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Reading the bible (more fun than it sounds)
- Thread starter Zenith
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Leviticus
Interesting how the culture unified medicine with clergy. People with contagious diseases had to be examined by priests and kept isolated, not because they were sick but because it made them "ceremonially unclean". Same went with mouldy clothes and houses. Priests would decontaminate them in order to "purify" them. Eating carrion is also ceremonially unclean (and rotten).
One bit that really stands out is the deaths of Moses' nephews. The first half of Leviticus is all about the procedure of sacrifices and temple rituals. The temple described last book with all the gold and such has been completed. God now has a permanent physical manifestation inside there. Moses's brother Aaron and Aaron's sons have just been ordained as high priests and donned elaborately decorated costumes. The entire community (600,000 was the last number mentioned) is gathered for what is the most elaborate holy ritual in the history of Christianity so far. It is the religious equivalent of a Nuremberg rally, or the Beatles playing to a packed stadium. It is BIG.
So verse after verse describing all the pernickety rituals they're performing "on stage" when suddenly:
2 of his new priests and direct blood relations of his Prophet, dead, in front of everyone in what was supposed to be a celebration of the Lord. And Moses and Aaron have to keep going with the ritual.
After their bodies are removed Moses says as an aside:
You get the feeling that everyone in that big camp around the mountain is being held hostage. It's like that Doctor Who episode "Belly of the Beast" where everyone knows of the disappearances but no one dares speak of it and pretend everything's normal. Reinforced further when God orders the entire community to stone a man to death for taking his name in vain.
Funny to see the origin of the word "scapegoat". One of Aaron's annual duties is to place his hands on the head of a live goat in the temple and confess all the sins of the people of Israel. The sins are then transferred to the goat (now named a scapegoat) and it is driven out into the wilderness.
So that's where they get it from.
He's very much a God of these people only. Every other race, despite him being the creator of it all, can go hang. He actively wants them to fail and will happily wipe them out if it means a boost to the Israelites.
God's huge rant on all the punishments he will inflict on the Israelites if they disobey him I imagined in Les Grossman's voice ("I wil BURY YOU. I will FUCK YOU UP").
Again does the whole brief summary of laws/actions/events followed by indepth description & direct transcription of what was actually said. I wish they'd invented subtitles.
Bed now.
Interesting how the culture unified medicine with clergy. People with contagious diseases had to be examined by priests and kept isolated, not because they were sick but because it made them "ceremonially unclean". Same went with mouldy clothes and houses. Priests would decontaminate them in order to "purify" them. Eating carrion is also ceremonially unclean (and rotten).
One bit that really stands out is the deaths of Moses' nephews. The first half of Leviticus is all about the procedure of sacrifices and temple rituals. The temple described last book with all the gold and such has been completed. God now has a permanent physical manifestation inside there. Moses's brother Aaron and Aaron's sons have just been ordained as high priests and donned elaborately decorated costumes. The entire community (600,000 was the last number mentioned) is gathered for what is the most elaborate holy ritual in the history of Christianity so far. It is the religious equivalent of a Nuremberg rally, or the Beatles playing to a packed stadium. It is BIG.
So verse after verse describing all the pernickety rituals they're performing "on stage" when suddenly:
2 of his new priests and direct blood relations of his Prophet, dead, in front of everyone in what was supposed to be a celebration of the Lord. And Moses and Aaron have to keep going with the ritual.
After their bodies are removed Moses says as an aside:
You get the feeling that everyone in that big camp around the mountain is being held hostage. It's like that Doctor Who episode "Belly of the Beast" where everyone knows of the disappearances but no one dares speak of it and pretend everything's normal. Reinforced further when God orders the entire community to stone a man to death for taking his name in vain.
Funny to see the origin of the word "scapegoat". One of Aaron's annual duties is to place his hands on the head of a live goat in the temple and confess all the sins of the people of Israel. The sins are then transferred to the goat (now named a scapegoat) and it is driven out into the wilderness.
So that's where they get it from.
He's very much a God of these people only. Every other race, despite him being the creator of it all, can go hang. He actively wants them to fail and will happily wipe them out if it means a boost to the Israelites.
God's huge rant on all the punishments he will inflict on the Israelites if they disobey him I imagined in Les Grossman's voice ("I wil BURY YOU. I will FUCK YOU UP").
Again does the whole brief summary of laws/actions/events followed by indepth description & direct transcription of what was actually said. I wish they'd invented subtitles.
Bed now.
GillianSeed79
Member
Not to go OT, but it's weird that I grew up completely indoctrinated in Catholicism, went to Catholic school all through grade school and high school and was even an altar boy, yet I've never actually sat down and read the bible in its entirety.
Sure we covered all the new testament in school, a lot of the old testament, jewish biblical history and I've seen all the Jesus movies and old testament movies. Somehow, I've never been able to go through and read the bible, though.
I always fall asleep in the beginning of the books when they list the entire family tree before starting, i.e. Jacob was then son of so and so, who begot x, who begot y, who begot z, who begot a, who begot b, who begot c..etc, etc., etc.
Also, not to offend or make fun of Christians, but holy shit does the new testament cherry pick the old testament regarding prophecy and Christ. Most of the stuff they highlight is about as vague as Nostradmus quatrains, but (some) Christians believes God was leaving all these hints and clues through prophets about Christ throughout the old testament. I get that early Christians did this to give the religion legitimacy, but I never understood why God didn't just say 'hey, in a few hundred years I'm going to send my son down..etc, etc., etc."
Sure we covered all the new testament in school, a lot of the old testament, jewish biblical history and I've seen all the Jesus movies and old testament movies. Somehow, I've never been able to go through and read the bible, though.
I always fall asleep in the beginning of the books when they list the entire family tree before starting, i.e. Jacob was then son of so and so, who begot x, who begot y, who begot z, who begot a, who begot b, who begot c..etc, etc., etc.
Also, not to offend or make fun of Christians, but holy shit does the new testament cherry pick the old testament regarding prophecy and Christ. Most of the stuff they highlight is about as vague as Nostradmus quatrains, but (some) Christians believes God was leaving all these hints and clues through prophets about Christ throughout the old testament. I get that early Christians did this to give the religion legitimacy, but I never understood why God didn't just say 'hey, in a few hundred years I'm going to send my son down..etc, etc., etc."
A large part of Jesus's tenure on earth, which culminated with his death on the cross, was sacrifice and death to our own desires and to put first God's desires and to look out for others.
"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31)."
46An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you allhe is the greatest."
Luke 9:46
Sacrifice, humility and to serve others before ourselves.
"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." (NIV, Mark 12:28-31)."
46An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you allhe is the greatest."
Luke 9:46
Sacrifice, humility and to serve others before ourselves.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Judaism had a whole undercurrent of messianic zeal at the start of the first century. Religious terrorist groups like the Zealots believed it pretty hard, but thought the Messiah would be a Jewish King who would come and liberate Israel from occupation by the Greeks, then the Romans.GillianSeed79 said:
Even in the NT, Jesus' disciples believed he was there to start a political revolution (they didn't go on and on about him being of royal lineage for nothing) and at one point, asked him who would sit at his right and left hand sides when he became king. They all thought they'd be governors and generals and stuff.
So yeah, after the crucifixion and after they saw whatever they saw in the period after that, the disciples repurposed the narrative to mean that Jesus was there to establish a spiritual kingdom rather than an earthly one.
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Reminded me of the curious verse when Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within. What is also within is the spirit. So I suppose Jesus meant that when our spirits our in the correct status, a renewed kingdom will be manifested. When we have it in our spirits to love God first and foremost and to essentially become each others' keeper.
Zenith said:
This is actually very common isn't it? in most tribes I've heard of there's the figure of the shaman who fills the role of doctor and priest.
Game Analyst said:
is this really true? from what you are saying I'm implying that without Jesus' sacrifice no matter what you do you would be damned. Also I'm pretty sure I was taught (I was raised catholic by the way) that Adam and Eve's sin extended to all humanity, so you have the sin since you are born, without having done anything at all, no freewill involved, and that's what baptism is for. My only reference right now in my head is the Divine Comedy in which every single unbaptized soul was in hell, no matter how good or bad, no matter if they were even children, at least they were in kind of a nice place, the limbo was a neat little garden.
Ether_Snake
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Zenith said:
It's actually the typical attitude of the gods of Babylonian/Summerian/Greek/Polytheists religions. Always fucking with mankind.
I actually believe that a lot of the old texts that are considered religious today were the equivalent of fables even back then. It's only later that some of them later turned up into actual religious texts. I mean I'm sure they had poets and story tellers back then who made stuff up and didn't hide the fact that it was just a story.
paranoidfortean
Member
This or LOTR?
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
ILikeFeet said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
And there is NO story of a war between the angels and God in the Bible. The he apocryphal Book of Enoch is the source of this story.
The Bible itself makes a reference to this book in a way, with the story of the Nephilims who supposedly came down to Earth and thought mankind all sorts of things like war, make up, etc., which are also described in the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch is obviously the source of this story, but it is probably Sumerian or Babylonian in nature.
My favorite Bible texts are the Gnostic ones:
1- The God of the OT is a god who was accidentally created, and who then created the material world, but being limited to the physical realm himself he is unable to see the true God beyond the physical world, so he believes that he is the only god.
2- This OT God was pissed off and sent angels to rape Noah's wife because she was too wise, but she prayed to the true God and he sent his own beings to kill the OT god's angels.
3- Soddom and Gomorrah were probably enlightened cities. Same with Babylon.
4- Adam was thought by Eve, and they became "higher than God", so he kicked them out.
And so on.
Edit: here is the Noah part:
This is totally Xenogears The Sequel.
http://www.gnosis.org/genesis.html
elrechazado
Banned
I've always wondered, are you an ex mormon? You always bring them up in religion threads.Hitokage said:
Dude Abides
Banned
paranoidfortean said:
You can get both OT weirdness and sci/fi fantasy weirdness in this Madeleine L'engle book called many waters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many_Waters
ConfusingJazz said:
True true. I spoke pretty ambiguously, I meant region of the world as in Europe, Middle East, Sub Saharan Africa, etc. I would include Turkey in the Middle East (as well as North Africa). Europe, with the exception of the two countries you mentioned, overwhelmingly is dominated by the farming societies that survived.
astroturfing
Member
reading the Bible hmm... i've tried many times but the first 20 or so pages are just unbearably weird/nonsensical to me and i can never get past them :/
btw, is the first half of the Bible aka the Old Testament copied straight from Judaism? i mean i know it is, but is it 100% the same, or are there some differences..?
btw, is the first half of the Bible aka the Old Testament copied straight from Judaism? i mean i know it is, but is it 100% the same, or are there some differences..?
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
It's the same. The Old Testament and the Tanakh have the same content and the earliest NT manuscripts quote an older Greek translation of the Tanakh word-for-word (the Septuagint, I think). Differences come from the two main ancient translations of the Tanakh (the Aramaic/Hebrew Masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint text) and the order the books come in, but the content's the same.astroturfing said:
However, the OT isn't fully agreed upon on among Christian denominations. Most protestant denominations only recognise 39 books. The Catholic Church recognises a few that didn't appear in the Tanakh called the deutercanonicals and the Orthodox Church recognises a few more.
Barbacoatl
Banned
God's prohibition was the first "No" in history. "No" made space for freedom. Now Man could say "No" too. No to prohibition. He (the man) trespasses it violently (liberating himself in the process?). The consequence is that Man can also say No to himself. Ashamed, he can now observe himself from the outside. He realizes he's being watched and judged accordingly. Blind no more, Man is doomed to the suffering of knowledge. The knowledge of death. It seems God wants us to know only a certain amount of things, for our own good. He purposedly created us with a limited set of capabilities and knowledge, and wanting to exceed them will harm us eventually. More than sin, I see the original choice as the symbolical rupture between Man's complete, rose-tinted dependence of God and his own conscious choices, whatever the fate. I can't speak about Jesus' role in all of this. He feels tacked on to the plot, if you ask me.Game Analyst said:
As simple and existentialist as it sounds, if God didn't plant that particular tree in that particular scenario (and that is without taking into account the serpent, which still wasn't a proper demon) and didn't forbid certain specific actions none of us would be having this conversation (that is, if you believe this particular myth of creation).
Man, the Old Testament has some crazy shit in it. It also seems irreconcilable when comparing OT and NT God, and is a big reason I stopped believing. Still a lot of fun to think about and talk about though
But yeah, the God depicted in the entirety of the Bible does in no way match up with any definition of being "morally perfect" except within its own context. Loving all human beings "unconditionally", yet slaughtering millions of them and condemning most to hell because they can't be perfect, which the Bible says is impossible. Sounds like a condition to me, bitch
Also if you really look at the text, Calvinism (predestination) is pretty clearly taught. Which brings the bullshit level to critical mass
Don't get me wrong... most of the people in my life are Christians (hooray for living in a small conservative town) and I have a great deal of respect for some of them, but I just can't get over how insane and contradictory some of the things in the book are
But yeah, the God depicted in the entirety of the Bible does in no way match up with any definition of being "morally perfect" except within its own context. Loving all human beings "unconditionally", yet slaughtering millions of them and condemning most to hell because they can't be perfect, which the Bible says is impossible. Sounds like a condition to me, bitch
Also if you really look at the text, Calvinism (predestination) is pretty clearly taught. Which brings the bullshit level to critical mass
Don't get me wrong... most of the people in my life are Christians (hooray for living in a small conservative town) and I have a great deal of respect for some of them, but I just can't get over how insane and contradictory some of the things in the book are
What really baffles me is how big of a deal it was for Luther to make the Bible available to anyone to read. It's pretty obvious why the pope and the catholic church at the time would want absolute control over what the Bible said and who knew the exact words, but once it was available to the public one would think people will very quickly start seeing it's huge inconsistencies, because it's not just a pair of contradictions, it's a completely insane book, yet people followed it, almost literally, for centuries.
ILikeFeet said:
If you understand the history of when, where, and why Genesis came to be the first book of the Bible, it becomes clear that the serpent is most likely meant to represent Tiamat.
It was common for a new religion to demonize the one that came before it, and given the origins of Judaism, and specifically the book of Genesis -- which is basically a co-opting of a Sumerian/Babylonian myth for their own use -- Tiamat is the most likely explanation for the identity of the serpent.
The stuff in Revelations came about thousands of years later as an explanation from someone completely disconnected from the source material.
Chaplain
Member
Brashnir said:
Jesus took the Apostle John and showed John the future.
I, John, am your brother and your partner in suffering and in Gods Kingdom and in the patient endurance to which Jesus calls us. I was exiled to the island of Patmos for preaching the word of God and for my testimony about Jesus. It was the Lords Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. Suddenly, I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet blast. It said, Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, Dont be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but lookI am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.
Write down what you have seenboth the things that are now happening and the things that will happen.
So how can you say Jesus showing John the future is disconnected from the Source material?
And the house of cards tumbled soon after. The reineissance, humanism, the reformation and enlightenment seem a logical progression of events when looked at from this perspective.mantidor said:
A lot of Christians still use the fact that Christianity has been a dominant force for over 1500 years as proof of it's veracity, when in fact for a good 1000 years of that time, the common people only had the clergies word and religious art adorning their churches as to what the religion was actually all about. The fear of punishment, social exclusion or death for not following the religion is real motivator here.
Pile on top of this, things such as ignorance of the Greek/Roman/Egyptian/Babylonian source materials for much of the material in the Bible, and the obscene financial dominance and political corruption of the church, and I think this is the real explanation as to why it's been such a social force for the length of time it has - nothing to do with "well if it's been around so long it must be true".
electroshockwave
Member
Game Analyst said:
John who wrote Revelations wasn't the same person as the apostle John. But don't let that stop you, this has been a fascinating display of mental gymnastics.
Numbers
Pretty much a rerun of Leviticus. Covers the same time period but adds new events.
After some people complained about having to walk through the desert all their lives God sent fire through the camps to burn people.
After some people complained about having no meat to eat:
Truly diabolical. "I'm going to give you meat "ironically"." He also sent a plague afterwards for good measure.
After a scouting party sent to find lands to conquer gives a false report to avoid a battle they think they'll lose God again threatens total genocide against the Israelies. And again Moses has to talk him out of it, actually reminding him of his "I'm slow to anger" line.
So God decides instant death for the scouts and condemns the entire tribe to wander the desert for 40 years until all of the original 600,000 who left Egypt and were present during the complaining are dead.
mwa-ha-ha
Someone tries to lead a rebellion against Moses and once again the community gathers at the Tabernacle. God's instant reaction:
Again, Moses talks hims out of genocide and God settles for an earthquake that kills the rebel leaders, their wives and their children, and then sends fire to kill some 250 more.
And he's not done yet. The incense burners the rebels were carrying are hammered into an altar cover to stand as "a permanent warning" to the people of Israel.
Believe it or not, this doesn't cow the populace. They start getting angry over all the killings and again everyone gathers in front of the Tabernacle. God has the exact same reaction of wanting to kill them all in an instant. Aaron uses himself as a sort of human shield to purify everyone but not before 15,000 people have died. It ends with the Israelis crying into the dust, utterly defeated. I actually looked up the King James version I was so stunned by this and it's the same.
Later on people end up complaining about having to eat manna all the time so God sends poisonous snakes instead. I'm sort of noticing a pattern here.
A cure to some survivors is offered in the form of a bronze snake wrapped round a pole that will instantly cure the poision. This sounds similar to the greek Rod of Asclepius symbol ambulances use. Both are for healing.
Later on, after the Israelies annihilate a good deal of the natives and burn their cities to the ground under God's banner, some of them get busy with the local women and join them in worshipping Baal. God sends another plague that kills 24,000 people until a priest impales an Israelite and one of the women on a spear.
Considering just how many of them God has killed, I think they were better off back in Egypt.
Pretty much a rerun of Leviticus. Covers the same time period but adds new events.
After some people complained about having to walk through the desert all their lives God sent fire through the camps to burn people.
After some people complained about having no meat to eat:
Truly diabolical. "I'm going to give you meat "ironically"." He also sent a plague afterwards for good measure.
After a scouting party sent to find lands to conquer gives a false report to avoid a battle they think they'll lose God again threatens total genocide against the Israelies. And again Moses has to talk him out of it, actually reminding him of his "I'm slow to anger" line.
So God decides instant death for the scouts and condemns the entire tribe to wander the desert for 40 years until all of the original 600,000 who left Egypt and were present during the complaining are dead.
mwa-ha-ha
Someone tries to lead a rebellion against Moses and once again the community gathers at the Tabernacle. God's instant reaction:
Again, Moses talks hims out of genocide and God settles for an earthquake that kills the rebel leaders, their wives and their children, and then sends fire to kill some 250 more.
And he's not done yet. The incense burners the rebels were carrying are hammered into an altar cover to stand as "a permanent warning" to the people of Israel.
Believe it or not, this doesn't cow the populace. They start getting angry over all the killings and again everyone gathers in front of the Tabernacle. God has the exact same reaction of wanting to kill them all in an instant. Aaron uses himself as a sort of human shield to purify everyone but not before 15,000 people have died. It ends with the Israelis crying into the dust, utterly defeated. I actually looked up the King James version I was so stunned by this and it's the same.
Later on people end up complaining about having to eat manna all the time so God sends poisonous snakes instead. I'm sort of noticing a pattern here.
A cure to some survivors is offered in the form of a bronze snake wrapped round a pole that will instantly cure the poision. This sounds similar to the greek Rod of Asclepius symbol ambulances use. Both are for healing.
Later on, after the Israelies annihilate a good deal of the natives and burn their cities to the ground under God's banner, some of them get busy with the local women and join them in worshipping Baal. God sends another plague that kills 24,000 people until a priest impales an Israelite and one of the women on a spear.
Considering just how many of them God has killed, I think they were better off back in Egypt.
Blergmeister
Member
Zenith said:
Now I'm expecting to read in the news that you, your entire family, and every town you ever visited to be smote by earthquakes and plague.
Semi-related, I guess, but I recommend Ladies and Gentlemen, The Bible! by Jonathan Goldstein instead of the Bible itself. It's a short read.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
That's not what omnipotent means. I think you're conflating a few different of God's attributes:jaxword said:
Dictionary.com said:
Merriam Webster said:
Having experienced everything implies a knowledge of everything (omniscience), and also implies being present at everything (omnipresence). It actually doesn't implicate God's omnipotence at all.Merriam Webster said:
Knowledge is not the same as experience. God could know everything that would happen under every conceivable circumstance, but never experience any of it.jaxword said:
If it has already been done, 100000000~ times, why couldn't this be another of those times? In other words, even conceding that your understanding of God's attributes is correct, it doesn't follow that there is no reason for us to exist. In your understanding, this could be merely one of those 100000000~ tests, which is actually a pretty good reason for us to exist.jaxword said:
Metaphoreus said:
When I use the term omnipotent, I actually meant in the all-encompassing term for God, including omniscience. You can substitute the term omniscient in my statement if you truly want, but that's really a semantic debate and it can be put aside. Same with "knowledge" and "experience." Either God knows ALL, and has experience of ALL, or he does not. You can't say there's things he has no experience of something because that is a gap of knowledge. He would have ALL experience and ALL possible info.
I used 1000000~ as a random *Big Number* to get the point across. There wouldn't be 1000000~ times. There wouldn't be 1 time. God would ALREADY know every possible outcome. There would be zero motivation for God to do anything, ever, because motivation requires desire and a need. God, who is all knowing, all powerful, and always present, would have no gaps in his experience or knowledge.
If you want to have God who DOES have needs, desires, and things he does not have, that's fine. But that means he is not omnipotent (omniscient, omnipresent, etc). You must choose how you want to believe in God, it is a contradiction to have both.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
But who claims that God has experience of things that never happened? That isn't a part of omniscience or omnipresence. Again, knowledge and experience are not the same concept, and so the difference here is more than merely semantic.jaxword said:
On what basis can you make that claim? If you make that claim based on experience, how can you extrapolate from human experience to divine experience? Moreover, to say that God desires is a completely different kind of statement than to say that God needs, so assessing one does not necessarily assess the other. In other words, God can desire something without needing it.jaxword said:
I still think your conflation of knowledge with experience is hindering you. God can know that if He makes Idaho and potatoes, then He can experience potatoes in Idaho--and He can know that without creating either Idaho or potatoes. However, to have (or experience) a potato from Idaho, God must create both Idaho and potatoes. But how does this limit His omnipotence? Can He not create Idaho or potatoes? Or His omniscience? He knew even without creating them that He could create them and thereafter experience them. Or His omnipresence? Once He has created a place, He is there. Only by equating experience with knowledge does this become a problem.jaxword said:
(Now there's a fine theory for why God made the universe: He just wanted some potatoes from Idaho!)
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