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[-ImaginaryInsider]

It's not because she's awesome; it's because she's extremely powerful with the force.

The movie makes this fact extremely plain.

The movie largely skips to Rey just being able to do things, rather then foreshadowing, building to it, then paying it off, things just tend to happen.

It's not a Rey specific problem either:

"R2-D2 has been in low power mode since Master Luke vanished."

*cue R2-D2 conveniently reawakening at the end of the movie without any real build up or explanation*

The movie does a great job of showing not telling, but it rushes so much it doesn't do the best job of building to what it shows, things just happen and we are left to hope the sequel retroactively helps suspend our disbelief in some cases.

While things like the flashback do a decent job of signalling Rey has a connection to the force, and is connected to Luke, it does a poor job at setting up for the sheer level of things Rey ends up doing in the second half of the movie.

Another example is the flashback also shows Rey has some fear of Kylo Ren, and her overcoming that is great, but that is setup at the middle of the movie and the speed in which she overcomes it squanders a lot of the tension it could have had, hence we get the "she doesn't struggle" argument.

Like I said, the above aren't Rey specific problems, the script just has some issues in general. Thankfully the actors breath real life into their characters and the sequences are fun. Personally, just the way Rey smiles when Han Solo offers her a job makes me forgive most of the movies flaws.

 

[The Librarian]

The movie largely skips to Rey just being able to do things, rather then foreshadowing, building to it, then paying it off, things just tend to happen.

You mean like Luke and using the force to guide torpedoes to blow up a Death Star?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Another example is the flashback also shows Rey has some fear of Kylo Ren, and her overcoming that is great, but that is setup at the middle of the movie and the speed in which she overcomes it squanders a lot of the tension it could have had, hence we get the "she doesn't struggle" argument.

More than half of the duel is her trying to get away.

 

[commish]

You mean like Luke and using the force to guide torpedoes to blow up a Death Star?

In all fairness, Luke thought he could make the shot without the Force. Said he had done similar shots before.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

You mean like Luke and using the force to guide torpedoes to blow up a Death Star?

Luke did have a line foreshadowing it. It might have been weak, but it was better than nothing

 

[excelsiorlef]

Luke did have a line foreshadowing it. It might have been weak, but it was better than nothing

And Rey said she was a pilot and was shown as capable with a saber like weapon.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

You mean like Luke and using the force to guide torpedoes to blow up a Death Star?

Yes exactly like that...especially after all the various setup and foreshadowing of Luke being able to fly, Luke being the son of a Jedi Knight, all Obi-Wan's force pep talks, the light saber/drone training sequence, and then Obi-Wan's force ghost literally guiding Luke to finally let go and use the Force, which he successfully does (briefly) at the climax of the movie.

Since you drew a direct comparison to Luke, I don't think it's unreasonable to argue Rey really doesn't get anywhere near that level of subtle buildup (or the time to buildup) that Luke does. The Rey character is great, but her progression from the interrogation scene until the lightsaber fight feels a bit rushed, and I believe most of that could have been setup earlier.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Yes exactly like that...especially after all the various setup and foreshadowing of Luke being able to fly, Luke being the son of a Jedi Knight, all Obi-Wan's force pep talks, the light saber/drone training sequence, and then Obi-Wan's force ghost literally guiding Luke to finally let go and use the Force, which he successfully does (briefly) at the climax of the movie.

Since you drew a direct comparison to Luke, I don't think it's unreasonable to argue Rey really doesn't get anywhere near that level of subtle buildup (or the time to buildup) that Luke does. The Rey character is great, but her progression from the interrogation scene until the lightsaber fight feels a bit rushed, and I believe most of that could have been setup earlier.

But that could tie in to how the character will develop. She's been doing all this learning on her own, which might turn out to lead her in a bad spot. People assume Luke will train her, but we don't know.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

More than half of the duel is her trying to get away.

And that's fine, but where that fear of Kylo Ren is introduced in movie, effectively at the middle, cut down on the amount of tension that could build and was anticlimactic for some...and I think that's where some of the "Mary Sue/she isn't struggling enough" complaints come from.

It's my subjective opinion, but what I'm pointing to is a structural deficiency of the script, not a negative judgement on the Rey character. I feel most of the Rey complaints are largely first movie problems/rushed script, and that we honestly won't have a Rey/Mary Sue thread like this for Episode 8.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

It's my subjective opinion, but what I'm pointing to is a structural deficiency of the script, not a negative judgement on the Rey character. I feel most of the Rey complaints are largely first movie problems/rushed script, and that we honestly won't have a Rey/Mary Sue thread like this for Episode 8.

I would agree with you about the structural deficiency of the script, except for the fact that this is the first part of a trilogy. I know some people just view that as an excuse, but it's the truth. Any normal movie wouldn't end with a character flashback that leads nowhere, a main hero left comatose and possibly paralyzed, and have the final few moments be a silent image of the hero holding out a sword to someone. It's meant to be viewed as part of a whole.

Like a jigsaw puzzle, you can't fairly assess the whole when it's only partway complete.

So I'm reserving judgement on the character, her powers, her motivations, and everything else about her until we go from this:

To this:

 

[BlastProcessing]

In all fairness, Luke thought he could make the shot without the Force. Said he had done similar shots before.

The implication is that he was using the Force to bullseye Womp Rats as well.

Pilot dude: "That shot is impossible"

Luke: "I make impossible shots all the time! Impossible shots are super easy."

Luke doesn't even understand that what he has been doing is exceptional.

 

[googleplex]

Plop putting in work in this thread. I forgot how much fun Star Wars arguments could be.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You mean like Luke and using the force to guide torpedoes to blow up a Death Star?

The implication is that he was using the Force to bullseye Womp Rats as well.

Pilot dude: "That shot is impossible"

Luke: "I make impossible shots all the time! Impossible shots are super easy."

Luke doesn't even understand that what he has been doing is exceptional.

I don't think it's that. I think that guy was just spouting hyperbole. People react to the size of the port or whatever, but it's in the realm of possibility. So instead of using the computer to make the shot, Like believes in himself and the Force to make the shot.

I would agree with you about the structural deficiency of the script, except for the fact that this is the first part of a trilogy. I know some people just view that as an excuse, but it's the truth. Any normal movie wouldn't end with a character flashback that leads nowhere, a main hero left comatose and possibly paralyzed, and have the final few moments be a silent image of the hero holding out a sword to someone. It's meant to be viewed as part of a whole.

Like a jigsaw puzzle, you can't fairly assess the whole when it's only partway complete.

So I'm reserving judgement on the character, her powers, her motivations, and everything else about her until we go from

We can only judge her character on what we've seen. If you are reserving judgment on her character until the next movie, then that is not a good character.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

We can only judge her character on what we've seen. If you are reserving judgment on her character until the next movie, then that is not a good character.

If we're only judging based on the first parts of planned trilogies, Samwise Gamgee is a coward, Frodo never made it to Mount Doom, and Anakin is a child who never becomes Darth Vader (and before you take exception to this one, I realize we already knew he'd become Vader, but that's only because we saw the endpoint first. We don't have that luxury with this new trilogy. So complaining about Rey based on what we know now is like complaining about Darth Vader based solely on shitty little Anakin).

You're judging a picture that hasn't developed yet. Part one isn't the full story.

 

[heliosRAzi]

If we're only judging based on the first parts of planned trilogies, Samwise Gamgee is a coward, Frodo never made it to Mount Doom, and Anakin is a child who never becomes Darth Vader (and before you take exception to this one, I realize we already knew he'd become Vader, but that's only because we saw the endpoint first. We don't have that luxury with this new trilogy. So complaining about Rey based on what we know now is like complaining about Darth Vader based solely on shitty little Anakin).

You're judging a picture that hasn't developed yet. Part one isn't the full story.

Part one should be it's own story. Part 2 should be another one. Part 3 should be a new one. They'll have their connections, of course.

In Mad Max Fury Road, we know enough about the characters without having to speculate about how they are able to do the things they are able to do and that's a planned trilogy. In Jurassic World, Crisp Rat is explained in that movie and that's a planned trilogy.

Now, I haven't seen LOTR in years and I've never read the books, so I could be talking a lot of bullshit, but Samwise being a coward in the first movie is alright to me. After the first movie, he's a coward. IT makes sense to call him a coward. But then the other two movies fleshes him out some more. That's perfectly fine, as well. But up until those movies came out, it's acceptable to call Samwise a coward. What would not be acceptable is having Samwise pull out some elven bullshit towards the end of the movie and we'd be left speculating about his parentage or whatever.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Part one should be it's own story. Part 2 should be another one. Part 3 should be a new one. They'll have their connections, of course.

In Mad Max Fury Road, we know enough about the characters without having to speculate about how they are able to do the things they are able to do and that's a planned trilogy. In Jurassic World, Crisp Rat is explained in that movie and that's a planned trilogy.

Now, I haven't seen LOTR in years and I've never read the books, so I could be talking a lot of bullshit, but Samwise being a coward in the first movie is alright to me. After the first movie, he's a coward. IT makes sense to call him a coward. But then the other two movies fleshes him out some more. That's perfectly fine, as well. But up until those movies came out, it's acceptable to call Samwise a coward. What would not be acceptable is having Samwise pull out some elven bullshit towards the end of the movie and we'd be left speculating about his parentage or whatever.

LOTR is an interesting case. It was written as one book, but broken up by the publishers into three. So each part is an obviously incomplete part of the whole. Didn't stop it from being the basis of an entire genre.

I would fundamentally disagree with your idea that each part of a series must 100% stand on it's own. That can work for certain stories and can be limiting to other, equally valid, styles of storytelling.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I would fundamentally disagree with your idea that each part of a series must 100% stand on it's own. That can work for certain stories and can be limiting to other, equally valid, styles of storytelling.

The best trilogies, or even multi-part books like Game of Thrones or the Quantum Thief books each have their own self-contained stories within them while telling an overarching story. Take Jon Snow, if he started riding a dragon at the end of the first book without the necessary buildup, it'd feel out of nowhere. Or if Tyrion could suddenly turn people into wights without explanation.

If you like your movies to be like that, I'm not stopping you. To each his or her own.

 

[Speely]

I feel like this has sort of boiled down to some people being ok with character development being spread across a trilogy and some who think certain aspects of character development should be addressed when characters are introduced to us.

Both valid viewpoints and really just a matter of taste and/or opinions on structure.

I think they gave us enough of Rey to establish some key elements but left some others very vague, and I am fine with that.

The issue is compounded by the Force, obviously. Such a powerful yet imperfectly-defined plot device is going to reek of "because magic," but that's just Star Wars. It's a fantasy series after all. Lots of folks seem to watch them as sci-fi films.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I feel like this has sort of boiled down to some people being ok with character development being spread across a trilogy and some who think certain aspects of character development should be addressed when characters are introduced to us.

Exactly. I prefer the latter. You guys prefer the former.

 

[BlastProcessing]

The best trilogies, or even multi-part books like Game of Thrones or the Quantum Thief books each have their own self-contained stories within them while telling an overarching story. Take Jon Snow, if he started riding a dragon at the end of the first book without the necessary buildup, it'd feel out of nowhere. Or if Tyrion could suddenly turn people into wights without explanation.

If you like your movies to be like that, I'm not stopping you. To each his or her own.

The bolded is my point. I just don't like people applying universal rules to narratives.

Put it this way. One of the original inspirations for Star Wars are the old serials from the 30's. Serializing is in it's DNA.

Exactly. I prefer the latter. You guys prefer the former.

Yup. But the former doesn't make Rey a Mary Sue.

 

[Speely]

Exactly. I prefer the latter. You guys prefer the former.

I wouldn't say I "prefer" the former. I am just ok with either way of storytelling as long as the storytelling engages me. But I can fully understand why one way could be undesirable for some folks, especially for a main character.

 

[heliosRAzi]

The bolded is my point. I just don't like people applying universal rules to narratives.

Put it this way. One of the original inspirations for Star Wars are the old serials from the 30's. Serializing is in it's DNA.

Yup. But the former doesn't make Rey a Mary Sue.

They're really not universal rules. They're more like best practices. If you follow them, then you'll have something mildly entertaining. If you provide a twist on it, then it can be very entertaining. But if you disregard them, then there is a good chance stuff will break. I think Rey breaks because they're probably off-loading her Force skills onto another movie. Or she could just be super talented at the Force which means her development came to fast for me.

I wouldn't say I "prefer" the former. I am just ok with either way of storytelling as long as the storytelling engages me. But I can fully understand why one way could be undesirable for some folks, especially for a main character.

The most important thing a story must do is engage the viewer/reader. If you can break all of the rules and conventions and keep people invested in the story, then by all means do it.

 

[Henkka]

Mary Sue or not, her fixing the Millenium Falcon by pulling a random board out of wall before Han or Chewie is a really dumb scene.

Here's how I would've done it: The Falcon is malfunctioning. Rey thinks she knows what's wrong, and scrambles to fix it. She comes up with a complicated method, and then Han fixes the issue by pulling out a random board or something. Then you would get a line like "You're pretty good kid, but still got lots to learn". Don't make Han look like a doofus just to prop up the new hero who's already pretty awesome.

 

[Kinitari]

I think there's some things that need to be highlighted though, when talking about character growth over a series.

Some people are saying "I didn't like some aspects of Rey's story in VIII". I am mildly in this camp, although I think overall I really like her, what I don't like is how even her character arc was, compared to Finn/Ben (but not compared to Poe - he had an even worse character arc, but he might just not be important enough).

So the idea is that because this movie is part of a trilogy, it's important to not make a grand judgement on Rey as a character based off this one movie - but I don't think that makes sense. In any series, people make judgements of characters at given breaks in the series - this happens with ongoing or completed series. For completed series you'll often say stuff like "I think Hermione was really immature in an interesting way in the first few books, and her character development was shallow, but by book 4 the series really fleshed her out and I started to like her as a person".

In this case, the "it's a series" defense is used to sort of handwave away the lack of character development in Rey, because it's assumed it will happen in the next movies. It's not a bad assumption to make, but I don't think it's weird at all to judge a character by his/her current status.

As it is, when I compare Finn's story or Ben's story to Rey's story, Finn had so many up's and downs, had a few character challenges, had drastically different dynamics with different characters and really fucked up more than he succeeded. To me, that's a really interesting character, and honestly a lot of that is because this is going to be a trilogy, and my hope is by the end of the third movie, after more growth, Finn is some badass cyborg jedi, who becomes the most laid back of them all. I can do something similar for Ben too, see the opportunities for change and growth for the character - heck just in this movie, he was this cool badass in the beginning, and slowly the veneer fades and he becomes almost this petulant child at the end, with father issues and this forced machismo (I loved him slamming his wound trying to embrace the pain, but not doing that great of a job).

When I 'picture' Rey's role in this series, I honestly sort of just picture her exactly like she is now, just in jedi robes.

 

[Speely]

It's not a Rey specific problem either:

"R2-D2 has been in low power mode since Master Luke vanished."

*cue R2-D2 conveniently reawakening at the end of the movie without any real build up or explanation*

Just wanted to address this since it slipped past me in the maelstrom.

R2D2 went into a low power mode when Luke left, right enough. His reactivation was not a random thing, but a clue: Who was in the general area for the first time ever that might cause R2 to awaken? Reyactivation perhaps?

Just because it wasn't explained doesn't mean it was random. The clues are there, even if they are red herrings (which this one might be.) There WAS a build-up. It was the explanation that Luke's absence caused the shut-down. The reactivation was meant to happen when it did, imo.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I wonder when R2D2 was fit with midochlorian sensors

 

[heliosRAzi]

I think there's some things that need to be highlighted though, when talking about character growth over a series.

Some people are saying "I didn't like some aspects of Rey's story in VIII". I am mildly in this camp, although I think overall I really like her, what I don't like is how even her character arc was, compared to Finn/Ben (but not compared to Poe - he had an even worse character arc, but he might just not be important enough).

So the idea that because this movie is a trilogy, it's important to not make a grand judgement on Rey as a character based off this one movie - but I don't think that makes sense. In any series, people make judgements of characters at given breaks in the series - this happens with ongoing or completed series. For completed series you'll often say stuff like "I think Hermione was really immature in an interesting way in the first few books, and her character development was shallow, but by book 4 the series really fleshed her out and I started to like her as a person".

In this case, the "it's a series" defense is used to sort of handwave away the lack of character development in Rey, because it's assumed it will happen in the next movies. It's not a bad assumption to make, but I don't think it's weird at all to judge a character by his/her current status.

As it is, when I compare Finn's story or Ben's story to Rey's story, Finn had so many up's and downs, had a few character challenges, had drastically different dynamics with different characters and really fucked up more than he succeeded. To me, that's a really interesting character, and honestly a lot of that is because this is going to be a trilogy, and my hope is by the end of the third movie, after more growth, Finn is some badass cyborg jedi, who becomes the most laid back of them all. I can do something similar for Ben too, see the opportunities for change and growth for the character - heck just in this movie, he was this cool badass in the beginning, and slowly the veneer fades and he becomes almost this petulant child at the end, with father issues and this forced machismo (I loved him slamming his wound trying to embrace the pain, but not doing that great of a job).

When I 'picture' Rey's role in this series, I honestly sort of just picture her exactly like she is now, just in jedi robes.

This. All of this. I don't like making the assumption because they can just as well fuck it up.

And, implicitly, you know that the character is thin and hope that they deliver more meat the next time when you should've been feasting now.

 

[Principate]

Just wanted to address this since it slipped past me in the maelstrom.

R2D2 went into a low power mode when Luke left, right enough. His reactivation was not a random thing, but a clue: Who was in the general area for the first time ever that might cause R2 to awaken? Reyactivation perhaps?

Just because it wasn't explained doesn't mean it was random. The clues are there, even if they are red herrings (which this one might be.) There WAS a build-up. It was the explanation that Luke's absence caused the shut-down. The reactivation was meant to happen when it did, imo.

It is way, way too convient even with a "grand design" for what specific reason would R2D2 awaken after all the major events of the film occured, why not straight away or during. I mean it's not as if these convient plot devices are rare (especially within this film), but it seems like your going out of your way to try to explain a convient plot device the type that's common on hollywood block busters and the type that Abrams has used before.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And Rey said she was a pilot and was shown as capable with a saber like weapon.

Ehhhhh I wouldn't say that. A melee weapon would feel completely different than a lightsaber, which has no weight (beyond the handle [edit: in the lightsaber duel thread, someone said Lucas meant for the handles to be super-heavy which is why they're often used two-handed -- that is odd, but all the weight being in the handle would make things even more bizarre for a melee fighter, who would be used to have the weight distributed across the whole physical weapon]). Every technique and feel of the weapon would be completely different. She'd have basics in footwork (which she didn't showcase much) but that's about it for combat analogies.

Of course, you could just handwave it with "oh she used the Force to guide her", I guess.

 

[Speely]

It is way, way too convient even with a "grand design" for what specific reason would R2D2 awaken after all the major events of the film occured, why not straight away or during. I mean it's not as if these convient plot devices are rare (especially within this film), but it seems like your going out of your way to try to explain a convient plot device the type that's common on hollywood block busters and the type that Abrams has used before.

Fair enough. It might very well be a convenient plot device. That's not how it came across to me, though. I immediately thought "oh shit it's because Rey is nearby!" But that's just me. You are quite right that movies like this use convenient plot devices and that it's possible this is one of them. It just seems unlikely to me given the timing.

 

[commish]

Of course, you could just handwave it with "oh she used the Force to guide her", I guess.

That seems to be the answer for any question anyone has about her entire character.

 

[heliosRAzi]

That seems to be the answer for any question anyone has about her entire character.

Which irks me because it robs her of characterization and agency.

 

[Stinkles]

The movie largely skips to Rey just being able to do things, rather then foreshadowing, building to it, then paying it off, things just tend to happen.

It's not a Rey specific problem either:

"R2-D2 has been in low power mode since Master Luke vanished."

*cue R2-D2 conveniently reawakening at the end of the movie without any real build up or explanation*

The movie does a great job of showing not telling, but it rushes so much it doesn't do the best job of building to what it shows, things just happen and we are left to hope the sequel retroactively helps suspend our disbelief in some cases.

While things like the flashback do a decent job of signalling Rey has a connection to the force, and is connected to Luke, it does a poor job at setting up for the sheer level of things Rey ends up doing in the second half of the movie.

Another example is the flashback also shows Rey has some fear of Kylo Ren, and her overcoming that is great, but that is setup at the middle of the movie and the speed in which she overcomes it squanders a lot of the tension it could have had, hence we get the "she doesn't struggle" argument.

Like I said, the above aren't Rey specific problems, the script just has some issues in general. Thankfully the actors breath real life into their characters and the sequences are fun. Personally, just the way Rey smiles when Han Solo offers her a job makes me forgive most of the movies flaws.

Remember R2 is an astronavigation droid. I assumed he was crunching numbers the whole time. He just got the final piece of data.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Remember R2 is an astronavigation droid. I assumed he was crunching numbers the whole time. He just got the final piece of data.

lol, you can't be serious

 

[heliosRAzi]

Remember R2 is an astronavigation droid. I assumed he was crunching numbers the whole time. He just got the final piece of data.

I don't think that was the case. \/\/\/Guess I was remembering the movie wrong. I thought BB-8 went up to R2 earlier and nothing happened and that's when 3PO told it that R2 was in low-power mode.

 

[Kinitari]

Remember R2 is an astronavigation droid. I assumed he was crunching numbers the whole time. He just got the final piece of data.

The novelization and some things that abrans said makes it out that it's just that R2D2 was activated by discussion of the map, how they had the piece but needed the rest.

In the novel, Rey says something about the map and how the empire has the rest, r2 wakes up and beeps and c3po is like "hes saying that if you need the rest of the map, he might be of some assistance" or whatever the fuck c3po sounds like.

Abrams was talking after a screening and said:

“BB-8 comes up and says something to him, which is basically, ‘I’ve got this piece of a map, do you happen to have the rest?’” Abrams said. “The idea was, R2 who has been all over the galaxy, is still in his coma, but he hears this. And it triggers something that would ultimately wake him up.”

 

[Cow Mengde]

I'm on the side of Rey being too good. I really like her as well, but I definitely see her as the most problematic character in the story.

People say it should be fleshed out in the trilogy, but what if the movie did actually bomb? There wouldn't be sequels. I know it's unlikely, but just imagine if it did. Then how are you going to flesh out the character? A New Hope was suppose to be only 1 movie.

Actually, I don't believe A New Hope was truly meant to be a stand alone. They let Darth Vader live. I felt like they hope the movie would do well enough that they could make more. Otherwise letting Vader get away would be pointless.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Abrams was talking after a screening and said:

*snorts* Yeah, that sounds like the kind of convenient, paper-thin plot contrivance JJ Abrams specializes in all right.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Part one should be it's own story. Part 2 should be another one. Part 3 should be a new one. They'll have their connections, of course.

In Mad Max Fury Road, we know enough about the characters without having to speculate about how they are able to do the things they are able to do and that's a planned trilogy. In Jurassic World, Crisp Rat is explained in that movie and that's a planned trilogy.

I think we may be misunderstanding each other about what a "planned trilogy" is.

I generally divide trilogies into four categories:

***Disconnected trilogies (for example, the first three Indiana Jones and Die Hard movies) - I won't really be discussing these here, but it's where the three movies have very little to do with each other besides some characters and settings, weren't planned as a trilogy, and the viewer can survive by watching any of the three in any order.

***Hopeful trilogies - This is when the makers of the first movie have bigger plans for the story, but no clue if they'll ever get to reveal those plans to the public. One major hallmark of "hopeful trilogies" is that part one makes sense on its own, while parts two and three need the other movies to make any damn sense.

The original Star Wars trilogy is one of the best (and one of the few) examples of this. Although there are a couple of dangling threads that could be picked up later if possible, the movie is a self-contained story. Meanwhile, its sequels need each other movie in the series to make sense.

The new Mad Max movies are part of a "hopeful trilogy," in that it was conceived as three parts, but part one was not a guaranteed success, so it's a self-contained story (although Mad Max films are traditionally self-contained).

***There are then "unplanned trilogies," like Back to the Future, Pirates of the Caribbean, and The Matrix. A hallmark of these includes a satisfying and complete first story, followed by sequels that either undo some of what the first movie did (because the writer was stuck in a corner by the story of the first movie) or build shakily on the skeleton that the first film laid down. Another hallmark is the writing and filming of parts two and three being done concurrently, following the unexpected success of the first movie.

Just as with the "hopeful trilogy," the "unplanned trilogy" has a first part that stands on its own--as far as story and characters go--followed by two parts that need the other films in the series to make sense.

***Finally, there are "planned trilogies," such as this new Star Wars series, the LOTR series, and the Star Wars prequel trilogy. In "planned trilogies," the story is planned out ahead of time, and each film needs the others in the series to make sense, because each movie in the series ends on a cliffhanger of some type. Sometimes this backfires (The Golden Compass film, for one), but typically these things are done because the studio is convinced they have a winner on their hands with a massive story that needs three movies to tell.

So, with Episode VII, you have the first part of a planned trilogy. It needs the following two movies to make complete sense.

To prove my point, let's try a mental exercise:

Take the first part of a planned trilogy (let's stay in the family and say Episode I). Now pretend you show it to somebody who has never heard of Star Wars and knows nothing about anything connected to the story (Vader, the Force, Luke Skywalker, etc). Will they understand what the fuck is going on?

Sure, they'll understand there's some boy who has Midichlorians in him blew up a ship somehow, and that he left his mom behind to live with some old guy for some reason, but none of that will make sense unless you either know about the rest of the series or see the following two movies. The character is barely fleshed out in any individual movie. The series is required for any of it to make complete sense.

Or let's look at part one of LOTR. If the person in question had no idea that this was a trilogy of movies and only saw any one part of the set, he or she would be lost:

• If they only see part one, it ends with the group divided and nowhere near their final destination. Anyone seeing this movie without knowledge of it being part of a planned trilogy would feel absolutely ripped off.
• If they only see part two or part three (again, without knowledge that the other parts exist), the characters are an unknown group of people fighting to go somewhere for some reason to destroy a ring they know nothing about.

Each piece of a "planned trilogy" needs the other parts to make sense. Which is why I think it's wisest to just let the story wrap before judging it.

But to each their own, I suppose.

 

[commish]

Remember R2 is an astronavigation droid. I assumed he was crunching numbers the whole time. He just got the final piece of data.

My favorite explanation so far.

 

[Stinkles]

lol, you can't be serious

wot do I look bovvered?

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I would agree with you about the structural deficiency of the script, except for the fact that this is the first part of a trilogy. I know some people just view that as an excuse, but it's the truth. Any normal movie wouldn't end with a character flashback that leads nowhere, a main hero left comatose and possibly paralyzed, and have the final few moments be a silent image of the hero holding out a sword to someone. It's meant to be viewed as part of a whole.

To compare it to yet another franchise, nobody left the Matrix saying "They will explain how Neo is so much more powerful than Trinity in the sequel". It was conveyed in the first movie that Neo was "The One", it was a thread that started early, built over the course of the movie, which was paid off to satisfaction at the end.

The exact details of "The One" weren't entirely spelled out, so plenty of threads were left for the sequel to expand on (but instead it horribly squandered and killed that franchise). There is no "Neo is a Mary Sue" movement because the things Neo does feel earned, are conveyed well enough to the audience that few seem to question it, and it does all that within the first movie.

The online reaction/confusion/complaints over Rey's force use/abilities (and also Kylo Ren's) points to the movie not conveying/setting up something it should have. That's not a sequels job to fix, it was the Force Awakens job to suspend that disbelief successfully within it's own narrative and runtime.

I'm sure the sequel will fix things, but that doesn't diminish the fact some flaws exist and that they bother some people.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm on the side of Rey being too good. I really like her as well, but I definitely see her as the most problematic character in the story.

People say it should be fleshed out in the trilogy, but what if the movie did actually bomb? There wouldn't be sequels. I know it's unlikely, but just imagine if it did. Then how are you going to flesh out the character? A New Hope was suppose to be only 1 movie.

Actually, I don't believe A New Hope was truly meant to be a stand alone. They let Darth Vader live. I felt like they hope the movie would do well enough that they could make more. Otherwise letting Vader get away would be pointless.

There was no possible way that this movie was gonna bomb so that hypothetical doesn't really have any relevance. It's more than just unlikely, it's was quite literally impossible.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Trilogy stuff

I don't see the difference between "planned" and "hopeful." You'll be amazed at how many movies planned to have sequels, but nothing comes of it. Super Mario Bros, Green Lantern, Godzilla 1998, Mac and Me, Eragon, and the Last Airbender to name some and they wrap up stuff nicely in regards to characters (except Airbender).

I can't judge stuff on what might happen in the story. I can only do it with what has been presented to us. When those movies come out, then we can add those into the mix. But until then, TFA is all we got.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

To compare it to yet another franchise, nobody left the Matrix saying "They will explain how Neo is so much more powerful than Trinity in the sequel". It was conveyed in the first movie that Neo was "The One", it was a thread that started early, built over the course of the movie, which was paid off to satisfaction at the end.

The exact details of "The One" weren't entirely spelled out, so plenty of threads were left for the sequel to expand on (but instead it horribly squandered and killed that franchise). There is no "Neo is a Mary Sue" movement because the things Neo does feel earned, are conveyed well enough to the audience that few seem to question it, and it does all that within the first movie.

The online reaction/confusion/complaints over Rey's force use/abilities (and also Kylo Ren's) points to the movie not conveying/setting up something it should have. That's not a sequels job to fix, it was the Force Awakens job to suspend that disbelief successfully within it's own narrative and runtime.

I'm sure the sequel will fix it, but that doesn't diminish the fact some flaws exist and that they bother some people.

Except that The Matrix was not originally conceived as a trilogy. They called Neo "The One" as a built in deus ex machina precisely because they needed a quick and dirty way to explain how he got so powerful so fast without the audience saying complaining he had no real arc. Downloading Kung Fu isn't "earning" his powers--it's the exact opposite.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Except that The Matrix was not originally conceived as a trilogy. They called Neo "The One" as a built in deus ex machina precisely because they needed a quick and dirty way to explain how he got so powerful so fast without the audience saying complaining he had no real arc. Downloading Kung Fu isn't "earning" his powers--it's the exact opposite.

Downloading Kung Fu wasn't the power he was supposed to earn. It was being able to manipulate the Matrix on a level no one else could achieve, which the movie conveyed pretty well.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I don't see the difference between "planned" and "hopeful." You'll be amazed at how many movies planned to have sequels, but nothing comes of it. Super Mario Bros, Green Lantern, Godzilla 1998, Mac and Me, Eragon, and the Last Airbender to name some and they wrap up stuff nicely in regards to characters (except Airbender).

I can't judge stuff on what might happen in the story. I can only do it with what has been presented to us. When those movies come out, then we can add those into the mix. But until then, TFA is all we got.

It's easy. "Planned" means they've got the funding and the story and everything is just a matter of putting it to film. Each piece requires the other pieces in order to make sense, as each is a piece of the larger whole.

"Hopeful" is "we don't know if we can get this first one to succeed, so it's a self-contained story that makes sense on its own. If it makes money, the next two will be much more connected and will need each other in a way that the first film doesn't."

TFA is part of a whole.

Downloading Kung Fu wasn't his powers. Did you watch it?

It was an example of how he never really "earned" what he got. If they hadn't included the downloading trope, he'd never have learned how to fight the Smiths and the movie never would have advanced.

 

[heliosRAzi]

It's easy. "Planned" means they've got the funding and the story and everything is just a matter of putting it to film. Each piece requires the other pieces in order to make sense, as each is a piece of the larger whole.

"Hopeful" is "we don't know if we can get this first one to succeed, so it's a self-contained story that makes sense on its own. If it makes money, the next two will be much more connected and will need each other in a way that the first film doesn't."

TFA is part of a whole.

No, I get that. But a lot of movies had planned sequels, greenlit and everything, but then go kaput once they box office returns came in. In those movies, they had contained stories that hinted at something more at the end.

Hell, even the Marvel movies don't do this. Each one had its own story that serviced the overall story.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

No, I get that. But a lot of movies had planned sequels, greenlit and everything, but then go kaput once they box office returns came in. In those movies, they had contained stories that hinted at something more at the end.

Hell, even the Marvel movies don't do this. Each one had its own story that serviced the overall story.

Marvel movies aren't part of a planned trilogy. They're part of a whole universe, where each movie is connected but self-contained. It's something totally new in movies until very recently. Star Wars Anthologies are the closest analogue I can think of for that, but we haven't seen what those are all going to be yet.

As far as planned sequels that fall apart, the only one that sticks out to me is The Golden Compass, and that ended on a cliffhanger.

Others, like Lemony Snicket, were hopeful trilogies, where the first is a self-contained story (by necessity, because the success of the original isn't guaranteed).

But if you can think of others, please share

 

[heliosRAzi]

Marvel movies aren't part of a planned trilogy. They're part of a whole universe, where each movie is connected but self-contained. It's something totally new in movies until very recently. Star Wars Anthologies are the closest analogue I can think of for that, but we haven't seen what those are all going to be yet.

As far as planned sequels that fall apart, the only one that sticks out to me is The Golden Compass, and that ended on a cliffhanger.

Others, like Lemony Snicket, were hopeful trilogies, where the first is a self-contained story (by necessity, because the success of the original isn't guaranteed).

But if you can think of others, please share

The point is that, planned or hopeful or whatever, we only have the one movie to judge it by so far. I'm not cool with withholding my judgment on the explanation for Rey's Force aptitude based on what might be explained later.