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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

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dubc35

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Oct 29, 2010
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If you have the NESRGB enabled the NES composite is disabled and the output composite is encoded from RGB inside NESRGB. However if you install a palette switch you can set it up so one of the options is to completely disable NESRGB and have composite from directly from the NES PPU.

Cool, thanks! Seems to be what was on shmups as well.
 

socksfelloff

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May 5, 2015
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You can't play 240p or 480i on them if I'm not mistaken. That's why they're so cheap. Plus, they came with old computers for free a lot of the time. They're not broadcast tools.

I agree they are great quality though and worth picking up for 480p gaming if possible.

Correct. Paired with the super cheap "vga/vga scaler" you can buy on eBay they honestly do a very good job with 15khz content!
 

Mega

Banned
Oct 31, 2007
3,689
1
0
PVM-20M2U or 20M4U is what you should try and find.

Supports S-Video, Composite (w/BNC Adapter), 240p, RGB and YPbPr via BNC as well.

Some of those "M" PVMs are pretty old and potentially on their way out. I would keep an eye out for often newer "L" monitors, avoiding the S-Video-only L1 models. Or JVCs that can be in Like New condition.

You can't play 240p or 480i on them if I'm not mistaken. That's why they're so cheap. Plus, they came with old computers for free a lot of the time. They're not broadcast tools.

I agree they are great quality though and worth picking up for 480p gaming if possible.

Yeah, the highly sought after convenience of an all-in-one solution cannot be understated. Despite the abundance of HD-capable CRT monitors, a pro monitor that can do 240p/480i, 480p/1080i/720p, RGB, Component, etc. goes for a lot because it covers the full spectrum of retro consoles at native res and without any additional boxes in the chain.
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
0
I thought I would post a follow up for anyone else that may be in my position.

I have a SNES, N64, and Gamecube all connected to a single LCD TV. My desire is to use SVideo for all systems. Currently, I am using a combo SVIDEO/Composite multi AV cable for all the systems. I am manually unplugging and plugging it in to which ever console I want to play.

The cable I am using, while having both the composite and SVideo cable is decent. This cable does not cause Checkerboarding on the SNES but with the N64 it does. I recently bought the Gam3Gear Svideo cables from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LE3EAIK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. These cables only have the SVideo connection. These are worse than my combo cable. I tested both cables for continuity with my multi meter. The combo one I have has both ground pins connected while the Gam3Gear only has the one ground pin. The Gam3Gear cable DOES NOT have the composite pin connected at all. Both have the correct Luma and Chroma pins connected for proper SVideo. There are a lot of people claiming that some cables route the SVideo over the Composite pin. This Gam3Gear cable causes Checkerboarding on the SNES and even worse on the N64, while not even having the composite pin connected. Again, the combo cable I have has better results on the SNES and a little less Checkerboard effect on the N64 in comparison.

I have hooked both cables up directly to a TV's SVideo connection and through a HDMI to AV upconverter. Both give me similar results as far as Checkerboarding.

So what does this all mean? My guess is just too thin gauge of wire being used and/or poor shielding.

I also purchased the Radio Shack 4in1 Component,SVideo,Composite system selector with a remote https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006PIPOBQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1. This is a powered device. When using it, both cables give me the Checkerboard in an even worse way. So either this device is causing even more signal loss or there is something else going on.

So now I am back to square one.

I am now on the hunt for quality SVideo cables and system selector. As the ones I bought are going back. I found an eBay listing from a dude in Sweden who hand makes them. I thought what the hell and it should be on its way. Here's the link. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NINTENDO-64-S-VIDEO-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-FULLY-SHIELDED-GROUNDED-PAL-SVIDEO-N64-NEW/172587717894

As far as System Selectors go. I am reading positive things on the Pelican 4in1 or what looks like a rebranded version of the Pelican one from Gamestop. Both of which are unpowered.

Looking for advice, if anyone has any recommendations on which switcher and SVideo cables to buy. Thanks!
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
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Update:

I picked up a RCA VH911R 4in1 splitter. This has composite and SVideo connections and is unpowered. I used my combo SNES cable and the results were a little better. While it did cause just a little checkerboarding on the SNES, it is something I could deal with. It was a lot better than the Radio Shack powered one I tried before. Strange, I would have thought the powered one would have added signal strength.

I believe the problem to be the quality of the SNES, N64, GC SVideo cable.

So I ordered another cable from Amazon along with the hand made cable from eBay. I also picked up the Pelican 5 in 1 splitter on eBay. I'll post a follow up when I get them.
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
0
^ By the time you spend all this cash on s-video you may as well go RGB lol.

Haha! Right! I was considering that. Just getting the damn SCART cable and an HDMI to SCART upconverter and be done. But then, I'd be like, well I am this far into it. Might as well get the Framemeister too. $$$ money money money!

I figured, I am doing the Internet a favor by going through the pains of SVideo hunt. Especially for those that can't go the more expensive route. I have been on countless Forums and Sub Reddits and there doesn't seem to be a sure answer. At least a current one. So hopefully I land on a good combo.

Part of me is saying, should of just stuck with the Pi. Played all that shit and more, looked great with no noticeable lag. In the end GC looks fine with SVideo and N64 looked alright but the damned checkerboarding! I just got tired of manually switching the cable.

I wonder if Amazon will flag me if I keep sending stuff back. O whale!
 

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Aug 27, 2013
6,334
1
0
My rule for s-video is to stick with OEM cables. I'm not sure why they are so expensive on ebay, I bought like 3 of them for ~$1 each in Japan.
 

Mega

Banned
Oct 31, 2007
3,689
1
0
I got the Cinpel S-video cable on Amazon and it works fine (YMMV). But I wanted peace of mind and got an official cable and there was no difference. Also got a RGB-to-Composite/S-video converter box in order to play on a specific CRT without RGB input... again, looks the same as official!

It's true that you should be striving for RGB if you can afford all this S-video stuff.
 

Kawika

Member
Jun 20, 2014
527
20
435
Haha! Right! I was considering that. Just getting the damn SCART cable and an HDMI to SCART upconverter and be done. But then, I'd be like, well I am this far into it. Might as well get the Framemeister too. $$$ money money money!

I figured, I am doing the Internet a favor by going through the pains of SVideo hunt. Especially for those that can't go the more expensive route. I have been on countless Forums and Sub Reddits and there doesn't seem to be a sure answer. At least a current one. So hopefully I land on a good combo.

Part of me is saying, should of just stuck with the Pi. Played all that shit and more, looked great with no noticeable lag. In the end GC looks fine with SVideo and N64 looked alright but the damned checkerboarding! I just got tired of manually switching the cable.

I wonder if Amazon will flag me if I keep sending stuff back. O whale!

The Pi is a great way to experience old games. I really think this should be the way most people get into retro gaming. The VC on Wii got me back into the older stuff which ended in me hunting down all my old games and consoles i left in my parent's attic (and getting multiple CRTs, framemeister and other consoles I no longer had). I am even planning on getting a Pi with RGB out for Mame stuff as I don't want to open that can of worms with arcade board collecting. Emulation feels a little off because we play on these old systems. Most people don't notice how off it is and if you can't I say why bother poking the bear?
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
0
The Pi is a great way to experience old games. I really think this should be the way most people get into retro gaming. The VC on Wii got me back into the older stuff which ended in me hunting down all my old games and consoles i left in my parent's attic (and getting multiple CRTs, framemeister and other consoles I no longer had). I am even planning on getting a Pi with RGB out for Mame stuff as I don't want to open that can of worms with arcade board collecting. Emulation feels a little off because we play on these old systems. Most people don't notice how off it is and if you can't I say why bother poking the bear?

Since I now have a legit SNES I can compare it with my Pi. I will say when running both over HDMI the Pi just looks better, obviously. As far as lag, I can't really tell. I beat Mario World on it and never felt that my timing was off.

Getting the SNES was more of a collecting thing for me. I also picked up the Super Everdrive and the 8bitdo SNES controller with the BT receiver.

I really thought SVideo would be the cheapest route. Get an upconverter, 3 SVideo cables and a cheap switcher. Done! Didn't expect most of the SVideo cables to be shit.

If I did go RGB for the SNES, I need another converter, cables, and a way to switch between the other consoles. My receiver only does HDMI. The HDTV I use has extra connections but I have it mounted on a wall and running cables through the walls is a pain in the ass. And I really like being able to switch everything from receiver. As I have a XBOX 360, PC, and a PS4 all hooked up to it along with the HDMI upconverter.

My next purchase, once I get this Svideo thing taken care of is an Everdrive 64 and some extension cables for the controllers. I'll be set for a long time. I was considering a NES, but with the Pi doing a fine job, it seems like a waste of money.

I think the most fun I have been having is buying and playing all the fantastic PS2 games. Holy wow, there's a ton of great games for that system and they look great on component cables.

I have been collecting Gamecube games as well. Having a blast on that system too.
 

Kawika

Member
Jun 20, 2014
527
20
435
Since I now have a legit SNES I can compare it with my Pi. I will say when running both over HDMI the Pi just looks better, obviously. As far as lag, I can't really tell. I beat Mario World on it and never felt that my timing was off.

Getting the SNES was more of a collecting thing for me. I also picked up the Super Everdrive and the 8bitdo SNES controller with the BT receiver.

I really thought SVideo would be the cheapest route. Get an upconverter, 3 SVideo cables and a cheap switcher. Done! Didn't expect most of the SVideo cables to be shit.

If I did go RGB for the SNES, I need another converter, cables, and a way to switch between the other consoles. My receiver only does HDMI. The HDTV I use has extra connections but I have it mounted on a wall and running cables through the walls is a pain in the ass. And I really like being able to switch everything from receiver. As I have a XBOX 360, PC, and a PS4 all hooked up to it along with the HDMI upconverter.

My next purchase, once I get this Svideo thing taken care of is an Everdrive 64 and some extension cables for the controllers. I'll be set for a long time. I was considering a NES, but with the Pi doing a fine job, it seems like a waste of money.

I think the most fun I have been having is buying and playing all the fantastic PS2 games. Holy wow, there's a ton of great games for that system and they look great on component cables.

I have been collecting Gamecube games as well. Having a blast on that system too.

You know, if your set up is compatible with component cables why not get component cables for your SNES? http://www.hdretrovision.com/snes/
 

Triforce141

Member
Apr 6, 2015
4,606
1
0
A new Newsletter regarding the OSSC came out today:

VideoGamePerfection.com said:
OSSC 1.6 is coming!

We can finally confirm the rumours. OSSC V1.6 is a reality and features some exciting new changes. All boards shipped in the next batch will be the new 1.6 revision that includes...

Audio output as standard - No expansion board will be required for digital audio output. This should save time and cost for those of you who want audio output, without significantly increasing costs for those who don't need it.

Additional analogue audio inputs - The existing 3.5mm audio connector will be usable as AV1 audio pass through (the same as current OSSCs) or as an AV2 audio input. This will be selectable via a miniature switch.

Additional 3.5mm audio input added - For use with AV3. Great for your Dreamcast!

The first V1.6 prototypes are currently being assembled and we expect to have them early next month. Of course, we'll send out another newsletter when they arrive.

The waiting list is also gone, it'll be replaced by a pre-order system.
 

Triforce141

Member
Apr 6, 2015
4,606
1
0
I finally order an OSSC + audio and it takes six weeks to arrive via Royal Mail and instantly 1.6 is announced and it's just what I want.

This damned hobby.... :)

I'm still waiting on my basic OSSC order, tracking said it was on "Origin Post is Preparing Shipment" for over 2 weeks until today, now it's "Processed Through Facility ISC NEW YORK NY(USPS)"
 

dubc35

Member
Oct 29, 2010
4,731
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0
Yep, this is why I tend to wait a lot, glad I didn't order a OSSC yet.

I passed on my opportunity to order one when my number was called this last batch. I think it's a great device and would love it, but I don't need it now so I am going to wait for further revisions (of OSSC and/or potential future FM's). My TV can only do line 2x now as well so I wouldn't be taking full advantage of the OSSC's current capabilities.
 

Voliko

Member
Sep 16, 2013
2,135
2
345
Eh, I still use a retro analog audio setup and have gotten pretty good use out of my OSSC the past couple months so I don't really care.
 

Madao

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Apr 3, 2010
7,876
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panama
www.youtube.com
the setup i have makes audio not an issue for me so i'm still good with a first-release OSSC.

what would make me want to upgrade is if they make a new model that allows processing the regular one can't do (more memory and things like that)
 

theSlacker

Member
Mar 21, 2010
7,869
0
690
I finally order an OSSC + audio and it takes six weeks to arrive via Royal Mail and instantly 1.6 is announced and it's just what I want.

This damned hobby.... :)

Yup, I know that feel. Another fun thing is I've been so busy since it has arrived that it is still sitting in it's box next to my tv.
 

socksfelloff

Member
May 5, 2015
1,762
95
425
Yup I'm right there with you guys. I got my OSSC in the last batch but I had to store all my gaming stuff to stage my house for sale. I kept my SNES because I knew the OSSC was coming and I'd at least want to test it. It works great but I've got no time to use the damn thing!
 

Peltz

Member
Apr 26, 2014
16,507
14
575
The Pi is a great way to experience old games.

 

dhonk

Member
Apr 6, 2013
1,995
0
0
I got the OSSC email but didnt end up ordering one due to tax season taking me by surprise. But, the 1.6 revision seems like the perfect time to jump in, anyone know if I need to sign up again to hear about that? Or would I get included in the next batch automatically?

edit: nvm, preorder system? im in.
 

Galdelico

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Apr 15, 2010
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I finally order an OSSC + audio and it takes six weeks to arrive via Royal Mail and instantly 1.6 is announced and it's just what I want.

This damned hobby.... :)
1.6 surely introduces interesting features and it's a nice step-up for the new buyers, but - thank goodness - it does nothing that I really need for my setup, as for right now/near future.
 

socksfelloff

Member
May 5, 2015
1,762
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425
1.6 surely introduces interesting features and it's a nice step-up for the new buyers, but - thank goodness - it does nothing that I really need for my setup, as for right now/near future.

I'm analog audio for life anyway. I got so sick of fucking with my 7.1 setup I went back to stereo, vinyl and tubes and I couldn't be happier.




Guys... You need to hear the megadrive on a rockin set of towers powered by some tubes.
 

Shin Johnpv

Member
Nov 12, 2004
8,602
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0
42
Gokuentou
I'm finally getting caught up to The Retro Roundtable that went out last week. They start talking about Scart cables and it's pretty interesting. Thought some folks would maybe want to hear it

https://youtu.be/1wryHLmQ8Qs=50m11s I hope the time start works, its kind of a fluid conversation so hard to find a good starting point.

It seems like it doesn't on this video for some reason, so jump to like the 50 minute mark.
 
Oct 25, 2015
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Haha! Right! I was considering that. Just getting the damn SCART cable and an HDMI to SCART upconverter and be done. But then, I'd be like, well I am this far into it. Might as well get the Framemeister too. $$$ money money money!

I figured, I am doing the Internet a favor by going through the pains of SVideo hunt. Especially for those that can't go the more expensive route. I have been on countless Forums and Sub Reddits and there doesn't seem to be a sure answer. At least a current one. So hopefully I land on a good combo.

Part of me is saying, should of just stuck with the Pi. Played all that shit and more, looked great with no noticeable lag. In the end GC looks fine with SVideo and N64 looked alright but the damned checkerboarding! I just got tired of manually switching the cable.

I wonder if Amazon will flag me if I keep sending stuff back. O whale!

Damn I have that s video cable you mentioned coming from amazon today:( should I even bother opening it?
 

Danexmurder

Member
Jan 21, 2008
200
0
940
Frederick
the setup i have makes audio not an issue for me so i'm still good with a first-release OSSC.

what would make me want to upgrade is if they make a new model that allows processing the regular one can't do (more memory and things like that)

I'm right there with you. Waiting to hear about 4k upscalers.
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
0
Damn I have that s video cable you mentioned coming from amazon today:( should I even bother opening it?

Well, for me the cable did not work out. I had it hooked up to a HDMI upconverter. I also have an older LCD TV with SVideo and had the same results. Checkerboard! It was really bad on N64. SNES it was passable, but still there. I didn't notice any on the Gamecube.

As I said earlier, those cables are technically wired correctly. I tested with a multi meter. The composite pin is not connected at all. Just the two audio pins 11,12. Pins 7,8 chroma and luma. And one of the ground pins, I think it was pin 5. I believe it is just poor shielding and thin wire.

I found out a bit more on the hand made SVideo cables from the dude in Sweden. I stumbled on to this site. http://videogamesotros.showsotros.com/video-game-talk-talk/super-nintendo-composite-versus-s-video I contacted the guy on FB and he says they are legit. He said he would provide more screen shots.

I am waiting on mine. It's a long way for post to travel from Sweden to U.S. In the mean time I do have these coming in https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P6R46W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Figured I'd test those out as well. Those Innovation ones are "supposed" to be good. They arrive today.
 
Oct 25, 2015
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Well, for me the cable did not work out. I had it hooked up to a HDMI upconverter. I also have an older LCD TV with SVideo and had the same results. Checkerboard! It was really bad on N64. SNES it was passable, but still there. I didn't notice any on the Gamecube.

As I said earlier, those cables are technically wired correctly. I tested with a multi meter. The composite pin is not connected at all. Just the two audio pins 11,12. Pins 7,8 chroma and luma. And one of the ground pins, I think it was pin 5. I believe it is just poor shielding and thin wire.

I found out a bit more on the hand made SVideo cables from the dude in Sweden. I stumbled on to this site. http://videogamesotros.showsotros.com/video-game-talk-talk/super-nintendo-composite-versus-s-video I contacted the guy on FB and he says they are legit. He said he would provide more screen shots.

I am waiting on mine. It's a long way for post to travel from Sweden to U.S. In the mean time I do have these coming in https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P6R46W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Figured I'd test those out as well. Those Innovation ones are "supposed" to be good. They arrive today.

Just tried them, a slight step up from composite but am hoping for better. Just ordered from the Swedish guy on ebay! Those cables are nice and thick lol. N64 here.
 

KingErich

Banned
May 16, 2014
344
0
0
Got the Innovation brand SVideo cable https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P6R46W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and tested it out. Well, it is better quality than the Gam3Gear. The cable was thicker and it had a much better snappy tight connection to the console. Still getting the checkerboard on the N64! GRR! Is it possible composite just hides it better? Anyone here use the OEM or Monster cable and get the checkerboard problem? I will say it looks great on the SNES and GC though.

I am starting to wonder if it's the N64 itself. If the Swedish cable does this to, I give up. Just gonna live with it until I can get my hands on an ULTRAHDMI mod.
 

dubc35

Member
Oct 29, 2010
4,731
0
0
I'm finally getting caught up to The Retro Roundtable that went out last week. They start talking about Scart cables and it's pretty interesting. Thought some folks would maybe want to hear it

https://youtu.be/1wryHLmQ8Qs=50m11s I hope the time start works, its kind of a fluid conversation so hard to find a good starting point.

It seems like it doesn't on this video for some reason, so jump to like the 50 minute mark.

Good stuff, thanks for posting!

I was like, "I'll watch a couple minutes." ...an hour or so later they're wrapping up the show, ha! ...*ponders whether or not to buy new cables*
 

Shin Johnpv

Member
Nov 12, 2004
8,602
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0
42
Gokuentou
Same pretty much happened to me. On both counts, though I think I'm going to wait for Retrogamingcables.co.uk to get their next update. From the sounds of things on his interview on RetroRGB he's going to be offering affordable everything shielded cables soon across most if not all of his line.
 

dubc35

Member
Oct 29, 2010
4,731
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0
Sounds like a good plan. I'll need to keep my eye out for the updated cables. I'll check out his interview on retroRGB as well.

[edit] Also interesting DisplayPort/HDMI/SCART stuff from Ste, starts 1:12:00
 

Brhoom

Banned
Sep 29, 2014
2,015
0
270
So my TC-21ps75r Panasonic TV from 2002 has a game mode, why?

It's a 480i set, why would a CRT from that time need it?

And in the lower right corner I can see flickering, not the video itself but the brightness. What does that mean?
 

Mega

Banned
Oct 31, 2007
3,689
1
0
Spent a pretty penny on a Saturn with Phoebe. Missus tossed that bulky chest from the bottom shelf of the retro space so I finally had the room for a couple more systems. But still, hope I didn't make a pricey mistake. I spent about the same for a HiDef AV Fami but I knew what I was getting with the NES library. My Saturn experience is only Tomb Raider and Mr Bones, latter of which I don't remember. I would've gotten Saturn long ago but I couldn't justify the insane ebay prices and for games I'm so unfamiliar with.
 

bobble

Member
Jan 3, 2005
460
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Spent a pretty penny on a Saturn with Phoebe. Missus tossed that bulky chest from the bottom shelf of the retro space so I finally had the room for a couple more systems. But still, hope I didn't make a pricey mistake. I spent about the same for a HiDef AV Fami but I knew what I was getting with the NES library. My Saturn experience is only Tomb Raider and Mr Bones, latter of which I don't remember. I would've gotten Saturn long ago but I couldn't justify the insane ebay prices and for games I'm so unfamiliar with.

Oh wow I think you're gonna love it! I didn't get into it till a few years after it's demise and the library is really great and w/ Phoebe you'll get to see it all. I use Pseudo Saturn Kai to play CDRs but can't use a Ram cart + obviously the laser will eventually take it. I'm excited for you, post impressions on what you think in the Saturn thread!!
 

TeaJay

Member
Jun 7, 2014
562
1
0
The North
I had my Saturn modchipped, so I can play backups and still keep the AR cart for backup save storage.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. There's so much 2D greatness on the Saturn.
 

orborborb

Member
May 16, 2013
1,683
23
490
So my TC-21ps75r Panasonic TV from 2002 has a game mode, why?

It's a 480i set, why would a CRT from that time need it?

And in the lower right corner I can see flickering, not the video itself but the brightness. What does that mean?

"Game" mode used to be a bunch of ugly sharpening and contrast and saturation boosts like "Sports" or "Vivid", in fact that's all all it was even on many laggy HDTVs of the late 2000s

Not sure what you mean by flickering, all CRTs will flicker compared to LCDs, and it will be more noticeable in your peripheral vision.
 

Brhoom

Banned
Sep 29, 2014
2,015
0
270
"Game" mode used to be a bunch of ugly sharpening and contrast saturation boosts like "sports" or "vivid" , that's still all it meant even on many laggy HDTVs until relatively recently.

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying that for me.
 

Mega

Banned
Oct 31, 2007
3,689
1
0
Oh wow I think you're gonna love it! I didn't get into it till a few years after it's demise and the library is really great and w/ Phoebe you'll get to see it all. I use Pseudo Saturn Kai to play CDRs but can't use a Ram cart + obviously the laser will eventually take it. I'm excited for you, post impressions on what you think in the Saturn thread!!

I had my Saturn modchipped, so I can play backups and still keep the AR cart for backup save storage.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. There's so much 2D greatness on the Saturn.

That's good to hear. I figured the praise the library gets would mean there are at least a few dozen games I'd want to play. The PS1's library of 2D games pales in comparison to Saturn right? Both in quality and quantity I'm assuming.
 
Nov 20, 2015
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That's good to hear. I figured the praise the library gets would mean there are at least a few dozen games I'd want to play. The PS1's library of 2D games pales in comparison to Saturn right? Both in quality and quantity I'm assuming.

Yes, there are only a few instances where 2D PS games are superior to the Saturn versions. The Saturn is the better 2D system by far.
 

Brhoom

Banned
Sep 29, 2014
2,015
0
270
So I went to buy an NTSC Sega Genesis, they all had Pal, couldn't find an Snes mini as well and got really upset because I had this money for retro stuff and couldn't find anything to buy with.


As I sighed in the store I felt I hit something below me, it was an original Xbox laying on the floor that was just brought in by someone

Now I have an Xbox with no games I want to play on...

Please recommend me some Xbox games.
 
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