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[mr teaspoon]

I think people forget that in all creative endeavors there is a personal investment that creates a very strong attachment to the creator.

People saying the developer shouldn't cry or take it personally are missing the fucking the point. If someone put tons of time, effort, and heart in a project, of course they're going to respond emotionally to criticism. People are human.

Moreover, this appears to the developers first big project. Developing a thick skin to criticism takes time. Jeez, people.

I don't disagree with any of that, but I just don't see how you can link any of it to '....and therefore, we should talk nicer about things online.'

Fuck that. People are human, you said it yourself -- that means casually calling something a piece of shit and not considering who worked on it or for how long, and that's fine.

 

[Erevador]

I miss bishoptl. We need a no nonsense mod like that again.

People getting roped into overly broad mass bannings doesn't exactly create a sense of trust and harmony on the board. GAF's heavy moderation is a delicate balance. If it starts to feel overly censorious and totally unpredictable it hurts the whole community and makes the place feel more totalitarian than necessary. Well behaved users will just avoid interesting discussion because they know the threshold for thought crime is extremely low.

Bish overdid it.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I don't think any piece of work doesn't come under scrutiny or have negative comments made about it. A creator has got to either take the criticism or ignore it, or else every creator of anything would be forever crying just focusing on the negative.

Also is this the first time modbot was overruled like that? That was pretty savage.

 

[entremet]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I just don't see how you can link any of it to '....and therefore, we should talk nicer about things online.'

Fuck that. People are human, you said it yourself -- that means casually calling something a piece of shit and not considering who worked on it or for how long, and that's fine.

I'm fine with people talking how they want to talk.

My issue is people telling the guy he shouldn't cry. People cry at disappointments. This is not new or unusual.

 

[Plum]

I wish more people would take my approach when it comes to the gaming side. I RARELY ever talk shit about something. Not because I'm afraid to voice my opinion but I just don't see any point to it. I just dislike being a parade shitter. Unless the thread is specifically to ask an opinion on somethings quality you will never see me do it. And even in those threads it'll be one comment.

It really doesn't take a whole lot of restraint either. Topic about a game I think sucks? I don't even care to click into it. Topic about a trailer to a hyped game? I'll give it a watch and skim some posts, if I didn't like it I'll quickly try to articulate my thoughts on it and leave it but more often than not I just hit back and continue onto something I like and want to talk about.

In OT I actually don't mind the shit slinging lol. I don't do it much but I don't mind it.

Whilst I don't particularly agree with the OT point at the end I can agree with the rest of this post whole-heartedly. I really don't like posting what some might call "hot takes" because, for the most part, summing up in just one short sentence makes it meaningless to me. I just don't like posting something serious unless I feel like I've got something to say that hasn't been said many times before.

I also do the same and just ignore many threads (or lurk in them to watch the fireworks). After many heated debates in threads regarding a certain Youtuber (one of which I was implied to be both paranoid and delusional) I've now just learnt to ignore any in the future because it's not worth my time. I've found that once an argument gets to 3 or 4 posts it might as well not have even started. In the Destiny 2 trailer thread, for example, I was pretty much posting the exact same thing over and over to people who will never agree with my points.

 

[Josh5890]

People getting roped into overly broad mass bannings doesn't exactly create a sense of trust and harmony on the board. GAF's heavy moderation is a delicate balance. If it starts to feel overly censorious and totally unpredictable it hurts the whole community and makes the place feel more totalitarian than necessary. Well behaved users will just avoid interesting discussion because they know the threshold for thought crime is extremely low.

Bish overdid it.

He may have but I've read threads where he closed and told people that he was going to mow over the thread with a lawnmower and ban people. I didn't post in there but that still scared the living crap out of me. Dude had a little magic to him.

 

[Kadin]

There's nothing to elaborate on really. One day Evilore announced bishoptl's services were no longer needed, but no more explanation than that from him.

I thought he simply said he no longer had admin duties which imo is quite different from 'services no longer needed'.

 

[Jonneh3003]

an all inclusive switch rpg thread just seems pointless. games that are out will have their own OT. games that aren't out get new threads for new news. what's left for a switch rpg thread?

I was speaking more generally on the act of port begging, I didn't check out the RPG thread but like you say there wasnt really much of a basis for it.

 

[ReaperXL7]

I love NeoGaf and it's my favorite website of all time...

But still....

This is the INTERNET... you gotta have strong skin and remember that almost every on the Internet is anonymous and that the tone of a comment can be totally weird and bizarre and harsh as hell sometimes.

And NeoGAF is largely a positive website that encourages discussion and not everybody is gonna like the same thing.

That's a phrase that's not very popular on Gaf.

I'd also argue that Neogaf is far more negative these days then it is Positive. You get some rays of sunshine every once in awhile, but there is a reason that many developers have stopped coming here completely. Saddest part is that the reason why so many get so mad in many threads is largely of their own doing since this place hypes itself into oblivion and then fly off the handle when whatever said thing doesn't deliver the exact thing people dream up in their imagination.

 

[Noobcraft]

He may have but I've read threads where he closed and told people that he was going to mow over the thread with a lawnmower and ban people. I didn't post in there but that still scared the living crap out of me. Dude had a little magic to him.

Every time I see the ending of Rogue One I think of Bish. That one scene could make an awesome banned.gif

 

[Audioboxer]

I didn't mean simply workplace abuses, it's about the economic system which makes those abuses inevitable. And also, I'm all for giving opinions on games, but it's the way that a lot of gamers take it personally, and so deal out personal abuse towards devs. It's not personal. Something just went wrong during the making of the game.

The idea that devs 'lie' in the personal, emotive sense that some gamers mean, is absolutely laughable. Tin foil hat stuff. The stupid exaggeration or macho hyping up that you occasionally see during the marketing of a game is fueled by publishers, platform holders and the aggressive nature of the industry, not by individual bad devs who just want to hoodwink 'consumers'.

Also, the stuff you said in your previous post: "In a realm where so much money is blown on marketing, vertical slices, careful demos, PR, previews/reviews and so on, consumers are often surrounded by a minefield of information"- that is to do with publishers and platform holders, and not the people who actually make games. We should be joining up with the people who make games to fight shit like this. Same goes with broken games etc. I'm pretty sure the instances of creative teams who had loads of resources and time and still messed up are far fewer than those of creative teams who were denied resources then forced to put out an incomplete game by their publisher.

"Devs" are human beings, not some magical unicorns. This is where some do need to toughen up in the industry they are in.

In many industries involving getting money out of wallets of consumers there are snakes in the grass. I didn't suggest this applies to all devs, in fact I didn't even quantify it. Even in the world of the dev/publisher relationship, the product is still the child of both. I think you'll find way more shit does get flung at publishers over devs anyway, but lets not bubble-wrap every dev because "how dare anyone suggest a human being can lie!". Fucking Randy Pitchford. To name names for one example.

Benefit of the doubt is handed out a lot, and people do back developers and try to work with them. Far more than anyone around here cares about a publisher. Look at how brutally subjected to shit EA and Ubisoft are. Nothing is absolutes, though, there are examples littered throughout the past 20 years of what you want to see. Most gamers do side with devs over publishers, but in justified examples where devs do get the heat you cannot just finger wag and say "nuh uh, this is aggressive consumers, unfair!".

 

[SpiceMelange]

I thought he simply said he no longer had admin duties which imo is quite different from 'services no longer needed'.

services (has an admin) no longer needed and no longer having duties as an admin seems pretty similar to me? I could search for the original post but it seems pretty in-line with the post intention imo.

 

[jett]

Imagine if Zack Snyder read GAF

 

[Charamiwa]

Uhm, Neil just recently mentioned how often he checks GAF ("I know it's probably unhealthy, but I can't help myself") in the interview with Horizon's managing director

Neil if you read me,

Spoiler

why no supernatural elements in Uncharted 4? The game was begging for a confrontation with the ghosts of dead pirates at the end. What the hell man

 

[Council Pop]

"Devs" are human beings, not some magical unicorns. This is where some do need to toughen up in the industry they are in.

yeeaaaahhh.. i kinda think we just have very different political views, so probably best to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[jjonez18]

A locked thread ulcer unlocked? Don't see that everyday.

Hope RIME is actually good. Neogaf can be a bit harsh.

 

[AstroNut325]

I think people forget that in all creative endeavors there is a personal investment that creates a very strong attachment to the creator.

People saying the developer shouldn't cry or take it personally are missing the fucking the point. If someone put tons of time, effort, and heart in a project, of course they're going to respond emotionally to criticism. People are human.

Moreover, this appears to the developers first big project. Developing a thick skin to criticism takes time. Jeez, people.

This is my stance as well. Still can't believe how hostile the gaming crowd is towards game creators.

 

[The Dude]

C'mon dude, that thread devolved into port begging and was centered around a singular console. I don't think any other console gets to do that as well - usually it's just JRPG thread No. 23.

It's just game talk to me man, I don't care what port begging is or whatever other made up classifications people want to give... It's not like a forum is limited In weekly threads or something. If a thread moves and people are talking I say great, if it dies and nobody is talking then oh well life goes on. I simply wanted a place to talk switch rpgs, jrpgs etc all in one thread and sure that means people mentioning games they would like to see, big whoop

 

[Audioboxer]

yeeaaaahhh.. i kinda think we just have very different political views, so probably best to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough, but I do want to ask, do you work in the industry and/or are you a dev (or have close friends in the industry)? Genuinely intrigued as clearly I'm arguing from a consumers perspective. You might be too, I just find it a rather perplexing hard stance for a consumer to take (the mixing/muddying the waters with the working conditions argument/be nicer to devs over publishers as a standard).

 

[raidenandsolid]

That's a phrase that's not very popular on Gaf.

I'd also argue that Neogaf is far more negative these days then it is Positive. You get some rays of sunshine every once in awhile, but there is a reason that many developers have stopped coming here completely. Saddest part is that the reason why so many get so mad in many threads is largely of their own doing since this place hypes itself into oblivion and then fly off the handle when whatever said thing doesn't deliver the exact thing people dream up in their imagination.

The negativity applies to OT side as well. It's like everyone is trying to find a reason to be more cynical about life rather than finding any sort of motivation to either do something about it or at the bare minimum "take what you can get". Nope let's plummet down the rabbit hole and see how far it goes.

 

[Netherscourge]

Too bad Donald Trump doesn't read NeoGaf Off- Topic.

lol

 

[WetWaffle]

This forum has definetly become more less...fun since my lurking days. Fewer developers posting(God help you if you made a game the common gaffer doesn't like, like RAD), emboldened racists/enablers, Near vitriol for specific developers/publishers, the fact that some posters post such toxic replies that it has actually droven users away, like shinobi, the guy who gave us the inside scoop on upcoming games out of the kindness of his heart, for the despicable crime of liking a game that frankly a vocal minority of GAF was gleeful to hate.

 

[TheSpoiler]

We've had Switch threads locked when discussing specific developers claiming they're bringing their games to the platform yet that Sega one for PC has been going for years. Port begging is odd as most of the time "I hope they bring this to Steam" is ok but "I hope they bring this to Switch" isn't. As long as the conversation is healthy and isn't aimlessly begging for exclusives that have no chance of coming to a platform I personally don't see a problem.

Because Sega actively expressed interest in bringing games to the PC.

And no, it's not okay. The Nioh to PC thread got bopped, and so did the Yakuza one.

The topic I included in my post devolved into literal port begging.

 

[Netherscourge]

Rime actually looks kinda cool.

Not sure why anyone would be knocking it? It's not even out for another month?

 

[Spaghetti]

I'd also argue that Neogaf is far more negative these days then it is Positive. You get some rays of sunshine every once in awhile, but there is a reason that many developers have stopped coming here completely. Saddest part is that the reason why so many get so mad in many threads is largely of their own doing since this place hypes itself into oblivion and then fly off the handle when whatever said thing doesn't deliver the exact thing people dream up in their imagination.

I get a similar impression, tbh. Although, I've seen it on other gaming communities to varying degrees. It's weird that a hobby that can illicit several levels of happiness and satisfaction is such a magnet for misanthropes. Maybe I'm just generalising.

I dunno if it's a video games thing, an internet thing, or just part of the human condition.

 

[kiaaa]

You're an adult. If you know you can't handle negativity, stay off the internet or put a person in place to filter out the relevant information/criticism. Do not spend two days pouring through two years of posts about your game and then blame it on the collective NeoGAF when you get your feelings hurt.

It's a problem with a lot of professionals that have an online presence. They glance past anything positive because, "of course I did a good job" and zero in on all the bad shit. Again, if your ego can't handle it, you shouldn't be reading public opinion.

 

[Jonneh3003]

Rime actually looks kinda cool.

Not sure why anyone would be knocking it? It's not even out for another month?

There were rumors so people overreacted rather than waiting to see how it was I guess. People just get caught up in the moment, I think it looks great too and I have it preordered.

 

[TetraGenesis]

Modbot got hot and everything changed.

 

[QisTopTier]

There were rumors so people overreacted rather than waiting to see how it was I guess. People just get caught up in the moment, I think it looks great too and I have it preordered.

People were riding BotW hype too and using that as fuel to blast the game

 

[TetraGenesis]

Too bad Donald Trump doesn't read NeoGaf Off- Topic.

lol

Alright, this got me. Hahahahaha.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

You're an adult. If you know you can't handle negativity, stay off the internet or put a person in place to filter out the relevant information/criticism. Do not spend two days pouring through two years of posts about your game and then blame it on the collective NeoGAF when you get your feelings hurt.

It's a problem with a lot of professionals that have an online presence. They glance past anything positive because, "of course I did a good job" and zero in on all the bad shit. Again, if your ego can't handle it, you shouldn't be reading public opinion.

or people could just try to not be assholes about things they have no part in and don't understand

 

[The Dude]

You're an adult. If you know you can't handle negativity, stay off the internet or put a person in place to filter out the relevant information/criticism. Do not spend two days pouring through two years of posts about your game and then blame it on the collective NeoGAF when you get your feelings hurt.

It's a problem with a lot of professionals that have an online presence. They glance past anything positive because, "of course I did a good job" and zero in on all the bad shit. Again, if your ego can't handle it, you shouldn't be reading public opinion.

That's making excuses for even the hateful obnoxious behavior, yes adults need to be adults but that doesn't give people the right to go ballistic and it be clumped in with simply learning how to take criticism. You can offer constructive criticism without being a completely obnoxious hater and that is the issue, not simply just handling negativity.

 

[shandy706]

Too bad Donald Trump doesn't read NeoGaf Off- Topic.

lol

LOL

I don't understand how people get upset over posts online though. I recommend staying away from forums/comment sections for those working on a project they personally "love".

People say some really hateful stuff on the internet. True hate gets a ban here though. Constructive criticism and criticism in general is allowed....as is praise.

 

[Jonneh3003]

People were riding BotW hype too and using that as fuel to blast the game

What do you mean? I haven't been following the Rime threads much as I'd rather go into the game blind. All I know is there were negative rumors floating around and we made a member of the team cry.

 

[Cranster]

But we're usually so nice

Have you even seen the Halo threads?

 

[lawnchair]

Sad. The real world is an ugly place.

is the internet the real world?

 

[DVCY201]

You're an adult. If you know you can't handle negativity, stay off the internet or put a person in place to filter out the relevant information/criticism. Do not spend two days pouring through two years of posts about your game and then blame it on the collective NeoGAF when you get your feelings hurt.

It's a problem with a lot of professionals that have an online presence. They glance past anything positive because, "of course I did a good job" and zero in on all the bad shit. Again, if your ego can't handle it, you shouldn't be reading public opinion.

So why can't adults post non-hyperbolic spiels of negativity about VIDEO GAMES? I love this hobby, but sometimes the posts here are crazy, like Nintendo killed your dog level of crazy.

It's one thing to be negative, and say it doesn't look appealing. It's another to say it looks like trash

 

[Freshmaker]

I think people forget that in all creative endeavors there is a personal investment that creates a very strong attachment to the creator.

People saying the developer shouldn't cry or take it personally are missing the fucking the point. If someone put tons of time, effort, and heart in a project, of course they're going to respond emotionally to criticism. People are human.

Moreover, this appears to the developers first big project. Developing a thick skin to criticism takes time. Jeez, people.

At some point you have to figure out what's worth listening to and what's not when you're operating in a creative field. Take what you can use and flush the rest because listening to all that noise will drive you crazy no matter how well intentioned it may be.

For example I designed a book cover for a client. She took that cover and went to a writer's group headed by a guy who advised among other things to pirate Photoshop do that they could take a design and "improve it". They were obsessed with the idea that a cover needed be a strong thumbnail so the group wanted to remove all cover elements but one thing.

At that point, I scrapped the cover entirely and just did whatever I wanted. It turned out far better than the crowd sourced feedback.

 

[shandy706]

Have you evem seen the Halo threads?

I've seen people personally insult a Halo (343) employee in a thread...heh.

 

[Vegetable Lasagna]

Assholes Telling Other People To Not Be Such Pussies: The Thread: The Movie: The Game.

And is it still going? It's still going! I'm an asshole, but I'm not oblivious to it either.

 

[And_Gignac]

I miss bishoptl. We need a no nonsense mod like that again.

Idk if his approach was the best. whatever happened to him btw?

 

[kiaaa]

or people could just try to not be assholes about things they have no part in and don't understand

People could try to be better people, yeah, but that pretty unrealistic.

That's making excuses for even the hateful obnoxious behavior, yes adults need to be adults but that doesn't give people the right to go ballistic and it be clumped in with simply learning how to take criticism. You can offer constructive criticism without being a completely obnoxious hater and that is the issue, not simply just handling negativity.

That's why I suggested a filter. The negativity isn't going to go away because that's kinda just how people are and it's magnified on the internet. I'm not going to make excuses for people being assholes because it isn't okay, but I also think developers should be capable of ignoring the posts that are straight up negative.

So why can't adults post non-hyperbolic spiels of negativity about VIDEO GAMES? I love this hobby, but sometimes the posts here are crazy, like Nintendo killed your dog level of crazy.

It's one thing to be negative, and say it doesn't look appealing. It's another to say it looks like trash

Because people can be assholes sometimes and hyperbole is useful for expressing strong opinions.

 

[Jonneh3003]

I've seen people personally insult a Halo (343) employee in a thread...heh.

Poor Stinkles.

 

[WetWaffle]

LOL

I don't understand how people get upset over posts online though. I recommend staying away from forums/comment sections for those working on a project they personally "love".

People say some really hateful stuff on the internet. True hate gets a ban here though. Constructive criticism and criticism in general is allowed....as is praise.

This is essentially what the first part of your post is.

 

[Furio53]

Yeah I try not to read any threads on games I've worked on. Generally we know the faults with the games, but when you work an insane amount on something for 2+ years it's very difficult to read some comments. The same goes for steam forums etc. as well. A lot of times the "constructive criticism" is ill informed and basically boils down to geez, why don't you just change this entire part of your game.

You have to have thick skin though.

 

[SpartanN92]

Lol Now just imagine what Michael Pachter does every time he reads gaf 😂😂😂

 

[megalowho]

I'm normally not one for self help advice but ever since I stumbled upon The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz, I've found it to be not only a simple guide for daily interactions but particularly appropriate when it comes to posting online. Considering where the conversation in this thread has led, perhaps others will find it helpful as well.

https://experiencelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/28-the-four-agreements.pdf

It boils down to the following:

1. Be impeccable with your word
2. Don't take anything personally
3. Don't make assumptions
4. Always do your best

Along with restrain from posting for the sake of posting, just keeping these points in the back of my head can be a valuable tool for navigating the internet (and GAF) in pitchforks and in hype.

 

[Not]

Too bad Donald Trump doesn't read NeoGaf Off- Topic.

lol

Imagining Donald Trump crying for 2 days after poring through Off-Topic threads is fantastic

 

[SpartanN92]

Poor Stinkles.

That beautiful bald bastard.

 

[TissueBox]

I wish more people would take my approach when it comes to the gaming side. I RARELY ever talk shit about something. Not because I'm afraid to voice my opinion but I just don't see any point to it. I just dislike being a parade shitter. Unless the thread is specifically to ask an opinion on somethings quality you will never see me do it. And even in those threads it'll be one comment.

It really doesn't take a whole lot of restraint either. Topic about a game I think sucks? I don't even care to click into it. Topic about a trailer to a hyped game? I'll give it a watch and skim some posts, if I didn't like it I'll quickly try to articulate my thoughts on it and leave it but more often than not I just hit back and continue onto something I like and want to talk about.

In OT I actually don't mind the shit slinging lol. I don't do it much but I don't mind it.

Yep yep

I mean, I won't lie, I drop pissers of my own on games from time to time. But if I posted a response to every thread and idea I would look like a pessimistic maverick compared to now so these days I just try to keep it positive, but that's also probably because I got lazy about debating a year or two ago lol. In a place like GAF spreading your focus is tough to do with consistent mindfulness, hence the more hivemind-esque hot takes coming to the surface. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it was three or five comments, but since there's thousands of posters here, yeah lol, devs reading through pages and pages of crticism both constructive and candid alike may not be healthy. In that case, to avoid tears -- don't read [all] the comments! Balance the positive with the negative. Even if your game really deserves some criticism, it doesn't help if you're not in the state to listen to them. So don't let the buzz destroy you -- prove us wrong, and remember there are folks in here who would gladly be proven as such, even if they're overshadowed by the rest.

On the other hand, on GAF's part, it is tough to manage opinions on such a wide scale, indeed. That said, I do believe GAFfers should refrain from being acidic if it's only because it's easier than being insightful. It's important to remember that this is a very, very public and influential forum. Can't help some people getting hurt over negative opinions, that's collateral, but as long as too much of GAF doesn't become too icy just for the sake of it then I think it'll be as alright as it can afford to be for now. In the end I think gaming discussion still has a way to go 'til it reaches a good balance of critique + honesty + sophistication + rapport and in good fraction. I was one of those that really disliked most of the piling on NMS, for instance; it just felt relentless. I get it, I do, but it felt too much like an arm for a tooth.

Still, this community like any has many sides and faces. As long as there's room for more, or even growth, then it's not all bad.