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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash
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That was from when the system was going to have 4GB of RAM.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
last time I checked (about 3 minutes ago) the cheapest MARS card was $1,216.60 used. I'm sure Sony remembers how painful PS3 with it's massive losses and "599 US dollars!" was for them. I doubt they will repeat that mistake....
well the documents show the Xbox 720 as having parts 8X more powerful than the Xbox 360 but show it as only being 4 - 6X more powerful for games does that sound like a small amount of overhead?
I think he was asking why he included 2GB of GDDR5 when he had 4GB of GDDR5 on the list.
Proelite
Member
8X from those specs was so generous. 4x game performance from 6x the raw power seems optimistic based on latest insider info.
specialguy
Banned
You change your mind more than a woman. One minute Xbox 3 is a beast, next it's trash.
Anyways I see "latest info" as indicating at least 8X. For example, even only a 1TF GPU, 4X flops as Xenos, probably is 8X due to greater efficiency of modern GPU's. That's not counting the rest of the system.
We also have people trashing the docs as irrelevant/old/obviously wrong in replies to me when it fits their agenda aka no DDR4 etc, so...which is it? Besides, the docs dont say anything like that IIRC. One section says 4-6x games and another part says ~8x perf target 360, another part says 6x, with no explanation made.
The docs as written dont make any sense anyway technically. Maybe the performance targets are still valid despite the rubbish tech specs in the Doc, maybe not.
Pitchforks, bro, pitchforks.
I think it's time to go looking for him.
bgassassin
Member
I focused on the wrong 2GB then.
Gemüsepizza
Member
He talks about Xbox 3 here, not PS4. ^^
specialguy
Banned
Gemüsepizza;39348324 said:
so that makes it ok, obviously.
i'm saying if you're asking what's best there's no point in listing 4gb of gddr5 and 2gb of gddr5, 4gb of gddr5 in the same configuration (as seems to be implied) is clearly going to be superior barring unmentioned technical limitations.
oh hey, this wrinkle has already been sorted, so much for my reading comprehension.
bgassassin
Member
Yeah. I realized the error of my ways.
it's clear to me that it's saying that the performance of the chips will be 8X the Xbox 360 but 4 - 6X will be used for games.
because it will have things like always on DVR & so on so all of the power will not be used for games.
this is not a battle to have the most powerful game console right now MS see AppleTV & GoogleTV as a threat as the preferred media boxes in people living rooms so they are going to make this the best media box as possible & that means being a media server even when you are playing games & letting you record shows & stream XTV to TVs in different rooms in your house, Tablets , Phones , laptops & more.
Adeshina365
Banned
Do you guys think 1.5TFlops of power is enough to produce "true" next gen graphics?
Adeshina365
Banned
Then what are we all complaining about?
Power. People want more power regardless of how much power it may be. That, and fanboys. You can never lose their grip, I suppose.
Anyways, next-gen games will look spectacular.
EDIT: Also unreal expectations. This is mainly due to the technical illiterates (no offense).
It's decidedly mid-range in comparison to the high end chips and is not as massive of a leap as this generation. People are wrongly expecting things like 1080p/60 on high end games and demos that we've seen over the past year or so and aren't aware of the computing power something like that actually takes.
The idea of more power is always honey to every sane person's ear but how much of it did not come from vacuum. It came from Epic.
Last year, Epic ran the Samaritan demo (highly modified version of UE3) with 3 Nvidia 580 cards. Tim Sweeney of epic said that the demo was a vision of how the future mainstream games are to look like with the aid of their future, yet to be fully optimized engine, i.e. UE4. It was at this time, he said that the 2.5Tflops (on nvidia card) of processing power was required to render the Samaritan demo at 30fps@1080p. This year, they ran it with 1 nVidia 680.
So now, with the advent of UE4 which is still being optimized, most people relate next gen performance to extracted from a GPU capable of at least 2.5tflops. It has become the benchmark theoretical figure by with the GPU of either machine is to be judged. Epic later mentioned that things become "interesting" with GPUs capable of pushing past the 1Tflop barrier.
So all in all, we can assume the lower and most likely the upper limit of theoretical flops to ensure next gen shift in graphical fidelity next gen (from Epics point of view).
People want another $600 red selling device.
iamshadowlark
Banned
It is, but we will probably see a bit more.
phosphor112
Banned
I would still like a 2 TFLOP device. 1.5 is great, but... of course 2.0 is better ;]. It seems reasonable to me.
Also, is DDR4 even in production?
What are the timelines and productions values in comparison to other.. *cough* memory types?
Also, is DDR4 even in production?
What are the timelines and productions values in comparison to other.. *cough* memory types?
people just like to complain.
before all this new info was released people here was expecting a Wii like jump in power because of some rumors about PS4 & Xbox Next going low spec with motion controls packed in at a low price like the Wii. & they was calling anyone who talked about 2GB or more crazy & telling us all the reasons why it wasn't possible to get more than 2GB in a console & so on.
{fast forward}
new leaks of PS4 & Xbox Next specs come out bigger jumps than the old rumors but nothing mind blowing, but it was what people was starting to expect because of the old rumors.
{fast forward some more}
the leaks of powerful Next Gen consoles come out & now it's a fight to see which console is the most powerful & it's just back & forth & 1.5TFOPS is only good enough if the other console has 1.4TFOPS & 2GB isn't good enough against 4GB, what's that you say? it's 8GB? OMG PS4 is dead! dead I tell ya!
{next day}
"Microsoft did what? .... they ordered some DDR3 ram from Newegg? what the hell is MS up to?"
(week or so later} Jeff unloads the Xbox 720 documents people see that games are only going to be 4 - 6X the specs of Xbox 360 games & even though they haven't seen what games look like 6X the Xbox 360 they feel it's not good enough because the PS4 leaks said 10X the PS3 even with the 2GB of ram.
& there is other rumors that say Xbox 720 is more powerful so it's just a bunch of back & forth & no matter how powerful these consoles are if the other console is better in some kind of way that means it's not good enough.
that's pretty much what we are dealing with here.
Seems eerily similar to 2004/2005.....
iamshadowlark
Banned
I honestly don't think anybody has a real handle on whats going on. Just rumors and speculation...
dragonelite
Member
I just hope the difference between consoles is like 10~15% something like 360 and Ps3 difference in power. More then 20% and the difference will be too big.
no. 2T or bust
It's starting production at the end of this year at the breathtaking speed of...DDR3-2133.
phosphor112
Banned
Oh wow, not even worth it. Prices will still be expensive but with practically no improvement this early in the stage...
It's the successor to DDR3, of course it's not meant to be GDDR lol.
Regardless, it will be similar (well, slightly faster) than the current DDR3 and the prices would come down over the lifetime of the product (as opposed to the prices of the DDR3 currently in the kits going up over the lifetime of the MS console).
Since die shrinks aren't really that good of a cost reduction method anymore, I'm sure console manufacturers are doing everything they can to ensure that the average selling price of these boxes isn't still almost $300 after 7 years.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Good summary but I think we are all, at the same time assuming too much from and missing what the Xbox 720 documents were being used to sell to non-technical types. In order:
1) Cost, it will be cheap because it's ONE SOC, no second GPU, ONE bank of memory.
2) Memory speed is an issue which they probably mentioned during the presentation thus the mention of DDR4 that didn't exist at that time and common L3 eDRAM greater than 32meg.
Best most cost effective way to satisfy both above is to have all memory in the SOC and DDR3 ultra wide I/O at that. DDR3 memory is too big to put 4 or 8 gig inside the SOC and it's doubtful that 2 gig will fit but it might be possible for 2 512 meg custom DDR3 ultra wide I/O packages to fit inside a SOC. This might happen with the Oban SOC for PS3.5 and Xbox365.
Given it won't be possible to fit more than 1 512 meg (maybe less) DDR3 ultra wide I/O in a SOC due to the GPU and CPU for next generation taking too much space, I expect the majority of memory outside the SOC. If there is no second GPU then it won't be GDDR5.
Memory Interface and interface speeds are designed with standards matching their common use. Combined trace length to multiple chips impacts the voltage used which impacts the drive current needed. Game console volume is large enough that custom interface and packaging can be used. Micron has stated that they are producing custom and simi-custom memory for game consoles this generation starting with 2012 which means PS3.5 and Xbox365 and includes Xbox720 and PS4.
What does this mean, 256 bit buss probably but not built of 4 DDR3 interfaces, one custom interface. Low drive power from the SOC which means the external memory will have buffer drivers built in which insure lower swing voltage needed. Minimum number of chips external (stacked memory packages) to reduce the total trace length to memory. Combine all this and the clock speed for memory can be higher. Semi-Custom DDR3 memory can be used external to the SOC and custom DDR3 can be used internally.
DRAM memory is large because it has a capacitor that stores a charge and that is what is used as memory. Other types of memory are coming that can be shrunk and fit in SOCs. That's coming for 2015-2016.
Oh and the rumors of 2 8000 series GPUs in the next Xbox 720 is probably to insure higher yields and will apply to the PS4 as well. Split the large GPU up into two packages, pre-test and then assemble them 2.5D in the SOC. We are dealing with the same manufacturer AMD and the same rules of physics so HEAT is the limiting factor. Both will pack as much as they can into one SOC and that is exactly the same given the same GPU. There is still a small chance that there are different CPUs, PPC for Xbox and X86 for PS4 but it would be stupid to choose a less efficient CPU as the limiting factor is still heat. Is a PPC more efficient given more general use and branch prediction with prefetch for GPUs?
jeff_rigby
Banned
And thats' why I look for more than one source. Ask Raistlin, the Xbox 361 SOC is going to be used in multiple Microsoft projects and they appear to be more aggressive in finding new markets. Comcast cable company for instance is source for Xbox project 10 and Xbox Infinity (Xfinity) rumors.
The Xbox 365 (Xbox361 XTV with HDMI pass-thru) and PS3.5 (XTV with HDMI pass-thru) are HUGE for both Sony and Microsoft. Both are going to have Kinect interface, both are going to support voice and gesture recognition, both are going to support HTML5 apps with browser desktop, both are going to support Skype.
Both are going to use Playready DRM, both are going to have a secure trustzone. Both are going to support Augmented Reality, both are going to support an ecosystem by serving and interfacing with Handhelds, both might re-serve media with DRM outside the home and for sure inside the home as at least Sony has DTCP-IP since just after Firmware 3.00 but planned before the release of firmware 3.0.
800 million new Internet connected consumers from now till 2016 and both Sony and Microsoft want a share of that market. We are talking 10's of billions in music and Move IPTV streaming not to mention other services. This is why the expansion of PSN and Microsoft is expanding their services. This is why there has been a browser in the PS3 and Sony blu-ray players and TVs, this is why Sony had a Google TV and Google TV blu-ray player. XTV is going to launch in a big way after webkit2 can support HTML5 <video> and that is this Sept.
It's not just games! It's not just a game console! Open your eyes and see the big picture! What's coming at the end of this year has to be looked at with 800 million potential customers in mind not the 60 million PS3 owners of which only more than half are connected. This is why the Digitimes rumor had Sony expecting to sell 20 million PS4 consoles in 2012. Again, if it's to launch in 2012, the author of the rumor ASSUMED it was a PS4 because it's a new SOC not a recognizable CELL CPU.
I'll take a ban bet on the Xbox 361 or Xbox 365 or whatever coming this Christmas season because there are 4 cites for it. There is only one for the PS3.5 and my speculation so I'm 90% certain of that.
systemfehler
Member
DRM, probably no MKV support, Cinavia, nearly no content in Europe, ...
Don't see how that will be such a big hit compared to Apple products, Google Q and other existing solutions. So I don't see how MS/Sony will invest so much time, effort and money for a product with a 1 year life cycle.
Straight up- which is more powerful as of now - Orbis or Durango? ...And - by how much?
manzo
Member
No idea, everything is still speculation.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Power!!! They're hoping their fav console will best power in every parts. Main weapon for internet war.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Xbox 361 and PS3.5 @ $199 including Kinect and PS4 and Xbox 720 at $ 399 or more. Only AAA Gamers will buy the more expensive more powerful next generation but nearly everyone can use the PS3.5 and Xbox 361. They will have a much longer than 1 year life and act as a bridge for many to migrate up to PS4.
From BY3D and very good find:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1653503&postcount=31 said:
lol wow. hopefully sarcasm?
Cyborg
Member
Nope and you feel it to! Maybe not the end but it will do some damage. You have to admit that 2GB isnt enough! Its enough if you want to compete with Wii U!
jeff_rigby
Banned
From BY3D and very good find:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1653503&postcount=31 said:
two hints in firmware v4.20 that a new console design is imminent: Not in it'self proof but add it to my speculation and the Digitimes rumor.
PS3 flash drive for the Ultra Slim
Sounds like they might do a PS3 slim slim to cut costs even more that can come with a price reduction, but a PS3.5 or 361 or whatever, seems like a silly choice just before you start a new generation that you have spent a lot of money on to bring new hardware and features just to offload some to the current gen.
How can anyone answer this when we don't know anything concrete about either console?
Because it makes no sense. =p
Graphics Horse
Member
I can believe Sony are working on a super slim PS3 with small ssd. No problems there.
That thing about a PS3 Super Slim is a very good find.
Yoshida said it was a possibility for the future back at E3.
If the hints are true it could feature a top loading disc drive (like PSone and Pstwo) and the hard drive might be removed in favour of non-expandable internal solid state memory. Of course that would also mean a price cut to 199$.
Yoshida said it was a possibility for the future back at E3.
If the hints are true it could feature a top loading disc drive (like PSone and Pstwo) and the hard drive might be removed in favour of non-expandable internal solid state memory. Of course that would also mean a price cut to 199$.
Yeah. I find that a lot easier to buy than a complete reworking from Microsoft on the 360, which is also rumored.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
the people have to know!
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