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RogueGAF: Die, succeed, die again, repeat

M

More_Badass

Member
Wanted to make a GAF thread dedicated to the Roguelike genre.

For discussing the elements that make genre so thrilling. Sharing our stories of crushing defeat, tension, and thrilling success. Discussing old, new, and upcoming roguelikes and rogue-lites on console, PC, and mobile

My first roguelike-esque game was Demon's Souls. Before DS, I never touched difficult games or even attempted hard difficulties. But reading the amazing player stories about the survival horror atmosphere and tales of desperation, I took the plunge and got Demons' Souls. The levels may not be randomly generated or have permadeath, but the game introduced me to other roguelike elements: fearing death around every corner, the sense of always being at a disadvantage, the need to play cautious and careful to survive. Dark Souls was an easy buy after that. If it weren't for those games, I wouldn't even have tried games like Super Meat Boy or Super Hexagon

Now roguelikes are one of my favorite kinds of games after stealth and physics platformers. The randomness, always being on your toes, not knowing if what lie around the corner or behind that door is supplies or a weapon or a horde of enemies. The fear of being low on everything and running into a dangerous situation and the thrill of overcoming that situation (or not)

Currently I'm playing Teleglitch: Die More Edition on Steam. After reading nothing but praise on NeoGAF, I tried the demo and it was so good that I bought the game right after. Love the art style and the distortion when you fire your weapon, the weapons sound and feel powerful, the tension is palpable

I finally made it to Level 2. And then I died.

It may not have Crysis-level graphics, but what matters is the gameplay. The tension of the unknown, the joy of finding a new gun or a medkit, the fear when you're low on health and ammo, is fantastic. When you enter a room armed with only two shotgun rounds, 25 health, and one explosive, and a horde of mutants and zombies rush out of the area where you can't see and you just turn and flee the other way...it's worth every penny

I think that's what I like about most about roguelikes. Unlike other genres, where you are basically unstoppable, or even stealth, where you outsmart and outmanuever the enemy, roguelikes are unique because half the time all you can is fucking run and hope for the best.

You're always at a disadvantage. Every weapon, every piece of equipment counts. Every decision is life or death

I love roguelikes. What about you?
 
For a while I was living off Binding of Isaac, then Dungeons of Dredmor. FTL also had its hooks in me.

If you count Demon Souls then Dark Souls also has gotten to me. Don't think I'm much of a completionist when it comes to roguelikes, or maybe that just proves I'm actually bad at games because I can't simply press A to be awesome.

Rogue Legacy looks fantastic as well, meaning to grab that, though I might want to come back to DS first.
 
#TeamAngband here. I've probably played more hours of Angband (some vanilla, some NPP) than any other game except for the original Everquest. I even managed to defeat Morgoth - once.

Normally, I hate the idea of having to redo work that I've previously done. I stopped playing Fallout 3 entirely after running into a game breaking bug that only caused me to lose 90 minutes of progress. However, I've lost characters in Angband with 15+ hours of game time and never even batted an eye; I just roll his successor and jump right back in.
 
Rogue Legacy is the first thing that pops up in my mind when someone mentions Rogue-like games.

It's just so great. A throw-back to the old school genre. I just love the randomized dungeons. It goes from frustrating and annoying to man this is so easy. But it's a toss-up, this uncertainty is what makes it so great. I always think to myself what will the next dungeon/castle/etc... look like, will it be balls to the wall hard or a push over.

The randomness of each entry makes for some hilarious and sometimes sweet moves - dodging 6 eyes in a room, with those little floating wizards throwing fireballs. Some of the rooms get crazy. I love that it's hard, so many games just hold your hand making it a cake walk, this actually manages to frustrate you - in a good way.

This along with so many others, such as Binding of Isaac, definitely have revitalized the rogue genre. They have offered unique takes and have come out successful, too many publishers go with the "casual"/easy route. I think there are a lot of people that yearn for a real challenge to differentiate themselves from the monotonous difficulty that many games have brought on as the norm.
 
KittenMaster said:
Nethack dude here. I can never get past floor 10 or so with any class though.
Click to expand...
I have played FTL and perhaps a few other roguelikes. I most recently tried Sword of the Stars: The Pit, which seems okay, if a bit bare in places.

Nethack remains my favorite roguelike, with the crazy amount of stuff you memorize. I only ever ascended once, I think with an archeologist of all things, on a version one or two behind the latest, ported to this device so I was playing like, with my thumbs on this little screen:

makolinuxdxlit.jpg


I just used the built-in OS rather than trying to run Linux though. As for other characters, I think I typically had the most initial success with barbarian, and I probably tended to play elven wizards a lot and got to the elemental planes a few times with them. But all the way? Only that one time with the noble archeologist.
 
Blizzard said:
Nethack remains my favorite roguelike, with the crazy amount of stuff you memorize. I only ever ascended once, I think with an archeologist of all things, on a version one or two behind the latest, ported to this device so I was playing like, with my thumbs on this little screen:

makolinuxdxlit.jpg


I just used the built-in OS rather than trying to run Linux though. As for other characters, I think I typically had the most initial success with barbarian, and I probably tended to play elven wizards a lot and got to the elemental planes a few times with them. But all the way? Only that one time with the noble archeologist.
Click to expand...
That looks like a great device to play nethack on. I have it on a tablet and smart phone but the built-in keyboards make selecting certain commands awkward despite the great use of touch screen.

Ranger is probably my favorite class overall, with Caveman being my favorite "smash faces" class. I don't know why, Caveman just seems so underrepresented.
 
I like a good graphical roguelike, but I don't care for ASCII ones. Stuff like Shiren the Wanderer and Spelunky are just good fun. I can't wait for the Vita verison of the later cuz it'll be perfect on the go. I need to get FTL too, I liked what I saw.
 
I only ever played FTL, but I just don't get the appeal of this genre. It blows my mind when I see Steam friends with like 80 hours logged in to Binding of Isaac or whatever.

People say that the lack of saving and permadeath increases their sense of accomplishment when they succeed. But how can you really feel that accomplished when more often than not you were just lucky to get the right drops and dungeon layout? And it doesn't bother you that you have to repeat the boring early parts of a game every single time you die? Or that one screw-up ruins a perfectly good run?

To me it just seems like intentional masochism for people that have a shitload of time to burn.
 
Smash88 said:
Rogue Legacy is the first thing that pops up in my mind when someone mentions Rogue-like games.

It's just so great. A throw-back to the old school genre. I just love the randomized dungeons. It goes from frustrating and annoying to man this is so easy. But it's a toss-up, this uncertainty is what makes it so great. I always think to myself what will the next dungeon/castle/etc... look like, will it be balls to the wall hard or a push over.

The randomness of each entry makes for some hilarious and sometimes sweet moves - dodging 6 eyes in a room, with those little floating wizards throwing fireballs. Some of the rooms get crazy. I love that it's hard, so many games just hold your hand making it a cake walk, this actually manages to frustrate you - in a good way.

This along with so many others, such as Binding of Isaac, definitely have revitalized the rogue genre. They have offered unique takes and have come out successful, too many publishers go with the "casual"/easy route. I think there are a lot of people that yearn for a real challenge to differentiate themselves from the monotonous difficulty that many games have brought on as the norm.
Click to expand...

Having played through Rogue Legacy twice, I don't really consider it a roguelike. The inclusion of permanent progress as such a central element turns it into more of a grinding game than a roguelike. I know some traditional roguelikes have item unlocks that you can pick from the beginning after completing objectives, but Rogue Legacy is just super grindy in nature, so much that I'd lump it in with something like 10,000,000 rather than Roguelikes.

Binding of Isaac, however, definitely qualifies.

Another fairly recent example I enjoy is Hack, Slash, Loot. It's turn-based and pretty traditional, but has a number of different dungeons to be completed which keep it interesting. Each dungeon has its own story, different enemies, etc. They're all pretty short, so it's great for burst play.
 
I'm currently playing Tales of Maj'Eyal (ToME) and I loving it. Runs on my mb air too which makes my night shifts so much easier : )

Also recommended: Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup and ADOM
 
border said:
I only ever played FTL, but I just don't get the appeal of this genre. It blows my mind when I see Steam friends with like 80 hours logged in to Binding of Isaac or whatever.

People say that the lack of saving and permadeath increases their sense of accomplishment when they succeed. But how can you really feel that accomplished when more often than not you were just lucky to get the right drops and dungeon layout? And it doesn't bother you that you have to repeat the boring early parts of a game every single time you die? Or that one screw-up ruins a perfectly good run?

To me it just seems like intentional masochism for people that have a shitload of time to burn.
Click to expand...

A key thing about a good Roguelike is that even though they're hard, they're not unfair. NetHack and Shiren the Wanderer for example have elements that emphasis careful planning. Almost nothing is inescapable if you planned ahead right and stored the right items.

You can see a real good example of this right here. While the player does fall victim to luck sometimes, he finishes the game mostly off good planning.
 
Recommended and Upcoming Roguelikes and Rogue-lites by Platform

Console
  • Demons' Souls/ Dark Souls
  • State of Decay
  • Tokyo Jungle
  • Dungeons of Desolation

PC
  • Rogue
  • Teleglitch
  • Binding of Isaac
  • Don't Starve
  • FTL
  • Rogue Legacy
  • Red Rogue
  • Receiver
  • Spelunky
  • Project Zomboid
  • Sword Of The Stars – The Pit
  • 99 Levels to Hell
  • Super House of Dead Ninjas
  • Elona
  • Hack, Slash, Loot
  • Tales of Maj'Eyal
  • Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup
  • Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM)
  • Legend of Dungeon
  • ...and many many others

Mobile
  • bit Dungeon
  • Solomon's Keep
  • Cavern
  • Ending
  • Endless Depths
  • WazHack
  • 100 Rogues
  • Dungeonism
  • Monster Adventures - upcoming
  • Wayward Saga - upcoming
  • Shiren the Wanderer (DS)

As you can see, I couldn't think of many roguelikes for console and PC has too many to count. So please recommend any ones that I missed or hidden gems and I'll add them to the list
 
I'm quite addicted to Super House of Dead Ninjas. It's an awesome platformer featuring roguelike elements that everybody should try (there is a free version online I think).
 
I'd say there's a thin line between a roguelike and what I'd consider a rogue-lite

Spelunky or Teleglitch are roguelikes. Permadeath, randomly generated levels, sparse supplies, hard as hell

The Souls games would be rogue-lites. No permadeath, no randomly generated levels, but they're hard, punish you severely for playing rashly, force you to be slow and careful, you're always at a disadvantage. They have roguelike elements.

I'd say that permadeath and randomly generated levels are the main elements that separate the two.
 
More_Badass said:
I'd say there's a thin line between a roguelike and what I'd consider a rogue-lite

Spelunky or Teleglitch are roguelikes. Permadeath, randomly generated levels, sparse supplies, hard as hell

The Souls games would be rogue-lites. No permadeath, no randomly generated levels, but they're hard, punish you severely for playing rashly, force you to be slow and careful, you're always at a disadvantage. They have roguelike elements.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they have elements, but once you put a checkpoint or the ability to save a game, you're completely out of the roguelike genre. Being hard isn't enough.
 
Sophia said:
A key thing about a good Roguelike is that even though they're hard, they're not unfair. NetHack and Shiren the Wanderer for example have elements that emphasis careful planning. Almost nothing is inescapable if you planned ahead right and stored the right items.
Click to expand...

You can plan as much as you want, but if you don't get the gear that lets you execute the plan then it doesn't matter.

Maybe I'm just maybe drawing too many conclusions about the genre from my experiences with FTL. A lot of times there it felt like you'd get screwed over by environmental hazards that you couldn't see or anticipate. And a lot of times I just had poor runs because I didn't get the drops I needed or the vendors didn't have any good weapons/add-ons. Sometimes early drops/purchases would push you towards spec'ing your ship towards a particular style (missiles, beams, lasers, or boarding).....but then in the later levels you wouldn't find any items that were upgrades for the spec you were going for. Not to mention that the final boss was so narrowly designed that you were often just shit out of luck if you didn't spec yourself for it. Part of the reason the boarding was so OP in that game was because all you needed was a teleporter and a couple good crew members....you never had to worry if your ship could acquire gear good enough to stand against more powerful late-game enemies.

I didn't put anywhere near as much time into Binding of Isaac, but in that game it also felt you were dependent on randomly getting good drops and purchases.
 
More_Badass said:
Currently I'm playing Teleglitch: Die More Edition on Steam. After reading nothing but praise on NeoGAF, I tried the demo and it was so good that I bought the game right after. Love the art style and the distortion when you fire your weapon, the weapons sound and feel powerful, the tension is palpable
Click to expand...

I can't seem to get the hang of aiming with the mouse in Teleglitch; it's like my brain tries to map 3D onto 2D. I think it'd be a lot more enjoyable if you could aim with the arrow keys. The main problem I have with the graphics is that it's hard to quickly identify enemy types.

I don't really consider Teleglitch to be a true rogue though, as the level design is fixed.
 
eyeball_kid said:
I can't seem to get the hang of aiming with the mouse in Teleglitch; it's like my brain tries to map 3D onto 2D. I think it'd be a lot more enjoyable if you could aim with the arrow keys. The main problem I have with the graphics is that it's hard to quickly identify enemy types.

I don't really consider Teleglitch to be a true rogue though, as the level design is fixed.
Click to expand...
Well the rooms are the same, but they're randomly mixed around every time you die and start. So you never know what is behind the next door or can learn the layout of the level

And I felt the same way. When I played the demo, my combat skills couldn't be assessed in the tutorial because my aiming was so bad in the target area. But after 4 hours in, I feel my skills have improved. I hit most of the time (or miss less) and I'm much better at tracking an enemy and adjusting my aim
 
More_Badass said:
The Souls games would be rogue-lites. No permadeath, no randomly generated levels, but they're hard, punish you severely for playing rashly, force you to be slow and careful, you're always at a disadvantage. They have roguelike elements.
Click to expand...

Going by that logic, stuff like Super Mario 64 has roguelike elements.
 
Brashnir said:
Having played through Rogue Legacy twice, I don't really consider it a roguelike. The inclusion of permanent progress as such a central element turns it into more of a grinding game than a roguelike. I know some traditional roguelikes have item unlocks that you can pick from the beginning after completing objectives, but Rogue Legacy is just super grindy in nature, so much that I'd lump it in with something like 10,000,000 rather than Roguelikes.

Binding of Isaac, however, definitely qualifies.

Another fairly recent example I enjoy is Hack, Slash, Loot. It's turn-based and pretty traditional, but has a number of different dungeons to be completed which keep it interesting. Each dungeon has its own story, different enemies, etc. They're all pretty short, so it's great for burst play.
Click to expand...

I can see how you may be looking at this, but doesn't Binding of Isaac have an upgradeable aspect as well. Maybe not as prominent as in Rogue Legacy, but it is definitely there. There is even a game altering starting item that you acquire permanent access to, the dice roll item. Not to mention you unlock better and better items, it is of course random if those items will drop, but they become available.Maybe it's not passively there, but some of those BoI items - such as Dr. Fetus - can literally make or break the game. What I mean by that is it becomes 100 times easier with those items being accessible.
 
More_Badass said:
Recommended and Upcoming Roguelikes and Rogue-lites by Platform

Console
  • Demons' Souls/ Dark Souls
  • State of Decay
  • Tokyo Jungle
  • Dungeons of Desolation

PC
  • Rogue
  • Teleglitch
  • Binding of Isaac
  • Don't Starve
  • FTL
  • Rogue Legacy
  • Red Rogue
  • Receiver
  • Spelunky
  • Project Zomboid
  • Sword Of The Stars – The Pit
  • 99 Levels to Hell
  • Super House of Dead Ninjas
  • ...and many many others

Mobile
  • bit Dungeon
  • Solomon's Keep
  • Cavern
  • Ending
  • Endless Depths
  • WazHack
  • 100 Rogues
  • Dungeonism
  • Monster Adventures - upcoming
  • Wayward Saga - upcoming

As you can see, I couldn't think of many roguelikes for console and PC has too many to count. So please recommend any ones that I missed or hidden gems and I'll add them to the list
Click to expand...

Wow, what an awesome list. Thank you for listing bit Dungeon, I just bought it for my S3 and it's damn good. Are there any more Rogue Likes for Android on that list?

I love this genre.
 
Tenrius said:
Going by that logic, stuff like Super Mario 64 has roguelike elements.
Click to expand...
True. I guess I just have a very high opinion of the games because they made such an impression on me (as seen by complete 180 from hating difficult games to loving roguelikes). I think they're definitely great games for introducing newcomers to the mindset needed to play and enjoy rogues, as well as certain gameplay aspects that I mentioned.
 
FairXchange said:
Wow, what an awesome list. Thank you for listing bit Dungeon, I just bought it for my S3 and it's damn good. Are there any more Rogue Likes for Android on that list?

I love this genre.
Click to expand...
I only have IOS devices so I'm not sure, sorry. There are probably Android owners here who might know.

And please if there are any Android exclusive roguelikes, please list them. I got the IOS side of mobile covered
 
border said:
I only ever played FTL, but I just don't get the appeal of this genre. It blows my mind when I see Steam friends with like 80 hours logged in to Binding of Isaac or whatever.

People say that the lack of saving and permadeath increases their sense of accomplishment when they succeed. But how can you really feel that accomplished when more often than not you were just lucky to get the right drops and dungeon layout? And it doesn't bother you that you have to repeat the boring early parts of a game every single time you die? Or that one screw-up ruins a perfectly good run?

To me it just seems like intentional masochism for people that have a shitload of time to burn.
Click to expand...
It's not masochism, it's just fun when a game isn't designed with the pretense that you'll win it. It brings on a different mindset to the game, where I'm not examining areas with developer intent in mind and just winging it as I know the game has it out for me. The early areas shouldn't be boring because of the randomized elements and the possibility of swift death around every corner; I'm not building up to the interesting parts, it's there all along.

To use your example of Binding of Isaac, there's a range of difficulty between runs based on map layouts and item finds, but it doesn't make me feel that the times I do win are thanks to being lucky, but that I should be on my A-game when things aren't in my favour. It gives the games a sense of improvisation, that I'll just try to work with what I've got the best I can. If I ever did feel a game just came down to luck of the draw, I wouldn't find it holding my interest for very long, but that hasn't been the case.
 
Dwarf Fortress AFAIK is a simulation game, kind of like SimCity and whatnot but with ASCII graphics, but doesn't it have a Roguelike mode on the side?
 
Dungeons of Dredmor is probably my favorite one of the past decade or so. What a fantastic game. Caddishness score through the roof. Go buy it if you haven't yet, it runs on pretty much everything more powerful than your toaster.
 
border said:
I only ever played FTL, but I just don't get the appeal of this genre. It blows my mind when I see Steam friends with like 80 hours logged in to Binding of Isaac or whatever.

People say that the lack of saving and permadeath increases their sense of accomplishment when they succeed. But how can you really feel that accomplished when more often than not you were just lucky to get the right drops and dungeon layout? And it doesn't bother you that you have to repeat the boring early parts of a game every single time you die? Or that one screw-up ruins a perfectly good run?

To me it just seems like intentional masochism for people that have a shitload of time to burn.
Click to expand...

As ricken said, the appeal is that victory is never assured. You go in expecting defeat, so every victory, no matter how small, feels like an incredible success. Progress isn't reaching the next checkpoint or seeing an level-end cutscene; it's seeing your skills as a player improve and surviving longer. You can't rely on some scripted weapon placement or easy areas when you start; so every moment you survive a bit longer is a moment earned through you getting better at the game and maybe some luck.

IMO, I don't think FTL was the best introduction to the genre.
 
More_Badass said:
IMO, I don't think FTL was the best introduction to the genre.
Click to expand...

Definitely not. FTL is pretty hard from what I've seen of it. I am still a firm believer that the original Shiren the Wanderer is the best introduction. Used copies it for the DS aren't too expensive either.
 
Rickenslacker said:
It gives the games a sense of improvisation, that I'll just try to work with what I've got the best I can. If I ever did feel a game just came down to luck of the draw, I wouldn't find it holding my interest for very long, but that hasn't been the case.
Click to expand...

I'm coming from an admittedly small pool of experience, but I've come to view roguelikes the same way I view the game of Solitaire. When you deal out the cards for a game of Solitaire, some games are inherently, mathematically impossible to win from the very start. The cards just end up positioned in a way that you cannot win. That doesn't mean that the game is all about the luck of the draw, but it means you can devote an inordinate amount of time to a game session that is unwinnable, even if you are playing at your best. Many people that play computer Solitaire will re-shuffle the deck and re-start the game until they get a more favorable deal. You can't really do that in a roguelike since when you start playing it's difficult to tell how favorable of a situation you've gone into when you start.

I suppose it just tends to bother me that I can sink a great deal of time into a play session that was doomed from the very first moment -- particularly when I feel I'm not getting the drops/gear that I need.

Maybe FTL was not the best place to start, since it doesn't have that "death is around every corner" danger in the early game. Once you've learned the mechanics you aren't going to die in the first 3-4 sectors unless you majorly fuck up. And all those early battles are relatively dull exercises in waiting for your cooldowns to expire.
 
Smash88 said:
I can see how you may be looking at this, but doesn't Binding of Isaac have an upgradeable aspect as well. Maybe not as prominent as in Rogue Legacy, but it is definitely there. There is even a game altering starting item that you acquire permanent access to, the dice roll item. Not to mention you unlock better and better items, it is of course random if those items will drop, but they become available.Maybe it's not passively there, but some of those BoI items - such as Dr. Fetus - can literally make or break the game. What I mean by that is it becomes 100 times easier with those items being accessible.
Click to expand...

I think a handful of random drop items and even a chance to choose from a handful of items pre start is a far cry from how Rogue Legacy works. If Rogue Legacy had only the Blacksmith (and additional classes) for upgrades, I might count it, but the extensive permanent skill tree moves it out of the category for me.

I mean, I love the game, and I believe the concept started with Rogue as a kernel of the original idea, but what it became is just too far from the tree to qualify.
 
Sophia said:
Definitely not. FTL is pretty hard from what I've seen of it. I am still a firm believer that the original Shiren the Wanderer is the best introduction. Used copies it for the DS aren't too expensive either.
Click to expand...

Shiren is a fantastic game. Dungeons of Dredmor is a good introduction for those that lack a DS as it has difficulty settings and the ability to turn off permadeath while you're learning.
 
Wallach said:
Dungeons of Dredmor is a good introduction for those that lack a DS as it has difficulty settings and the ability to turn off permadeath while you're learning.
Click to expand...

I think I like the sound of that. My major gripe about FTL was that the permadeath aspect prevented you from taking risks, experimenting, and learning important strategies You could play dozens of hours and still be ignorant of major, important game elements because you either chose to play it safe or didn't get the drops necessary to exploit and succeed with useful equipment specs.
 
animlboogy said:
I like standard roguelikes, and I like action roguelites. But come on, we can't pretend they're the same genre. It's like saying Axis and Allies and Starcraft are the same genre.
Click to expand...
Old school roguelikes are kind of before my time (I'm only 21, first console was a PS1).

Are turned based mechanics really essential to the roguelike design? I've only ever played roguelikes like Teleglitch and Isaac (aka not turn based) as I didn't really see that as a requirement for a roguelike. Really I think the permadeath and randomized levels are the defining elements, but it could be a generational thing.
 
Team FTL checking in! My most played game on Steam, though Warband is starting to slowly catch up. As for Binding of Isaac, I just can't seem to get into it.
 
alstein said:
Has Elona even been updated in the past couple of years- thought it was finished.
Click to expand...
The creator has stopped updating, yeah, but the game is still great where its at.
Theres a project going on right now to port the engine and continue the work but it doesn't seem like its gotten anywhere.
There are also a good deal of Elona mods out there.
 
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