So you're saying Ben was confident Luke was a great fighter pilot, but lacked the skill to pilot a space truck.
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I absolutely do. She was actually shown demonstrating some fighting skill. Luke and his buddy just bragged about being able to do it.
Fine. Darth Maul, who was so skilled, he took on Jinn and Kenobi at the same time, was suddenly sliced in half by a Padawan.
Sometimes, even expert fighters get hit by jobbers.
No, it proves she has fighting talent. Once lifted up by the Force, she beat up an injured man.
We're going in circles here, but this is similar to Luke shooting rats one day, to making impossible shots with his eyes closed while flying a malfunctioning ship at breakneck speeds through a narrow trench while being pursued by hostile ships and shot by mounted laser cannons.
The Force turns the ordinary into the exceptional.
I'll say our opinions are equally valid and leave it there.
His physical and mental state play into it. You don't have to like it but they do.
The impossible being possible. It's how this space opera shit works, from ANH till now.
Until we can prove the Force actually exists and then test and measure it, everything we're talking about is pure speculation. So yes.
As has literally everything we've all been talking about these last few pages.
The magical Force makes sense? The same one that let Luke levitate his saber to himself while inside the ice cave on Hoth before ever being trained how to do that makes sense? The same Force that helped impregnate Anakin's virgin mother makes sense?
If you insist...
So he is good enought to be able to kill her easily but not strong enough in the Force to be able to pressure someone without killing them?
Even if that were true, we KNOW he wasn't trying to because he had orders which he tried to carry out when he paused and literally beseeched her to join him.
I mean it's literally in the movie.
Actually, I got it from starwars.com:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/t-16-skyhopper
I don't know if starwars.com is canon or not, but I am going to assume anything on the official website is canon. Maybe it's not?
igordennis
Member
Lol wow. I can see the discussion can only go downhill from here
They didn't have enough money to buy a fast ship...
Luke says:
ALMOST. As in, not enough but close. And, even still that wouldn't be a fast ship it would be a simple basic ship.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
The One and Done;190515257 said:
And tired of chasing his tail. We keep covering the same stuff.
I'm off to bed.
Love you guys/gals! Even the ones I don't agree with.
I think Rylo has already proven that he sometimes has fits of rage. It's quite possible that he flew into a rage at her besting him with the force pull on the saber and wanted her dead, orders be damned. I mean, he was hardly a guy in control of his emotions.
The One and Done
Member
What if I told you that in Episode 8 Ren will wash Rey like a dirty rag?
Please be happy.
The One and Done
Member
Get some rest bro. Make more gifs. They're great.
That is the closest thing to pure speculation I have heard yet. You are rewriting the story to suit your argument, tbf. Sure, it's possible, but there is zero reason to believe that when we have a vastly more plausible explanation, which is that he is a servant of Snoke and was following orders.
Occam's Lightsaber.
excelsiorlef
Member
The One and Done;190516382 said:
Yeah this is the thing it's like reverse Rocky.
The bad guy loses but will win the rematch.
TFA is also about Ren's need to grow too.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Ben himself was a skilled pilot. He clearly needed a smuggler.
BlastProcessing
Member
Why did Vader swing at Luke in Empire? Same reason.
He stops down when he has her completely cornered to ask her to join him. I don't think it's a stretch to say that he was trying to bring her in alive.
As a sidenote, the main thing that is keeping me going in this thread is when people drop things like dissatisfying storytelling. As an old cranky English Major, it galls. Everything isn't for everybody, but the structures in TFA, and in Star Wars in general, are sound. There is a reason that they resonate with a large swath of people.
Myth is powerful in motion. If you freeze it and pick it apart, it looks overly simple, but that is what Myth is.
Nah that's a good find. I'll concede the point. Can't go against the official website. Canon is just a mess these days. Thanks for pointing that out.
You think it's not plausible that he lost control of himself? After we've seen him do it before? And right after he kills his dad? He's the most unstable person we've seen in any of the 7 movies.
Then why not just force push her like he did before? And taking doing so many strikes that would have killed her had she not blocked them seems like a strange way to take her alive. But I dunno, I guess it's possible that he wanted to toy with her? It's an interesting position because almost everyone has been coming up with reasons as to why she bested him - he was hurt, she is strong with the force, etc. You think he was actually in full control of his powers and was so skilled, he could swing for her head, knowing it wouldn't hit her.
I'm sorry, I won't buy the idea that Kylo had the mastery over the lightsaber that Vader had. I think Vader was so precise with a saber could shave my face with it had he wanted.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
I was just getting ready to go to sleep and the thought dawned on me that, as the OP pointed out so long ago, we don't really have a great definition of what a Mary Sue character is.
So, in an effort to switch things up, could a couple folks maybe write a quick synopsis of what they believe a Mary Sue to be, so we're all on the same page when we debate whether or not Rey fits that image? Thanks!
Okay, I'm off to bed for real now.
So, in an effort to switch things up, could a couple folks maybe write a quick synopsis of what they believe a Mary Sue to be, so we're all on the same page when we debate whether or not Rey fits that image? Thanks!
Okay, I'm off to bed for real now.
I think it's been shown that Snoke has control, no matter Kylo's emotions. See the aforementioned killing of his father, which Snoke warned him about not looking back on. Sure, he lost control OF the fight, but to say he was trying in earnest to kill Rey and then just stopped to talk her into joining when he had her pinned down would be a far more ambiguous plot point than everyone's making out Rey's Force abilities to be.
Can we stop with the whole "mary sue" idea? I thought we had great progress in this thread discussing her actions, whether they "made sense", what Kylo's motivations were, etc. I think going back to whether she was a "mary sue" is an enormous step back, especially since the concept itself is idiotic, for one, and there's no settled definition for it.
Watch the fight again, and tell me you think he wasn't trying to kill her. If he was trying to get her alive, then, again, why not force push/choke her? Why take wild swings at her head? There's just no reason for that.
excelsiorlef
Member
Because we know he wants her alive and when he has a chance to take her out he begs for her to join him and be his student.
To be fair, I agree that there were a number of better ways to capture her. No argument there. As for watching the fight, he was using one hand. He was pushing her back. When she jumped up onto the rock he didn't cut her legs off. He was breaking her down. Maybe he wanted her to see the power of the dark side. Who knows... Like you said quite rightly, he was not in his right mind.
Snoke's command seems to me like something that would stick through fury a bit more than logical tactical awareness, but that is also just pure speculation, I'll grant you.
But yeah... He didn't seem like he wanted to kill her. He seemed like he wanted to best her and turn her.
Again, speculation much like I was accusing you of, but it is supported by the narrative revealed to us.
I love how you agree that he was not in the right mind, agree that it made no sense to attack her in that way if he wanted her alive, agree that a force push/choke would have made more sense, but then say my view is just speculation and not supported by the narrative. Alright
excelsiorlef
Member
I love how you agree that he was not in the right mind, agree that it made no sense to attack her in that way if he wanted her alive, agree that a force push/choke would have made more sense, but then say my view is just speculation and not supported by the narrative. Alright
Because he flat out didn't want to kill her. He fkat out begs her to join him at the moment where he could probably easily kill her
Yet he tried to kill her by swinging at her head about 25 times and didn't use other means to constrain her, e.g., a force push. This guy fucking stopped a blaster bolt IN MID AIR yet he couldn't disarm her if he wanted to take her alive?!
I hope my boy Kylo comes back with a vengeance in part 8 and wrecks everyone.
I love how you agree that he was not in the right mind, agree that it made no sense to attack her in that way if he wanted her alive, agree that a force push/choke would have made more sense, but then say my view is just speculation and not supported by the narrative. Alright
That he was not thinking clearly and, due to that, he might have made some mistakes does not mean that he wanted to kill her. It's not that convoluted a thing. I say your view isn't supported by the narrative because Snoke said "bring her to me" and then Kylo tried to bring her to him when he had her beat.
I mean it's right there on the screen, bud. Saying otherwise is to literally ignore the dialogue and instead create your own story. Is this bizzaro world?
Edit: I also hope Kylo wreaks unholy havoc in the next films. He is by far my favorite TFA character.
Fallout-with-swords
Banned
So what happens if we find out in 8 that Rey was trained at the Jedi temple as a child and her knowledge of the force was suppressed until Kylo Ren awakened it with his Jedi mind reading. Add to this the possibility that she is Luke's daughter and therefore a member of the most powerful force family in the galaxy.
I don't think either theory is very far off, Luke not being her father would be more surprising at this point. Would these answers for why she is suddenly so strong in the force change anyone's mind who think she's a Mary Sue?
I honestly didn't have a problem with her skills Luke grew up a farm boy who was a good pilot though never flew in space, and is then able to lead the trench run. Rey was a scavenger, clearly had a much harder life, implied melee combat with her staff, spent her nights reading up on various rebel ships and how they worked.
So I buy her lightsaber fight against Kylo Ren, she is clearly lacking form but with the aid of the force, gets the best of someone who is wounded, by a weapon I might add that the movie notes multiple times is incredibly powerful. I'm sure as others have said, Ren is also caught off guard after losing the force tug of war over the lightsaber, his second force related lose to Rey that day. Simply, Ren knows he's dealing with a strong force user and is scared.
The more egregious thing is Rey's piloting of the Millennium Falcon, I think it happened because the movie called for a really cool Falcon action scene, and it delivered. It's not a great explanation, but we know Rey had spent her time reading about ships which is why she is so knowledgable on how the Falcon works / how to pilot it. We also learn later in the film she's strong in the force. Force users have always equaled good pilots, that's enough for me. The fact she might be Luke's daughter and the descendent to the galaxies' best pilots will make it work even better in my head.
The one thing she has no prior knowledge of is using a blaster and she's show to be pretty bad at it. I honestly think given the difference in upbringings and modern film making and special effects Rey isn't unbelievably skilled compared to Luke.
I don't think either theory is very far off, Luke not being her father would be more surprising at this point. Would these answers for why she is suddenly so strong in the force change anyone's mind who think she's a Mary Sue?
I honestly didn't have a problem with her skills Luke grew up a farm boy who was a good pilot though never flew in space, and is then able to lead the trench run. Rey was a scavenger, clearly had a much harder life, implied melee combat with her staff, spent her nights reading up on various rebel ships and how they worked.
So I buy her lightsaber fight against Kylo Ren, she is clearly lacking form but with the aid of the force, gets the best of someone who is wounded, by a weapon I might add that the movie notes multiple times is incredibly powerful. I'm sure as others have said, Ren is also caught off guard after losing the force tug of war over the lightsaber, his second force related lose to Rey that day. Simply, Ren knows he's dealing with a strong force user and is scared.
The more egregious thing is Rey's piloting of the Millennium Falcon, I think it happened because the movie called for a really cool Falcon action scene, and it delivered. It's not a great explanation, but we know Rey had spent her time reading about ships which is why she is so knowledgable on how the Falcon works / how to pilot it. We also learn later in the film she's strong in the force. Force users have always equaled good pilots, that's enough for me. The fact she might be Luke's daughter and the descendent to the galaxies' best pilots will make it work even better in my head.
The one thing she has no prior knowledge of is using a blaster and she's show to be pretty bad at it. I honestly think given the difference in upbringings and modern film making and special effects Rey isn't unbelievably skilled compared to Luke.
That he was not thinking clearly and, due to that, he might have made some mistakes does not mean that he wanted to kill her. It's not that convoluted a thing. I say your view isn't supported by the narrative because Snoke said "bring her to me" and then Kylo tried to bring her to him when he had her beat.
I mean it's right there on the screen, bud. Saying otherwise is to literally ignore the dialogue and instead create your own story. Is this bizzaro world?
Edit: I also hope Kylo wreaks unholy havoc in the next films. He is by far my favorite TFA character.
Exactly, it's right there on the screen, him trying to kill her. And him ignoring the 200 other ways he could have brought her in alive, choosing a lightsaber to the face as the best way to capture her alive. You are solely focused on Snoke saying "bring her in, fool" and Kylo saying "come on, I'll teach you some shit and we'll be friends." In between those two scenes, there's Kylo trying to kill her over and over and over. I think he attacked her in a rage and eventually came to his senses like he had in other parts of the film.
I think there's definitely going to be something like this that happens, but I do wonder just how much training she could have had before being dumped on Jakku (for whatever reason).
One argument against this take is that having to rely upon events in TFA to be explained in VIII is bad storytelling. I don't agree and think it's good that they are leaving some mystery for the main character, but a lot of folks think that unless everything is known about Rey before she knows how to do anything, that she is a faceless plot device.
excelsiorlef
Member
Which is hilarious, it'd be like saying why didn't they destroy the ring at the end of Fellowship.
Aight. Let's say you're right. Maybe Kylo isn't gifted enough in the force to be able to stop his lighsaber after it bypasses his opponent's guard. Maybe he was trying to kill her. Even if that WERE the case, he drove her back effortlessly. She was doing all she could to parry and retreat.
By your logic, why didn't he just force push her into a tree again and then run her through?
But let's not dwell on that. Let's say that he was trying to murder Rey. The end result is still the same: when he had his chance, his REAL chance, he tried to turn her. Either way, he was either beating her back effortlessly or about to kill her. He is dominant either way until she embraces the Force.
We should have at LEAST known Samwise had that kind of willpower.
SixMachine
Member
Late reply because I wasn't around to respond, but this was to the post about Ren trying to make Rey submit, the fight choreography, and a bunch of gifs. This actually proves my point that Ren effectively sucks at his job at trying capture someone. First of all, trying to make someone submit by constantly making contact with their lightsaber is a dumb plan instead of what was brought up before, attempting force tricks (as was stated before because someone had a saving throw once, does not mean it will happen all the time) or just actually cutting an arm off like Vader did to Luke. Trying to tire out Rey, when Ren is wounded and constantly trying to get adrenaline pumping through his system via punch sounds like a very dumb condition to execute a tactic of attrition. The choreography of the fight has the saber meet saber, instead of targeting the center of mass like a real fight, but that's been something that's in a lot of cinema swordfights, because having a swing close to the body can injure the stunt doubles, so that might be something that doesn't need to be dwelled on. It's not like it was bad as the Phantom of Menace video I posted where a lot of swings actually miss the actors if they stood still.
The Finn part is a different matter, I do think Ren was cocky there, and stopping to punch himself is a very stupid thing to do when you about to win and as a preference I don't like it. I personally like villians who do go for the kill, even though I know plotwise that is harder to write and only happens when they face someone expendable, which Finn and Rey are not in this movie. For example I like Mad Dog in The Raid because he snaps a man's neck after getting him on his knees (even though he could have just shot him earlier, wanting to finish the job via hand to hand combat shows how insane he is). It's not to the level of the villain giving an speech when the villain is about to win with the good guys on their heels, but losing an opportunity for posturing always annoyed me to a degree in movies. But I know this was PG-13, a villain who did quick executions wouldn't fly in Star Wars lol.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Rey is not a mary sue by any means. She has some questionable stuff which can lead towards mary-sue-ness, but in this film she isn't.
Often times people cite Mary Sue as overpowered character, a self-insert, etc. That may be the case, those are just traits. Mary Sue requires context to the story. A lot of people miss that a lot.
For instance, people say Kenshiro from Hokuto no Ken is a mary sue. They think he is so because he defeats bad guys by just tapping on them and some shit. But then they miss out a huge chunk of the plot because of that. His actual, important fights doesn't involve him steamrolling. People say he is "goody two shoes whose morals are always right", yet somehow forget the setting where everything is hell-like, where goodness is scarce. Him being a representative of hope and goodwill is a nice contrast to it, and even then he still has to fight adversaries to reflect how hope is struggling in this setting. Hell, he doesn't even get a good ending.
Where as say, you get Batman. Specifically, poorly-written/crossover Batman. Lots of people say he's not a mary sue because he is "underpowered" i.e. he lacks super powers (which is questionable when you get indefinite amounts of moolah and some super training), so he has "effort" to push. And yet you get this shit like the infamous "prep-time", the bullshit where he has contingencies, and the ability to make smart people dumb around him when he is on the set (like say, any given Flash and Superman).
I feel it is linked towards how people about storytelling guidelines, as I mentioned in an old thread. People are more keen in following and observing the guidelines more than actually watching or reading the product, that they don't know what they're seeing is a mary sue or not.
...you know I feel like making a thread about mary sue perception!
From TV Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue):
Doesn't that describe Rey to a tee?
From her mysterious backstory, forgoing tons of food to save a droid, to Han Solo immediately offering her a job, to the assumed relationship to Luke, to Maz immediately giving her Luke Skywalker's light saber, to demonstrating mastery of a bunch of Jedi powers within a few hours, and being a crazy good pilot, and expert mechanic.
Doesn't that describe Rey to a tee?
From her mysterious backstory, forgoing tons of food to save a droid, to Han Solo immediately offering her a job, to the assumed relationship to Luke, to Maz immediately giving her Luke Skywalker's light saber, to demonstrating mastery of a bunch of Jedi powers within a few hours, and being a crazy good pilot, and expert mechanic.
Could just as easily describe Luke. Mysterious father, kind and responsible kid, Obi-wan the super hermit immediately jumps his bones to train him, is revealed to be father of fan favorite Darth Vader, strong in the force and quick to pick things up. Any checklist of qualities is going to fail eventually when you run into a character that fulfills them, yet somehow doesn't have any of the problems associated with being a mary sue, so it makes you question why have the term at all if it's supposed to denote a problem.
Yea it's kind of hard to compare with Luke since he's had 3 movies to show some flaws. We find out he's impatient and whiny, Yoda doesn't immediately love him or anything, he loses in a fight to Vader, and at the end it's Vader who kills the emperor not him.
Maybe Rey will show some flaws in the next two movies.
According to that definition, flaws are irrelevant. Even if Luke is as has tons of flaws weighing him down, if we're going by that definition, then he fills out all or most of the checkboxes, and is a Mary Sue regardless of anything else.
Which is why these checkbox definitions always fail. They never take into account the justificiations and balances surrounding those aspects of a character.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It is bad storytelling. It's great to leave some mystery, but we're left speculating on such a major part of her character. To me, it's a mystery for the sake of mystery. And, personally, I would hate if she is related to Luke or anyone else we know. It makes the galaxy feel too small.
The Librarian
Banned
Just wanted to chime in by saying that if you start breaking down lightsaber duels to the point of asking "Why didn't X use Y force ability in the duel?", then none of them will make sense.
30yearsofhurt
Member
I don't see flaws as being necessarily relevant.
Personally I feel there is a lot in common between your Mary-Sue archetype and your Hero archetype.
There are two important differences:
1 - Hero saves the day through some common everyday trait like perseverance/tenacity (Rocky), quick thinking (Superman II), loyalty (Aliens), compassion (ep6), faith (ep4) etc. They're like one of us.
Mary-Sue saves the day because they have some special ability no-one else has.
2 - Hero is a normal person who goes on an adventure (odyssey if you will) that changes them.
Mary-Sue is pre-packaged. They can do it all already. They don't need to change to complete their story.
Personally I like that they've gone back to something that resembles real swordfighting with a little more tension rather than the chinese acrobatics inspired bullshit of the prequels.
"Crazy good pilot" = smashes the Falcon into buildings and flies it terribly for the first few minutes (more realistic than Luke acing the X-wing the first time he flies one)
"Immediately offers her a job" = wants her dumped on the nearest planet at first
"Immediately gives her Luke's saber" = after she asks Han who she is...
"mastery of a bunch of jedi powers" = mind controls 1 stormtrooper, force pulls a lightsaber
Expert mechanic is also 100% explained through her background, it would be a plothole if she wasn't a great mechanic.
It's 5 seconds more than audience saw Luke flying anything before the trench run. Being told/boasting someone is good at doing something without actual showing them being good before the story climax is weak story telling IMHO. Even as a kid, Luke and trench run shoot rang hollow.
TFA shows us Rey can fight, is a physical character with endurance, has a very strong connection to the Force, and has become overly attached to her friends giving something to fight for.
It also establishes how bad ass Ren can be when he is fully in control, and then spends the rest of the film taken him down emotionally though tactical loses and killing of his father, restrictive orders that limit use of his powers/attacks against Rey, and being heavily wounded.
The final battle between Rey and Ren is not a straight up battle of skill, which Ren would win. Nor is it and even Force battle. Ren is physical and emotionally hurt and under orders to bring her in alive. The battle is one of endurance. Ren needs to intimidate and tire Rey out so she can't use the Force before he becomes any weaker. He can't continue to Force slam her or hit her with his light saber- Snook would not like her damaged. He could Force hold her like earlier but she like would be able to resist any sleep touch or mind tricks to keep her sedated. And with that wound, he would have to hold her long enough for troops to carry her out- he can't do it himself at the moment. If he was emotional in control of himself before the fight, he would have grabbed storm trooper to assist him.
Rey wins in that moment because she uses all of her skills plus the Force in that fight against Ren who is having the worst day of his life. Her winning completely falls on Ren cause he is not at the top of his game.
The Librarian
Banned
To add to this: With her being a pilot, she tells Finn after they escape that she's flown before but has never left the planet.
The Librarian
Banned
On top of this is the very important line Ren says earlier in the film: The longer it takes to capture her, the more dangerous she becomes.
Hell, given Ben's weakend state, I doubt he would've been able to force hold her like he did earlier in the film. She would've broken out.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The mere fact she exponetially grows with no other explanation than she's awesome is precisely many people's problem with the character no other Star Wars character works like that even in spite of being force saviours.
The Librarian
Banned
It's not because she's awesome; it's because she's extremely powerful with the force.
The movie makes this fact extremely plain.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
In other words she's awesome. You litterally just said it's because of "magic", magic several others characters have but only she in the entire universe that has 6 films and tv series has ever grown so powerful inside such a short period of time.
A wizard certainly did this miracle
The Librarian
Banned
I know! Isn't it a great? A woman has the chance to be the most powerful Jedi in the Star Wars canon.
It's so great. And given the franchise's horrible history with women, it's so satisfying.
Anakin and Luke work almost exactly like that, they're just not put in exactly the same positions in ANH and TPM. The force is a powerful ally, that's always been the case in Star Wars. The title of the movie is "The Force Awakens", it's implied that the force awakens inside Rey and that she can do great things when she lets the force guide her actions. This breaks no rules the universe has set. Obi-Wan tries to get Luke to trust the force in ANH, Yoda is clearly frustrated with Luke in ESB as he refuses to simply trust the force. They're not giving Rey the exact same arc as Luke, maybe she develops her skills a bit faster but that means they don't have to spend the entire next movie on her saying "it's impossible", "I can't do it" and then getting her ass kicked and hand chopped off. They can take her in other directions, differentiate her arc from Luke's even more.
Anakin in TPM is still much, much more of a Mary Sue than Rey is. 8 year old, builds droids, wins pod races, accidentally starts up a spaceship and flies it like a pro and saves the day. Groan.
30yearsofhurt
Member
Apart from that transformation Luke went through in Empire.
Hell he was moving lightsabers before he knew you could move lightsabers. No training. Nada. Then he went toe to toe with Vader without any lightsaber training from Yoda.
Obvious Mary-Sue?
Nope.
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