Support NeoGAF

[Mr Fahrenheit]

If you don't use probability and statistics in your everyday life, you're making a bunch of terrible decisions and won't be able to know when to take news or statistics seriously.

That's all basic stuff that most people already know by that point. If you're just learning probability for the first time in a college algebra course then you should probably file some complaints with whatever public school system(s) you went through.

 

[KiwiLannister]

That's all basic stuff that most people already know by that point. If you're just learning probability for the first time in a college algebra course then you should probably file some complaints with whatever public school system you went through.

There is much more to statistics, even in the the news, than basic probability.

I don't understand why it's trendy or cool to be ignorant with maths. If you were bragging about how little you knew about the middle east or asia or languages or writing or communication skills people would laugh at you. But "LOL MATH IS USELESS AMIRITE GUYS?!?!?" is somehow okay?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

There is much more to statistics, even in the the news, than basic probability.

I don't understand why it's trendy or cool to be ignorant with maths. If you were bragging about how little you knew about the middle east or asia or languages or writing or communication skills people would laugh at you. But "LOL MATH IS USELESS AMIRITE GUYS?!?!?" is somehow okay?

Well yea, but those are all more useful than math :^)

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

The problem isn't that you don't need math or that it's dull, the problem is that it's taught in an utterly boring and abstract way that no one can relate to.

Who needs to have students mentally engaged in any way when you can just hand them a book at the beginning of the semester and have them endlessly fill out a series of equations with no context or explanation for any of them?

 

[nabe_shogun]

From what I understand the SATs don't have calculus? I was surprised when I heard that, we started learning calculus in our second to last year of high school and it's made engineering pretty easy since a lot of the hard work was already out of the way.

To take calculus at my high school, you basically had to be a year ahead in math. Normally you would take either trig or pre-calc your senior year.
Also, taking math your senior year wasn't even required. I think you only had to take it up to 10 or 11th grade.

It could be different these days, as this was 11 years ago for me.

 

[jerry1594]

I don't think somebody who uses an "and" to start a sentence should be complaining about anything teachers say because they clearly didn't pay attention during school.

Wow. You sound smart. OP listen to this smart guy he knows his shit.

 

[The Lamp]

The problem isn't that you don't need math or that it's dull, the problem is that it's taught in an utterly boring and abstract way that no one can relate to.

Who needs to have students mentally engaged in any way when you can just hand them a book at the beginning of the semester and have them endlessly fill out a series of equations with no context or explanation for any of them?

Math wasn't exciting to me until I got to see its applications in STEM and business. Then it was like "whoa this is fucking magic!" Calculus is one of the most beautiful things I've ever encountered once I realized that it is the language of nature. Differential equations is like poetry.

But most of those magical practical application classes don't have time to teach you math so they assume you did your time and know it in order to learn the subject.

Basically then, math demands faith and patience from people in order to see its fruits. Few people fall in love with math at its bare, naked, abstract form.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Well yea, but those are all more useful than math :^)

You are posting on a website about video games on a forum, maintained on a server, with either a computer or a miniature computer.

 

[zoukka]

This another "dumb and proud of it" thread?

 

[Cocaloch]

Good that we know that people with T and E degrees can't become better people.

I'm going to assume this is a joke, but if not, do you think that Technology and Engineering education is done with the intent of making a better person as opposed to technical training?

 

[KiwiLannister]

To take calculus at my high school, you basically had to be a year ahead in math. Normally you would take either trig or pre-calc your senior year.

It could be different these days, as this was 11 years ago for me.

That seems like a pretty slow progression. I mean you've been at school for 13 years by the time you finish high school, is all you manage to do basic numeracy, basic geometry and fractions/percentages by year 12? At my high school we started with algebra, trig, geometry, graphs in the first year (this is the equivalent of grade 9 in the US, we don't really do middle school here), and were doing Poisson distributions, volumes of revolution and trig identities in our final year.

Maybe there is too much emphasis on basic numeracy and people are bored because of that? It seems like for most adults that is what their impression of maths is, and I'd have been bored to tears if that was what high school math was for me.

I'm going to assume this is a joke, but if not, do you think that Technology and Engineering education is done with the intent of making a better person as opposed to technical training?

Technology and Engineering degrees are some of the only ones that actually do what universities advertise them to do. Most people go to university because they think degree = job. Nobody would pay $30k (and from what I hear it's much worse in a lot of places) and 4 years of their lives just to get a bit of general knowledge, most people are at university specifically because they think it will pay off with their job later on.

 

[Chance Hale]

Trig identities are part of either a separate Trigonometry class or pre-calculus in the US. You would learn those in either the 11th or 12 grade depending on whether you were ahead in math or not. General progression is Algebra, Geometry, Algebra 2, Trig, Pre-Calculus(or skip to Calculus 1 at a college)

 

[nabe_shogun]

Math wasn't exciting to me until I got to see its applications in STEM and business. Then it was like "whoa this is fucking magic!" Calculus is one of the most beautiful things I've ever encountered once I realized that it is the language of nature. Differential equations is like poetry.

But most of those magical practical application classes don't have time to teach you math so they assume you did your time and know it in order to learn the subject.

Basically then, math demands faith and patience from people in order to see its fruits. Few people fall in love with math at its bare, naked, abstract form.

This kinda sums it up for me. I hated taking math classes, and I barely passed most of them. Yet when I used what I learned in other classes like physics or chemistry, it somehow became easier and less tedious.

 

[KiwiLannister]

Trig identities are part of either a separate Trigonometry class or pre-calculus in the US. You would learn those in either the 11th or 12 grade depending on whether you were ahead in math or not.

Interesting, I found those harder than a lot of the calculus we were learning at that stage. Trig identities were pretty abstract compared to calculus.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Math wasn't exciting to me until I got to see its applications in STEM and business. Then it was like "whoa this is fucking magic!" Calculus is one of the most beautiful things I've ever encountered once I realized that it is the language of nature. Differential equations is like poetry.

But most of those magical practical application classes don't have time to teach you math so they assume you did your time and know it in order to learn the subject.

Basically then, math demands faith and patience from people in order to see its fruits. Few people fall in love with math at its bare, naked, abstract form.

Yeah, because it's just a bunch of numbers and nobody tells kids that it's anything else, they just insist that it's "important." Imagine if you tried to teach English and writing by, I don't know, giving the kids a goddamn dictionary and nothing else. Kids don't get to see the whole picture and what math can do; they just see it as the subject they do poorly in and gives the most homework.
Why does math have so much goddamn homework anyway? There's more emphasis on memorization and drilling than actual comprehension.

 

[Cocaloch]

Technology and Engineering degrees are some of the only ones that actually do what universities advertise them to do. Most people go to university because they think degree = job. Nobody would pay $30k (and from what I hear it's much worse in a lot of places) and 4 years of their lives just to get a bit of general knowledge, most people are at university specifically because they think it will pay off with their job later on.

Except people have been doing just that for most of the academy's history, though obviously it's not just a bit of general knowledge. I think most degrees from colleges in reputable universities do what they are "advertised", not that many really do much in the way of advertising about what an education does, as doing. I do think the popular idea of what a university is for doesn't bare much similarity to what the academy thinks universities are for.

 

[KiwiLannister]

Except people have been doing just that for most of the academy's history. I think most degrees from colleges in reputable universities do what they are "advertised", not that many really do much in the way of advertising about what an education does, as doing. I do think the popular idea of what a university is for doesn't bare much similarity to what the academy thinks universities are for.

True. I definitely think that universities need to separate into separate teaching and research institutions. Most universities do an absolutely embarrassingly poor job of actually teaching students. Literally just giving students the textbooks and then asking them to study for the exam/do the assignments is probably as effective as the work they currently do. Lectures are probably one of the worst possible ways to learn a subject.

One thing I think more degrees need is a stronger emphasis on projects. It's the only thing that I actually enjoy doing in my degree (mechanical eng) because when you do a group project with 15 people and produce a quality 80 page report, you learn a lot of valuable communication, teamwork and time management skills that you don't get when cramming for a test.

 

[rrc1594]

I always felt math made you a great problem solver. That's the biggest thing I took away from math

 

[nabe_shogun]

That seems like a pretty slow progression. I mean you've been at school for 13 years by the time you finish high school, is all you manage to do basic numeracy, basic geometry and fractions/percentages by year 12? At my high school we started with algebra, trig, geometry, graphs in the first year (this is the equivalent of grade 9 in the US, we don't really do middle school here), and were doing Poisson distributions, volumes of revolution and trig identities in our final year.

Maybe there is too much emphasis on basic numeracy and people are bored because of that? It seems like for most adults that is what their impression of maths is, and I'd have been bored to tears if that was what high school math was for me.

Its possible it could just be slow progression, and like I said it's probably changed now.
Its also possible we went more in depth, or spending more time on certain subjects.

Basically, in 9th grade was Algebra, 10th was Geometry, 11th was Algebra 2, then 12th was Trigonometry or Pre-Calculus.

I ended up taking Trigonometry my senior year. Then in college, took Pre-Calculus, then Calculus my 1st and 2nd semester. I could have gone straight in to Calculus, but I decided to take pre-calc my first semester, which I'm glad I did.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

That's all basic stuff that most people already know by that point. If you're just learning probability for the first time in a college algebra course then you should probably file some complaints with whatever public school system(s) you went through.

Did you really learn conditional probability and Bayes' rule before highschool algebra?

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

You are posting on a website about video games on a forum, maintained on a server, with either a computer or a miniature computer.

And? I'm aware of this. In fact I was a network specialist for an investment bank, so I'm probably a little bit more than aware.

 

[KiwiLannister]

Its possible it could just be slow progression, and like I said it's probably changed now.
Its also possible we went more in depth, or spending more time on certain subjects.

Basically, in 9th grade was Algebra, 10th was Geometry, 11th was Algebra 2, then 12th was Trigonometry or Pre-Calculus.

I ended up taking Trigonometry my senior year. Then in college, took Pre-Calculus, then Calculus my 1st and 2nd semester. I could have gone straight in to Calculus, but I decided to take pre-calc my first semester, which I'm glad I did.

Wait does the US school system only have 12 years? That would help explain it then. We do 13 years and finish when we're 18 (+- 6 months)

And? I'm aware of this. In fact I was a network specialist for an investment bank, so I'm probably a little bit more than aware.

Wait what, you worked for a company that makes millions and millions of dollars using maths, and you don't see the value in it?

 

[nabe_shogun]

Wait does the US school system only have 12 years? That would help explain it then. We do 13 years and finish when we're 18 (+- 6 months)



Wait what, you worked for a company that makes millions and millions of dollars using maths, and you don't see the value in it?

No, there's 13. You start with kindergarten, then 1st grade through 12th grade. You turn 18 your last year in high school, or in the summer right after for some people.

 

[Joni]

I never learned anything else than cursive, and it is quite useful considering I write multiple pages of notes each day.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Wait what, you worked for a company that makes millions and millions of dollars using maths, and you don't see the value in it?

Ya'll should probably take a break from math and brush up on reading comprehension because I literally said

No one is saying math is universally useless and we should stop teaching it all together

I never said there's no value in math, that's just you trying to give a reductionist representation of what I said to make it sound stupid.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This another "dumb and proud of it" thread?

Yes.

 

[Two Words]

Recursive solutions seem like some black magic the first time you use them.

 

[KiwiLannister]

Ya'll should probably take a break from math and brush up on reading comprehension because I literally said

I never said there's no value in math, that's just you trying to give a reductionist representation of what I said to make it sound stupid.

This entire thread is just trying to mock a subject area that you didn't happen to go into. I don't see similar threads "Remember when teachers told u biology/geography/history/p.e./drama/music was important".

 

[SkyOdin]

It's important to at least know addition, subtraction, division, multiplication, fractions and percentage.

That's useful in real life. The rest not so much and could be learned in college IMO.

I guess the pythagorean theorem and basic binomial theorem might be useful to..somehow.

If you don't know how to use algebra, you are not prepared to solve the vast majority of real world problems. Do you want to know how many years of your life you are going to spend paying off your credit card bill? Do you want to know how much of your income you should be saving to prepare for retirement? Then you need to know how algebra and exponents work.

The pythagorean theorem is just a simple part of geometry, and geometry is simply the math you use to describe physical space. If you want to do something such as install a new patio for your house, you better have some idea for how geometry works. There is a reason they call it geometry: literally the "measurement of land".

 

[Violet_0]

My teachers told me grammer was important.

and, did it ever work out for u??

 

[Orkidea]

I have never had find X or Y since grade 12. BS

 

[Ryaaan14]

This entire thread is just trying to mock a subject area that you didn't happen to go into. I don't see similar threads "Remember when teachers told u biology/geography/history/p.e./drama/music was important".

tbh I could've put a lot more stuff into the OP

I just thought math and cursive would be the biggest hitters

Altho geography and history is important imo since u kinda gotta know that stuff to be worldly

 

[thetrin]

Math IS useful. Do you seriously think you'd be able to figure out tipping or tax without knowing math?

What about balancing your budget and buying groceries?

Just because you CAN use a calculator, you still need to know how it works.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

This entire thread is just trying to mock a subject area that you didn't happen to go into. I don't see similar threads "Remember when teachers told u biology/geography/history/p.e./drama/music was important".

Okay, am I the entire thread? I didn't say math had no value, in fact I specifically said thats not what I thought, so don't reply to me like I said things that I didn't.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

tbh I could've put a lot more stuff into the OP

I just thought math and cursive would be the biggest hitters

Altho geography and history is important imo since u kinda gotta know that stuff to be worldly

You kinda have to know math and science to be worldly, too.

Math IS useful. Do you seriously think you'd be able to figure out tipping or tax without knowing math?

What about balancing your budget and buying groceries?

Just because you CAN use a calculator, you still need to know how it works.

I love how the OP references taxes as something schools don't teach you in a thread about how math isn't important.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Math IS useful. Do you seriously think you'd be able to figure out tipping or tax without knowing math?

What about balancing your budget and buying groceries?

Just because you CAN use a calculator, you still need to know how it works.

I may be stupid but I'm not so stupid to believe people shouldn't know BASIC math

Check sum of the other posts I made on the first page

 

[paradise_circus]

And write in cursive and shit? Any time I have to do a math problem I can just flip up the calculator on my Apple iPhone 6 and I dare u to try and write something in cursive

It would've made school way more fun if teachers would have been real about what stuff was good to know. Like hb having a class about filing taxes or shopping for credit cards

Math is not solely numbers.

Propositional calculus in school can really help to advance logical and abstract reasoning, which is needed to formulate and understand arguments thoroughly. The skill to interpret graphs is even more useful and of course basic calculus.

However, my problem with many others are how they just simply neglect math, because they are no math people. This shit is even said to children to excuse there struggle with math. Hence, people begin to struggle with a simple derivative or integral in there whole education.

 

[WickedCobra03]

Basic arithmetic isn't that important, but knowing how to do more complicated maths is really useful.


No because it takes years to teach maths up to that level. You can rush it but it's not advisable.

Agreed. The basic "24.25/3" division answer isn't the part that teachers are trying to say is important, it's the logic behind it and how to get to that answer that's important. Numbers don't mean much without a solid foundation or understanding of what they mean.

Even today, working in Science, I am double checking answers that I or others get and always making sure that they make sense.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

I am a physics major, and you are wrong.

 

[Famassu]

The one thing that can be a bit problematic with math teaching/learning is that 1) it constantly builds upon itself so usually to know how to do certain stuff later on you really need to have an adequate enough understanding of earlier concepts & theories and 2) it can advance a bit too quickly for some students since not everyone is a natural at math and certain kind of abstract & logical thinking doesn't come as easily to some people as it comes to others, especially at a young age. Oftentimes some adults can notice they'll understand something very easily when they turn 30 whereas when they were 12 they had huge trouble understanding even the simplest concept of that same thing.

If you are a student who hasn't quite grasped the concept of an earlier "thing" in math and then it just keeps piling on new theory & new stuff on top of that constantly, one will end up being buried so deep underneath it all that there's no way out of it without a thorough return to some earlier stuff. Unfortunately, school's curriculums don't have any room for that, so when someone drops out of the math train, it's really hard to get on it again without either a very good teacher who manages to take those students into account or a very dedicated parent who'll sit through a lot of late nights with her/his child going through all the stuff that the child needs to go through to understand it all and making sure he/she understands it all well enough before moving on to the next concept.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Maths, science (at school, biology or physics), history and a language are the most important subjects everyone should try doing. Each subject teaches you very specific skills that are unique, history for example teaches you how to analyse, structure arguments, think critically, etc, it's not just about knowing what happened in the past. Schools across the world are different, some require all of those to be compulsory, some don't. Regardless, everyone should attempt it.

Maths is super useful, ESPECIALLY school mathematics. I studied computer science so I did a lot of discrete maths and the like, but today with programming I use trigonometry the most which is all mostly from school maths, I use a lot of statistics/probability too which I got from university including discrete mathematics. The mathematics I did in school helped me so much, it's like a foundation... if you do not have that foundation and you keep on passing math by the skin of your teeth each time you advance it means the foundation is shaky and that starts at school level. So many people drop out of first year in university because they can't do the math and honestly 1st year isn't that much different from school. If you got an okay foundation from school you should be fine in 1st year.

Maths like algebra, trig, pre-calculus etc must never be removed from schools, you will need it at university if you do engineering/science related degree in particular and you will use some of that math in your actual career. Considering that I come across people that can't even do arithmetic properly (i.e don't understand precedence) and how they can be incompetent when you need them to do something regarded that, we definitely do not need to remove maths from school.

Maths is super useful, I can't even explain how useful. For example say you are doing gameplay programming for a RPG or some game that involves traditional dice rolling and you need the probability of a sum of multiple dice (I think that's the correct phrasing)... how do you get that? (i.e say you want to roll a 12 with 6 dice that has 6 sides each, how many ways are there to roll all 6 dice with 6 sides each to obtain 12? You would use binomial coefficents and shit and form a formula and you'll get a result like "you can roll it 250 ways!" Math will helps you with stuff like that. I googled and found this, I don't have time since I gotta go to work to actually do it but this would solve that: http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52207.html

 

[BarringGaffner]

it's actually shocking they don't teach personal finances, taxes, etc...

At my high school there was a 'life skills' course but it was only for kids that failed certain courses.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

it's actually shocking they don't teach personal finances, taxes, etc...

At my high school there was a 'life skills' course but it was only for kids that failed certain courses.

It's almost as if schools should teach an Economics class... I wonder what it would be called...

 

[Two Words]

I don't think the OP gets how much of the world he takes for granted is powered by math. Even if OP doesn't use math, math has been good to him.

 

[Surface of Me]

It's almost as if schools should teach an Economics class... I wonder what it would be called...

Funny thing is at my High School Macro Economics was a required class, Micro wasnt. It's not like one of those will be vastly more useful than the other for most students.

 

[neogaffer1]

Well yea, but those are all more useful than math :^)

yes, because knowing the economic and political background leading up to the 1979 Iranian Revolution is far more important and relevant than being able to calculate a tip without a calculator or being able to quickly estimate how long it takes for you to go from point a to point b at highway speeds.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I don't think the OP how much of the world he takes for granted is powered by math. Even if OP doesn't use math, math has been good to him.

Most of society takes EVERYTHING for granted.

Just look at religion. One of its main goals is to make everything seem as simple as possible.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

This another "dumb and proud of it" thread?

Yes.

 

[TheDrizzlerJ11]

Math is probably the most useful subject taught in school...

 

[Vicetrailia]

Teaching a personal finance class isn't enough, but it's better than nothing at all.