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PS5 details get a full Digital Foundry analysis

R600

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Jun 17, 2019
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How do you fit 8 core Zen 2 + 5700 + RT cores + Neural cores into that??

Not to mention it would be 70mm2 smaller than estimated scarlett SOC.
You fit it without a problem.

8 Zen 2 cores are 74mm² with full L3 cache. Having 1/4th of cache gets that chip to ~35mm², as more then half of die is reserved for cache.

RT cores in Nvidia cards take 8% of CU (not total GPU die), while Navi CUs use ~90mm² of total 251mm² die.

So even doubling RT per CU space vs Nvidia, you would only use additional ~20mm² over full Navi ~ 270mm².

Since PS5 would have 256 bit bus, and not 320 bit like Scarlet, you would save ~16mm² there.

Full size, Zen2 (1/4 of cache) + 40CU Navi (includes IOs) + RT solution that takes double space that of Nvidia on 256 bit bus die ~ 305mm². Still left with die space...

My thinking before Flute was, no way can they fit everything in there at 316mm. But with Flute having 1/4 of Zen2 cache, it all made sense. You could probably fit in 48CUs in 316mm² IF RT cores are similar percentage of CUs as in Nvidia case.

Compared to Scarlet, you would already dave 16mm² on smaller bus, but with faster memory you would hit similar BW. Perhaps Scarlet has 1/2 of L3 cache and then, its pretty much same amount of CUs and RT cores but with wider bus and slower memory, as well as more cache for CPU.

Would make for great chip in PS5 case IMO, although Scarlet would be having a bit more headroom IF really required.

BTW I dont know where you guys got 70mm² + for Scarlet. That would make it almost 400mm², and I think, based on die shot - its closer to 350mm².
 
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John117

Neo Member
Apr 6, 2019
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RTX wont be used in PS5 which is a good thing. This is an Nvidia marketing scheme and a terrible version of ray tracing.

RT (Ray tracing) will be used in PS5 which is a great thing. From what I understand there will be dedicated hardware for ray tracing!
Excuse me man, I wrong, I mean RT tech not RTX ( prop NVIDIA)- Also NVIDIA has hardware dedicated for RT with RT CORE. However I want to see technology of AMD for RT, then we can speak of NVIDIA :D :D
 

Romulus

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Mar 21, 2019
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This is exciting. Devs were pushing out some pretty nice running games on a CPU less than an I3 Pentium lmao.
 
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Darius87

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Jul 16, 2018
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There isn't an AMD card that can compete with the 2080 Super. The Best card is a (9.7 tflop 5700 XT) at $400 so that is all we got for comparison. I realize it isn't a direct comparison.
not yet it will be.
Price per power isn't THAT different.
it is, consoles in nature are much better in performance then equalent pc cards.
Wait are you trying to say a 120 APU will have the same performance as a 700 GPU? I mean even when you remove the Nvidia tax and retail markup I just don't see how that is possible.

If you were talking about the 5700 XT I think you would be close but not a 2080 Super.
🤦‍♂️ goddamit, forget retail price! 2080 super probably cost around 200$ to make if not less, and even then you compare APU vs GPU, unified memory vs not unified memory, optimization vs brute force, one configuration vs many configurations that advantage for consoles, and that's why PS5 perform like 2080 super or even better with less actuall Tflops it always been this way always will.
 
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John117

Neo Member
Apr 6, 2019
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You fit it without a problem.

8 Zen 2 cores are 74mm² with full L3 cache. Having 1/4th of cache gets that chip to ~35mm², as more then half of die is reserved for cache.

RT cores in Nvidia cards take 8% of CU (not total GPU die), while Navi CUs use ~90mm² of total 251mm² die.

So even doubling RT per CU space vs Nvidia, you would only use additional ~20mm² over full Navi ~ 270mm².

Since PS5 would have 256 bit bus, and not 320 bit like Scarlet, you would save ~16mm² there.

Full size, Zen2 (1/4 of cache) + 40CU Navi (includes IOs) + RT solution that takes double space that of Nvidia on 256 bit bus die ~ 305mm². Still left with die space...

My thinking before Flute was, no way can they fit everything in there at 316mm. But with Flute having 1/4 of Zen2 cache, it all made sense. You could probably fit in 48CUs in 316mm² IF RT cores are similar percentage of CUs as in Nvidia case.

Compared to Scarlet, you would already dave 16mm² on smaller bus, but with faster memory you would hit similar BW. Perhaps Scarlet has 1/2 of L3 cache and then, its pretty much same amount of CUs and RT cores but with wider bus and slower memory, as well as more cache for CPU.

Would make for great chip in PS5 case IMO, although Scarlet would be having a bit more headroom IF really required.

BTW I dont know where you guys got 70mm² + for Scarlet. That would make it almost 400mm², and I think, based on die shot - its closer to 350mm².
It would be cool see the price of new console.
 

Racer43

Member
Jun 14, 2018
354
297
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You fit it without a problem.

8 Zen 2 cores are 74mm² with full L3 cache. Having 1/4th of cache gets that chip to ~35mm², as more then half of die is reserved for cache.

RT cores in Nvidia cards take 8% of CU (not total GPU die), while Navi CUs use ~90mm² of total 251mm² die.

So even doubling RT per CU space vs Nvidia, you would only use additional ~20mm² over full Navi ~ 270mm².

Since PS5 would have 256 bit bus, and not 320 bit like Scarlet, you would save ~16mm² there.

Full size, Zen2 (1/4 of cache) + 40CU Navi (includes IOs) + RT solution that takes double space that of Nvidia on 256 bit bus die ~ 305mm². Still left with die space...

My thinking before Flute was, no way can they fit everything in there at 316mm. But with Flute having 1/4 of Zen2 cache, it all made sense. You could probably fit in 48CUs in 316mm² IF RT cores are similar percentage of CUs as in Nvidia case.

Compared to Scarlet, you would already dave 16mm² on smaller bus, but with faster memory you would hit similar BW. Perhaps Scarlet has 1/2 of L3 cache and then, its pretty much same amount of CUs and RT cores but with wider bus and slower memory, as well as more cache for CPU.

Would make for great chip in PS5 case IMO, although Scarlet would be having a bit more headroom IF really required.

BTW I dont know where you guys got 70mm² + for Scarlet. That would make it almost 400mm², and I think, based on die shot - its closer to 350mm².

Isnt much of Zen 2`s improved performance reliant on that big cache? If Flute is a laptop APU that makes much more sense.

392 mm2 I think Scarlett was rumored to be.
 

ethomaz

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Mar 19, 2013
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How do you fit 8 core Zen 2 + 5700 + RT cores + Neural cores into that??

Not to mention it would be 70mm2 smaller than estimated scarlett SOC.
1/4 cache put Zen 2 at close to half size.
The others things fits in that size.

The Scarlett estimation has big margin of error... now B3D is putting it close to 350mm2 than 380mm2.
 
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R600

Member
Jun 17, 2019
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Isnt much of Zen 2`s improved performance reliant on that big cache? If Flute is a laptop APU that makes much more sense.

392 mm2 I think Scarlett was rumored to be.
Some of it, yes. Flute is APU with 18Gbps memory chips in benchmark. Its GPU ID also fits with Gonzalo (rumored PS5). Interestingly enough, both Flute and Gonzalo are codenames originating from Shakespeare.

There is 0% that there will be 8 core laptop APU coupled with high performing Navi GPU and 16GB of fastest RAM available (yea, faster then one found in latest Nvidia Super cards).

That Scarlet die size is taken from b3d. It was several times changed by now and falls in line with Xbox One X now ~360mm² max.
 

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
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1/4 cache sounds like a disaster for the CPU. At best it might be 1/2, no less than that.

Zen 2 doubled the L3 cache to counter increased DRAM latency and we know current-gen consoles (GDDR5/DDR3) have ~200ns of latency.

I hope in a Chip for AI <3
Navi GPGPU supports INT8 acceleration, which will be useful for neural inferencing. Why would you need an "AI chip"?

We know for a fact the PS5 will support machine learning for next-gen AI.

I think people really underestimate the GPU when they assume the CPU is 100% responsible for the AI jump. It doesn't work like that, at least not in closed platforms like consoles.
 

Journey

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Aug 18, 2014
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Isnt much of Zen 2`s improved performance reliant on that big cache? If Flute is a laptop APU that makes much more sense.

392 mm2 I think Scarlett was rumored to be.

Whoa, if this rumor is true, then that's a pretty significant difference, could mean more compute units.
 

John117

Neo Member
Apr 6, 2019
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1/4 cache sounds like a disaster for the CPU. At best it might be 1/2, no less than that.

Zen 2 doubled the L3 cache to counter increased DRAM latency and we know current-gen consoles (GDDR5/DDR3) have ~200ns of latency.


Navi GPGPU supports INT8 acceleration, which will be useful for neural inferencing. Why would you need an "AI chip"?

We know for a fact the PS5 will support machine learning for next-gen AI.

I think people really underestimate the GPU when they assume the CPU is 100% responsible for the AI jump. It doesn't work like that, at least not in closed platforms like consoles.

Yep, curious to see NAVI apport for AI. CPU is not 100% resposible but is foundamental per AI, don't forget.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
Jan 18, 2019
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I'm not really into all that technical stuff, i just hope it play games at 60 fps
Why do so many people assume that?

Every game on every console has the option of either sacrificing visual quality in order to go for 60 fps, or go apeshit with the visuals by sacrificing framerate and locking on the infamous 30 fps. There are always going to be devs who would like their game to look as pretty as possible at the cost of framerate. Even the PS10 won't be able to go 16K/60fps because by then the models will be made out of billions of polygons and framerate will need to be sacrificed in order for the game to look that good.

Did the PS3 play all games at 720p/60fps? No.

Did the PS4 Pro play all games at 1080p/60fps? No.

Will the PS5 play all games at 4K/60fps? No.
 
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Hobbygaming

Neo Member
Sep 30, 2019
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so, no dedicated hardware cores for ray tracing confirmed.
Naughty Dog are Ice team.


that's most likely, it would make it around 9.2 Tflops which a bit disapointing i've expected around 11 Tflops

what if there won't be pro version? i don't think sony will chase 8K in games this time.

i'm sure they will for scarlett, that's how you lose your dignity.
Not all of Naughty Dog is a part of ICE
 

Hobbygaming

Neo Member
Sep 30, 2019
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ND will be Last of Us 2 remaster
Insomniac will be Spiderman remaster
Sucker Punch is Ghost of Tsushima remaster
Bend is Days Gone remaster
Santa Monica is God of War remaster
Polyphony is GT remaster

That will be the launch line up of PS5. Not bad, but you know, it's mostly yesterday's food
I'm just going to assume this is a joke Lol
 

kretos

Neo Member
Oct 2, 2019
24
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105
Why do so many people assume that?

Every game on every console has the option of either sacrificing visual quality in order to go for 60 fps, or go apeshit with the visuals by sacrificing framerate and locking on the infamous 30 fps. There are always going to be devs who would like their game to look as pretty as possible at the cost of framerate. Even the PS10 won't be able to go 16K/60fps because by then the models will be made out of billions of polygons and framerate will need to be sacrificed in order for the game to look that good.

Did the PS3 play all games at 720p/60fps? No.

Did the PS4 Pro play all games at 1080p/60fps? No.

Will the PS5 play all games at 4K/60fps? No.
I would be happy with 1080p/ 60 fps mode
 
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ethomaz

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Mar 19, 2013
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Not all of Naughty Dog is a part of ICE
Actually some developer from Naughty Dog are part of the ICE Team.
But the ICE Team is located at Naughty Dog.

Naughty Dog is home to the ICE Team, one of Sony’s World Wide Studios central technology groups. The ICE Team focuses on creating core graphics technologies used by all PlayStation developers. The ICE Team has been involved with the development of the PlayStation®4 since its inception, including hardware design, graphics libraries, performance analysis tools, and developer support (hardware evangelism).
 
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Hobbygaming

Neo Member
Sep 30, 2019
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Actually some developer from Naughty Dog are part of the ICE Team.
The ICE Team is a group of the best developers across all Sony's studios.
I know that I was just saying that not all of Naughty Dog are members of ICE :)
 
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DeepEnigma

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Dec 3, 2013
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No, they are still MS shill like always, its just they started to realize that PS5 is more capable than Scarlett so they toned down their bias a little bit.
Gotta get the "fan noise" jabs in though. Every. Single. Article I saw him talk about the PS5 so far.

Do people all play their games at
volumes?


I too hope it is quieter for others, which I think it will be going by the patents, but I don't have an issue with my launch PS4 unit stays quiet for me. Clean it once every 2 years or so.
 
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bitbydeath

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RTX wont be used in PS5 which is a good thing. This is an Nvidia marketing scheme and a terrible version of ray tracing.

RT (Ray tracing) will be used in PS5 which is a great thing. From what I understand there will be dedicated hardware for ray tracing!
The 5900 and possibly the 5800 are expected to be the RT cards.

So we can expect one of those in next-gen consoles.
 
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demigod

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Gotta get the "fan noise" jabs in though. Every. Single. Article I saw him talk about the PS5 so far.

Do people all play their games at
volumes?


I too hope it is quieter for others, which I think it will be going by the patents, but I don't have an issue with my launch PS4 unit. Stays quiet for me. Clean it once every 2 years or so.
Who's talking? Yeah i don't get this fan noise.
 
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FranXico

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Gotta get the "fan noise" jabs in though. Every. Single. Article I saw him talk about the PS5 so far.
Also, read the article again and see if he ever mentions the first Wired interview. No, he doesn't, he tries to imply that "MS said it first".
But yeah, these things are typical of Richard.
 

Negotiator

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I'm going to say no. That would have been the easiest thing for Cerny to confirm.
We just don't know if it will have dedicated RT cores (like nVidia Turing) or a more flexible approach (like the rumored hybrid AMD patent).


Just wait until Feb 2020 for Cerny's greatness to explain it to us. :) 4 months left...
 

Journey

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No, they are still MS shill like always, its just they started to realize that PS5 is more capable than Scarlett so they toned down their bias a little bit.

Makes sense, a smaller die size is usually indicative of being more powerful.


Oh wait...

It might be the other way around, I always forget. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Mass Shift

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Jun 12, 2019
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We just don't know if it will have dedicated RT cores (like nVidia Turing) or a more flexible approach (like the rumored hybrid AMD patent).


Just wait until Feb 2020 for Cerny's greatness to explain it to us. :) 4 months left...
It's going to be one hell of a wait. But whatever they've done is going to be good.

I mean if you think about it, developers were able to get Jaguar and Sea Island processors to do some amazing things. Imagine what they will be able to do with Zen2 and Navi. Seriously, they might take these assets and give us all nuclear power! ☢ 😆
 
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demigod

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Makes sense, a smaller die size is usually indicative of being more powerful.


Oh wait...

It might be the other way around, I always forget. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
It makes more sense to go off by what "developers" are saying instead of guesswork from a video by forum goers.
 
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Sosokrates

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I'm beginning to think the PS5 GPU is going to be 36 active cu's clocked at 1800-2000mhz.

I think scarlett will go with 44active cu's clocked at a more modest 1600 - 1700mhz
 
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