Hell, how much whining have we seen with regards to Kylo Ren not being badass enough?
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
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That could have been gleaned from any one of the many times he had used the force during is entrance. His entire demeanor had changed, which was the ultimate sign of growth.
But my point is there's no "way". There is no specific outline determining who can do what.
I'll get to this in a bit as I'm on my phone but some of tthe stuff like Rey not being able to get more food rations is irrelevant in terms of her actual character. It's not like she's portrayed as gullible or anything of that nature.
Which is why for almost everybody, Casino Royale is considered the best Bond movie because Bond is the most human and flawed in it.
They could have had something like the trooper pulling the alarm but things like him dropping his gun while done for comedic effect, highlight how well she pulled it off.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Are you suggesting the scene where she beat up like 5 guys with a staff earlier in the movie had no reason at all to exist? If you can accept that she has pre-established skills in melee combat, it's pretty easy to accept that she could adapt them to doing so with the guidance of the Force's precognition powers.
Ohhhhh no, PC culture run amok. Horrible. Soon we'll be too afraid to even leave our homes to ask women to make us sandwiches and smile more.
The thing is... Luke was still trying to grasp the Force as a concept.
Both Rey and Kylo Ren had already embraced it by the time they fought.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
The problem is that I don't really feel that she ever really accepts that nobody is coming back for her. She runs away and then gets captured by Kylo Ren and it's not really discussed again. I would have been much clearer and impactful if during the end of the film Leia has a ship ready to take her back to Jakku and she contemplated going back then decides to hop on falcon and find Luke.
Ogrekiller
Member
heliosRAzi
Banned
How is he a sexist?
SonicMegaDrive
Member
The female characters that I don't like.
He hadn't finished his training.
Got shot with a bowcaster.
Killed his dad and was upset.
Has all of his plans crumbling around him.
There are a lot of reasons Kyle Ren lost.
LegendofLex
Member
Yeah, one would think having her own mind invasively probed by a creep in a mask and getting hit by a vision bus would slap any of her doubts away.
He switched off his targeting computer!
I like Max Landis, and while I would argue he does need an ego check to reach his potential he's got plenty of talent in him as a screenwriter. I love Chronicle and his wresting and comic book analyses. And you're right that his arguments are the appropriate target rather than his identity.
In this case, he is wrong. He's wrong in a lot of ways, and his confidence in that wrongness is off-putting. Seeing him get so visibly worked up about it- passionate would be the diplomatic word, I guess- does not reinforce his arguments.
"A Mary Sue is a character who's too good at stuff." No. We're off to a horrible start. This is bad. This is the content of the post this thread is about. Your definition of what a Mary Sue is doesn't match up with mine. Mine doesn't match up with that guy's over there. He doesn't address the ambiguity of the term. A couple minutes of twitter later and the entire internet is talking at cross purposes with itself.
When you deputize such an incredibly loaded term into your argument and then use such a narrow operating definition for it you are actively harming discourse on the topic. He has either no cognizance of how fruitless the resulting debates will be, or, if I may, is knowingly capitalizing on the controversial nature of such a label, the very controversy that has me paying attention to him and talking to him now. THAT is why we're all talking about this, not that he thinks Rey isn't a strong character. And I know he must know that, and that dulls my sympathy for his position.
At this point he has done damage to the critical discussion of the movie itself. But I will pretend he never used the phrase Mary Sue at all. Instead, I will pretend his criticism was. "Rey is too good at too many things and this makes her a poorly drawn character" and go from there.
"That's not what a strong female character is. A strong female character is not a character who's physically strong." I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume that means, in his agitated state, that a strong female character doesn't or shouldn't have to be physically strong, and not that a strong female character cannot be physically strong, or that physically strong female characters are poor characters by definition.
"You can say, oh, it's part of a trilogy, but that's not how movies work. That's how TV shows work. This isn't like Lord of the Rings where there are 3 books. We have to take it on faith that these movies will explain everything, and that's not good enough." This aspect of his argument seems particularly weak to me. We are indeed like the readers of the Fellowship of the Ring prior to the publication of The Two Towers. Many questions are raised and we have no knowledge with which to judge the quality of the answers. But just having questions isn't the same as being dissatisfied with the answers. You don't have to take it on faith that the movies will explain everything... who knows? Maybe there are great answers and maybe there are shitty ones, or maybe they don't exist. But even if I join him in his interpretation of Rey as "good-at-everything-no-threat-girl," either Rey is a poorly drawn character regardless of the full nature of her character we haven't been exposed to yet, and thus the other movies don't even matter at all, or the possibility exists that she is not such a poorly drawn character even under this interpretation because of information we don't yet have. I guess he is taking the former- she is irredeemable- which seems like an extreme stance, especially when considering the characterization of certain characters in A New Hope alone versus the full trilogy.
"Rey is able to defeat an expert- well, at least, not an expert but a well-trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke force-user, within seconds of getting a lightsaber." Here he controverts the prior point, deputizing information we don't really have (and we presumably will get in the sequels) to support his interpretation of Rey, even though it's not in this movie. We have very, very little information on the quality or extent of Kylo Ren's training. We do have established character traits of impatience, stubbornness, emotional turbulence, cowardice and uncertainty. We also have the context of him having been shot in the gut by a bowcaster and having just murdered his father.
"A janitor was able to almost defeat a force-user in a lightsaber fight." That's not how I'd characterize the event in question, at all, but regardless- this isn't by any stretch of the imagination a criticism of Rey, the topic of his video. At this point he's just ranting about things he doesn't like. Outside of the scope of his assessment of the screenwriting, he's talking about his personal preference. He just doesn't buy the characters. That's fine, I guess. He'd have made Rey suck more and Kylo suck less- even without the knowledge of what occurs in the later films. That much is obvious.
I am not convinced that would have made for a better movie. Bad Max. Bad.
I actually can't think of an example.
Like I never saw someone criticize Captain America for basically being flawless in the Winter Soldier.
heliosRAzi
Banned
She did have her own ship by the end, but she didn't go back to Jakku. I see what you're saying, though.
But it's beating up a couple of desert randoms vs the guy who slaughtered what was supposed to be a new order of Jedi.
Pratt's character in Jurassic World. I remember a lot of people going in on his character.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
It isn't anywhere close to consistent even in The Force Awakens as a standalone movie. Like I said in the other thread she force pulls the lightsaber away from Kylo Ren, a guy who stopped a blaster shot midair the first time we see him on screen, without ever previously doing it or ever seeing it done.
And Luke vs Vader was much more believable. Even still he was IMMEDIATELY defeated by Palpatine like 10 seconds later.
Don't forget that he completely overwhelmed her when the duel began. The force whisper took over though and she was fine.
We do know that Rey at least knows stories and myths about the OT, though. It's not inconceivable that she's heard of a Jedi mind trick, even if she's never seen one.
captainpat
Member
No, but that's in large part because people don't get fiercely defense when you accuse a male character of being a marysue.
Yeah, I that's how I interpreted it, though I think Abrams could have conveyed Kylo Ren's dire situation a bit better. Maybe had him look a bit more roughed up than he did, and made the fight more knock down drag out with less force usage. Better show his force powers fail him as he loses blood and focus. And have Rey struggle a bit more with her command of the force during the fight.
I just think that fight scene could've been better done, but I like the idea. Despite some flaws in the writing and direction, I still loved the movie, and Daisey Ridley really made that character shine. Physically, she was pretty great at conveying Rey as a scrappy scavenger. Strong and wiry, a bit hyper. She really is a great acting find for the franchise.
I don't know who Max Landis is. That's nice for him, though.
There's lots of guys who want to be Superman, or Spider-Man, or Batman.
The Librarian
Banned
It was also after her interrogation scene with Ren.
He wrote American Ultra...
The story of a higher calling of a destined stoner dude who can kill on a whim, be a badass, be a superhero and get the girl...
He has no business listing anything and somehow citing "Flawless protagonists" or "mary sues" when he writes a circle-jerk flick like that.
And I liked that movie, which is weird. But I'm a guy. I like the wish fulfillment, that's a fun thing for a movie. But the minute it's a girl he goes off on it?
Edit: There's inconsistencies in Force Awakens for sure, but to hold "Mary Sue" over its head, as though that somehow lessens the film, is juvenile at best.
I'm pretty sure "Mary Sue" was originally supposed to be gender-neutral. People who didn't understand that started using "Gary Stu."
Now, yeah, unfortunately, we've got people using the term who instinctively think an action movie with an awesome female character with no overt love interests is "bad writing."
Good Job Bob
Member
It's funny because they really went out of their way to show that Kylo was injured in that fight.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Why it incredibly hard to believe that the people saying that she easily bested Kylo Ren, who had her on the edge, are being genuine. That fight was brutal, but because was so emotionally distressed and running on pure adrenaline. "Why did the guy who's not a sith and is fucked up to the point where he can barely speak clearly because he got shot not just wrecking this girl man. I can't self insert myself into Finn he lost, what am I supposed to do now?" seems to be the thought process and it makes no sense. And neither do the complaints of her being a Mary Sue because she makes a ton of mistakes in the film, including the part where she got knocked out by a force push after pulling out a blaster.
Mary Sue or not, it does feel like the people in charge tried a bit too hard to get a point across, with that weird hand holding thing early on or when she manages to become a damsel in distress, only to save herself. "See, the girl doesn't need anybodies help!".
Ultimately it's an issue of how many opportunities to shine she seems to get, compared to say Luke. She accomplish things within a single movie that Luke needs 3 to do. She is also pretty much Luke and Han rolled into a single character. Add JJ's fast paced directing and editing and it feels like she does all that in a single afternoon.
Personally though, I don't think any of this is a real problem. If that's what is need to get a competent female character I'm all for it. Ridley was fun to watch. And like it was already pointed out the other characters don't just revolve around her. (though I do think she takes a bit too much of the spotlight away from other characters)
I also vastly prefer it over just retreating the same steps Luke had to go through in 3 movies. I don't have the patience for that. Frontload her asskicking and tear her down later.
Ultimately it's an issue of how many opportunities to shine she seems to get, compared to say Luke. She accomplish things within a single movie that Luke needs 3 to do. She is also pretty much Luke and Han rolled into a single character. Add JJ's fast paced directing and editing and it feels like she does all that in a single afternoon.
Personally though, I don't think any of this is a real problem. If that's what is need to get a competent female character I'm all for it. Ridley was fun to watch. And like it was already pointed out the other characters don't just revolve around her. (though I do think she takes a bit too much of the spotlight away from other characters)
I also vastly prefer it over just retreating the same steps Luke had to go through in 3 movies. I don't have the patience for that. Frontload her asskicking and tear her down later.
Uh, have you actually seen American Ultra? The dude is hardly a flawless protagonist.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
To be fair, he really wasn't. What a pathetic joke of a villain.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think Kylo Ren's nature as the villain of the piece helps feed into this.
I tweeted something a couple days ago that took off pretty decently:
and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting her competency and victories in the film.
Kylo Ren isn't the traditional "badass" bad guy. If anything, he's more like a metatextual commentary on shitty Star Wars fans, who take all the wrong lessons from the story being told. There are a lot of people who, whether they consciously realize it or not, see themselves in that misguided, stubborn, mean-spirited, scared character. It's why his appearance shocks the shit out of people. He takes off the mask and he looks like... a cosplayer way too into his persona. Which is what he is. He's not a badass. He's not the power-fantasy he wants to be. He's closer to a fuckin School Shooter than anything, a stupid, shithead kid who thinks the only way he can be special is to ruin everything good for whatever silly reasons he's decided to latch onto.
So that's unpleasant to a lot of people. Then combine the fact this girl, who is essentially the personification of the Luke role in the first film, but maximized and made more dynamic in a couple ways, defeats him outright. Not just mentally, but physically as well. Granted, he's handicapped during that fight, but she wins it clean, with the help of The Force. (clean as in she's not bailed out via deus ex machina or a team up w/another character)
What you're seeing are people reacting to not just the defeat of a Male Power Fantasy, but the defeat of a very specific Male Power Fantasy that is kinda laid bare as the wimpy, shitty falsehood it often is, at the hands of a character who normally (and to their mind, by all rights probably SHOULD be) is a guy, but isn't.
For a lot of people, I think what they're really reacting to is the fact their normal in to this fantasy world is now shut off. Of course, it really isn't, they just can't concieve of allowing the woman (or the black guy) to be their surrogate. So the criticism then gets poured into how stupid it was to make the villain an accurate, creepy representation of all the wrong things about that power fantasy, and how stupid it was to allow the girl to inhabit some of the same traits their favorite heroes consistently inhabit.
The Librarian
Banned
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Rey is definitely mot a mary sue whatever the hell that term means any way, she has just grown to be totally self reliant and the film sells that well. Plus she is highly force sensitive for unkown reasons so far.
The only problematic part was her doing the mind trick, i think if her pulling anakins saber to her was her first official use of the force that would have been sooo much better.
The only problematic part was her doing the mind trick, i think if her pulling anakins saber to her was her first official use of the force that would have been sooo much better.
exactly. We look at the whole Luke arc differently because we see him through the whole trilogy we know how his character grows. Like Bobby Roberts said though. in ANH Luke never really changes his personality in that movie. He's always kind of this naive, yet bratty kid. We really see his growth in Empire and even then he doesn't except the Force for what it is and he doubts Yoda plenty.
While we do compare Luke and Rey in that respect in their affinity with the Force. They are very different characters. Luke isn't longing for a family, he has that. Rey is. Rey doesn't want to leave Jakku because she feels someone is coming back for her. Luke couldn't get off Tatooine any quicker than he did.
Rey longs for family. She doesn't even care that Finn was a Stormtrooper she just doesn't want to be abandoned again by someone she's formed a connection with. Not to mention she actually does struggle during this movie.
And in the context of the trilogy. We have no idea where her character is going. Hell we no idea where they are taking any of these characters and that's the most exciting part imo.
Actually, I really like that. It always seems like a missed opportunity when people are in some way mentally forcing others to do things they don't want to do, that the person under control never tries to rules lawyer their commands. I always think that would be funny, but it almost never happens. It might not work for the good old Jedi Mind Trick though since Obi-Wan specifically described it as clouding the minds of weak willed people. If you're strong enough willed to rules lawyer the commands, you're probably strong willed enough to resist the trick altogether.
It also depends on the movie. Not all movies are scrutinized this heavily by anyone and everyone like a Star Wars movie. Also, action movies and by extension comic book movies can easily have this lobbied against them but the appropriate response would be "does it matter?" and it's considered besides the point. Nobody's going to really care that John Matrix isn't a "good" character from a writing perspective. But for an epic story, particularly a one with history, particularly one with many characters, character is going to be looked at more closely.
Yeah, this.
I think it's a better term. It's doesn't come off as being quite so derogatory, and people would know exactly what's meant by it.
Someone who hangs out with all the characters (or types of characters) you love. Someone those characters all instantly like, and quickly see as a peer. Someone who does all the things you'd like to do in that world (like be a crew member on the bridge of the Enterprise). Someone who solves all the problems the other main characters can't. Someone who's good at just about everything, and is naturally better at things than characters who specialize in those things. Someone who doesn't need to be saved by the other main characters, and is actually the one who ends up saving them.
Someone like that.
That said, I don't think this would've even been brought up if Rey was a guy.
Ogrekiller
Member
The only Mary Sue definite quality I can think of is when Leia hugs her at the end. Leia doesn't have a fucking clue who she is and I don't care if it's the force or they are related. That scene was very well done but they was no reason for Leia to go to her first especially since Chewie walked right by her without stopping.
Other than that it's your stereotypical power fantasy deal like others have said before.
Like when people don't want female protagonists in their video games - video game protagonists are the ultimate Mary Sues. Same thing.
Other than that it's your stereotypical power fantasy deal like others have said before.
Like when people don't want female protagonists in their video games - video game protagonists are the ultimate Mary Sues. Same thing.
Sure, but would she know the unique phrasing used? It's an example of the filmmakers just thinking of the Jedi mind trick as a superpower instead of realizing that it's just a very specific way of manipulating the mind using the Force.
I think the next step in the cinematography will be subtitles for visual cues.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Finn was more than a Janitor, that was just what his job was on the Starkiller Base. Probably during his early training. Given that he was included in a small number of Stormtrooper bought to Jakku to accompany Ren and Phasma, he was probably one of the better troopers.
Not to mention that Ren knew his designation. He can't know everyone's designation, but he knew Finn's.
Leia never even gave Chewie a medal. He was probably the best friend of her Husband, but deep down couldn't stand the guy.
Ganzlinger
Member
Because everyone knows he is a Gary Stu and how superhero movies works. Also, that's exactly why a lot of people doesn't like him or Superman.
I find this whole Mary Sue thing to be really annoying and I agree with your post.
One thing that I was thinking during Kylo and Rey's duel was that Kylo couldn't kill her if he wanted to complete his task of finding Luke Skywalker. The mcguffin of the movie is the map fragment. With the First Order blowing up the Resistance base, that meant no more BB-8 and the map fragment. The only way they were going to find Luke was by reading Rey's mind and getting the missing map fragment from her memory. Kylo Ren couldn't kill her or else he would never know where Luke was hiding.
One thing that I was thinking during Kylo and Rey's duel was that Kylo couldn't kill her if he wanted to complete his task of finding Luke Skywalker. The mcguffin of the movie is the map fragment. With the First Order blowing up the Resistance base, that meant no more BB-8 and the map fragment. The only way they were going to find Luke was by reading Rey's mind and getting the missing map fragment from her memory. Kylo Ren couldn't kill her or else he would never know where Luke was hiding.
Why is no one mentioning that he's most likely intentionally holding back for most of the fight as well? He was ordered to capture her, not kill her.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I think that's the point honestly. He's basically a larvae in this film who going to involve into a ridiculous badass over the trilogy. Compared to Vader whose mere appearance is like "Oh shit it's Darth Mothafucking Vader" from the onset. The second he takes off the mask you see that he's a normal troubled guy.
Exactly, he locks her into a parry to try to persuade her to join his side. When she was on the very edge of life or death. So much context is ignored because the mary sue argument doesn't hold up and for some reason a woman protagonist needs to be justified and nitpicked to death.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Well explain it like the idiot I am.
LookAtMeGo
Member
I dunno, I saw her struggle. I noticed she is angry a lot and I think this is going to be a major hurdle for her to overcome in her training. Especially if she finds out the truth to her origin, whatever that is, and doesnt like what she hears. Her character was done so well but at no point did I see her as being OP. Shes basically a ninja after being alone scavenging for so long but can hold her own. She looks like she likes to avoid confrontation but can take care of business when it comes down to it. Her physical abilities aren't her weakness, why should they be? Its her fear IMO. She seems to be afraid of abandonment and has some doubt about herself at times.
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering". And "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Words of advice from my boy Yoda that she is going to have to learn as well.
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering". And "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Words of advice from my boy Yoda that she is going to have to learn as well.
When he's linking 4chan posts smarmishly on Twitter he's not really standing out from the crowd in that regard.
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