reptilescorpio
Member
Was very true around the time of the Double Fine pitch, Kickstarter said as much.
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Rab Florence Piece on Industry Vets Killing Kickstarter
- Thread starter Gowans
- Start date
Strongly disagree with this, mentioned my own scenario earlier in the thread. Big names = new users signing up to Kickstarter = more potential investors for future projects that otherwise would not be there at all.
I think that's pretty much the whole point of Kickstarter, although I wouldn't put it quite so hyperbolically.
Ok. I just think £15 for a copy of the game or £50 for three copies is fine. Of course, that's assuming the game is good, but the same applies to all kickstarted games regardless of who's running the project.
OP made me think of this thread. I think it's pretty silly that people like Molyneux are exploiting Kickstarter.
EternalGamer
Banned
I think Florences's argument is well taken where Molyneux is concerned. And certainly a few others like Braben. They ARE cynical attempts at cash ins.
But he over plays it when he implies it is a concern with well known devs. Some of them have legitimate passion projects with legitimate difficulty getting them funded. I believed Schaefer and Double Fine when they made that argument. I believed it for Wasteland 2. It really is a case by case basis.
But Florences point is a good one. We should be cynical about these pitches. And if there doesnt seem to be legitimate passion and a legitimate reason they couldnt get traditional fnding, then their bluff should be called.
I mean can ANYONE watch that pitch for Godus and not see it as manipulation? These are dudes that could not make a game where you literally do nothing more than chip away at a box. But because Molyneux is there I am supposed to want to give them money?
But he over plays it when he implies it is a concern with well known devs. Some of them have legitimate passion projects with legitimate difficulty getting them funded. I believed Schaefer and Double Fine when they made that argument. I believed it for Wasteland 2. It really is a case by case basis.
But Florences point is a good one. We should be cynical about these pitches. And if there doesnt seem to be legitimate passion and a legitimate reason they couldnt get traditional fnding, then their bluff should be called.
I mean can ANYONE watch that pitch for Godus and not see it as manipulation? These are dudes that could not make a game where you literally do nothing more than chip away at a box. But because Molyneux is there I am supposed to want to give them money?
The Friendly Monster
Member
And I'm not particularly comfortable with it. It's not true for every Kickstarter though, I think it can be a good tool for discovery of new and artists and inventors.
But you can't assume the game will be good, it's a game of totally unknown quality, and the company having a lower incentive than normal to build a compelling product isn't a promising factor.
CecilRousso
Member
Of course they can find publishers. Tim Schafer and Double Fine have worked with lots, and is working with at least one now - SEGA for The Cave.
As is Obsidian - THQ for the South Park game.
If your question is more; would they be able to find publishers for games like Double Fine Adventure and Project Eternity, and keep their ip? Most likely not.
No. This project isn't presented as "We need to see actual support from people so we can get more funding from a publisher". They haven't even talked to a publisher and if they are planing to do so after being funded, it's a really bad move to not disclose this.
So yes, this is about the funding.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Oh no! An opinion!
You're still thinking it's about funding. It's not about getting a publisher either.
It's about taking a different approach to development where they have more freedom.
The Friendly Monster
Member
And the fans taking on all the risk. What a consumer-friendly move.
Molyneux could easily get 450k from his own bank account or VC funding, wouldn't even have to be a traditional publisher, but why should he bother with Kickstarter?
reptilescorpio
Member
For some reason I thought The Cave was picked up because of the success of the Kickstarter led SEGA to believe there was a market for adventure games? I might be getting my timeliness mixed up though.
My point is if he wants his perfect funding website, he should start his own. Or become the CEO of Kickstarter. Until then, the only thing Kickstarter is killing is Rab Florence's dream of a perfect funding platform.
EternalGamer
Banned
I think Florence point is rather that the audience should be more skeptical.
CecilRousso
Member
No, not all. A lot, but not all. The developers are taking a risk with their companies, their jobs and their reputation.
The Cave was presented with SEGA as a publisher about 5-6 months after the kickstarter, but The Cave was far into production by the time they announced the kickstarter, and Double Fine wouldn´t have done that without a publisher. The whole kickstarter idea was something they came up with when a publisher cancelled another game for them, and they decided to try this anstead of letting people go.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Right, I don't think he was saying that these big-budget games are a financial problem for Kickstarter as a company. It was about his ideal of what the service should be. That doesn't invalidate his opinion until he starts up a rival platform.
Fair enough, I was being hyperbolic there.
Haunted
Member
http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/the-year-of-the-game
The attention the DF Adventure has brought has been a tremendous boost for all game projects on Kickstarter.
EternalGamer
Banned
Yeah, fuck that Republique kickstarter. I got suckered into supporting that shit because of all the game writers wanting to help out their buddy. Ryan Payton's pitch about how he was unwillingly giving a dollar to a highway toll while questioning how he was going to get people to give him half a million for his game made my toes curl. It was a statement of amazing narcissism. As was his entire games premise about an evil big brother government. It is the most cliche shit ever but coming from Halo he pitched it as a game that "means something."
Jesus I am ashamed of myself for giving that project money.
I read his point as "the audience should be more skeptical of Kickstarter projects from established developers", which is flawed to say the least. He also has a flawed expectation from Kickstarter - that it should only be used as the last recourse.
grimshawish
Banned
Fair points. I agree with a lot of it - but feel it holds true for people who are not part of the industry as well.
Why exactly shouldn't any investor expect a cut of the profits?
I don't understand the mentality that a kickstarter is a pre-order. Look at Ouya, they too everyones cash and are now trying to leverage themselves as some ridiculous mass market product in need of more investment. The original 'investors' are the least of their concerns, all they care about is that 3 million allows them to take wages from day 1!
Kickstarters should sell shares or even bonds to the business.
Something of actual value.
Share the risk.
Why exactly shouldn't any investor expect a cut of the profits?
I don't understand the mentality that a kickstarter is a pre-order. Look at Ouya, they too everyones cash and are now trying to leverage themselves as some ridiculous mass market product in need of more investment. The original 'investors' are the least of their concerns, all they care about is that 3 million allows them to take wages from day 1!
Kickstarters should sell shares or even bonds to the business.
Something of actual value.
Share the risk.
It builds a community. He wants heavy involvement from players in designing the game.
And no, don't take that as meaning he wants to be lazy and work less.
EternalGamer
Banned
Well, I would agree that established devs are not the only ones that can engage in cynical cash grabs but they are the ones that can do it most easily.
As to your second point, I kind of agree. There is definitely merit in letting devs have more control over their production but that is given that they are people worth trusting and ones that have a legitimate passion for what they are creating.
I do not at all think any of that is true of Godus, which is what inspired Florence's essay.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Seems needlessly cynical and aggressive. F you? Really? Fact is these vets are actually making games that major pubs don't want... Why else would they leave the comfort zone of AAA publishing?
grimshawish
Banned
If it were someone who'd successfully kickstarted previous projects and profited well; I bet this article wouldn't have been written.
Despite the concerns applying just as well.
CecilRousso
Member
I think he also targeted this because of some weak pitches. And he´s right about that. Most of them should show more.
If you look at the prototypes you get to test if you contribute to the Double Fine Amnesia Fortnight Bundle here - http://www.humblebundle.com/double-fine, you will se that Double Fine can manage to produce 4 playable prototypes in two weeks.
There is no reason that these kickstarters shouldn´t be able to offer the same when they start.
I mean, lok at Lee Pettys pitch for autonomous, the video, the description and the PDF - http://www.humblebundle.com/double-fine#autonomous
And look at his postings in the forum - http://www.doublefine.com/forums/viewthread/7882/
This is at least on the level as most kickstarters I´ve seen, in many cases even better, and that´s even before they have started doing the prototype.
If Rabs blog is trying to say that we should raise the bar for what expect from the pitches, I absolutely agree.
EternalGamer
Banned
That is sometimes true. But can you really watch the Godus pitch and come to that conclusion?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus
My read is that they couldnt find a publisher naive enough to support that project.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Sorry for being sceptical, but I doubt that coming from the mouth of Peter Molyneux. He is notorious for not even wanting heavy involvement from his team in designing a game.
At worst it's a lie, at best it's about gathering playtesters.
Because there is free money on the table and far less accountability.
SturokBGD
Member
I cannot agree with this article because without crowd funding Ginger Wildheart would have have left the music business and probably be scraping by cleaning toilets for a living and that would have been an absolute travesty considering what actually happened with his 555% album thanks to Pledge Music. Let me put it this way, the guy clearly earned the right to pledge his music.
I don't really get what Molyneux is doing on Kickstarter, though.
I don't really get what Molyneux is doing on Kickstarter, though.
He's definitely not saying/implying that. I also don't like that he's treating Kickstarter way as something that doesn't involve much "struggle". The real struggle begins after the funding is secured.
A string of loaded questions.
As for "raising the bar" for Kickstarter games, that's sure to happen as time passes. People don't have bottomless pockets of money, so they'll become more and more selective.
I think you're correct that this is an attempt to offload risk, rather than a last resort to get funding, but I think there is some benefit to that. Frankly, game development is a shitty business to be in right now. The financial risks are huge, and they often don't pay off. If I had the money to develop a game, that's certainly not how I would invest it.
Kickstarter is a petition that means something; a way to determine if an audience is there, and to connect with that audience. It's easy to see why this would be appealing for reasons beyond cynical "greed." It actually lends clarity to something that is presently very obscure.
I also disagree with this notion that these "celebrity" Kickstarters are hurting anyone else on the platform. When these projects succeed, they bring more people in every single time, and they end up backing other projects. You can see it getting bigger and bigger. They're not "soaking up all the money," that's not how it works. Molyneaux and Braben are also not doing fantastically well. It seems like people are interested enough to give them the minimum they are asking for and not much more.
EternalGamer
Banned
Well, then you get the important part of Florence's article.
Again, I think the only flaw in his article is that it should take a tighter aim and less generalization. There is still a point to be extrapolated but he pushes the extrapolation rather than the specific.
Majukun
Member
I think that in the end quality will be the judge.
if both games made by veterans and those made by newcomers will meet expectations and promises,i can see both types of funding surviving on the long run (FTL was made by 2 newcomers and it's still an incredible game,so from now on i will not have any problem in backing projects from newcomers if they are promising),along with kickstarter
if both games made by veterans and those made by newcomers will meet expectations and promises,i can see both types of funding surviving on the long run (FTL was made by 2 newcomers and it's still an incredible game,so from now on i will not have any problem in backing projects from newcomers if they are promising),along with kickstarter
EternalGamer
Banned
FTL is absolutely the best thing to come out of kickstarter thus far. Incredible game.
Does anyone follow Rab on twitter? I did for a week after Doritosgate. And I stopped like a week after. The guy is weird as fuck. Tweeting pictures where he is almost nude, about how much he wants to ****. The guy wrote one article that stirred us up, but he is no god of games journalism. Guy is a creepy weirdo
CecilRousso
Member
I also stopped. He´s weird, indeed.
EternalGamer
Banned
These posts just made me want to follow him. I love "weird" people. Sure beat boring people.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I think he may be right, but we're we do put the line. When a dev could easily go to a publisher but his original vision may be altered, the he should ask money or not? When a dev has enough money for his game but going kickstarter could made the game he originally enviosioned without money rstrictions?
I think in the case of Molyneux is clear that he dosn't have any need to do it.
He could have done that...without asking money.
I think in the case of Molyneux is clear that he dosn't have any need to do it.
He could have done that...without asking money.
If anything the devs have even more of an incentive than normal to build a compelling product, as without publisher interference, the final quality of the game rests entirely on them and they will be blamed in full if it doesn't end up solid.
If they create a disappointing game then consumer trust in them will go down, accordingly, and I'm pretty sure they don't want that.
Agreed. He's actually almost saying the exact opposite, and wanting people to lower the bar on the pitches. These projects are too good for Kickstarter, and the people too famous. It leaves a bad taste in his mouth because Kickstarter is getting bigger projects, and more valuable talent using it to fund projects, not less.
His entire argument is that he wants Kickstarter to be the pell grants of gaming development. Poor, impoverished developers with no other chance at developing should be the only ones that use Kickstarter.
Is this idea weird? No, there are countless income/need based funding sources for nearly everything in society. There's food stamps and food shelters for the impoverished, scholarships for people with high grades or low income. If anyone wants to set up a site specifically for helping poor game developers complete their projects, that's a totally worthy endeavor.
But the thing is ... that's not what Kickstarter is! It's just crowdfunding. If people like it, they can fund it. He's blaming Kickstarter for something they never really claimed to be doing, and telling Molyneux to fuck himself because Rab is kind of mistakenly placing a bunch of illusory ideals on Kickstarter that really don't exist.
His ending lines about "struggle" being a necessary qualification for using Kickstarter makes no sense. Does Kickstarter ask for your tax returns, household income, or bank statements to determine if you are financially eligible to use the site? No.
If he applied this same logic, then the FTL devs would be guilty of abusing Kickstarter as well. Didn't they ask for $10,000 initially? There's at least two people who worked on it. They could each have gotten $5,000 a piece if they struggled even a tiny bit. I assume they own cars. His rant is pretty much baseless when you break it down, and hypocritical.
Yeh I did the same.
I didn't know he was biglime and unfollowed.
He's as pretentious as the people he attacks. Consolevania sucks.
While i'm ontop, Molyneux is probably one of my most hated "gaming personalities". The crying and suicide threats were a joke. It's about time he realised people are bored of his bullshit. I was bored of it after bullfrog closed up when he sold out and his peers got an EA dildo up their backsides while he rode off into the sunset and then did the same thing with MS.
Dude has enough contacts to get funding and do whatever he wants. That he sells out has nothing to do with publishers pushing him.
I didn't know he was biglime and unfollowed.
He's as pretentious as the people he attacks. Consolevania sucks.
While i'm ontop, Molyneux is probably one of my most hated "gaming personalities". The crying and suicide threats were a joke. It's about time he realised people are bored of his bullshit. I was bored of it after bullfrog closed up when he sold out and his peers got an EA dildo up their backsides while he rode off into the sunset and then did the same thing with MS.
Dude has enough contacts to get funding and do whatever he wants. That he sells out has nothing to do with publishers pushing him.
You get this high quality material:
"@robertflorence: Hey @BarackObama good luck! I am #NUDEFOROBAMA tonight! http://t.co/yMEemWAr"
"@robertflorence: How old does that make me feel? Talking about fingering lassies in 19 fucking 92. Like Jack the Ripper in Old London. Fucking hell."
"@robertflorence: Nothing worse than poking a lassie in 1992 and only now remembering to take your finger out."
The Friendly Monster
Member
Tortured logic. I'm talking about tangible incentives...not hand waving.
EternalGamer
Banned
Those tweets are clearly supposed to be funny and tongue in cheek. Not my particular brand of humor, but I get it.
Still, point taken. It isnt the kind of thing I want to read regularly. It is just too silly.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Nah I think rather than blaming Kickstarter he's blaming Molyneux for burdening the fans, the people who he owes his livelihood to, with the financial risk of the project. I think he's right, and it's something everyone doing a Kickstarter should think about.
Double Fine at least entertained the possibility that everything could go wrong, but it'd be glorious and you'd get to see it all. 22 cans page looks like a preorder promotion.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I don't quite understand the serious concern since it was industry vets who kickstarted Kickstarter into being as widely-used and successful as it is with non-existent games that asked plenty for rewards at higher tiers. It's a marketplace and this sort of speculation seems no different than the average GAF naysayer proclaiming that KS will be dead once the first high-profile projects collapse mid-development or fail to meet some nebulous high standards from 'over-entitled' and unrealistic backers.
How would you know they are "shitty comebacks" when none of the big Kickstarters have finished development yet?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I think the problem is that kickstarter is not an unlimited pool of money. If people backs Molyneux game, something he could easily do with his own resources, a lot of them might not back up other games that really needs the money.
I'm not defending any of these individual projects honestly. If I backed Double Fine and the whole project tanked, I certainly wouldn't call it "glorious."
I haven't funded a single one. Personally, I would rather buy a finished game. But I'm not out there elevating Double Fine to god status while telling Molyneux "fuck you" when they're both doing the same shit. I didn't feel like helping the FTL devs get $10,000 so I didn't. Most people have to scrap together that much on their own to buy a decent car, so why can't these guys scrap together that much for their business venture that they can later profit from?
The point is, they're all equally suspect. There is no pure Kickstarter project. They don't check to see who "needs" it and who doesn't. It's up to the audience, and that's it. That's what the site is. If individual backers want to impose their own restrictions in the decision making process, that is entirely, completely up to them. They can back whatever they want for any reason.
If this is really about "struggle," then any Kickstarter that has any stretch goals or exceeds their goal at all is abusing Kickstarter. They're taking away money from other needy devs and using it for stuff they have admitted from the outset that they don't need to complete their goal. That's just how I see it anyway.
Yeah, tangible incentives like not keeping any of the profit from a game regardless of how much it sells, since the publisher owns the IP.
Your posts in this thread are so consistently terrible I'm beginning to wonder if you're actually trolling.