Support NeoGAF

[Jarmel]

This this this.

Women as leads need explanation and justification for being capable. Men generally don't.

She makes plenty of mistakes, you can see her struggling (even in the end fight, even though people claiming she's perfect apparently watched her "destroy" Kylo, when she's mostly running away, tripping on her feet, etc.), she has emotional issues, etc.

It's so annoying.

Perfect males can definitely be a problem too.

And yet another new parameter for a "Mary Sue," out of nowhere.

What? I didn't say that should be attached to the Mary Sue moniker or whatever.

 

[Angry Grimace]

People calling Rey a Mary Sue have absolutely no clue what a Mary Sue is.

Even taking away the fact that Ren was injured mentally, and physically in that last fight (not to mention already a bit winded from fighting with Finn), I would not call Rey beating him any more extraordinary than Luke hopping in a X-Wing for the first time and surviving the Death Star run.

Finn successfully fending off Kylo Ren for literally any amount of time comes off as way more eyebrow raising than Rey, a character we know to be strong in the Force doing it to the point I can only assume Finn has some level of Force sensitivity as well.

 

[KingSnake]

Yeah... she fumbles to use the mind trick for like... 10 seconds. It was a funny scene but come on, it felt incredibly rushed.

If it was 15 seconds it was better? She's Force sensitive and she discovers it when she tries to protect herself. Kylo is practically her enabler in that.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

As I keep on explaining: There should be a character arc (with it's own 3 act structure) within the first movie for her, but she only has one act and one problem to overcome.

I dunno, she has two major stumbling blocks to accepting her destiny. She doesn't want to leave the planet until her family comes, and she appears to be very solitary (and angry) and doesn't trust or make connections because she's so focused on leaving everyone. She's forced into leaving, but wants not much more than to go back as soon as she can. She finally accepts the idea that she doesn't need to go back (after finally making legitimate connections to people and allowing herself to trust/believe in them), but only after touching the saber - at which point she refuses the call of the saber, and she needs to eventually accept that her destiny is tied up in that thing and in the Force, and only accepts that after Finn falls in his efforts to not just avenge Han's death, but her own injury.

So there's two problems, and one is resolved at the midway point, and the other is resolved by the end.

her character exhibits a fair amount of growth, as opposed to Luke, who is basically the same dude we meet at the beginning of the film, personality wise. He goes through a lot of stuff, yeah, but it doesn't necessarily change the way he thinks or acts. That happens in Empire.

 

[Boke1879]

Her character is not why the movie sucked imo. Her acting was partly the reason why the movie sucked.

I'm not going to tell you how to feel about the film, but the best part of the movie were the character performances. Rey, Poe, Finn and Han all hung with each other.

 

[The Librarian]

She has no character flaws or shortcomings.

Except for the whole part where she can't accept that nobody is coming back for her on Jakku, and running away when Maz tells her to embrace the force, leading to her capture and Finn eventually getting injured because Rey wouldn't step up sooner.

And the look on her face at the end where she's clearly scared/hesitant for whatever Luke has planned for her.

 

[Foggy]

But that also illustrates the greater narrative problem with teasing Rey's backstory like this in the first place: we're basically being told to refrain from judging her character for another 18 months, when TFA itself could have equipped us with more information to make an assessment.

It's a weird writing decision to lock a main character's character traits and background in the Mystery Box, because it keeps your audience from fully connecting with them.

Also, these mystery boxes have a spotty track record on actually delivering on the payoff that justifies the teasing. It's going to be a scene just like any other in the next movie.

 

[aliengmr]

I'm not talking about some casual mention. I'm talking specific examples of how to use some pretty advanced force abilities.

Please explain what is involved in the mind trick ability. I'm not familiar with the Jedi spell book. What makes any ability "advanced"?

 

[ghst]

i'd have loved kylo wren to be female. a properly strong character with challenging attributes, not a squeaky clean aspirational figure.

 

[Trokil]

This this this.

Women as leads need explanation and justification for being capable. Men generally don't.

She makes plenty of mistakes, you can see her struggling (even in the end fight, even though people claiming she's perfect apparently watched her "destroy" Kylo, when she's mostly running away, tripping on her feet, etc.), she has emotional issues, etc.

It's so annoying.

What?

Anakin is a Gary Sue an people hated him. Luke has a backstory and fails over and over again in the first movie and people liked him.

Lea is way cooler in the first movie than Han or Luke and nobody had a problem with that.

 

[Toothless]

Great OT. I really hate this accusation against Rey since she's really a fantastic character.

I mean Kylo was blasted with a huge ass gun and even had to pump his chest several times just to keep going. It's not like it was necessarily a fair fight. Who knows.

Slightly off-topic, but seeing as Kylo's expression is kinda "Bring it on!" ish, I've interpreted that as him believing pain brings you closer to the dark side, something that repeated several times in the movies before. He just really misinterpreted it as it's emotional pain that brings you more power, definitely not physical pain.

 

[plasmawave]

If it was 15 seconds it was better? She's Force sensitive and she discovers it when she tries to protect herself. Kylo is practically her enabler in that.

Maybe save all of that for future movies? She bested the main villain in the first movie. What else is there to look forward to in terms of her character growth?

 

[Eidan]

The thing that irks me the most about people crying Mary Sue is the fact that even if OP's point were not right on the mark (they are, great post OP) and Rey could fit the actual definition of an author insert-Mary Sue (which, as far as I know, the film's writers J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt weren't biologically born female or present themselves as female):

So what? Who cares if she was a Mary Sue?

Pretty much all of Arnold Schwarzenegger's leading film roles are Mary/Gary Stu incarnate yet he and his films are never called out for it. And as pointed out numerous times in the thread, loads of other male leads are never put on trial for their supposed Stu-ness.

That's the actual issue, that there seems to be a need to "justify" an all-powerful female lead character when the opposite is virtually never seen for male leads. That's why it bothers me that Max Landis still believes there isn't a sexist tinge to using the term. Why do the female leads need to conform to his narrow-minded world of female characters in film? We have flawed male leads and invincible male leads that are equally enjoyed by all. Why do women need to apologize for kicking ass too?

When a male character is highly skilled, perhaps even overpowered, the male audience tends to live vicariously through them. The character is a badass, and they idolize him. If a female character is highly skilled, even overpowered, she is a Mary Sue. A sign of poor writing at best, or a PC culture run amok at worst.

 

[Jarmel]

Please explain what is involved in the mind trick ability. I'm not familiar with the Jedi spell book. What makes any ability "advanced"?

It's a big ass moment in RotJ when Luke does it and it's supposed to be a reflection of how advanced he was compared to ESB.

 

[shira]

She was totally unbelievable as a young white girl.

"that one's gaaabaj"

 

[fantomena]

Who's Mary Sue?

 

[The Librarian]

What?

Anakin is a Gary Sue an people hated him. Luke has a backstory and fails over and over again in the first movie and people liked him.

Lea is way cooler in the first movie than Han or Luke and nobody had a problem with that.

lmfao nobody was calling Anakin a "Gary sue" before Rey showed up.

This whole "controversy" is rooted in sexism, which can't be helped. We don't see a lot of female protagonists, so when does appear, she's subjected to more scrutiny than your average male character.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

When a male character is highly skilled, perhaps even overpowered, the male audience tends to live vicariously through them. The character is a badass, and they idolize him.

Audiences, meet John McClane.

 

[Skux]

I say this in every spoiler thread, but I'll say it again:

In a universe where there exists a supernatural force that not only allows people to achieve supernatural feats but also guides people's actions when they open their minds and allow it to do so, looking at a confrontation whose turning point occurs when the protagonist enters a meditative/trance-like state from the lens of "power levels" or "force abilities" is completely missing the point.

I assume once the full trilogy is out we'll look at all of this with a different lens.

Agreed with these posts.

People get so caught up in trying to make everything make sense, in a world with a very clear supernatural presence.

They get caught up in Dragonball Z-style power level debates about Kylo's injury level, his skill level and training, and Rey's skills as a pilot, shooter, and who should "win" a fight based on these tangible things and whether they're explained enough in the plot to make sense...

...completely forgetting that in this universe there is supernatural space magic that can't be quantified or measured by science and plot points. It is very clearly portrayed as a spiritual acceptance during Rey's fight with Kylo. It has no explanation, and needs none. That's the point, it's about faith, and maybe it's because I had a religious upbringing but I find it strange that people can't accept that concept, or at least accept it in the context of the Star Wars universe.

And yeah, it's also a trilogy. Plenty of time to develop Rey. It's not like Luke had much of a character in A New Hope.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

One of the problems I've had with this whole thing is the issue of deflection. Max Landis has had this where people try to character assassinate him rather than address the points, and Mark Waid actually had a go at him for shitting on a character that appeals to young girls (as if Max Landis is somehow a villain snatching away a character).

When I actually addressed the points Mark Waid brought up to him, do you know what he did? Blocked me on twitter. Simply because I pointed out that it is silly to point out another example of a mary sue character as a way of excusing Rey's portrayal in a movie.

It just seems like if anything about the movie gets challenged then the ardent fans get hostile.

My whole experience with that fandom has been negative.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just hand-waved Rey doing the mind trick and her trying to do something similar to what Kylo Ren was trying to do to her.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Did you somehow forget destroying the death star and saving the planet in the Mary Sue Points category?

As I said
The shot could have been made without Luke or the Force.
yeah Luke was the only one left to make it but him and the entire fighter wing were so outmatched that Luke would be dead before he even was in range if it wasn't for Han.

Im not saying he isn't, there is just no way Luke is more one than she is(if you even consider her one.)
(only ANH vs TFA)

 

[Bobby Roberts]

One of the problems I've had with this whole thing is the issue of deflection.

Weird that this comes up after multiple people directly address your assertion that your assessment of Rey's character arcs and obstacles put in her way over the course of her character arc are way more present and involved than you said they were.

Physician, heal thyself, right?

 

[Tookay]

If that is how it goes down I have zero problem with it. But I do have a problem with how it has been structured, which you covered in the last line of this post.

I have a big problem with JJ Abrams' approach to storytelling. It's growing to the point where I just don't think I respect him as a filmmaker (or at least a writer).

Yeah, I feel like JJ's problems as a writer are getting more pronounced with each film he makes. And I don't feel like he's learning from them. Or, if he is, he's not taking the right lessons from them.

Also, these mystery boxes have a spotty track record on actually delivering on the payoff that justifies the teasing. It's going to be a scene just like any other in the next movie.

Yeah, that's the other issue with the Mystery Box as well. That's why I feel like writers generally shouldn't root their stories in the Mystery Box structure, if it means that entire value of a story or character depends on what's inside it.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Please explain what is involved in the mind trick ability. I'm not familiar with the Jedi spell book. What makes any ability "advanced"?

Who else have you seen on screen perform a Jedi Mind Trick?

I just hand-waved Rey doing the mind trick and her trying to do something similar to what Kylo Ren was trying to do to her.

And that is pretty shitty to have to do

 

[Not]

And they're minor. The major flaw she has is the delusion that her parents are coming back to her on Jakku. Too bad the film doesn't really expand on this point but I guess that's for VIII.

The OP says "flaws" aren't even a perfect term. Going by conflicts is the key here I think. Even if we're using "flaws" her actual major flaw seems to be her overconfidence and compulsiveness. Even if her unwillingness to leave Jakku isn't dealt with to the extent you'd prefer, it hardly brings the movie down.

I think people who start by saying "Rey has no flaws" and then "Rey doesn't have enough flaws" and finally "Rey's flaws aren't enough to keep her from being a Mary Sue in the big picture" should probably reread this:

So, with the scavenging, she was by all accounts at the bottom of the pole in terms of social class if she was allowed to be so easily screwed out of her portions like she was and couldn't do anything about it. She didn't beat that conflict except by stealing the Falcon from her boss, and she did that unwillingly, and I am pretty sure it wasn't all that great a loss to him. She escaped the storm troopers, but it has to be noted that she only did so because Finn was an extraordinarily good shot and would have been dead without him on the guns. She didn't 'win' the freighter incident, she just survived it, with her greatest victory being that she could close the doors on the monster in time so that Finn wouldn't be eaten. Otherwise, all she could do was get in the falcon and GTFO with Han (though she admittedly helped by pointing out the compression issue, but even then, Han would have spotted that a second later). She flat out lost in the storm trooper invasion on the rebel base, and the few victories she did get were against stormtroopers, and those weren't well placed shots. That's one thing Rey is undoubtedly less talented in than any other fighter, she flat out sucks at blasters. Not to the point that she can't take down stormtroopers, but you should pay attention to the wild shots she is taking when Kylo Ren stomps in. Then she won the mind battle, and successfully sneaked about, lost and wandering, until Han and Finn spotted her. Otherwise, what would she have done exactly? Ren suspected that she'd steal a ship, so he immediately ordered to put the harbors on lock down, so she was screwed there. She couldn't do anything to save Han. She was on the run for most of the fight with Kylo Ren (i'll get into the particulars of that fight in a moment) and then found a ship to steal away from the base afterwards.

She definitely has some wins in there and she isn't utterly helpless in any of them. But this does not seem like an overwhelming win chart to me. She's always good enough to get by, but the fact is that she's subject to the forces that move the world. She can't just take over that colony or whatever she's at in the beginning, she had no recourse except to GTFO against the tentacle monsters, and she didn't fight back the whole base when she was running around. She can't take on the world.

What about internal problems though? Well, other than when Kylo Ren is trying to get at her, she's her own worst enemy. The internal drama that drives her character arc is the fact that she can't let go of Jakku, which she actually hates, but that's where she believes her family will come for her. And this actually prevents her from doing what she wants. This is most obvious after the freighter incident. At first, she was getting away from Jakku for personal safety, but then they actually get away, and she is simply stunned by the forest planet they find. And then they get out, and Han offers her a job. This might be the most giddy she gets, and that's important. You can see she wants to do this so badly. And then you see her crest-fallen. She can't. She needs to go back to wait for her family that she knows she is never going to come back.

Like I said, flaw is a subjective word. It's not as bad a term as Mary Sue, but I still feel asking what Rey's conflict is more applicable than asking what her flaw is. But, gun to my head? If I had to give if a definition, "flaw" in narrative typically denotes a character aspect that prevents a character from achieving what they want. Her flaw is her inability to let go of the past and embrace the new life she has set before her. Han offers her a job, and she runs away. She feels the connection with the lightsaber, and she runs away. She is plagued by self inflicted loneliness. You can see her harshly try to turn away any allies, from BB-8 to Han to Finn helping her out, trying to keep an emphasis of self reliance. Her character journey is coming to the decision of moving on, and embracing her connection with the force, which is done as of the end of the movie. Perhaps that's why some people feel she has no flaws. Because by the end, the focal character drama she has is resolved. Which, of course, doesn't mean it's gone. We can fully expect that her family will play a part in the future movies. But she now has a new path in life, and she embraces (literally) Finn as an undyingly loyal friend and comrade. Her loneliness and attachment to her past life have been alleviated and her 'flaw' has been dealt with for the nonce.

Still, regarding the external challenges she faces once again, some people feel she gets off too easy. I will admit, those ship maneuvers are pretty impressive for someone who has never gone off world, and she is a pretty quick study with the force. So lets look at some of her conflicts a little more in depth.

...


People have called Rey's use of force a cheap power up, and I don't think I can disagree about anything except the cheap part. That's what the force is, an empowering aspect of the universe. Luke was empowered by it not because he 'mastered' it, but because he let it flow through him. His mastery of the force under Yoda's training is never about him controlling the force, but flowing with it. You don't get strong ON the force, you get strong WITH the force. And as I mentioned, Rey simply doesn't have the kind of hangups Luke had about the force because she has a different perspective on the whole thing that gives her an arguably easier time accessing it once she accepts it into her life (which incidentally was a problem Luke never had).

The world and characters also don't bend over backward to her will. She's very much being taken along for the ride.

 

[Neoweee]

Audiences, meet John McClane.

One of Max's examples, long before he criticized TFA. Also, Jurassic World and John Cena.

But when he starts to criticize a female character, people lose their shit and call him sexist.

 

[KingSnake]

Maybe save all of that for future movies? She bested the main villain in the first movie. What else is there to look forward to in terms of her character growth?

There are so many possibilities because you don't know the background. Her being abandoned on a crappy planet will create some big ass issues further on, especially if Luke is her father. She has still to face her issues.

Kylo is also a developing character. He's a typical serial killer in the making. Kylo from TFA will not be seen in the next two episodes, I'm sure. It won't be that easy next time.

This was just a survival battle, it was not yet the good vs. evil one.

 

[Branduil]

Audiences, meet John McClane.

The name's Bond. James Bond.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Weird that this comes up after multiple people directly address your assertion that your assessment of Rey's character arcs and obstacles put in her way over the course of her character arc are way more present and involved than you said they were.

Physician, heal thyself, right?

I'm not talking about the people here.

In fact when I talked about this issue about hostile fans elsewhere, do you know what they said? "You're a fucking idiot". They kept on proving my point with every single reply.

Critiquing movies is what I've done for years but the ONLY time where I've gotten hate for it is when I started pointing out a problem with this movie.

 

[Bear Force One]

The term Mary Sue is just subtle sexism and a lazy criticism. Tropes are fine and the people who aha I found them are tedious to me.


Nitpick culture makes me sad.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But when he starts to criticize a female character, people lose their shit and call him sexist.

Well that's because he's sexist.

His own gross personal issues are kinda tangential to the weak argument he initiated, though. His argument regarding Rey is weak for its own reasons.

One of the more interesting lessons I think a lot of people have learned from this whole brouhaha is that "nothing bad ever came of unfollowing Max Landis"

 

[LegendofLex]

Agreed with these posts.

People get so caught up in trying to make everything make sense, in a world with a very clear supernatural presence.

...completely forgetting that in this universe there is supernatural space magic that can't be quantified or measured by science and plot points. It has no explanation, and needs none. That's the point, it's about faith, and maybe it's because I had a religious upbringing but I find it strange that people can't accept that concept, or at least accept it in the context of the Star Wars universe.

Exactly.

Rey is at first afraid of embracing the Force, but lets faith in the Force take over when she's driven literally to the edge of a cliff.

Kylo, as we can see, is obsessed with fear of weakness. His biggest moment in the film was when he killed his father, who he believed was weak and an obstacle to him reaching his full potential in the dark side. In other words, he has a lack of faith. His wounds in the final fight are a symbol of this; he's a broken shell of a man and his attempts to end his pain only cause more pain.

And in a movie about a god-like force whose will guides the actions of those who trust in it and controls the flow of the entire universe, which of those two characters will win?

 

[Toxi]

The mind trick scene was bad not because Rey found it out too quickly, but because there was no reason for her to try performing a Jedi mind trick like that. She hasn't seen the movies, so why is she imitating Obi-Wan? Why not have her accomplish a Jedi mind trick with different phrasing she comes up with on her own, or even non-verbally?

That's clumsy writing in general though; giving characters knowledge they shouldn't have because the audience has that knowledge.

Anakin is a Gary Sue an people hated him.

Anakin Skywalker is not a Gary Stu in any sense of the phrase.

 

[Ophelion]

It's a big ass moment in RotJ when Luke does it and it's supposed to be a reflection of how advanced he was compared to ESB.

He calmly uses a bunch of force powers back to back like he was doing nothing more than walking down the street. Dude's throwing out force chokes, mind tricks, all kinds of stuff in that movie. That to me conveys his Jedi mastery. Pulling one use of one power out of your ass because you need it to survive is a hallmark move of the inexperienced epic-hero-to-be.

They could've maybe sold it harder by giving her a beat as she escapes where she's like almost scared of it and is all, "How the hell did I just do that?" But otherwise, nah it was fine.

 

[Beast Legacy]

When a male character is highly skilled, perhaps even overpowered, the male audience tends to live vicariously through them. The character is a badass, and they idolize him. If a female character is highly skilled, even overpowered, she is a Mary Sue. A sign of poor writing at best, or a PC culture run amok at worst.

Bin-fucking-go!

Lack of empathy and selfishness. Man, just imagine the discussion for when the new Ghostbusters film comes out.

 

[Leeness]

Perfect males can definitely be a problem too.

What?

Anakin is a Gary Sue an people hated him. Luke has a backstory and fails over and over again in the first movie and people liked him.

Lea is way cooler in the first movie than Han or Luke and nobody had a problem with that.

As some have mentioned above, perfect males are generally "so cool", "wish I could be him", unless he steps into the "annoying as hell" category (which Anakin did).

Leia wasn't the main character, just the cool princess If she was the main and rescued Luke from Vader, you can bet she would be hated.

lmfao nobody was calling Anakin a "Gary sue" before Rey showed up.

This whole "controversy" is rooted in sexism, which can't be helped. We don't see a lot of female protagonists, so when does appear, she's subjected to more scrutiny than your average male character.

And yeah, I don't ever recall "Gary Stu" being tossed at Anakin, he got "he's so fucking whiny and annoying" (which he was).

It is a sexism thing unfortunately, whether people realize it or not. :/

 

[Blanquito]

I haven't been too active in TFA threads, so I didn't know this was an argument going on. Thanks for the in depth post.

I was never in any disbelief about what was happening in the film.

See, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the movie: this girl that literally picked up a lightsaber 10 seconds ago is suddenly able to duel with and win a fight against a trained Sith that is so good that he supposedly killed all the other Jedi that Luke trained. Huh? How is that believable at all??

 

[heliosRAzi]

Audiences, meet John McClane.

Meet John McClane, a cop who put the job before his family and struggles to reconcile with his estranged wife. Also, he's barefoot a lot.

Unless you're talking about the modern John McClane.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Perfect males can definitely be a problem too.



What? I didn't say that should be attached to the Mary Sue moniker or whatever.

But they don't get twitter firestorms do they? Seriously can you think of the last male big budget character that got widely criticized for being too good?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Who else have you seen on screen perform a Jedi Mind Trick?



And that is pretty shitty to have to do

I mean, I guess. Star Wars is for children, it doesn't need a super complicated explanation. It's consistent enough.

I mean, this is a series where Luke beat Darth Vader in a lightsaber fight despite how incredibly unlikely it would be that this could occur.

But they don't get twitter firestorms do they? Seriously can you think of the last male big budget character that got widely criticized for being too good?

There's basically no franchise that's bigger than Star Wars though. It just naturally gets more attention. Someone might have said it about Anakin had the role been well written and acted.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

See, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the movie: this girl that literally picked up a lightsaber 10 seconds ago is suddenly able to duel with and win a fight against a trained Sith that is so good that he supposedly killed all the other Jedi that Luke trained. Huh? How is that believable at all??

Skilled with a handheld weapon (as shown in the fight on Jakku)
Able to access the Force (as shown in the torture room)
Kylo Ren is not a Sith
Kylo Ren is emotionally fucked up
Kylo Ren is PHYSICALLY fucked up

 

[Sheentak]

I think the Mary Sue accusations come as she bested Kylo Ren twice.
Once in Force and the other in a Lightsaber duel, she basically neutered Kylo Ren.
To Audiences he got beat by somebody with no training and his pretty much worthless as a villain now.

Not so much that Rey is a Mary Sue but more of the fact Kylo Ren is a fucking flop as a Villain.

 

[LegendofLex]

See, this is one of the biggest problems I have with the movie: this girl that literally picked up a lightsaber 10 seconds ago is suddenly able to duel with and win a fight against a trained Sith that is so good that he supposedly killed all the other Jedi that Luke trained. Huh? How is that believable at all??

Luke: I don't, I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm not talking about the people here.

If you're not talking about the people here then why post that comment in this thread. Because it doesn't link with anything else from this thread.

 

[Ophelion]

But they don't get twitter firestorms do they? Seriously can you think of the last male big budget character that got widely criticized for being too good?

The closest thing to that I can think of was Man of Steel's Superman being widely criticized for being not good enough, lol.

 

[DrForester]

Finn successfully fending off Kylo Ren for literally any amount of time comes off as way more eyebrow raising than Rey, a character we know to be strong in the Force doing it to the point I can only assume Finn has some level of Force sensitivity as well.

They established that First Order Stormtroopers are trained in melee combat. I didn't expect him to win, but being able to hold his own for a few minutes doesn't seem out of the question, especially with how he was injured.

 

[Ghost]

The more I read about this whole subject (hadn't heard of it before this week) the more it makes me really truly sad.

Such a stupid thing that we even have a term for specifically discussing a FEMALE character in this way, if you take her gender out of the equation then you're left with a character who could fall into just about any blockbuster action film in the last 25 years with no eyebrows being raised.

If you want to say "Action heros are stupid bad characters who lack any depth because they have no flaws" then yeah sure, that's a valid, if stupid, discussion (If you're disappointed with character depth in action movies, go watch other types of movies, it's like complaining about a car chase in a woody allen film). But why even discuss this in terms of gender unless you're trying to suggest that a man would be more believable as a character that capable? And if that is what you are trying to say then I point you back to the first line of my post.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Well that's because he's sexist.

His own gross personal issues are kinda tangential to the weak argument he initiated, though. His argument regarding Rey is weak for its own reasons.

One of the more interesting lessons I think a lot of people have learned from this whole brouhaha is that "nothing bad ever came of unfollowing Max Landis"

See? Character assassination as a form of deflection. His points aren't worth addressing because he's such a shithead, right?

I don't have time for people who do that.

If you're not talking about the people here then why post that comment in this thread. Because it doesn't link with anything else from this thread.

Well, now I am. See above.

 

[Trokil]

As some have mentioned above, perfect males are generally "so cool", "wish I could be him", unless he steps into the "annoying as hell" category (which Anakin did).

No, Max Landis for example hates those perfect characters. He hates Superman, he hates John Cena.

And most of the time, they are not the most loved characters as well. Batman for example, most people want to be him not Superman.