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RedGamingTech: Xbox Series X Hot Chips Analysis Part 1 - GPU, CPU & Overview

Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
If there's rumble in the triggers I'd be surprised.

Haptic feedback is in the switch controllers. It provides more control over where the feedback can be felt while also allowing multiple sources of feedback.

Correct I believe Nintendo calls it HD rumble.

 
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They have a patent sure but they have never used tension in their triggers. They have only ever implemented the rumble triggers. It provides force feedback but it's still different then tension. It's a type of feedback yes but its a different feedback.

It really depends on the result of the tension. I personally don't think it'll ever be like a lock. It will be more akin to varying levels of tension during the throw.

Like a bow would take more force at the begining of the pull but as the trigger is pressed it would get easier.

Or if you had a sawed off it would be a short double burst tension for the trigger.

Rumble Triggers could provide feedback as well like with the bow a strong rumble could indicate the start of the pull with a fadeout of rumble as the draw is completed.
bow should be opposite, easy at first then progressively as you pull, stronger.
but yes, all tactile effects I described above -as described in engadget article- have been possible minus the trigger lock.
I even described more, like a tactile feedback on your trigger when your ammo clip is about to empty, feedback for a perfect reload, for the gas trigger progressively informing about losing traction when overspinning, the brake trigger progressively informing for a wheel lock, etc
 
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Nikana

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bow should be opposite, easy at first then progressively as you pull, stronger.
but yes, all tactile effects I described above -as described in engadget article- have been possible minus the trigger lock.
I even described more, like a tactile feedback on your trigger when your ammo clip is about to empty, feedback for a perfect reload, for the gas trigger progressively informing about losing traction when overspinning, the brake trigger progressively informing for a wheel lock, etc

Correct. I'm with you. They both provide feedback but they aren't directly the same in how they will achieve it.

The issue is very few devs ever used the rumble triggerd.
 

Nikana

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Which is basically the variable resistance at maximum settings.



I'm not sure how often the variable resistance triggers will be used either. Could just be another gimmick or a widely used feature.

I feel like the application will be easier to apply vs rumble triggers but like the touchpad I feel like it will have a generic use for most games.
 

jimbojim

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I even described more, like a tactile feedback on your trigger when your ammo clip is about to empty, feedback for a perfect reload, for the gas trigger progressively informing about losing traction when overspinning, the brake trigger progressively informing for a wheel lock, etc

You mean rumble motors just starts vibrating and depends on situation, how strong is vibrating. Like bz, bz, bz, bz, or bzzz, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz or bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bzzzzzzzzzzz. Good.
 
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You mean rumble motors just starts vibrating and depends on situation, how strong is vibrating. Like bz, bz, bz, bz, or bzzz, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz or bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bzzzzzzzzzzz. Good.

TheGreatWhiteShark TheGreatWhiteShark

I think what he's saying is that feedback in the triggers is nothing new. However they both do feedback in very different ways.

1. The DualSense uses motors to adjust the tension of the triggers.

2. The Xbox controller uses rumble in the trigger.

So back to the double barrelled shotgun example.

1. With the DualSense pulling the trigger halfway down fires the first barrel. You will notice the half way point when the trigger becomes more difficult to pull. Once you pull it past that point the second barrel will fire.

2. With the Xbox controller you pull the trigger to fire off the first barrel. When you get close to the half way point the trigger will vibrate letting you know you reached the breaking point. Once you pull past that point the second barrel will fire.

My opinion on which one is better:

I believe that the DualSense will be more noticeable because when your playing through an intense match the trigger stopping you from going further is better than just a vibration. A good question is raised and that's the durability of the motor in the PS5s trigger. How easy it will be to break or wear out remains to be seen.
 
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Jun 13, 2020
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Correct. I'm with you. They both provide feedback but they aren't directly the same in how they will achieve it.

The issue is very few devs ever used the rumble triggerd.
You know what? Because some comments here made me question my memory, I went to elite setup and putted the trigger feedback to max.
I had it at 15% for a reason: when at max they provide tension instead of useful tactile feedback information, and I had found this to be distracting and gimmicky.
When increasing towards full, if you try to depress the trigger there sure is trigger resistance, and lot of vibration.
Anybody can try this and see for himself.



As for games, cod, battlefield, halo, forza, gears, horizon, dirt etc sure come to mind.


You mean rumble motors just starts vibrating and depends on situation, how strong is vibrating. Like bz, bz, bz, bz, or bzzz, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz or bzzzzzzzzzzzz, bzzzzzzzzzzz. Good.
Off to my ignore list
 
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captainraincoat

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Having a controller that has an on the fly tension would be fucking annoying and be up there with features like six axis that you would simply turn off.

Rumble in the trigger would also be extremely diminished as you would need parts that would not only conduct vibration
But also are strong enough to withstand various pressure from strong or weak hands.

Sony ain’t known for their durability so better empty out that broken ds4 draw ready for the new controllers
 

jimbojim

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You know what? Because some comments here made me question my memory, I went to elite setup and putted the trigger feedback to max.
I had it at 15% for a reason: when at max they provide tension instead of useful tactile feedback information, and I had found this to be distracting and gimmicky.
When increasing towards full, if you try to depress the trigger there sure is trigger resistance, and lot of vibration.
Anybody can try this and see for himself.



As for games, cod, battlefield, halo, forza, gears, horizon, dirt etc sure come to mind.



Off to my ignore list

Lol. So you just prove with screenshot what i'm talked about all the time. A vibration in triggers and how strong it vibrates depends on situation. So, no resistance in that. There is no resistance option at all. It just vibrates.

Vibration = resistance

Yeah....no

So salty that you must put me on ignore list. Well, that's desperation
 
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Boglin

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You know what? Because some comments here made me question my memory, I went to elite setup and putted the trigger feedback to max.
I had it at 15% for a reason: when at max they provide tension instead of useful tactile feedback information, and I had found this to be distracting and gimmicky.
When increasing towards full, if you try to depress the trigger there sure is trigger resistance, and lot of vibration.
Anybody can try this and see for himself.



As for games, cod, battlefield, halo, forza, gears, horizon, dirt etc sure come to mind.



Off to my ignore list

I don't know why it's different for you but I just tested it for myself and I don't feel a change in resistance no matter what the vibration level set at, which is what makes sense and what I expected. I don't know the pull weight of an Xbox trigger but hypothetically, lets just say it's 5 pounds.
Regardless of if the vibration intensity is set to 0% or 100%, if there is 5 pounds of force pushing down on the trigger then it will depress because vibration does not change the resistance.

You need a mechanism like the one in the Dualsense or the unused Xbox controller patent to have variable tension.
 
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MrFunSocks

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Just remember as well that if it’s a hardware specific feature, it most likely is not going to be used in more than a handful of games, most of which will be first party.

Nothing against Sony, nothing against the feature which I think could be great, but developers just have zero reason to make anything important tied to hardware specific features, especially in this cross platform and backwards compatible age.

Pressure sensitive buttons on the DualShock? Irrelevant.

Trackpad on DS4? Irrelevant.

Rumble triggers on XB1? Irrelevant.

Doesn’t take a genius to see the pattern.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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The console with the best audio will be the console that:

allows audio to be passed on to an external DAC, for superior SQ
 

onQ123

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Just remember as well that if it’s a hardware specific feature, it most likely is not going to be used in more than a handful of games, most of which will be first party.

Nothing against Sony, nothing against the feature which I think could be great, but developers just have zero reason to make anything important tied to hardware specific features, especially in this cross platform and backwards compatible age.

Pressure sensitive buttons on the DualShock? Irrelevant.

Trackpad on DS4? Irrelevant.

Rumble triggers on XB1? Irrelevant.

Doesn’t take a genius to see the pattern.


The difference is that it's in the trigger & the haptic feedback is in the controller so it doesn't require the user to lean any new inputs so devs will use it a lot more than they would something like a touchpad or motion controls.
 
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Vognerful

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Its in the video that we are discussing. Try watching it first might help.



Paul is a pC gamer, he is only interest in consoles is it gives him info on RDNA2 and PC stuff upcoming.

His leaks maybe right, maybe wrong. Time will tell. Anyway, XSX is also a blade server so would unified L3 help in that application ? MS did refer to the CPU as server class.

Maybe mS chose what they need for what they want to do ?
I keep seeing you repeating this statement like it is disadvantage (the server blade thing), why and how is that?
 

Vognerful

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But what about trigger tension? Do the triggers on Xbox become harder to pull or is it just rumble?

Edit: This helps explain what I'm talking about.




"The documents detail an "input device" leveraging a "linear geared feedback trigger" and "motor-driven adjustable-tension trigger." In short, Microsoft is experimenting with force-feedback and adjustable-tension, hoping to elevate real-time trigger feedback. The feature could allow titles to impose variable resistance on the buttons, repelling player actions in-line with on-screen actions."

The red is what I'm asking about. I know the X1 controller has force feedback in the triggers it's the adjustable tension that I'm asking about.

"As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "
how long that gear shaft will last?
 

Vognerful

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No idea but I already asked that question in a previous post. If Sony designed it properly it should last quite a while.
I am worried because continuous load on the trigger that means some part has to take the load every time. Is it plastic or metalic components? how much energy drain is being consumed against the press? how easy if someone wanted to break it (I assume they probably put a threshold on the amount of force and then the lock releases automatically).
 
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I am worried because continuous load on the trigger that means some part has to take the load every time. Is it plastic or metalic components? how much energy drain is being consumed against the press? how easy if someone wanted to break it (I assume they probably put a threshold on the amount of force and then the lock releases automatically).

I had triggers give me issues in both my Xbox One and PS4 controllers so I understand your concern. I really do hope the controllers are more durable this time around. Thankfully the DualSense will not be anywhere near the elite controllers price which I have had issues with in the past.
 
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jimbojim

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Jimbojim living up to his tag, i see.

I'm trolling here because i've said nothing wrong? Well, that's a stretch. What you would say for then for TheGreatWhiteShark TheGreatWhiteShark who repeated over and over the same thing and trying to prove that X1 gamepad has a mechanism like Dualsense, but it doens't have it at all? Where is the logic in that the rumble motor which just create a vibrations and nothing else, can create a resistance? That's stupidity by a mile.
Or maybe he thinks that spring on the wrist inside of the trigger creates so called resistance. LOL. But purpose of that spring is actually and obviously is to bring back the trigger up ( just like on DualShock 4 or other gamepads with triggers).
 
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Agnostic2020

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80ROPs not CUs , that number was thrown around simply to claim that XSX was BIG NAVI while PS5 was LITE NAVI. It was also to make XSX rasterization and pixel fillrate higher than PS5 which again ended up not true.
Sorry haven’t checked the vid yet . does it say how many ROp is XSX? I remember seeing 80 to 110 ROP by xbox fans and even mister media had it at 120 ROP In his moronic chart saying its double PS5
 

MrFunSocks

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So now the war is on audio on and haptic feedback...
Audio will soon be given up on by the blue faithful since it’s now been proven that the Xbox has essentially the same thing, just like they’ve now shut up completely about the Geometry Engine being the secret sauce after the Xbox was confirmed to have it too. It’ll be all in on Haptic Triggers now, or crappy little speakers on the controller.
 

martino

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Is it not ironic that you extrapolated that from "By thin air you must mean discussing the content of the video the thread is about."
The very thing you accused others of doing.

But are you denying or going to ignore that unified l3 cache was discussed 11 minutes into the video.

This is a topic about a long video. People can't be expected to disuss all of the video in a single post. That's not how normal discussion works.

If I think a person has nice legs, you pointing out I didn't mention their eyes doesn't invalidate my statement.

Pointing out the reasons you disagree would however be adding to the conversation. No need to play the victim.
Join in and have some fun. Otherwise why even bother right? Life's to short to waste on upsetting yourself over other people's opinions or discussions that your not into.

Ms pushing those dual purpose server use is cool though. Suits their agenda I reckon.

the "from thin air" is for RGT though (this is RDNA 3 again)
Of course it please a particular audience
you know criticize people reactions of the video is also a thing that can happen in discussion.
now answer the question :
is 5 sec baseless speculation thought about ps5 the first and most important information a normal person would retain from a xbox hot chip video confirming lot of stuff ?
 
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Agnostic2020

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Audio will soon be given up on by the blue faithful since it’s now been proven that the Xbox has essentially the same thing, just like they’ve now shut up completely about the Geometry Engine being the secret sauce after the Xbox was confirmed to have it too. It’ll be all in on Haptic Triggers now, or crappy little speakers on the controller.
Lol you believe blue noGrohe who said audio is better in XSX?yikess

this was a table posted by him In may saying XSX has 80 times better raytracing than ps5.😂😂

but we found out XSX has 15% raytracing advantage (321 vs 380) not 80000%. Don’t listen to that fucking clown lol




PS5 audio chip iS more capable than XSX And that will be seen very soon
 
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jimbojim

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Audio will soon be given up on by the blue faithful since it’s now been proven that the Xbox has essentially the same thing, just like they’ve now shut up completely about the Geometry Engine being the secret sauce after the Xbox was confirmed to have it too.

That depends how Sony customize it. You know, maybe it doesn't have a VRS where you, the green faithful screaming about that.

Regarding audio at Hot chips Microsoft's figure totals a number of audio hardware units, including a programmable unit.

Sony's figure is for the programmable unit only.
 
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geordiemp

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I keep seeing you repeating this statement like it is disadvantage (the server blade thing), why and how is that?

Where did I say it was an advantage or a disadvantage ? The PCB board in 2 parts, the CPU and the layout has been specifically designed as a server to run 4 instances probably with 40 GB RAM if the dev kit info is true. That is the focus of the design by MS.

Hence, probably why it also has fixed lower GPU clock than RD|NA2 (but we await PC parts to compare) as 4 games could be at different stages in a frame, maybe a common CPU cache is also not suited and other deisgn considerations with the silicon choices and layout. Maybe its why CPU is clocked relatively higher than GPU ?

Its a simple observation and discussion point. What do you think ?
 
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MrFunSocks

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Lol you believe blue noGrohe who said audio is better in XSX?yikess

this was a table posted by him In may saying XSX has 80 times better raytracing than ps5.😂😂

but we found out XSX has 15% raytracing advantage (321 vs 380) not 80000%. Don’t listen to that fucking clown lol




PS5 audio chip iS more capable than XSX And that will be seen very soon
That depends how Sony customize it. You know, maybe it doesn't have a VRS where you, the green faithful screaming about that.

Regarding audio at Hot chips Microsoft's figure totals a number of audio hardware units, including a programmable unit.

Sony's figure is for the programmable unit only.
I haven’t said shit about any of that fanboy wars bullshit. Both consoles can do hundreds of sources in 3D audio. Both have HTRF or whatever you’re all arguing about. The Xbox one can even do 3D audio. The PS5 might have a bit more customisation in its audio chip, it might not make any difference. The end result is no one is going to notice a difference other than maybe people with a more expensive sound system than most people make here in 6 months.

An Audio chip being better or worse is pretty much irrelevant when they’re both doing more than 99% of people will ever need. It’s not the secret sauce you want. I’d be saying the same thing if the Xbox had a proven undeniable edge - it’s a freaking audio chip, it makes no difference. Stop clinging to it.
 
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jimbojim

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I haven’t said shit about any of that fanboy wars bullshit.

But what is this post of yours then?

Audio will soon be given up on by the blue faithful since it’s now been proven that the Xbox has essentially the same thing, just like they’ve now shut up completely about the Geometry Engine being the secret sauce after the Xbox was confirmed to have it too. It’ll be all in on Haptic Triggers now, or crappy little speakers on the controller.
 

MrFunSocks

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But what is this post of yours then?
You need to brush up on your comprehension skills, and how to follow a conversation.

I was saying that the blue crowd will just move on to the next secret sauce because this latest one has been debunked......which it has, and they will.
 

jimbojim

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You need to brush up on your comprehension skills, and how to follow a conversation.

I was saying that the blue crowd will just move on to the next secret sauce because this latest one has been debunked......which it has, and they will.

Your post was just to fuel console wars. That's a fanboy war crap to me. Blaming one side, but at same time won't blame the other side. If you trying to paint yourself as neutral, you failed.
 
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MrFunSocks

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Your post was just to fuel console wars. That's a fanboy war crap to me. Blaming one side, but at same time won't blame the other side. If you trying to paint yourself as neutral, you failed.
Laughing at fanboy arguments isn’t fuelling fanboy wars, it’s laughing at them, but please tell me again how I’m the fanboy mr “report me for trolling Xbox threads” tag.
 
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CrysisFreak

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Just

Just like the touch screen on the PS4 controller..


You'll see a few third parties use it at first (maybe) then it will be thrown by the wayside.
Adaptive triggers are a much more significant feature than the touchpad, at the same time it is much easier to implement, devs just need to set the trigger resistances.
Plus third parties already said they like it, no problem. It's going to be great and it's not going to disappear just because green people say "not gonna b used lmao"
 

Panajev2001a

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Just

Just like the touch screen on the PS4 controller..


You'll see a few third parties use it at first (maybe) then it will be thrown by the wayside.

I sense some wishful thinking there... it could be as good as impulse triggers ;)... or better.

Jokes aside, the gimmick is as good as both how easy and intuitive it is to take advantage of as well as how versatile and useful it is. Haptic feedback is the next generation evolution of rumble and if the engine they pack is matched to the controller weight well it should offer a nice noticeable improvement without risking low third party adoption (similar API’s as what you have on iOS, Switch, etc... likely). Do you really wonder about rumble adoption?

Variable force feedback triggers may see some internal first party adoption dwarfing third party adoption, but they could catch on with third parties as well as they definitely seem far easier to make good use of in games than the touchpad (which would have seen more use had it been a screen too).

Any racing game or game with driving segments or any FPS can make basic force feedback trigger use for example and then you can build from there.
 
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Agnostic2020

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Visible audio difference? Now that is something.

The audio chips seem to be much of a muchness despite the Tempest™ PR. You'll still need a respectable sound setup to make the most of either. I'm not buying the whole 'even TV speakers will be amazing' shtick.
By seeing i meant we will see how many sound sources each game will get based on MultiPlatform games on both consoles. And the whole tempest engine is for you to not buy a single speaker more than a normal headphone or tv speakers
 
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MrFunSocks

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Adaptive triggers are a much more significant feature than the touchpad, at the same time it is much easier to implement, devs just need to set the trigger resistances.
Plus third parties already said they like it, no problem. It's going to be great and it's not going to disappear just because green people say "not gonna b used lmao"
Again though - how’s that trackpad support going?

It won’t be used because it’s a platform specific feature. The Xbox rumble triggers were also simple to use, “just set the rumble level”. The pressure sensitive buttons were simple to use, “just set the pressure settings”.


By seeing i meant we will see how many sound sources each game will get based on MultiPlatform games on both consoles. And the whole tempest engine is for you to not buy a single speaker more than a normal headphone or tv speakers
Both consoles have 3D audio, not just the Ps5. Sony just gave their audio system a cool name exactly to make people think it’s something exclusive to them and groundbreaking.

If anyone seriously thinks that these audio systems will give you anything even remotely similar to surround sound with a headset or your stereo tv speakers they’re delusional.
 
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Black_Stride

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Just remember as well that if it’s a hardware specific feature, it most likely is not going to be used in more than a handful of games, most of which will be first party.

Nothing against Sony, nothing against the feature which I think could be great, but developers just have zero reason to make anything important tied to hardware specific features, especially in this cross platform and backwards compatible age.

Pressure sensitive buttons on the DualShock? Irrelevant.

Trackpad on DS4? Irrelevant.

Rumble triggers on XB1? Irrelevant.

Doesn’t take a genius to see the pattern.

I hate to have to agree.
All these controller gimmicks dont change the world and within 2 years after devs have had their forced fun with it, they will go back to "normal"

You can add:
Light Bar
Gyro
Speaker

Of the thousands of games released you could count the ones that did anything special with these components on your fingers and toes.
 

Panajev2001a

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Again though - how’s that trackpad support going?

It won’t be used because it’s a platform specific feature. The Xbox rumble triggers were also simple to use, “just set the rumble level”. The pressure sensitive buttons were simple to use, “just set the pressure settings”.

Part of it is how simple it is to use and the other is how significant they are to gameplay and how easy they are to adapt to the game. We got some kickass use of pressure sensitive buttons on PS2 actually from third parties nonetheless (see MGS2), but yes it also depends on how popular a console is and how much first parties are pushing the features and showing their viability. Luckily Sony PS is well covered with that too.

Everything platform specific is a waste and not useful to consumers? Good news, no need for Sony to worry about not having the performance crown then I guess ;). </s>
 

Panajev2001a

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I hate to have to agree.
All these controller gimmicks dont change the world and within 2 years after devs have had their forced fun with it, they will go back to "normal"

You can add:
Light Bar
Gyro
Speaker

Of the thousands of games released you could count the ones that did anything special with these components on your fingers and toes.

Perhaps, but games that have added gyro aiming and good speaker use are games I bought and enjoy so happy me :D. Yeah opportunities :).
 
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MrFunSocks

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Part of it is how simple it is to use and the other is how significant they are to gameplay and how easy they are to adapt to the game. We got some kickass use of pressure sensitive buttons on PS2 actually from third parties nonetheless (see MGS2), but yes it also depends on how popular a console is and how much first parties are pushing the features and showing their viability. Luckily Sony PS is well covered with that too.

Everything platform specific is a waste and not useful to consumers? Good news, no need for Sony to worry about not having the performance crown then I guess ;). </s>
But again - the PS4 “won” this generation easier than any other has been won, yet where is the trackpad support from 3rd parties? If console sales mattered it would be everywhere wouldn’t it? Same with the light bar. Same with pressure sensitive buttons. Same with gyro. Sales mean nothing. Hardware features being integrated as anything other than a gimmick means that game is now essentially tied to that hardware forever. In this era of backwards compatibility and multi platform releases that’s just not feasible.

Also what you said about extra power makes no sense. Having extra power means that by default the Xbox version will run better than the PS version, they’re not at all comparable things.
 
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Panajev2001a

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But again - the PS5 “won” this generation easier than any other has been won, yet where is the trackpad support from 3rd parties? If console sales mattered it would be everywhere wouldn’t it? Same with the light bar. Same with pressure sensitive buttons. Same with gyro. Sales mean nothing.

I pointed out several factors that all have to align, taking each apart in isolation is a bit meaningless and I think you know that.

Sales of course play a part as it is part of the Return on Investment calculation you need to run/a forecast of how much investing in one feature will bring and how much you will not earn by not doing other things instead (the Opportunity Cost concept).

Hardware features being integrated as anything other than a gimmick means that game is now essentially tied to that hardware forever. In this era of backwards compatibility and multi platform releases that’s just not feasible.

It depends, if it helps sell better on that platform or to differentiate or get marketing support from the platform holder (imagine being in a big Dual Sense recurring set of ads by Sony). It is the platform holder’s responsibility to take HW feature people may have fallen in love with and ensure they are present in day PS6 controllers.

The games themselves also still remain playable without force feedback in the triggers. MGS2 and MGS3 play best on PS2 controllers, but they still plays great with PS3 or Xbox ones...

Also what you said about extra power makes no sense. Having extra power means that by default the Xbox version will run better than the PS version, they’re not at all comparable things.

Sure they are, if you are interested in large scale differences and not just winning points for your team in a DF shootout at 300% magnification. You know this.
 
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