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[mysticwhip]

killzone trailer still has better character models,physics(hair,clothing) and animations than anything from this gen

 

[Paracelsus]

XBOX Akuma confirmed.

 

[phosphor112]

I don't want 4-6 times 360, won't that be a little difficult to put clear blue water between it and the 360? And in that case why are we 'upgrading' if there isn't much 'up'?

all that media stuff sounds interesting but ATSC tuners etc seems overkill. You can stream online services with a cheap appleTV or roku box. That should be a hygiene factor hardware wise, not something you build a box around. (of course software wise you can emphasise media in the OS)

The upgrade would be the feature-set.

 

[JJD]

killzone trailer still has better character models,physics(hair,clothing) and animations than anything from this gen

There's been posts here on GAF showing that Killzone 2 and specially Killzone 3 surpassed that pre rendered trailer on various points.

And there are PC games that surpassed it altogether quite awhile ago.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

There's been posts here on GAF showing that Killzone 2 and specially Killzone 3 surpassed that pre rendered trailer on various points.

And there are PC games that surpassed it altogether quite awhile ago.

IN SCREENSHOTS.

In motion, that pre-render is better than anything on the market.

 

[Globox_82]

killzone trailer still has better character models,physics(hair,clothing) and animations than anything from this gen

yeah....because it's a freaking CG aka nothing to do with games.

 

[JJD]

IN SCREENSHOTS.

In motion, that pre-render is better than anything on the market.

No need to use caps to try to make a point. I'm pretty sure they were talking about the game in motion, who would argue which one looks better in pictures??? That's ridiculous.

Besides if you look at that trailer the overall animation is not even that good. BF3 on the PS3 alone has better animation.

The gun and gun handling animation is kinda nice, but all the other ones feel mostly clunky. Look at bullet hit animation and tell me I'm wrong. KZ2 is better than that.

God Of War has better models than that. WAY better.

Alice has better hair and cloth on PC, can't say about consoles because I haven't played it there.

On the trailer shots lack punch, they don't "connect" or feel powerful. It may have looked good (then) but it sure as hell didn't look like it played well. It was just fluid.

If that's were FPSs are headed I don't want to be there. The proper Killzone games looked and specially played miles better than that.

If you truly believe that trailer is still unsurpassed today you're delusional my friend.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Guerrilla did well to match that target render. There are a lot of things in that trailer that are beyond the capabilities of the PS3, but I like the look of the final product more.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

If you truly believe that trailer is still unsurpassed today you're delusional my friend.

The asset quality has been surpassed, but no game I have ever seen has anything even approaching the level of dynamicism and individuality of animation as in that prerender.

Because it's a prerender.You would never expect to see that level in something genuinely interactive.

 

[JJD]

The asset quality has been surpassed, but no game I have ever seen has anything even approaching the level of dynamicism and individuality of animation as in that prerender.

Because it's a prerender.You would never expect to see that level in something genuinely interactive.

OK, never mind that we were talking about models and physics, not only animations which were the points I was trying to refute.

I'll agree that it looked really dynamic, I even said it in an edit that it looked fluid, but that's all that it has going for it nowadays IMO. It has been surpassed by individual consoles games on various if not all aspects, and by PC games on pretty much everything.

Sure that's just my opinion, but I wonder who is in the minority here.

Anyway I don't want to derail the thread any further so we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Kujo]

So, do you think we'll see a slimmer PS3 this year?

 

[Death Dealer]

No.

 

[Zaptruder]

The asset quality has been surpassed, but no game I have ever seen has anything even approaching the level of dynamicism and individuality of animation as in that prerender.

Because it's a prerender.You would never expect to see that level in something genuinely interactive.

Canned and scripted sequences exist. They look similar in quality. The only thing that is missing is the smoothness of the camera movement... because it's not actually been controlled by the player.

 

[brain_stew]

There's been posts here on GAF showing that Killzone 2 and specially Killzone 3 surpassed that pre rendered trailer on various points.

And there are PC games that surpassed it altogether quite awhile ago.

No.

 

[airmangataosenai]

IN SCREENSHOTS.

In motion, that pre-render is better than anything on the market.

Can't say I agree with this, plenty of games match that level of animation. Hell, I'd argue that The Last of Us actually surpasses it in some respects.

 

[Ashes]

On the presumption that the pdf is true, what has the best guess been for the arm cores?
Massively parallel =better philosophy?
or is arm related to a tablet of some kind?
or kinect functionality?
or Amd integration?
Is it an economic consideration?
Stuff to do with things planned down the pipe line?

 

[mrklaw]

The only reason I can think for an ARM core is that it'd make it relatively easy to bring a tablet version of windows 8 across. Or if they are considering a lite version, perhaps that is ARM based and they include it in the full fat version for compatibility - I.e fat version is a superset of the lite version

 

[jeff_rigby]

So, do you think we'll see a slimmer PS3 this year?

Yes there must be a lower priced PS3 and it must support a HDMI pass-thru for XTV. Same for Microsoft, there must be a lower price Xbox361 with HDMI pass-thru. Both will be SOC based to reduce cost. Since stacked Ram is faster and cheaper than XDR and the Cell would have to be redesigned to be shrunk further (28nm) there could be large changes to the hardware that would require a major rewrite to the PS3 OS.

I expect both will be SOCs built with AMD building blocks (cheaper) and for the PS3.5 the RSX emulated. Building a GPU for a PS3.5 or Xbox 361 in 2012 is going to require a custom massively down scaled GPU that could be used by both. Since economy of scale (AMD building blocks) would have USB3 being cheaper than a custom older USB2, wireless N chip cheaper than G ....you get the point, the PS3.5 and Xbox 361 would be massively advanced over "standard" consoles and cheaper.

A cheaper Slimmer slim could not be produced until the AMD SOC building blocks and processes were ready and that is this year.

Given the above it's a small stretch to believe the redesigned PS3 Cell to fit in a AMD SOC and using building blocks that should be similar to some of the PS4 building blocks with OS emulating RSX that the same redesigned Cell could be in a PS4 for BC. Also with one more PPC in the PS3 SOC and PS4 SOC, Xbox 360 could be emulated in both.

Edit: Low power modes and integrating HDMI pass-thru necessary for XTV and states like California that have "Green" power requirements means the CPUs will have individual turn on modes where One or two can be run while the others are turned off, same for GPU..partial sleep modes for the GPU elements while in Media mode or standby. This also eliminates the old Cell or RSX design....massive changes are required.

 

[systemfehler]

Yes there must be a lower priced PS3 and it must support a HDMI pass-thru for XTV. Same for Microsoft, there must be a lower price Xbox361 with HDMI pass-thru. Both will be SOC based to reduce cost. Since stacked Ram is faster and cheaper than XDR and the Cell would have to be redesigned to be shrunk further (28nm) there could be large changes to the hardware that would require a major rewrite to the PS3 OS.

I expect both will be SOCs built with AMD building blocks (cheaper) and for the PS3.5 the RSX emulated. Building a GPU for a PS3.5 or Xbox 361 in 2012 is going to require a custom massively down scaled GPU that could be used by both. Since economy of scale (AMD building blocks) would have USB3 being cheaper than a custom older USB2, wireless N chip cheaper than G ....you get the point, the PS3.5 and Xbox 361 would be massively advanced over "standard" consoles and cheaper.

A cheaper Slimmer slim could not be produced until the AMD SOC building blocks and processes were ready and that is this year.

Given the above it's a small stretch to believe the redesigned PS3 Cell to fit in a AMD SOC and using building blocks that should be similar to some of the PS4 building blocks with OS emulating RSX that the same redesigned Cell could be in a PS4 for BC. Also with one more PPC in the PS3 SOC and PS4 SOC, Xbox 360 could be emulated in both

So instead of showing a new Xbox360 (PS3) with enhanced features at the E3 that you presume launches this holiday season (less than 6 months) to "battle" the Wii-U launch both "only" showed a few games ready for 2013? I am sorry I understand that your speculation makes sense and is actually feasible but I don't see that happening for 2012.

I also doubt that there will be a "small" PS3 in the PS4 for BC - that didn't work out with the PS2, was very expensive and for development ease it does exactly the opposite. If the current PS4 rumors are true I don't see a BC Cell/RSX combo fitting into them without seriously compromising TDP, cost and complexity.

 

[Durante]

I also doubt that there will be a "small" PS3 in the PS4 for BC - that didn't work out with the PS2, was very expensive and for development ease it does exactly the opposite. If the current PS4 rumors are true I don't see a BC Cell/RSX combo fitting into them without seriously compromising TDP, cost and complexity.

It did work out well for PS2 though, in terms of PS1 compatibility. Also, you'd probably only need Cell, RSX should be possible to emulate unless some games used very low level access.

If they have the possibility of including Cell on their SoC then it would be worth it IMHO, BC is huge especially for PSN and the SPEs would still be a really good deal performance/power wise for PS4 software that uses them (eg. exclusives or middleware).

 

[jeff_rigby]

So instead of showing a new Xbox360 (PS3) with enhanced features at the E3 that you presume launches this holiday season (less than 6 months) to "battle" the Wii-U launch both "only" showed a few games ready for 2013? I am sorry I understand that your speculation makes sense and is actually feasible but I don't see that happening for 2012.

I also doubt that there will be a "small" PS3 in the PS4 for BC - that didn't work out with the PS2, was very expensive and for development ease it does exactly the opposite. If the current PS4 rumors are true I don't see a BC Cell/RSX combo fitting into them without seriously compromising TDP, cost and complexity.

A Cell/RSX would not work, would be too expensive, could not be scaled to 28nm could not use PS4 memory, yes you are correct there.

Sony and Microsoft can not announce 361 and PS3.5 until they know the Yield stats for the SOC and Sony can not release a PS3.5 until GTKwebkit2 with Gstreamer 1.0 is ready to support XTV and that won't happen till about Sept.

Any announcement of a 361 or PS3.5 will kill sales of Xbox360 and PS3. They will not be announced until stocks of older generation machines are lower and stocks of 361 and PS3.5 are high enough for this season.

I have no way to prove this speculation but arguments against it have no validity until after November 2012. As far as I can figure, it's my speculation or no slimmer slim is coming and no BC in PS4.

 

[systemfehler]

It did work out well for PS2 though, in terms of PS1 compatibility. Also, you'd probably only need Cell, RSX should be possible to emulate unless some games used very low level access.

If they have the possibility of including Cell on their SoC then it would be worth it IMHO, BC is huge especially for PSN and the SPEs would still be a really good deal performance/power wise for PS4 software that uses them (eg. exclusives or middleware).

Of course it would be a nice to have feature in my eyes - especially during the first 12 months after launch when there is often a lack of AAA games. I just fear that true PS3 BC would be too complex to achieve.

I am not an expert but who owns the RSX design? Is Sony even allowed to emulate the RSX with a AMD GPU without violating patents and other agreements with Nvidia because they have to open up the design vault of the RSX for AMD.

Even a low power Cell + APU + AMD GPU sounds pretty expensive and complex and I doubt that the Cell would be used much by developers when even now people complain about the complexity. Just to use Cell for the OS, always-on, PSN/PS3 games seems a bold and unneccessary move in my eyes.

In my opinion the best solution would be partial BC achieved with the new APU + GPU at least for less demanding PSN games and every other game that will work is considered a bonus - like with the PS2/PS3 situation. Sony is struggling and their entertainment business is what keeps them above the water (at least it is not doing that bad) and I fear they can't risk another PS3 launch. They need the right hardware, games, services and if that means to (partially) cut BC I am fine with it. Of course some/a lot gamers will cry but in the end such things will be forgotten aswell if your new consoles plays Uncharted 4 with 1080p@60fps instead of a sluggish Uncharted 3 BC version ;-)


EDIT:

A Cell/RSX would not work, would be too expensive, could not be scaled to 28nm could not use PS4 memory, yes you are correct there.

Sony and Microsoft can not announce 361 and PS3.5 until they know the Yield stats for the SOC and Sony can not release a PS3.5 until GTKwebkit2 with Gstreamer 1.0 is ready to support XTV and that won't happen till about Sept.

Any announcement of a 361 or PS3.5 will kill sales of Xbox360 and PS3. They will not be announced until stocks of older generation machines are lower and stocks of 361 and PS3.5 are high enough for this season. .

How do you know those things? It means you know that there is already a smaller PS3 ready and put to the wafers (with unknown yield rates so far) and the Sony developmen team is close to finishing a software product/integration

I have no way to prove this speculation but arguments against it have no validity until after November 2012.

So in the worst case Sony has to announce something at TGS in september to make a holiday launch or the whole project will be canned because at some point a PS 3.5 might not be interesting when there is a PS4 on the horizon.

 

[iamshadowlark]

What is xtv? Google just returns porn.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Of course it would be a nice to have feature in my eyes - especially during the first 12 months after launch when there is often a lack of AAA games. I just fear that true PS3 BC would be too complex to achieve.

I am not an expert but who owns the RSX design? Is Sony even allowed to emulate the RSX with a AMD GPU without violating patents and other agreements with Nvidia because they have to open up the design vault of the RSX for AMD.

Sony owns the RSX IP to make a RSX so I expect emulating a RSX is less of a IP Copyright issue.

Even a low power Cell + APU + AMD GPU sounds pretty expensive and complex and I doubt that the Cell would be used much by developers when even now people complain about the complexity. Just to use Cell for the OS, always-on, PSN/PS3 games seems a bold and unneccessary move in my eyes.

PPC and SPUs in a PS4 can be substituted for FPUs by the OS and OpenCL allows treating a PPC-SPU combination as a universal compute unit with easier to use structure than a GPU using OpenCL.

In my opinion the best solution would be partial BC achieved with the new APU + GPU at least for less demanding PSN games and every other game that will work is considered a bonus - like with the PS2/PS3 situation.

That won't work.

Sony is struggling and their entertainment business is what keeps them above the water (at least it is not doing that bad) and I fear they can't risk another PS3 launch. They need the right hardware, games, services and if that means to (partially) cut BC I am fine with it. Of course some/a lot gamers will cry but in the end such things will be forgotten aswell if your new consoles plays Uncharted 4 with 1080p@60fps instead of a sluggish Uncharted 3 BC version ;-)

PS3 and Xbox sales are taking a dive as predicted in the 2010 Microsoft Xbox720 Draft-1 paper I linked to. Another price cut is needed for the PS3 so a refresh from 40 to 28nm is needed. That can not happen without a major redesign for the PS3 and RSX. XTV needs to be supported so HDMI Pass-thru is needed. Back to my previous posts!


EDIT:

How do you know those things? It means you know that there is already a smaller PS3 ready and put to the wafers (with unknown yield rates so far) and the Sony developmen team is close to finishing a software product/integration

Microsoft knew in 2010 that Xbox360 sales would tank in 2013 and so must Sony about PS3 sales. It's what I would do. Also I have been following the browser development on the PS3 and have read the Sony whitepapers describing XTV and what h.265 means to both TVs and IPTV.

So in the worst case Sony has to announce something at TGS in september to make a holiday launch or the whole project will be canned because at some point a PS 3.5 might not be interesting when there is a PS4 on the horizon.

Yes, exactly!

What is xtv? Google just returns porn.

Google TV is first generation XTV. The ability to open a window while watching TV and access the internet. This requires in an external box like a game console to have a HDMI-pass-thru and window overlay ability. The ability to (without having to turn on and wait for boot) access Netflix or TV guide or have comments or advertising overlay a movie. To open a window in your TV to see a security camera feed of the front door or to video chat in one window while another window has a video of the baby's room. This is X-tended TV and the idea of the Xbox project 10. 10 in roman numerals is a X see pic which is supposed to come this year Xbox361=Xbox10:

This is probably the Digicom rumor with 20 million expected to be sold the first year and something like Kinect built in. It's also possible that those 20 million could be split between Xbox and PS3 sales with the Motherboard and SOC, all but the branding on the case, being exactly the same=> microsoft-sony.com

 

[dragonelite]

So microsoft will reveal the 361 on a event they organize themselves?
Wasn't that the big reason to stop with CES.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed at a win 8 event just to show the integration of all the platforms(pc,tablet,console,mobile).

 

[jeff_rigby]

So microsoft will reveal the 361 on a event they organize themselves?
Wasn't that the big reason to stop with CES.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed at a win 8 event just to show the integration of all the platforms(pc,tablet,console,mobile).

Yes I tend to agree and I don't think either Sony or Microsoft will announce that they are using the same hardware (if my speculation turns out to be true) but someone a few weeks or months after launch is going to notice and leak this.

Microsoft had an advantage with Silverlght and has an advantage with Explorer so they could announce the Xbox10 first and be further along in integration with Window8. Sony advertised for programmers nearly a year ago to design HTML5 RIA and Media Rich applications. Currently they have a modified GTKwebkit2 browser using OpenVG and Pixman with no HTML5 <video>, SVG, accelerated webview or WebGL support which means they are only using the 2D part of Cairo-eGL and OpenGLES2 is not fully supported yet so no windows and no Gstreamer with cairo bindings.

Edit: By Sept Sony should have a browser that can fully support XTV and Commercial IPTV. By Nov possibly and for sure by Jan 2013 they will have h.265 which can half the bandwidth needed for IPTV and make possible 4K blu-ray.

 

[Brad Grenz]

So instead of showing a new Xbox360 (PS3) with enhanced features at the E3 that you presume launches this holiday season (less than 6 months) to "battle" the Wii-U launch both "only" showed a few games ready for 2013? I am sorry I understand that your speculation makes sense and is actually feasible but I don't see that happening for 2012.

Microsoft previously announced and began selling the 360 Slim the same week. If they are targeting a holiday release of a redesigned, cost reduced version they wouldn't announce it 6 months early. People would stop buying the current model.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Microsoft previously announced and began selling the 360 Slim the same week. If they are targeting a holiday release of a redesigned, cost reduced version they wouldn't announce it 6 months early. People would stop buying the current model.

Exactly but probably understated as it's not just cheaper, it will probably have current hardware specs in AMD building blocks like:

Wireless N
USB3
Gigbit port
HDMI pass-thru and 1080P
Low power modes

Stacked memory inside the SOC & more memory + Unified memory but some memory and processor would be needed for emulation.
maybe Cross game chat
Quad layer Blu-ray if the PS3 doesn't support it already.

Developers and games may not have access to some of the above as Sony will not want to fragment the PS3.

The above would have many buying a second PS3.5 just to get the added abilities. Add a higher res depth camera useable because of the USB3 port and sales should be good even if we know a PS4 is coming.

 

[noobie]

AMD details next year mobile & server plan.. I dont know if this is relevant.. but maybe you can find some details from it for PS4..

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/23113

 

[onQ123]

Strangely my ram numbers from last year are almost on the money lol

"if the next Xbox comes out in 2012 that would be 7 years that's time enough to upgrade by about 12 = 6GB"

I don't remember how I came up with these calculations so I'm guessing adding a year to it & changing it to 2013 would come out to be 8GB for the Xbox 3



"if the PS4 comes out in 2012 that would be 6 years 256MB x 8 = 2GB ram"

& for the PS4 I just have to take away the crazy 16GB of Vram & flip it to Flash lol





http://www.psu.com/forums/showthrea...ent-incoming?p=5483130&viewfull=1#post5483130

____________________________________
after seeing the new GPUs with 3GB of Vram for Computers & knowing that no devs is going to put that GPU to full use any time soon because they have to make games that work with all types of GPU / CPU & memory setups I think I'm ready to see the Next Gen of Home Consoles start.


just think what can be done on a console with something like 6GB Ram & 3GB of VRam




Edit: & before anyone think I'm crazy for thinking we can get a console with 6GB ram & 3GB VRam just remember how big of a jump consoles take each time they make a new one besides Nintendo with the Wii.


xbox 64MB to 360 512MB = 8 X the ram in just 4 years if the next Xbox comes out in 2012 that would be 7 years that's time enough to upgrade by about 12 = 6GB



PS2 32MB ram to PS3 256MB of ram = 8 X the ram in 6 years

PS2 4MB of VRam to PS3 256MB of Vram = 64 X the Vram in 6 years


if the PS4 comes out in 2012 that would be 6 years 256MB x 8 = 2GB ram

256MB X 64 = 16GB of VRam lol

yeah I know that's not how it goes because the PS2 used Embedded DRAM for the Vram & switched over to a cheaper / slower type of Vram for the PS3 so it's not going to be a 64 X fold this time around but still we can see like 3GB of VRam if the consoles make big jumps like they did last time around.
___________________________________________________________________

 

[LowEndTorque]

If Sony are aiming to have a cost efficient and affordable PS4 I really don't see how it's possible at all to engineer BC into the hardware. From my very limited understanding, it seems that there are only two semi-feasible options for PS3 BC in the PS4.

1. A streaming service like Gaikai/Onlive where disc check or hdd check is used to validate that the customer owns the game and gives them access to it on the streaming library. This would probably be extremely challenging because they would need to add every PS3 game ever to the streaming library for full BC. Not to mention internet speed problems.

2. Develop some sort of emulation software which would probably be next to impossible given the nature of the cell.

Neither one seems likely.

My uneducated guess: No BC at all for the PS4 at launch. The cost of finding a way to put it in would be more than the payoff.

 

[CLEEK]

My feeling is if the PS4 does feature BC, it would be through an accessory rather than built in. As per Sony's patent from a couple of years ago:

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/09/14/sony-patent-backwards-compatibility-device/

 

[Mindlog]

Not really. The onlive console is cheap and has little ram but does all that. Cloud gaming and media playback can all be done with a few megs of ram and a $2 SoC

True enough. I'm just looking at all the ancillary services that Microsoft wants to pack in and their version of 'future-proofing' makes a little more sense to me.

It's been said many times before, but that just struck me with the 'Hey this is what we're doing' again.

 

[GopherD]

My feeling is if the PS4 does feature BC, it would be through an accessory rather than built in. As per Sony's patent from a couple of years ago:

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/09/14/sony-patent-backwards-compatibility-device/

It could still be multiple skus. Cheaper base model and more expensive sku with BC hardware included or emulated. I'm still hopeful that Rigby's 1ppu4spu module is indicating a different approach to BC in general if they are abandoning the Cell.

 

[LowEndTorque]

My feeling is if the PS4 does feature BC, it would be through an accessory rather than built in. As per Sony's patent from a couple of years ago:

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/09/14/sony-patent-backwards-compatibility-device/

This seems to be the best solution, really.

If it was priced affordably and marketed well I think it could be a success. Adding additional features to the accessory like the ability to up-res PS3 games to 1080p or increase frame rate (if this is at all possible) would be a great selling point. Throw in a classic PS3 game or two with the accessory to sweeten the deal and price it at 79.99-99.99 and I'd be happy to buy one.

 

[Mastperf]

No need to use caps to try to make a point. I'm pretty sure they were talking about the game in motion, who would argue which one looks better in pictures??? That's ridiculous.

Besides if you look at that trailer the overall animation is not even that good. BF3 on the PS3 alone has better animation.

The gun and gun handling animation is kinda nice, but all the other ones feel mostly clunky. Look at bullet hit animation and tell me I'm wrong. KZ2 is better than that.

God Of War has better models than that. WAY better.

Alice has better hair and cloth on PC, can't say about consoles because I haven't played it there.

On the trailer shots lack punch, they don't "connect" or feel powerful. It may have looked good (then) but it sure as hell didn't look like it played well. It was just fluid.

If that's were FPSs are headed I don't want to be there. The proper Killzone games looked and specially played miles better than that.

If you truly believe that trailer is still unsurpassed today you're delusional my friend.

The character models alone were over 1 million polygons each in the trailer. On a techical level the KillZone cgi is still unmatched.

 

[Elios83]

If Sony are aiming to have a cost efficient and affordable PS4 I really don't see how it's possible at all to engineer BC into the hardware. From my very limited understanding, it seems that there are only two semi-feasible options for PS3 BC in the PS4.

1. A streaming service like Gaikai/Onlive where disc check or hdd check is used to validate that the customer owns the game and gives them access to it on the streaming library. This would probably be extremely challenging because they would need to add every PS3 game ever to the streaming library for full BC. Not to mention internet speed problems.

2. Develop some sort of emulation software which would probably be next to impossible given the nature of the cell.

Neither one seems likely.

My uneducated guess: No BC at all for the PS4 at launch. The cost of finding a way to put it in would be more than the payoff.

Emulation is a concrete possibility.
Nothing is impossible if they engineer the system with PS3 emulation in mind.
Cell's PPU is just a very simple (and weak) general purpose CPU, it can be easily emulated by whatever the PS4 CPU will be. The SPEs can be emulated using a cluster of shaders in the GPU (which if necessary could be slightly optimized for SPEs emulation at a hardware level with a joint design work by Sony&AMD). SPEs are used mainly for graphics and post-processing purposes to compensate for RSX weaknesses, they are floating point units, basically shaders.
Based on the PS4 GPU rumors it would take 112 shaders simply to match the computational power of the 7 SPEs, since they are emulated let's say that 200-250 shaders are needed. The RSX could take an other 300 shaders. The GPU is supposed to have 1100+ shaders.
Of course it's just a really basic look, things are absolutely not that simple but the numbers are clearly there to allow for PS3 emulation.
Just remember that PS2 emulation was considered to be impossible on PS3 (because the PS3 has less bandwidth than the embedded memory in the PS2 graphics chip has).... but ehy...just look at those emulated PS2 classics on the Store.

With digital platforms like PSN becoming more and more relevant, backwards compatibility is a must have, it's not an option, they can't throw away all the contents they have taken years and lots of efforts to build. They want to sell those to new users in the future and if possible to the same users on different platforms again and again.
PS4 will be absolutely backwards compatibility with the PS3 contents available on the PSN because it's the smartest thing to do by a financial point of view.
The only doubt I have if for PS3 Blu Ray disc games since as I said, they could decide that it's better for them if people re-bought those games digitally if they want to play them on PS4 :/
But that's a market decision.

 

[phosphor112]

While this won't likely happen, I still think the building block thing outlined by Jeff is the best idea.

Have 2 modules that consist of 1PPU 4SPU's, + AMD's SOC. They would be fully compatible for maximum processing. SPU's are great at vector crunching, and other things great at other parts...

Doubt it'll happen though.. if it does.. I'll be glad my PS4 plays PS3 games.

 

[Globox_82]

I am afraid that new slimmer versions of the current gen will only confuse ppl. It makes sense from money making perspective but from gaming one, many will scratch their heads imo. Also i think at leasr one of the big two will announce next gen pre e3 , my money is on sony

 

[missile]

What about the possibility that the entire software stack of the PS4/720
will be based on (software) binary translation (BT), i. e. non-native code
execution, with all the JIT techniques and so on for the main developers?
While abstracting the hardware architecture, i. e. the instruction set
architecture (ISA), Sony and/or MS will have full control of software
development with respect to the hardware, a major leap from just
virtualizing the hardware via the hypervisor within the PS3. Going BT would
also allow these companies to become independent from hardware vendors for
future releases and has the advantage of making backward compatibility a
trivial task.

The march of Sony PlayStation Suite SDK gives just a hint on all of this.
This SDK is based on C#, a binary translated language. But one doesn't has
to use C# or Java to gain independents from hardware. What about a virtual
machines like Dalvik or a derivative of it running on the PS4/720?

Personally, I'm on the hardware-side, programming in C/C++ and Assembler,
but the things mentioned above may have some advantages for the bulk of,
well, game programmer?

 

[iamshadowlark]

What about the possibility that the entire software stack of the PS4/720
will be based on (software) binary translation (BT), i. e. non-native code
execution, with all the JIT techniques and so on for the main developers?
While abstracting the hardware architecture, i. e. the instruction set
architecture (ISA), Sony and/or MS will have full control of software
development with respect to the hardware, a major leap from just
virtualizing the hardware via the hypervisor within the PS3. Going BT would
also allow these companies to become independent from hardware vendors for
future releases and has the advantage of making backward compatibility a
trivial task.

The march of Sony PlayStation Suite SDK gives just a hint on all of this.
This SDK is based on C#, a binary translated language. But one doesn't has
to use C# or Java to gain independents from hardware. What about a virtual
machines like Dalvik or a derivative of it running on the PS4/720?

Personally, I'm on the hardware-side, programming in C/C++ and Assembler,
but the things mentioned above may have some advantages for the bulk of,
well, game programmer?

I have heard developers talking about going software for ages now. Just seems like a pipe dream at this point.

 

[Raistlin]

Wait ... why would Sony support XTV, especially at launch?

 

[StevieP]

Wait ... why would Sony support XTV, especially at launch?

Don't worry, this thread's going to community soon enough with the way we're going xD lol

Spoiler

proud of my beer contribution anyway

 

[Durante]

The SPEs can be emulated using a cluster of shaders in the GPU (which if necessary could be slightly optimized for SPEs emulation at a hardware level with a joint design work by Sony&AMD). SPEs are used mainly for graphics and post-processing purposes to compensate for RSX weaknesses, they are floating point units, basically shaders.
Based on the PS4 GPU rumors it would take 112 shaders simply to match the computational power of the 7 SPEs, since they are emulated let's say that 200-250 shaders are needed. The RSX could take an other 300 shaders. The GPU is supposed to have 1100+ shaders.

That's just completely wrong and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the process of emulation. A calculation like that might make sense when manually porting software from one platform to the other, though it's suspect even then. In general purpose emulation you can't just compare FLOPs and say that "M processing units of B have X FLOPS, while N processing units of A also have X FLOPS, so B can emulate A". It just doesn't work that way, especially if M > N.

 

[dogmaan]

What about the possibility that the entire software stack of the PS4/720
will be based on (software) binary translation (BT), i. e. non-native code
execution, with all the JIT techniques and so on for the main developers?
While abstracting the hardware architecture, i. e. the instruction set
architecture (ISA), Sony and/or MS will have full control of software
development with respect to the hardware, a major leap from just
virtualizing the hardware via the hypervisor within the PS3. Going BT would
also allow these companies to become independent from hardware vendors for
future releases and has the advantage of making backward compatibility a
trivial task.

The march of Sony PlayStation Suite SDK gives just a hint on all of this.
This SDK is based on C#, a binary translated language. But one doesn't has
to use C# or Java to gain independents from hardware. What about a virtual
machines like Dalvik or a derivative of it running on the PS4/720?

Personally, I'm on the hardware-side, programming in C/C++ and Assembler,
but the things mentioned above may have some advantages for the bulk of,
well, game programmer?

If Sony was to use LLVM and Clang as the C++ compiler in the next Playstation SDK, I don't see why they couldn't have, native performance, the benefits of JITC, and forwards compatibility, all at once, just have the games store the LLVM IR(Intermediate Representation) alongside the binary on the disc, on later consoles the IR could be just in time compiled to the target architecture at runtime.

 

[mrklaw]

I am afraid that new slimmer versions of the current gen will only confuse ppl. It makes sense from money making perspective but from gaming one, many will scratch their heads imo. Also i think at leasr one of the big two will announce next gen pre e3 , my money is on sony

if they do any significant repositioning - eg a set top box type design, pushing new services, then they are effectively launching a new product and its more than just a reskin of your existing console.

If you want to do that, then either wait until the next gen comes, and launch lite/full versions, or launch your lite platform this fall, to give some space before the next gen launch.

 

[jeff_rigby]

What about the possibility that the entire software stack of the PS4/720
will be based on (software) binary translation (BT), i. e. non-native code
execution, with all the JIT techniques and so on for the main developers?
While abstracting the hardware architecture, i. e. the instruction set
architecture (ISA), Sony and/or MS will have full control of software
development with respect to the hardware, a major leap from just
virtualizing the hardware via the hypervisor within the PS3. Going BT would
also allow these companies to become independent from hardware vendors for
future releases and has the advantage of making backward compatibility a
trivial task.

The march of Sony PlayStation Suite SDK gives just a hint on all of this.
This SDK is based on C#, a binary translated language. But one doesn't has
to use C# or Java to gain independents from hardware. What about a virtual
machines like Dalvik or a derivative of it running on the PS4/720?

Personally, I'm on the hardware-side, programming in C/C++ and Assembler,
but the things mentioned above may have some advantages for the bulk of,
well, game programmer?

I believe you are describing OpenCL and AMD's HSAIL JIT virtual engine. AMD went one step further and made it an open standard as well as created the HSA Foundation which several Handheld chip makers joined.

Possibles using HSA standards/libraries:

1) Forward compatibility
2) Distributed processing where application code running on a handheld can be alternately run on a PC or game console increasing the battery life on the handheld and increasing the performance. AAA games on handhelds.
3) Sharing processor in the home with a game console using the home PC to increase the level of detail in a game.

This is the 2011 Sony cell vision patent where (PPC+SPU) and APU was used interchangeably with a Java model Virtual engine.

Will Sony stay native code or require game developers to use AMD libraries and program with openCL? The gigabit network chip might give an indication of the path Sony is taking. Gigabit and virtual translation of memory as well as some custom features allow for a hypertransport like sharing of resources over a network.

 

[Ashes]

http://hothardware.com/News/AMD-Talks-Server-Strategy-Teases-Monster-GPU-At-2012-Fusion-Summit/

Next gen stuff at the bottom. Can't wait for these key notes to be available to the general public.

 

[onQ123]

What about the possibility that the entire software stack of the PS4/720
will be based on (software) binary translation (BT), i. e. non-native code
execution, with all the JIT techniques and so on for the main developers?
While abstracting the hardware architecture, i. e. the instruction set
architecture (ISA), Sony and/or MS will have full control of software
development with respect to the hardware, a major leap from just
virtualizing the hardware via the hypervisor within the PS3. Going BT would
also allow these companies to become independent from hardware vendors for
future releases and has the advantage of making backward compatibility a
trivial task.

The march of Sony PlayStation Suite SDK gives just a hint on all of this.
This SDK is based on C#, a binary translated language. But one doesn't has
to use C# or Java to gain independents from hardware. What about a virtual
machines like Dalvik or a derivative of it running on the PS4/720?

Personally, I'm on the hardware-side, programming in C/C++ and Assembler,
but the things mentioned above may have some advantages for the bulk of,
well, game programmer?

this is the same thing I was thinking when I seen the HSA video when the guy was talking about scale-able code that can run on cell phones all the way up to super computers.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Wait ... why would Sony support XTV, especially at launch?

From past conversations I'm pretty sure you are being sarcastic but SteveP I think took it as a literal statement.

If literal, A major reason for the Xbox 720 and a Xbox361 (shown in the paper I cited) was to support XTV. Sony white papers and support for Google TV show they have the same plans and in the paper I linked, Microsoft thought Sony was going to support Google TV on the PS4.

Goggle TV is a form of XTV. XTV will explode on the scene when webkit2 can support it in CE platforms and that should be this September.

With native libraries in the PS3 supporting WEBKIT2 with HTML5 <video> (with the Microsoft-Google-Neflix proposed DRM), SVG and WebGL

1) Full XTV is possible in a refresh PS3 and with RVU in older PS3 models (No HDMI pass-thru) This is the reason for DTCP-IP in the PS3 since first firmware after 3.0.
2) 3-D XMB, Webview windows from the XMB with Rich Internet Applications and also Media rich (both supported by Sony job postings)
3) Sony can finally have commercial IPTV from the Sony store
4) Blu-ray applications

and much much more. The XMB is currently a 2D UI using OpenVG on game console hardware that can support 3D and 3-D which would require Cairo-eGL also necessary to support accelerated Webkit, SVG and WebGL. EGL supports OpenVG and OpenGLES2 which combined = Cairo-eGL support. OpenGLES2 has not been fully implemented on the PS3 as it should be always resident and is a memory hog. Current applications on the PS3 load their own UI support and require more memory than would be left if OpenGLES2 were resident. (Speculation)