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[QuantumSquid]

I know this thread is about the 480, but aren't the 470 and 460 also not out today?

Allegedly, but we've seen nothing of the 470 or 460 today, so I guess we'll just have to keep waiting.

 

[Beerman462]

What AMD did is genuinely reckless and dangerous though, can you imagine trying to run 2x 480s in CF and pulling over 100W x2 from PCI-e slots rated to provide 75W x2? We're talking blowing motherboards up here, this is way beyond just the usual criticism of reference cards.

I think a decent motherboard with lots of power phases and dark chokes and Japanese solid capacitors and that kind of thing could probably handle a single 480 no sweat. The problem is that most AMD video card buyers also have budget or bargain mobos and those are the ones at the most risk from not being able to take having their PCI-e slot run out of spec.

This is a little hyperbolic it might cause crashes. Blowing up MBs though ehh.

 

[Vinland]

Says you maybe...

Surely you aren't talking about fire sale or a used card to try and disqualify his statement?

This card is fantastic. It will force competition again in this space. once the AIBs come out I'll see about my HTPC getting an upgrade.

 

[NimbusD]

What AMD did is genuinely reckless and dangerous though, can you imagine trying to run 2x 480s in CF and pulling over 100W x2 from PCI-e slots rated to provide 75W x2? We're talking blowing motherboards up here, this is way beyond just the usual criticism of reference cards.

I think a decent motherboard with lots of power phases and dark chokes and Japanese solid capacitors and that kind of thing could probably handle a single 480 no sweat. The problem is that most AMD video card buyers also have budget or bargain mobos and those are the ones at the most risk from not being able to take having their PCI-e slot run out of spec.

AMD is claiming they're not pulling that much from PCI-e, it's possible their QC is just shitty for this card, which doesn't make the situation better if it's widespread, but it doesn't appear to be intentional?

 

[ethomaz]

Funny HBOA+ from what I've heard actually is less of a performance hit on AMD. I assumed it was just a different location, but even then the min frames on the HardOCP is 37 vs the 60+ at Techspot. I would bet it's somewhere in between, because most sites have the avg framerate at 50+.

That is why I said what is "Max Quality" because there are Low, Medium, High and Ultra in The Witcher 3... AnandTech shows the same avg. framerate than Hardocp with Ultra quality.

 

[Beerman462]

Surely you aren't talking about fire sale or a used card to try and disqualify his statement?

This card is fantastic. It will force competition again in this space. once the AIBs come out I'll see about my HTPC getting an upgrade.

Damn lol I thought the sarcasm was obvious. I was mocking people that expected the 480 to crush 390/970 performance.

 

[Beerman462]

That is why I said what is "Max Quality" because there are Low, Medium, High and Ultra in The Witcher 3... AnandTech shows the same avg. framerate than Hardocp with Ultra quality.

I agree Max quality is ambiguous.

 

[ethomaz]

About the PCI-E over 75W I found that...

With Tom's Hardware reporting that the RX 480 draws (substantailly) more than the 75W allowed from the motherboard (for example, the PCI Express high-power card spec allows a mazimum of 66W to be drawn from the 12V pins of the PCI Express slot, and the RX 480 averages79W from the 12V lines alone) AMD seems to be violating the PCI Express(R) spec.
According to the licensing contract for the spec, if they do not fix this within 3 months, AMD will NOT be able to call the card a PCI Express card. If they do, they face not only litigation, but if my understanding is correct an action before the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) to ban the importation of the card as counterfeit goods. You might think the PCI-SIG will give AMD a pass, but if they do, they risk loosing the trademark entirely. An unforced trademark gets invalidated. The SIG won't let that happen.
So what does this mean to the consumer? I think there are two possibilities, if we assume AMD will not choose to remove the PCI Express logos from these cards: Either they will alter the boards to have an 8-pin socket and to more power from there, or they will neuter the card to ensure it doesn't draw more power than the PCI Express specification allows. I don't see any other options.
Disclaimer: I am an attorney, but I practice patent law, not trademark law. This post does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship

https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-radeon-rx-480-video-card-review-h.1903637/page-3#post-1042386067

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/

Indeed it can damage low end motherboards that can't supply these over 75W in PCI-E due lower cost material.

 

[wildfire]

I know this thread is about the 480, but aren't the 470 and 460 also not out today?

Allegedly, but we've seen nothing of the 470 or 460 today, so I guess we'll just have to keep waiting.

No, the 470 comes out mid July and the 460 at the end of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmLEB8tqgFA

 

[wildfire]

About the PCI-E over 75W I found that...



https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-radeon-rx-480-video-card-review-h.1903637/page-3#post-1042386067

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/

Indeed it can damage low end motherboards that can't supply these over 75W in PCI-E due lower cost material.

Point 1. It isn't just Tom's Hardware making this claim. Atleast 6 random reviewers with the resources to test this sort of thing also make this claim.

Point 2. AMD asserts they actually submitted their cards to PCI-SIG in the first place and were found to be in compliance. Obviously they would do this in the first place but it's less obvious why PCI-SIG would certify these cards when it's doubtful all these reviewers are wrong about what they're recording.

 

[Neverfade]

Are these not sold out anywhere?

 

[newtypepilot]

wow ncix is listing the 8GB 480 anywhere from $329 CAD to $379

fuck the canadian dollar....

 

[QuantumSquid]

wow ncix is listing the 8GB 480 anywhere from $329 CAD to $379

fuck the canadian dollar....

329 CAD is 253 USD. The XFX 8GB RX 480 here in the states costs $250, that doesn't seem like the worst price gouging in the world.

(and it's nothing compared to the prices of the 1070 and 1080 in non-US countries)

 

[Kieli]

Yeah, cards seem.... ok.

8GB for somewhat better than GTX 970 performances for.... similar to GTX 970 prices 2 years ago. At least, similar to prices before the CAD cratered into oblivion (saw GTX 970 as low as $350 CAD in 2014).

 

[DonMigs85]

The Asus Z170-A shouldn't have any trouble with the increased power draw, right?
Actually I wonder if those GTX 950 cards designed for 75 watts with no power port never go overboard either.

 

[ISee]

About the PCI-E over 75W I found that...



https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-radeon-rx-480-video-card-review-h.1903637/page-3#post-1042386067

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/4qfwd4/rx480_fails_pcie_specification/

Indeed it can damage low end motherboards that can't supply these over 75W in PCI-E due lower cost material.

Most people aiming for the 4GB reference model are on a lower budgets anyway. They most probably need to go for low end mainboards. That's really a problem, especially for a friend of me who I was helping to put an i5/480 build together for just under 700€. We nearly ordered everything yesterday, but now we're on hold.

edit:
From the reddit thread:

Hardware.fr confirms this too. They also have a retail version (Sapphire 480) which exhibits the same problem. They also confirms the power usage going over 150W with both a review and retail version of the card.
They added also something interesting, they removed power and temperature limits and tested the card with no OC. The card pulled almost 200W in Witcher 3.

That's even worse...
I start to think this is thread worthy. As the 3.5gb gtx 970 fiasco was.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

This is a serious PSA:

Guys, if you're seriously going to buy a 480 right away, do NOT buy it from Newegg with their bullshit "Replacement Only" return policy. You really, really want to be able to return it.

 

[wildfire]

I was happy with the performance results but the power PCIE power draw result issue was a spoiler.

Now I came across this review that tested CPU scaling and this card is really a lot worse than most reviewers are portraying.

http://www.purepc.pl/karty_graficzn...x_480_polaris_test_karty_graficznej?page=0,16

That's the best result. It gets a lot worse. This card fails on 2 areas for budget minded consumers.

 

[Aztechnology]

Ughhh Nvidia why do you make it so hard for me to support you. This is the kind of shit that makes me want to buy your cards, and then I remember all of the BS you do to try and force closed ecosystems and I feel so damn torn.

 

[Beerman462]

This is a serious PSA:

Guys, if you're seriously going to buy a 480 right away, do NOT buy it from Newegg with their bullshit "Replacement Only" return policy. You really, really want to be able to return it.

Thanks for the hourly concern troll/NV shill post.
Come on man. I know you can be balanced. I've seen it.

 

[Aztechnology]

Thanks for the hourly concern troll/NV shill post.

But it is an issue. They are being hyperbolic, but what other cards in memory draw more power from the PCI-E and connectors than they are rated for? What are the real implications of this? If they had just made it a 6+2 connector and showed the real power draw instead of going for risky behavior to make their power usage look lower this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Beerman462]

But it is an issue. They are being hyperbolic, but what other cards in memory draw more power from the PCI-E and connectors than they are rated for? What are the real implementations of this. How will it affect overclocking etc.

I agree it can be an issue, but acting like 480 reference cards are the end of civilization isn't helping. Did AMD fuck up yes. Will effect a large amount of consumers? Doubtful. When it's obvious NV fanboys the message is subject.

 

[Aztechnology]

I agree it can be an issue, but acting like 480 reference cards are the end of civilization isn't helping. Did AMD fuck up yes. Will effect a large amount of consumers? Doubtful. When it's obvious NV fanboys the message is subject.

I won't disagree with this, I'm just a bit frustrated as I look to AMD to be more consumer minded than Nvidia, that includes transparency. Why would they even take this risk that could heavily backfire for mind-share? Surely they've known about this for a while.

 

[lordfuzzybutt]

I won't disagree with this, I'm just a bit frustrated as I look to AMD to be more consumer minded than Nvidia, that includes transparency. Why would they even take this risk that could heavily backfire for mind-share? Surely they've known about this for a while.

But they passed the PCI-SIG compliance test too, not only their internal testing. Something is not right here.

 

[my6765490]

I agree it can be an issue, but acting like 480 reference cards are the end of civilization isn't helping. Did AMD fuck up yes. Will effect a large amount of consumers? Doubtful. When it's obvious NV fanboys the message is subject.

If it means the MB circuitry starts failing, then yes, yes it will. Many of the prospective customers of the 480 will be people upgrading from older GPUs, a lot of them will have older/lower end motherboards that aren't designed to run over pci-e spec, I was interested in a 480, even with heat/power hangups, but I'm gonna be on the sidelines until they fix the pci-e issue, because i don't want my MB to die.

 

[RootCause]

But it is an issue. They are being hyperbolic, but what other cards in memory draw more power from the PCI-E and connectors than they are rated for? What are the real implications of this? If they had just made it a 6+2 connector and showed the real power draw instead of going for risky behavior to make their power usage look lower this wouldn't be an issue.

Some risky business, for sure.

Sorry, couldn't resist. lmao.

 

[soco]

Assuming you wanted to go 8gb route, why would you get the 480 over the 390? In many of the benchmarks they seem to perform similarly, and with decent coolers, the 8gb 390 starts around 270. Won't the ones with better coolers be about the same price as the 390s?

 

[Beerman462]

I won't disagree with this, I'm just a bit frustrated as I look to AMD to be more consumer minded than Nvidia, that includes transparency. Why would they even take this risk that could heavily backfire for mind-share? Surely they've known about this for a while.

Reference cards have issues. They aren't the end product for a majority of consumers. Is it right? No. It's reality though. AMD and Nvidia play this game. They know reference cards are bought by the desperate and the faithful. Any faults will be downplayed or written off.

This is only an issue for early adopters which is fucked up, but when posters with ulterior motivs post whoa is AMD I take issue, because they offer no insight. They pop into the thread with the sole purpose of disenfranchisement and nothing else.

 

[2002whitegt]

Man reading about the power draw is a gut punch. I recommended this card and bought one for a friend's pc.

Now I'm debating if I should even install it. Was really pulling for team red, I hope this gets an official statement and response. really want to hear AMD's side of things, cause so far this isn't a good look.

 

[Renekton]

I am still very bummed about the power consumption and heat

Will hold out hope for improvements on Vega!

GTX1080 only 13% over 980Ti OC to OC. So no reason to jump now.

 

[Aztechnology]

Reference cards have issues. They aren't the end product for a majority of consumers. Is it right? No. It's reality though. AMD and Nvidia play this game. They know reference cards are bought by the desperate and the faithful. Any faults will be downplayed or written off.

This is only an issue for early adopters which is fucked up, but when posters with ulterior motivs post whoa is AMD I take issue, because they offer no insight. They pop into the thread with the sole purpose of disenfranchisement and nothing else.

My reference 970 is the first reference card I've ever owned. (I got a huge discount from work) But it's an amazing card with no issues I can think of. I'm running it at 1455mhz (+)165mhz, with +300 memory OC at 62c during load, no issue at all and I could probably push it further. Shouldn't a reference card regardless of OC performance at least perform well at its stock settings without issue? It's supposed to be a model of base stability no? I'm not giving up hope yet, I just don't want to see AMD lose a bunch of new mindshare because they did something so foolish. I want to know what's going on.

This card runs really hot and is drawing more power than it's rated for on the base edition. That's really really shitty for their earliest buyers and potentially damaging in the wrong hands.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Assuming you wanted to go 8gb route, why would you get the 480 over the 390? In many of the benchmarks they seem to perform similarly, and with decent coolers, the 8gb 390 starts around 270. Won't the ones with better coolers be about the same price as the 390s?

Because they're still likely slightly cheaper while using dramatically less power?

 

[rrs]

My reference 970 is the first reference card I've ever owned. (I got a huge discount from work) But it's an amazing card with no issues I can think of. I'm running it at 1455mhz (+)165mhz, with +300 memory OC at 62c during load, no issue at all and I could probably push it further. Shouldn't a reference card regardless of OC performance at least perform well at its stock settings without issue? It's supposed to be a model of base stability no? I'm not giving up hope yet, I just don't want to see AMD lose a bunch of new mindshare because they did something so foolish. I want to know what's going on.

Must of won the silicon lottery, I only get +155 (+185 over stock mhz) core before things start to get weird, although I got better cooling and more TDP to play with than stock. Also, some of the memory chips on 970s (Samsung) are rated for 8 GHz instead of 7 so it's free OC if you got them

Ah maybe so. You have a reference as well? I didn't have to increase voltage at all for my OC.

Just edited my post: my card is aftermarket cooled, 2x6 pin, no overvolt options

 

[Aztechnology]

Must of won the silicon lottery, I only get +155 core before things start to get weird, although I got better cooling and more TDP to play with than stock. Also, some of the memory chips on 970s (Samsung) are rated for 8 GHz instead of 7 so it's free OC if you got them

Ah maybe so. You have a reference as well? I didn't have to increase voltage at all for my OC.

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to get all negative. This card is still very exciting to me. I'm just stressing a bit because it doesn't take much for people to completely write AMD off (CF means if you use two cards it will burn your house down etc.) Some of it they've deserved, much they haven't. The market is very fickle about these things and there's already an established brand preference in the market so AMD is on thin ice.

I'm at this (above) stage because I want this to be the lead mass market card and really challenge Nvidia for marketshare this gen. We need good competition in the graphics processing space. I'm worried this may jeopardize that because they were misleading people during announcements and people may have gotten too hyped.

 

[DonMigs85]

But they passed the PCI-SIG compliance test too, not only their internal testing. Something is not right here.

I'm picturing Jen-Hsun Huang cackling with glee for some reason

 

[DonMigs85]

Must of won the silicon lottery, I only get +155 (+185 over stock mhz) core before things start to get weird, although I got better cooling and more TDP to play with than stock. Also, some of the memory chips on 970s (Samsung) are rated for 8 GHz instead of 7 so it's free OC if you got them
Just edited my post: my card is aftermarket cooled, 2x6 pin, no overvolt options

Must have. MUST HAVE!!!

 

[rrs]

Must have. MUST HAVE!!!

to be honest, I dunno. Would had gotten a 480 if my 6870 didn't die beforehand but that's life I suppose

 

[AlanOC91]

to be honest, I dunno. Would had gotten a 480 if my 6870 didn't die beforehand but that's life I suppose

He was correcting your grammer

 

[lordfuzzybutt]

He was correcting your grammer

Grammar. GRAMMAR!!!

Spoiler

Sorry.

I'm picturing Jen-Hsun Huang cackling with glee for some reason

Well, this power draw issue is a good enough reason for him to be cackling I reckon. At least for now. Hopefully we get more comprehensive explanation soon.

 

[Renekton]

Must have. MUST HAVE!!!

Your wasting time, he could care less as he payed for the card.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Starting to get buyers remorse over this card and I don't even have it yet. Should come today some time.

I was hype yesterday after seeing £176 4GB model as I only had £200 to spend on a GPU. Now all the heat, power draw, throttling, cpu overhead criticisms.

I am running Core i5 4440 @ 3.1GHz and 1GB Nvidia 750 non-Ti model.

I take it my CPU is going to be a bottleneck now?

 

[ISee]

My reference 970 is the first reference card I've ever owned. (I got a huge discount from work) But it's an amazing card with no issues I can think of. I'm running it at 1455mhz (+)165mhz, with +300 memory OC at 62c during load, no issue at all and I could probably push it further. Shouldn't a reference card regardless of OC performance at least perform well at its stock settings without issue? It's supposed to be a model of base stability no? I'm not giving up hope yet, I just don't want to see AMD lose a bunch of new mindshare because they did something so foolish. I want to know what's going on.

This card runs really hot and is drawing more power than it's rated for on the base edition. That's really really shitty for their earliest buyers and potentially damaging in the wrong hands.

A reference 970 with just 62°C during load at 1455 MHz? You should send it in to NVIDIA for research purpose because if this is true that's the gold sample of gold samples. It's the best 970 out there.

 

[Aztechnology]

A reference 970 with just 62°C during load at 1455 MHz? You should send it in to NVIDIA for research purpose because if this is true that's the gold sample of gold samples. It's the best 970 out there.

Guess I won the silicone lottery?

 

[Widge]

£150 is my magic amount for buying a card, I'd push past it for a pretty special card.

I'm going to keep monitoring this but also see the match up between the 8GB vs. a 1060 6GB. Once everything is in the wild, decision can be made. No point jumping in before the nearest competitor is on the market.

As a curiosity, why are reference cards so shit? Why on earth don't Nvidia and AMD slap a decent cooling system on from the off?

 

[Nachtmaer]

What a decent cooler unsurprisingly can do and all:

http://oc.jagatreview.com/2016/06/teaser-overclocking-amd-radeon-rx480-ke-1-4ghz-dengan-cooler-3rd-party/

 

[ISee]

Guess I won the silicone lottery?

How long was it running?

 

[MadD4mon]

Starting to get buyers remorse over this card and I don't even have it yet. Should come today some time.

Same here - I ordered the XFX OC edition with 1328 Mhz. Now I'm not so sure if I should keep it.

 

[Aztechnology]

What a decent cooler unsurprisingly can do and all:

http://oc.jagatreview.com/2016/06/teaser-overclocking-amd-radeon-rx480-ke-1-4ghz-dengan-cooler-3rd-party/

That's awesome, looking really good for custom AIB's. But that power draw is on a 6pin? Isn't that dangerous as others have stated?

How long was it running?

I was playing the Witcher 3 for about two hours. Maybe it's not reporting correctly? The hottest I've ever seen it is like 68c when I first got it.

 

[Decado]

wow ncix is listing the 8GB 480 anywhere from $329 CAD to $379

fuck the canadian dollar....

Prices of the the gtx 980 ti and 970 seem to be dropping, albeit via steep sale discounts.

But yeah...Not happy with the Canadian pricing.

 

[ISee]

I was playing the Witcher 3 for about two hours. Maybe it's not reporting correctly? The hottest I've ever seen it is like 68c when I first got it.

No idea. Can't check myself but to give you an example. Gigabytes 970gtx g1 cards come with exceptionaly good air cooling solutions. They also use 'selected' chips for the g1 series to guarantee high overclock abilities. And granted you can reach up to 1550 mhz on them (most of the time) but even there it's not possible to hold 61°C under heavy load at 1455 MHz.