But as the handhelds advanced, the difference between the two in terms of the experiences they offer have decreased more & more. We're now to the point where we have full console games on handhelds (see Xenoblade & DKCR). We also have major engines such as UE4 that can be supported by mobile devices. And it wouldn't be as stupid of a business decision as you'd think, as you'd only have to worry about selling one SKU for games & can focus on either providing DLC for that game or adding more variety to the line-up.
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Reddit [verified] User shares NX info: x86 Architecture, Second screen support etc.
- Thread starter DaSorcerer7
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As nice as that sounds on paper, I don't think anyone wants to work with Intel- or worse, nvidia.
AcademicSaucer
Member
both could be right , the reddit guy and the WSJ, reddit guy works with western third parties that dont have dev kits, WSJ was talking about japanese third parties.
Mysterious
Banned
iPhone is advanced. It has a different user experience than a personal computer.
Yes we have Xenoblade on 3DS. How well do those games sell. Now compare it to games with a primary handheld UX, like Pokémon. You can use UE4 to build handheld games, yes. Making an Uncharted for PS Vita didn't help Sony, now did it? UE4 can be used on handhelds to build handheld games.
Second it. If the info is bunk, permajunior or ban him.
As stated before, it wouldn't really make as much of a difference as you'd think if they went with ARM.
It's more about joining basic industry standards. ARM would fill that role too but it's the spirit of the thing.
This doesn't really mean anything. Plenty of home console games are pick up and play, and plenty of handheld games are big sit down and spend a lot of time type games.
thenewjeva
Member
That doesn't necessarily mean that the platforms will have a shared architecture. It means that they'll probably create toolkits that could easily transfer assets between the two platforms at a high level. That way their devs could easily switch between the two platforms without having to create new assets for each.
The problem with using x86 for a handheld is that it's too power consuming to be usable for the purposes of gaming. It will require a large battery in order to power the system for longer than 30 minutes. Even if they were to go with a low power-consuming x86 architecture, current processors are not optimized for gaming and probably wouldn't port well from the main NX console. Therefore, I see Nintendo's next handheld sticking to ARM for the near future.
Pokemaniac
Member
The thing about the console/handheld division is that, at least in terms of which platforms games release on, it's been kinda slowly dissolving for a while. The two types of game still exist, but both can release on a single platform. You can clearly see this with all of the console game which have received 3DS ports, for example.
Also, Iwata was specifically using iOS and Android as examples of how Nintendo wants their software ecosystem to be like. There isn't too much room for interpretation that.
Not really. Honestly, in Nintendo's position, there are more downsides than benefits.
The mod on reddit is the one seeking account approval, not the person who put out the 'leaks'.
They're trying to collaborate with mods here to help with verifying these leakers.
But we're not talking about a phone with no physical buttons, we're talking about a handheld with a similar layout to a console controller. The n3DS's control layout is near identical to that of the Wii U (sans buttons in the Circle Pad & C-Stick Nub), which resulted in a port of Xenoblade to run considerably close to how it would on the Wii.
I'm not saying that the division between the two in terms of experiences doesn't exist at all now, I'm saying that it's become much less of a factor than it was when we first started getting dedicated handhelds.
Mysterious
Banned
Please source this with technical information to back this claim up, instead of repeatedly pulling it out of nowhere in literally every NX thread I go into.
Candescence
Member
Iwata actually used iOS as an example of the kind of "shared architecture" he was talking about - two kinds of devices, one app works on both with little to no problems. That's why I'm taking any rumor that claims that the NX uses x86 with a grain of salt, because splitting the architecture instead of making both devices ARM would make this goal harder for absolutely no benefit.
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
I do wonder why people keep talking about a handheld when 3DS is doing damn well. And there's plenty coming out for it.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
This is how 3rd party characters get in smash
I know. But if the stuff used for verification wasn't strong enough, have some sort of penalty for requesting to be fast-tracked.
denial lol
ArchedThunder
Banned
If by doing well you mean its sales have been dropping.
Mysterious
Banned
Yes on iOS, developers make iPhone and iPad software. Sometimes you can buy one, and you get the other as an additional free bonus. But they're two different pieces of software.
These are two very different user experiences, and two very different software.
The fact that you can buy either the iPhone or iPad version and get the other one for free is a bonus that some developers opt-in for. Some sell them separately.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Why do folks want this ARM based? Please explain it to me.
Depends on how complicated you want the code to be. I did try porting some simpler programs already to something that could be played on an iPhone & only had to edit a few things here-&-there. I'd need to go back to the Comp-Sci lab to get specifics (my laptop isn't exactly a beast), but I didn't have to bust my balls to get it working on ARM from x86 (which is how I most commonly code my programs). Like I said before, this could change as my programs grow more & more complex.
Yeah, I think people took this quote and others and assumed it meant cross play. It could just be a way to save development costs.
I'm really skeptical of crossplay after them making you rebuy SNES games on 3DS.
Unification between the console & handheld, thus making cross-system development for Nintendo easier (especially if Iwata's goal of making future consoles & handhelds interact like iOS devices is to be taken at face value).
AcademicSaucer
Member
Reddit and GAF mods working together? the thirst is real.
Mysterious
Banned
I want a technical documentation to back up your claim. You don't need to tell me your personal anecdotes.
And if you're talking about really simple projects not really tied to a CPU architecture, then of course it's easy to port. I can port CHIP-8 from C++ to Java easily. That doesn't mean you can extend it to a whole console sophisticated architecture like you are.
Pokemaniac
Member
The reason it doesn't matter is compilers. Games aren't made primarily in assembly anymore (rare exceptions like IronFall notwithstanding). With modern tooling, the vast majority of differences between architectures are handled by compilers now. There are some specific exceptions to this, but by and large, those can be handled by some relatively simple, targeted changes.
Spieler Eins
Member
what_year_is_it.jpg
The majority of the 3DS library has shifted to console-like experiences from the very beginning, including tons of straight up console ports being presented as major titles.
lol
eh, I wouldn't be too harsh with the reddit mod, if anything, if we got both reddit and gaf mods on the NX case, we won't have too many of these unfounded leaks getting threads in the future.
I don't really see how that helps solve their software drought problems though.
oreomunsta
Banned
Because for a company like Nintendo, with many IP's to juggle and limited resources, it makes sense to move onto a system where they can just worry about "The 3D Mario game" instead of dividing up a team between "The handheld Mario game" and "The Console Mario game".
Because AMD x86 aren't very good, while ARM development is booming with exciting new hardware at every corner. Also, platform wars aren't nearly as fun when the hardware are nearly identical, like XBOne vs PS4
. And I believe that ARM is more adequate for lower power consumption CPU's than whatever AMD has provided in nearly a decade.
Pokemaniac
Member
If the developer of that app knows what they're doing, it's actually a single app with a dynamic UI.
"Want" is a strong word. Using ARM would align more with the stated goals of the platform, and would save Nintendo a lot of effort.
Which I can provide the next time I do an ARM project. There's an extra credit assignment coming up in which I have the option to do a UE4 game, so that may be a good opportunity to truly test the porting more (assuming that the assignment doesn't get scooped up).
Mysterious
Banned
Okay, so your claim is that porting from x86 to ARM is really, really easy and all you would need to do is use a different compiler!
Ok great, why doesn't Nintendo use that to port from console to handheld?
The same argument can be used there.Nintendo doesn't want to develop the same game twice each generation. It really becomes redundant for them.
Besides I believe that Nintendo redefined their game market. Previously it was console and hand held, now it's "dedicated game system" and mobile.
potatohead
Member
Yea I bet it's to use with Tablets.
Ipad, Android tablets, etc (are there any others I dunno haha).
It's a money grab. Kinda goes hand-in-hand with the point of the N3DS.
Yeah but I mean if this just results in less costly ports, but not more ports of more franchises/cross play, then this doesn't make a lot of difference. We'll see I guess.
To be fair, that could be interpreted in a number of ways. There's the usual "console & handheld under one platform" possibility that we're speculating. And given previous slides mentioning another console & handheld as well as Iwata's quotes on the matter, those speculations may not be that far off-base. But some may interpret that as Nintendo doing away the dedicated handhelds going forward & focusing their efforts on their home consoles & mobile games. Granted, I don't think that's the case, but it is an interpretation that one could get from those statements.
Exterminieren
Banned
It's not doing damned well. It's over five years old, hardware sales have fallen off the cliff even with the New 3DS, and (Pokémon and Dragon Quest aside) the heavy hitters of its lineup are mostly late localisations.
Wii U has been dead for years. It's not likely to get any more dead anytime soon, and so Nintendo don't have to worry about momentum. 3DS, however, has gone from a relatively stable position to dropping like a stone- if they want to use any momentum, they need to release a successor ASAP.
Were I calling the shots, a 3DS replacement would be a much higher priority than a Wii U one. Rejuvenate the actually successful branch of the business first, and try to resurrect the home console business at leisure.
Pokemaniac
Member
Okay, so your claim is that porting from x86 to ARM is really, really easy and all you would need to do is use a different compiler!
Ok great, why doesn't Nintendo use that to port from console to handheld?
Certain types of software have no choice but to care about architecture. Maintaining an OS and toolchain for multiple architectures is not a walk in the park. Those get down and dirty so that other software doesn't have to.
Also, unless they implement it a certain way, it's going to encourage some particularly annoying tech debt that will make forwards compatibility super annoying.
dukeoflegs
Member
All these leakers is getting ridiculous. I could probably be a leaker on reddit if I sent in my linkedin page as confirmation, having a couple handful of people at Nintendo and 90% of my connections are in the game industry. But I wouldn't know shit because I've been in mobile the last two years because of the constant layoffs in the game industry.
The newest leaker sounds like his connections are people in QA and don't know the full story or are just hearing stuff through the grapevine. Not getting hardware yet sounds odd, when the PS4 and Xbone were announced the studio I was at got early hardware to get our game up and running on. We had engineers working on getting everthing set up (shaders, memory allocation, etc) and we didn't get test kits until after E3 for the test team to start doing QA. Half the shit the testers and a lot of the team would talk about in the lunch room was often mixed up because they heard one thing from someone and another from someone else and a rumor from the internet.
Yeah some of the shit he is saying might be true but I'm not taking anything serious until Nintendo talks.
The newest leaker sounds like his connections are people in QA and don't know the full story or are just hearing stuff through the grapevine. Not getting hardware yet sounds odd, when the PS4 and Xbone were announced the studio I was at got early hardware to get our game up and running on. We had engineers working on getting everthing set up (shaders, memory allocation, etc) and we didn't get test kits until after E3 for the test team to start doing QA. Half the shit the testers and a lot of the team would talk about in the lunch room was often mixed up because they heard one thing from someone and another from someone else and a rumor from the internet.
Yeah some of the shit he is saying might be true but I'm not taking anything serious until Nintendo talks.
Not really. Not only have 3DS sales been on the decline, but most of what we're getting now has been out in Japan for a while (with a few exceptions, such as Sun/Moon & DQXI). And for games like the new Kirby game, it's heavily based off of pre-existing engines (the Triple Deluxe engine in Kirby's case), which likely made the development time for that game much shorter. It's clear that most of Nintendo's true efforts have been moved to the NX Platform. Not to mention that the 3DS is starting to show its age from a hardware standpoint.
Could potentially be something that devs submit bytecode, and Nintendo distributes binaries + assets.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
I've never understood the motivation for fake leakers, I don't get it at all.
Is it purely attention seeking?
Is it purely attention seeking?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
For the record, I don't 'want' NX to be ARM-based, but ARM is by far the most logical path forward for a new gen console ecosystem coming out in 2016 (i.e. a console + a handheld + god-knows-what-else). For the game devs the ISA won't matter 95%* of the time. For the platform privder the ISA will matter a great deal - they have to double their efforts in a good deal of the HAL, last but not least, the security of the sandbox/VM. It's much easer and robust to have one ARMv8 hypervisor across the entire ecosystem**, than N different hypervisors.
* the remaining 5% being inline assembly and/or intrinsics - both things which are normally performance-tuned to the uarch, where things can differ across different x86's as much as they can across x86 and ARM.
** something trivial across ARM's bigLITTLE implementations.
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