machine? I. e. you develop C/C++ code as usual which later becomes
translated to LLVM IR code feeded into a code-generator for the virtual
machine in question? What about C/C++ -> LLVM -> HSA? Btw; if you store the
game's LLVM IR code you better encrypt it very good, otherwise one will
have full source of the game, since the LLVM IR code, a typed assembly
language, carries quite a lot higher level information.

 

[Corky]

so I guess this rumour conflicts with the one thread that got locked, where it said the ps4 gpu had somewhere around 1.8 teraflops worth of juice whereas the 7970 gpu has 3.8~...

I'd love for the latter scenario to be true, but yeah....

 

[gofreak]

so I guess this rumour conflicts with the one thread that got locked, where it said the ps4 gpu had somewhere around 1.8 teraflops worth of juice whereas the 7970 gpu has 3.8~...

I'd love for the latter scenario to be true, but yeah....

Rumours don't conflict.

The info in the locked thread probably came from the same place this rumour came from anyway.

There's an unfortunate, persistent misinterpretation of the report in the OP. It doesn't say anything about a second 7970 GPU, it just says the APU's GPU uses the same architecture as that included in the 7970. But it has 18 compute units (vs the 7970's 32 iirc).

 

[Corky]

Rumours don't conflict.

The info in the locked thread probably came from the same place this rumour came from anyway.

There's an unfortunate, persistent misinterpretation of the report in the OP. It doesn't say anything about a second 7970 GPU, it just says the APU's GPU uses the same architecture as that included in the 7970. But it has 18 compute units (vs the 7970's 32 iirc).

Aha I see, thanks for clearing it up. Felt like it would be too good to be true... something equal to a 7970 in performance that is.

 

[Ashes]

Rumours don't conflict.

The info in the locked thread probably came from the same place this rumour came from anyway.

There's an unfortunate, persistent misinterpretation of the report in the OP. It doesn't say anything about a second 7970 GPU, it just says the APU's GPU uses the same architecture as that included in the 7970. But it has 18 compute units (vs the 7970's 32 iirc).

You predict a super apu then rather than what we have currently, apu + discrete. Interesting.

 

[jeff_rigby]

We seem to have a failure to communicate

Looking through the citations, I see no mention of XTV at all? Is that actually the official name for it, or one that used as a colloquialism? Or is it the name you coined? I only see reference to Hybrid Broadcast Broadband TV (HbbTV).

'XTV' is being used by some analysts and in some rumors to refer to the either the codename or marketing name for an MS created internet television service. Based on how most of the stories were written, it didn't sound like they were referring to the underlying tech. It was simply the name of the service ... just like Netflix.

My point was simply that the discussion was getting confusing at times since it wasn't always obvious what people were referring to when they stated XTV.

Yes, that's my impression, XTV is X-tended TV and not a product. It can be more properly thought of as a term that everything falls under not a specific Microsoft implementation. I did not make mysef clear, everything you talked about previously is accurate and falls under XTV but is not the entirety. And yes, depending on who you read, the term changes.

XTV (X-tended TV) is not a separate device that has to be booted and your TV switched to that input...this is probably the best way to describe XTV as X-tended TV where it is convenient for the user to access the internet or video chat with someone while watching TV. Smart TV is XTV but a game console can not support XTV unless it's convenient for the user.

HDMI 1080P + HDMI Pass-thru + HTML5 browser (with windows overlay) + low power modes are currently necessary in external boxes like game consoles to support XTV and the PS3 has everything but the bolded. Everything else to support a full XTV as envisioned by the PDF I cite below can be implemented in Software provided standards support it.

Smart TV is also a generic term that describes the same set. XTV is used by Sony in whitepapers to describe something like Google TV but in a TV that does not need a HDMI pass-thru. It's now called smart TV but current implementations are still a subset of what is coming.

A Quote from the Xbox 720 draft doc: Xbox360 "Will not support a full range of XTV platform scenarios (e.g. 1080p video + Video Chat +HTML5 Apps)" points to a subset that game consoles can support and this PDF outlining a companies xTV offerings points out XTV as you described it and Microsoft may support; that XTV is not going to be supported this 2012 season but, who knows, may be supported by the end of 2013 with support for it built into the Xbox720 and PS4.

Back to my point; more XTV features are coming this Sept and both game consoles NEED a refresh to support it. Both (Xbox360 anyway) consoles have been predicted to be in a sales slump in 2013 and we are now seeing that trend. Both consoles need a reduction in price this holiday season. For PS3 or Xbox360 to be truly accepted as a consumer friendly (XTV) part of a home TV or Home Theater they need HDMI pass-thru and more integration as well as an easier to use remote and UI. You can now back up to my post Xbox361=Xbox project 10 coming this 2012 holiday season= game console XTV.

Project 10 = Xbox361 ? X-Tended TV and 10 is roman number X

The current codename for the next Xbox is &#8220;Project Ten&#8221;
It will be coming in time for next year&#8217;s holiday season (2012)
The UI will be heavily based around Microsoft&#8217;s &#8220;Metro&#8221; style of user interface (the current interface for Windows Phone 7, and the style both the Xbox 360 and Windows 8 are moving to)
The console&#8217;s OS will have Microsoft&#8217;s Silverlight technology deeply embedded in it (potentially for uses such as media functionality)
Microsoft will be going the &#8220;Apple route&#8221; with Project Ten, meaning the console will extensively integrate with Windows 8 and Windows Phone for better cross-platform functionality

Xbox 361, cheaper Xbox360 with more features scheduled for 2012 which is the same as Xbox project 10: Page 50

HDMI pass-thru (IF the PS3 had this then Google TV would be possible)
HD-Homerun => access to a Homerun Digital TV tuner (just software support needed) I've got one and it's a 2 digital tuner (Cable and Air) connected to network.
XTV with full 1080P and overlays (Not possible on Xbox 360)

More is implied here, HDMI pass-through implies always on low power modes, Xbox361 as the only input to your TV with it controlling your picture with overlays, windows with information from the web and more.

So this is similar to what we were speculating a PS3.5 would have.

Xbox361 and Slimmer Slim PS3.5 released this holiday season?

HDMI pass-thru + low power modes + extremely hard to shrink Cell to 28nm + it should be a SOC for a reduction in costs = A VERY major redesign most likely using AMD building blocks which means the major Cell redesign would likely be 2 AMD plugin compatible 2010 Sony patent 1PPU4SPU wafers and AMD downscaled GPU with standby power modes. This only lacks one PPC to emulate a Xbox361 and one PPC in a 360 was dedicated to OS tasks that, AMD building blocks will be doing. Both PS3 and Xbox360 could be emulated on this SAME SOC. ARM cortex A5 in the SOC for DRM (TRUST).

Once software to emulate a 360 and PS3 on AMD building blocks using the same Cell wafers is made, only a small rewrite is necessary to do the same if those same wafers are in a PS4 SOC which might be identical to a Xbox 720 SOC. These speculations only because it's possible + BSC rumors and this Jul 2011 domain registration. microsoft-sony.com sony-microsoft.com No redesigned and cheaper PS3.5 and no BC for PS4. No Xbox361 and likely no PS3.5 or BC for Xbox 720 or PS4. Economics as the PPU+SPU economy of scale makes it practical to do all and not practical to do only some.

And in another Forum Brad Grenz has this to say:

MS looks to be sidestepping all those issues (None of the cable companies in the US have any intention, that I know of, of going full IPTV and thus allowing MS to avoid having to have some sort of decoding hardware in their box.) by relying on HDMI pass-through. It won't matter who you sat or cable provider is, just plug the hdmi out from their box into the 720, run another hdmi cable from the 720 to the TV and the xbox can seamlessly control the whole thing. They'll be able to record, change channels via hdmi-cec and overlay an Xbox Live interface and notifications. The implication in the document is that kind of functionality (sans dvr) would be introduced this year with the redesigned Xbox 361.

I couldn't say it better. This would be the first time the Xbox360 would have CEC which was introduced to the PS3 with the slim model. Both of us guessing but it's a pretty sure bet.

 

[systemfehler]

Apart from XTV and PS 3.5 are there new rumors concerning the PS4? Updated devkit specs? Sony finally aggreeing on 4GB? A week and nothing happened ... come on I want news my dear insiders

 

[Ashes]

Sony has partnered with google to help the Internet giant launch Google tv in the uk, in the last couple of days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18555538

 

[systemfehler]

Sony has partnered with google to help the Internet giant launch Google tv in the uk, in the last couple of days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18555538

Nice now we just need content like in the US and I am happy. True Blood no problems on iTunes in Germany but it is not available in Austria. So far I don't need a "smart" TV - there is just not enough content.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sony has partnered with google to help the Internet giant launch Google tv in the uk, in the last couple of days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18555538

Sony has a new Google TV box coming out later this year for $300. There are multiple rumors of a new XTV Xbox with HDMI pass-thru and one for a PS3 (Digitimes rumor). Both will have a finished browser and HTML5 apps by the end of this year. h.265 will half the bandwidth needed for HD IPTV also coming on line at the end of this year (Published Jan 2013).

CES postscript: Smart TVs get ready for prime time; There are thousands of apps already available, with more to come, on the various smart TV formats.

At the end of 2011 there were 82 million connected TVs in homes worldwide according to research group Informa. By 2016 it forecasts that number will have ballooned to 892 million.

The roll-out of cloud services allied to faster internet speeds now offers televisions the chance to usurp the PC's place, and offers users further freedom from the confines of broadcasters' schedules.
[/B]

"Probably the best example is that you are watching live sport and a family member phones on Skype and you want to take the call but you still want to be watching the football," says Andrew Denham, Panasonic UK's marketing director. "It's actually trying to make that multiscreen-in-one-environment work in a very effective way that's going to be a key to tiering it down, so that it is not just catch-up services that are popular but other applications." [TO do this on an external box you need HDMI pass-thru.]

Google TV 2.0 While Samsung and Panasonic are developing their own system software, Google is taking a second crack at offering its own smart TV service.

Microsoft Xbox & Kinect However, it may be Microsoft that deserves closer scrutiny. Analysts have praised the Kinect's integration with the Xbox 360's TV services
"Its voice and gesture controls in combination with its handheld controller and new Metro user interface are starting to gel with the XBox 360." According to Reuters, Microsoft had planned to go further and unveil its own TV and movie subscription service, but baulked at the fees media companies demanded.

However, analysts expect the firm to offer an even smoother TV browsing interface when it releases its next generation games console

Coming from multiple sources a Xbox361=Xbox Loop= Xbox project 10 is a Xbox 361 with HDMI Pass-thru for this 2012 holiday season to support XTV which the article above supports is exploding on the scene later this year and next.

Later this year Sony, with a finished browser that supports HTML5 <video> , will release Ultra violet apps and have their own streaming IPTV service from the Sony Store. h.265 published Jan 2013 will allow 4K blu-ray with quad layer drives and bump up the resolution available to IPTV with top tier able to support 1080 now being able to support 4K.

Besides the above supporting a PS3.5 coming to support XTV same as a Xbox361, PS4 will support 4K blu-ray and 4K IPTV and have a HDMI pass-thru. Then next generation after that may not need HDMI pass-thru if Allvid becomes a standard.

Also probably the best read on what's coming. Add to this the Xbox loop rumor had the advanced hardware seen in the Xbox 720 powerpoint.

There is confusion in the following Rumors we can understand only in hindsight because of the Xbox 720 powerpoint. Xbox361 = Xbox loop = Xbox project 10 being released in 2012 not Xbox720 which releases in 2013-2014 (Depends on yields and production issues).

According to reliable sources, the Xbox Infinity (which has a slight chance of being called Xbox 365 when it launches) has in fact been revealed to major developers at the 2012 CES! The reason these developers have not mentioned anything to the public or the media is because the developers have signed a contract preventing the console from being discussed publicly. And from what I'm told, the Xbox Infinity is still on schedule to be released in time for Christmas of 2012 in North America. I'm looking forward to seeing the Xbox Infinity in action at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo!

* Xbox Loop is the name of the &#8220;target&#8221; development kits that Microsoft has sent to third-party companies such as EA, Ubisoft, and Activision. These development kits are only alpha-stage development kits. In other words, they are not based on actual hardware; however, they are based on the target specifications Microsoft expects the next Xbox to be based on.

* The reason the word &#8220;Loop&#8221; is an important clue is because the &#8220;Loop&#8221; represents the sign of &#8220;Infinity.&#8221; Just take a look at the two &#8220;o&#8221; characters between the &#8220;L&#8221; and the &#8220;p.&#8221; You end up with &#8220;oo&#8221; &#8211; the sign of Infinity.

* Microsoft has entered into contracts to make it so Comcast technology will play a larger role on Xbox Live. Take a look at what Comcast is in the process of marketing right now and what their long-term marketing plan talks about more than anything else. Comcast is focused on &#8220;Xfinity.&#8221; This focus on the letter &#8220;X&#8221; isn&#8217;t a coincidence! Microsoft, Kinect, Xbox Live, and the Xbox Infinity will all be working together in special ways with Comcast technology.

Xbox365 - PS3.5 and Xbox Loop = Orbis (A loop around either PS3.5 or Xbox 365 is an Orbit=Orbis.....Support for ecosystem accessories, phones, tablets, LCD glasses and more) My guess is that both will have the advanced hardware in PS4 and Xbox 720 so that they can support the same accessories coming for next generation like the LCD glasses found by onQ123. Internally Microsoft and Sony may be using Project Loop and Orbis to describe the accessories and support for an ecosystem around the PS3.5, Xbox365, PS4 and Xbox 720.

How much more do I have to post before it's accepted that (microsoft-sony.com) are partnering on this?

That's according to Rich Hilleman, Electronic Arts chief creative officer in a recent interview. "I expected we'll see a PlayStation 3.5 before we see a PlayStation 4 and an Xbox 560 before we see an Xbox 720," he told VentureBeat,

Project 10 is the Comcast Xfinity XTV project = Xbox Infinity 10= Roman numeral X for XTV as in Xfinity
Xbox Loop is the same as Project Orbis or describing the (Same?) accessories and support for an ecosystem around the PS3.5, Xbox365, PS4 and Xbox 720
Xbox361=Xbox365 and is a new cheaper Xbox360 with HDMI pass-thru and support for Orbis and Loop accessories.
Xbox720 is Xbox720 or has not been named

PS3.5 My guess is PS3.5 is nearly identical to Xbox365
Orbis is the same as Xbox project Loop.
PS4 is PS4 or has not been named

The above is more accurate than the rumors we have been hearing......the reporting industry is really messed up. Too much confusion and assumption that what's coming in 2012 (PS3.5 and Xbox365) is what's coming in 2013-2014. This I think includes the SimiAccurate article on Oban. I suspect that due to the partnership between Sony and Microsoft, any news getting out causing so much press, both have gone to greater efforts to plug leaks on PS3.5 and Xbox365.

 

[mrklaw]

Rumours don't conflict.

The info in the locked thread probably came from the same place this rumour came from anyway.

There's an unfortunate, persistent misinterpretation of the report in the OP. It doesn't say anything about a second 7970 GPU, it just says the APU's GPU uses the same architecture as that included in the 7970. But it has 18 compute units (vs the 7970's 32 iirc).

I'd probably be happy with approx half the power of a 7970, which in a console should be able to hit the same kind of performance as a full 7970 in a PC.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

I'd probably be happy with approx half the power of a 7970, which in a console should be able to hit the same kind of performance as a full 7970 in a PC.

..lol, a PC has overheads that a console does not, but a 100% overhead?..that is just wrong.

And besides the amount of CPU cycles lost to background tasks on a PC whilst running games, in the age of Quad Core CPU's and higher, is miniscule, and vastly overplayed considering the amount of sheer horsepower now available.

 

[Psychotext]

..lol, a PC has overheads that a console does not, but a 100% overhead?..that is just wrong.

It's not really just about the overheads. There are massive advantages in targeting a specific bit of silicon rather than having to make your game work on hundreds of different GPUs.

But with that said, 100% is probably overly optimistic.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

There are massive advantages in targeting a specific bit of silicon rather than having to make your game work on hundreds of different GPUs.

I agree, but at the end of the day if you have half the bandwidth and half the fill rate available to you, there is only so far you can push it to make up the shortfall, and 100% is way over.

 

[mrklaw]

I agree, but at the end of the day if you have half the bandwidth and half the fill rate available to you, there is only so far you can push it to make up the shortfall, and 100% is way over.

how much do developers push a high end GPU these days? Hardly at all. You get console assets with higher res textures if you're lucky, running at higher resolutions with some AA. That is massively wasteful compared to what you'd get specifically targeting a single configuration.

 

[Cyborg]

If its not powerful as the next xbox I wont buy it.....

 

[Black_Stride]

If its not powerful as the next xbox I wont buy it.....

Powerful in what respect?
And what advantage would it being more powerful actually bring if the end result is Xbox 360 vs PS3 all over again i.e Where most third party titles are better on Xbox and the handful of first party titles are the only time the machine shows off its power?

 

[i-Lo]

Powerful in what respect?
And what advantage would it being more powerful actually bring if the end result is Xbox 360 vs PS3 all over again i.e Where most third party titles are better on Xbox and the handful of first party titles are the only time the machine shows off its power?

I think he means this

 

[iamshadowlark]

I think he means this

Thats about architecure though. Power would be more like ALUs and such.

 

[Shikoro]

I think he means this

Holy shit! If this is in any way true, I'm buying an Xbox console for the first time.

Spoiler

Not really. However, step your game up, Sony!

 

[kuroshiki]

I think he means this

Radeon 7000m is basically rebranded 6000 series though. So just because something has 7 in front doesn't mean it has true architecture change.

 

[Cyborg]

Powerful in what respect?
And what advantage would it being more powerful actually bring if the end result is Xbox 360 vs PS3 all over again i.e Where most third party titles are better on Xbox and the handful of first party titles are the only time the machine shows off its power?

Sir, Im a Playstation fan but I wont buy a less powerful console than the new Xbox cause I love graphics. If Sony cant deliver I will choose the best console. I dont want any casual crap (sorry guys) So if Sony lacks the power to make their console nr.1 in graphics I wont buy it!

I dont trust rumors, just saying if..........

 

[systemfehler]

I don't care too much about power as long as both 720 and PS4 play in the same league - much like in the current generation. However if the 720 ends up being much more powerfull than the PS4 I might consider switching sides. I can live with Skyrim on PS3 being a bit "problematic" due to coding/memory issues because I get a game like Beyond, The Last of Us in "exchange" if that is not working the next generation or gets better Sony has lost me as a customer. I also want games where the PS4 has been the lead plattform or exclusives that really outshine the 720 so that is my reason for at least an equal amount of "power". Power comes down to architecture, RAM, GFlops, ...

 

[Cyborg]

I don't care too much about power as long as both 720 and PS4 play in the same league - much like in the current generation. However if the 720 ends up being much more powerfull than the PS4 I might consider switching sides. I can live with Skyrim on PS3 being a bit "problematic" due to coding/memory issues because I get a game like Beyond, The Last of Us in "exchange" if that is not working the next generation or gets better Sony has lost me as a customer. I also want games where the PS4 has been the lead plattform or exclusives that really outshine the 720 so that is my reason for at least an equal amount of "power". Power comes down to architecture, RAM, GFlops, ...

Indeed.....Im a fan but they better not screw this up! Listen more to the developers like MS is doing

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Sony wouldn't be that dumb to let MS have a large power advantage. Sony has nothing else going for them.

MS will be able to secure more than just exclusive DLC next gen. imo anyway.

 

[OniShiro]

I think PS4 will be more powerful because Xbox720 will need to devote some of it's processing power ( maybe a couple threads ? ) to Kinect, while PS4's move is less taxing.

 

[DieH@rd]

I think PS4 will be more powerful because Xbox720 will need to devote some of it's processing power ( maybe a couple threads ? ) to Kinect, while PS4's move is less taxing.

Yeah, but PS3 already reserves one PPE and one SPE for OS, and Move is processed there. Who knows maybe PS4 will reserve even more for that.

 

[i-Lo]

Sony wouldn't be that dumb to let MS have a large power advantage. Sony has nothing else going for them.

MS will be able to secure more than just exclusive DLC next gen. imo anyway.

This is in the same vein from another thread. I do agree that possibility.

From what I understood about GDDR5 and PS4 and the potential battle for 4GB as opposed to 2GB is that it's cost and not tech dependent. One needs only to look at the comparatively small GPU board where manufacturers have fit up to 8GB or 32 GDDR5 chips.

So at the end of the day, it comes down much loss is Sony willing to eat once more per console at launch and how fast they can turn it around to black.

I don't know if Sony, like Nintendo, can survive or thrive only with its first party games but if third parties once again start releasing gimped ports on PS4 due to RAM constraints, then Sony would have learned nothing given third party games account for majority of games sold today on PS3 and 360.

 

[mrklaw]

Sony wouldn't be that dumb to let MS have a large power advantage. Sony has nothing else going for them.

MS will be able to secure more than just exclusive DLC next gen. imo anyway.

based on what? MS get the lead development on most multiplatform titles at the moment, but PS3 finally gets decent versions. And MS seem to put way less effort into first party games and their XBLA stuff, preferring to push other entertainment services and kinect. Sony at least still seem focused on games.

I think PS4 will be more powerful because Xbox720 will need to devote some of it's processing power ( maybe a couple threads ? ) to Kinect, while PS4's move is less taxing.

depends entirely on how powerful they are relative to each other in the first place, and how much power/ram is reserved for OS/kinect/move etc. Thats not a comparison that can be made yet.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think any chance of Sony releasing an underpowered system ended at E3. I'm sure that they saw the very positive response to Watch_Dogs, Star Wars 1313 and the Final Fantasy Tech Demo. People are going to want to play games that look like that and not watered down versions of them.

You also have the recent comments about them not wanting to show/announce the PS4 until it's the best. Sony simply doesn't have the first party popularity to survive if third party devs start making major exclusives for the next Xbox, so they really have no choice but to go big.

 

[Giant Panda]

Keeping up with a MS powerhouse is a bad idea for Sony. They just need to make sure the PS4 can get serviceable ports power wise, there's no need to go stronger than that. It will all be about the price, services, and a new (non-tablet hopefully) controller.

You can bet that there will be almost no 3rd party exclusives if the two systems are easy to port to each other, so there's no need to worry about that.

 

[i-Lo]

Keeping up with a MS powerhouse is a bad idea for Sony. They just need to make sure the PS4 can get serviceable ports power wise, there's no need to go stronger than that. It will all be about the price, services, and a new (non-tablet hopefully) controller.

You can bet that there will be almost no 3rd party exclusives if the two systems are easy to port to each other, so there's no need to worry about that.

Define serviceable.

Note: It looks like WiiU will be getting ports from PS4/XB3.

 

[DieH@rd]

I think any chance of Sony releasing an underpowered system ended at E3. I'm sure that they saw the very positive response to Watch_Dogs, Star Wars 1313 and the Final Fantasy Tech Demo. People are going to want to play games that look like that and not watered down versions of them.

You also have the recent comments about them not wanting to show/announce the PS4 until it's the best. Sony simply doesn't have the first party popularity to survive if third party devs start making major exclusives for the next Xbox, so they really have no choice but to go big.

I think that they only need time for demos to be finished. According to rumors, they locked majority of the hardware down, only RAM remains.

On the other hand MS is still preparing upgraded GPU section, and will most probably launch after PS4.

 

[i-Lo]

I think any chance of Sony releasing an underpowered system ended at E3. I'm sure that they saw the very positive response to Watch_Dogs, Star Wars 1313 and the Final Fantasy Tech Demo. People are going to want to play games that look like that and not watered down versions of them.

You also have the recent comments about them not wanting to show/announce the PS4 until it's the best. Sony simply doesn't have the first party popularity to survive if third party devs start making major exclusives for the next Xbox, so they really have no choice but to go big.

Pretty much. The expectations Sony has set, they must keep. PS brand in the minds of game journalists today, at large, is still the console for core gamers and new blood alike with established franchises as well funding new (and sometimes) experimental IPs. If Sony can focus on selling people exactly what the game journalist in general think of them then it'll lay the foundation of more good years to come.

 

[Clear]

LOL at the 2Gb = constrained ram stuff.

We're talking about a huge amount of space guys, if executable and data-sizes are ballooning past 2gb that's just sloppyness. The only reason you should be looking at that sort of memory usage is with a heavy O/S overhead that is caching a whole bunch of other apps and processes.

2Gb unified should be fine, 4Gb is more than enough (2+1 is optimal) and 8gb is plain excessive.

 

[i-Lo]

LOL at the 2Gb = constrained ram stuff.

We're talking about a huge amount of space guys, if executable and data-sizes are ballooning past 2gb that's just sloppyness. The only reason you should be looking at that sort of memory usage is with a heavy O/S overhead that is caching a whole bunch of other apps and processes.

2Gb unified should be fine, 4Gb is more than enough (2+1 is optimal) and 8gb is plain excessive.

So I take it you know better than most of the devs who have voiced their concern especially in light that MS may very well go over 4GB if not settle there first.

OS size notwithstanding, RAM has always been the single weak-link in any console and the devs simply want to ensure that:

1. They don't run into a wall only overcome by significant compromises a few years into PS4's life cycle and

2. Porting multiplat games onto PS4 achieve parity with XB3 unlike the situation with PS3.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I think that they only need time for demos to be finished. According to rumors, they locked majority of the hardware down, only RAM remains.

On the other hand MS is still preparing upgraded GPU section, and will most probably launch after PS4.

If they get a several month headstart on the next Xbox, then it would be understable for them to release a console that wouldn't be as powerful as it by the time that it's released. But they absolutely can't release an underpowered console at the same time as the next Xbox. And even if the next Xbox is packing a bigger punch they need to make sure that it's less than the original Xbox compared to the PS2. Even with that power gap you were seeing some games that weren't ported to the PS2 and others that looked horrendous compared to the Xbox versions (like Splinter Cell).

 

[KageMaru]

I still can't believe people already insist on owning one specific next gen console before we know anything about them. Having preferences is normal, being a *insert company* fan is just silly and limits your options.

LOL at the 2Gb = constrained ram stuff.

We're talking about a huge amount of space guys, if executable and data-sizes are ballooning past 2gb that's just sloppyness. The only reason you should be looking at that sort of memory usage is with a heavy O/S overhead that is caching a whole bunch of other apps and processes.

2Gb unified should be fine, 4Gb is more than enough (2+1 is optimal) and 8gb is plain excessive.

You can easily use more than 2GB and not be sloppy. That amount would not be great for a system expected to last 7+ years.

 

[Globox_82]

I still can't believe people already insist on owning one specific next gen console before we know anything about them. Having preferences is normal, being a *insert company* fan is just silly and limits your options.



You can easily use more than 2GB and not be sloppy. That amount would not be great for a system expected to last 7+ years.

exactly. If they don't need 6 or 8 gb now, whos to say they won't need it 5 year into consoles life cycle?!

 

[systemfehler]

I still can't believe people already insist on owning one specific next gen console before we know anything about them. Having preferences is normal, being a *insert company* fan is just silly and limits your options.



You can easily use more than 2GB and not be sloppy. That amount would not be great for a system expected to last 7+ years.

Especially if the next-generation console OS will indeed become a big media hub for games, on-demand streaming, social interaction and much more. Furthermore I doubt that texture will become smaller in the next generation. Can't imagine The Elder Scrolls Next with only 2GB Ram.

 

[Raistlin]

LOL at the 2Gb = constrained ram stuff.

We're talking about a huge amount of space guys, if executable and data-sizes are ballooning past 2gb that's just sloppyness. The only reason you should be looking at that sort of memory usage is with a heavy O/S overhead that is caching a whole bunch of other apps and processes.

2Gb unified should be fine, 4Gb is more than enough (2+1 is optimal) and 8gb is plain excessive.

The question is will next gen be mostly about gaming? If the rumors are true regarding 720, doesn't seem to be the case.

The amount of RAM required is depending on the architecture and system usage.

 

[KageMaru]

The question is will next gen be mostly about gaming? If the rumors are true regarding 720, doesn't seem to be the case.

The amount of RAM required is depending on the architecture and system usage.

Simple fact is if the PS4 has 2GB of memory, it will suffer if the NextBox has 5+GB usable RAM.

 

[Clear]

You can easily use more than 2GB and not be sloppy.

On what exactly? Most data in games is transient and therefore well suited to streaming and preloading. Ultimately you're primarily serving information visible within the viewing frustrum, and that isn't going to change because its intrinsic.

More memory is just more. Not better.

Next gen's games are just going to be like this gen's with improved graphics. Fill-rate is still going to be king because in 9/10 cases rasterization is the biggest bottleneck, and therefore the only significant difference maker is GPU throughput.