I originally wanted to make a thread about this movie this week but ended up making that MoS thread instead. That said, let's talk about TDKR for the trillionth time. GAF, I fucking LOVE this film. I literally cannot understand why people think that the film can be considered in anyway bad. I can somewhat understand people feeling somewhat disappointed or let down since it was following one of the greatest movies ever made but to call the movie bad just doesn't register with me. I'm hoping to have a good discussion about this film so don;t just drop in with nonsense like "I hated it" or "How did Batman get back into the city" explain why you dislike the film if you do. I am going to start by breaking down all the things I love about the film and everything that I think is wrong with with the film.
PROS:
Bruce Wayne, a Depressed, Recluse.
The one thing that people seem to forget when portraying Batman in any type of medium is actually making Bruce Wayne a compelling character. In the Nolan trilogy you actually feel this, especially so with TDKR. This is truly a story about Bruce Wayne and not the villain of the day. We start the story off and Bruce is a complete mess following the events of TDK. Rachel, the only person he thought he could make a life with has been murdered. Batman, the outlet for his rage, has been taken from him, sacrificed in order to clean up Gotham. And, off screen, his venture to use Bruce Wayne to aid Gotham through his renewable energy project has "failed." As a result, he's turned into a bit of a recluse retreating further and further away from the world. One small thing people like to criticize about the movie is why Bruce would have built a brand new Batcave when Batman was ostensibly finished after the events of TDK. First, Wayne Manor (and we can assume the Batcave) was being rebuilt while TDK was going on. But second, you can totally believe that reclusive Bruce Wayne decided to rebuild the whole thing on his own as an outlet for his obsession. I can just picture him spending nights in the Batcave looking over police reports and unsolved crimes, waiting for some excuse that would allow him to put back on the cowl. This is a man consumed by his tragedy and wants it all to end.
Thus, when he finally puts back on the cape and cowl you can see how badly he has wanted to do this, he's just finally found an excuse good enough. I especially love how Batman just shows up, unannounced, without any sort of fanfare. In the end, we get to see Bruce learn and grow as a character, he learns to become Batman again, and the learns hot to let Batman go. Everything with Bruce Wayne is Aces.
Alfred
Again, this is another character that I feel gets shafted in a lot of other mediums but not in the Nolan trilogy. Often, Alfred is just this passive figure that essentially allows Bruce to continue to be Batman without any sort of real objection. He'll make a sarcastic quip or note some form of disapproval but in the end he always caves and supports Master Wayne, how the hell such a "beta" person was able to raise someone like Bruce boggles my mind. But, in the TDK trilogy he's actually portrayed as a real person that cares about Bruce and wants him to move past his Batman identity. In the TDKR he's constantly trying to push Bruce to get back into the world. After Selina steals Bruce's, Mother's pearls he jokes about setting him up with her, to which Bruce replies "So now you're trying to set me up with a jewel thief?" Thus, you get the impression that Alfred has been trying in vain for years to get Bruce to move on past all his tragedy and meet someone. Finally, Alfred reaches his limit and decides to leave Bruce rather than fuel his death wish any longer. It's great stuff, the only disappointment is that he doesn't get to do much of anything after leaving.
The Direct Challenge to the End of TDK
In the end, the film presents the idea that true progress can only be built upon the truth because no matter how well you conceal a secret or lie it will always find its way to the light. Only by facing the bitter truth about Harvey Dent and the Batman, only by rising up and saving the city themselves could Gotham move on. The people were willing to let Batman clean up the streets because it meant they themselves didn't have to get their hands dirty or put themselves at risk. It's also why I love that final exchange between Gordon and Foley, who has tucked his tail and hid in his home. Foley is hoping/expecting the government or someone else to swoop in and save them but as Gordon says "This only gets fixed from the inside." I felt like that's such a powerful line that translates so easily into our real world.
I only want to briefly point out that this countering of themes is brought out in Talia al Ghul, the concept of whom I also really like. She's the representation of the old adage that "If you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back." She's not the mirror opposite of Bruce, she IS Bruce but taken to his logical and extreme end point. She too is an individual consumed by her own personal tragedy and need for revenge. She so driven by her goal to see "justice" done that she is willing to kill herself along with all of her victims in her plot. I think realizing who and what Talia truly was is what allowed Bruce to finally move on at the end, he realized he didn't want to be her.
Occupy Gotham
Continuing off that point I also love the idea of Gotham being occupied and under siege. I enjoyed the sort of revolutionary atmosphere the story was being framed as. When Batman burns the Bat Symbol on the bridge and says it's time to go to War I cream my pants every time.
It Concludes The Trilogy!
This is something that I just absolutely adore about the movie, it fucking concludes the story it began from Batman Begins. Batman is a trademarked, mega-popular franchise that will probably never go away. Due to this fact Batman stories rarely every conclude, their is usually some cliffhanger or Batman continues to be Batman with a setup for another potential story. TDKR actually concludes it's trilogy and Nolan completes his arc for the character of Bruce Wayne. Now, others can debate whether or not they enjoy Bruce's arc, I for one enjoy it, but I like the fact that it definitively closes out the trilogy. A bad example would be the conclusion to the Arkham "trilogy" which is by no means a conclusion. In my opinion, I do like the fact that Bruce Wayne gets a happy ending, call me a romantic. I like that he is finally able to move past Batman and make a new life for himself, although it does require him to "kill" Bruce Wayne. Again, I love the ending bit and that it actually shows Bruce Wayne and doesn't just end with Alfred smiling. To the small percentage of people who think that's how it should have ended you clearly don't understand how to conclude a story. This isn't Inception, the conclusion to the TDK trilogy demands certainty not ambiguity, either Bruce is alive and well or dead in the water.
The Rest of the Pros:
-Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. And, the acting of pretty much the whole cast.
-Also Catwoman getting his mother's pearls in the end.
-GOAT tier soundtrack
-Fight sequences, the fight scenes are definitely a step up from all the previous movies though their nothing near approaching great fight scenes.
-Batman's reemergence and chase sequence.
-The final chase sequence.
-"For you."
CONS:
It's Just Too Big. Payoffs with No Setup
I think the most of my complaints with the movie can come from one big criticism, the movie is too big. This of course is odd from a movie that is almost three hours long, you would think they had all the time in the world to tell their story, but they don't. TDKR suffers from trying to tell too many stories and portray so many themes. You've got the central story of Bruce Wayne but then you've got the occupation of Gotham, the rise of Robin, the story of Bane/Talia, Dagget Enterprises, Catwoman, Gordon and Foley, etc. There just isn't enough time to tell all of these stories completely. In fact, one of my biggest pros about the movie turns into a con by the end becaue of the time constraints, I'm talking about teh occupation of Gotham. We're told it'll take around two months for the bomb to explode in Gotham, then all of a sudden it's something like two weeks, then by literally the next scene it is suddenly 24 hours so we can have a ticking time bomb scenario.
The time skips within Gotham City means you don't really get enough time to experience Occupied Gotham, in fact the majority of the "revolution" is confined to one out of focus montage. It's literally Catwoman/Bane montage, Special Forces arrive and die, and then Gordon gets captured and Batman's back. We hardly get the change to truly feel like a citizen trapped in Gotham trying to survive while a police force slowly but desperately tries to fight back.
The result is that the movie feels less like this beautifully and intricately put together and more of a scattershot of big ideas and stories that while great are not executed as well and completely as they should be. If you look at TDK everything in that movie is intricately tied together, their isn't a lot of fat to the movie or parts that appear out of nowhere. Almost everything is setup and paid off later. Lucious introduces Wayne to new gadgets like ejectable gauntlets, these are used to take down the Joker. "C4" gun is used to enter LSI holdings, is later used to fight Joker's crew and the SWAT. Sonar phone is used to map LSI, Sonar phones on larger scale are later used to find Joker. Alfred tells Bruce that Batman can be the "outcast" to make the choice no one else can, Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent. I can go on and on, you get the point.
In TDKR, events often take place that have very little setup or none at all. Batman comes out of retirement with EMP gun, gets shot, is never seen again. His EMP generator is poorly introduced early on to stop those annoying paparazzi, is later used against Bane, fails, is never seen again. Batman gets magic device that "heals" his leg, it's never explained where he got this or why it works, is never seen again after getting his ass whooped by Bane. Batman uses sleep darts to take out Bane's crew, this device is never shown before or after its use. Batman uses Fire Bat Signal to incite the populace, it's never actually setup how he does this or that he saw Blake's drawings and thus realized the need for the symbol. Batman walks on thin ice, this one actually doesn't need setup (it was setup in BB) but a friendly or even joking reminder would have been nice. Gordon asking, "why aren't you sinking?" Batman responds, "I've had practice." You get the point.
Again, compare this to the ending of TDK. You got Batman using Sonar to find the Joker, the idea of which he stole from Lucius' concept earlier in the film and actually sets up later on when he tells Lucius "he's playing this one close to the chest." We follow up with the assault on the Joker building we're Batman uses his Sonar vision and Explosive Gel gun to take down the thugs and SWAT. Ultimately, this culminates in a fight with Joker where he is attacked by dogs, "...will it protect against dogs? We talking Rottweilers or Chihuahuas? Should do fine against cats." Where Batman eventually gets the upper hand by shooting Joker with his ejectable gauntlets setup near the beginning.
All in all, TDKR is just as not as well put together as TDK due to the fact that it wants to tell so much.
Remaining Cons:
-Batman in the Day, it just doesn't work.
-The decrease in humor.
-Bane is hard to hear a times.
-Marion Cotillard is HORRIBLY cast as Talia al Ghul. Worst. Death. Scene. Ever.
-Never liked the Atomic Bomb plot point even though I recognize that it's needed to hold the city hostage. Doubly hate that it actually explodes. Gotham is still going to get radioactive winds for years to come.
-Showing Alfred's "dream" initially, from that moment you knew how the movie would end. It would have been better to just let him describe it to Bruce without cutting away to a flashback thus allowing for more surprise with the ending.
-"Where's the triggaarrr!! argghhhhhhhhh"
Wow, I wrote a lot but screw it I love this movie and don't care if you don't read it all.
TL;DR TDKR is a great movie whose only fault is being too big for it's own good.
PROS:
Bruce Wayne, a Depressed, Recluse.
The one thing that people seem to forget when portraying Batman in any type of medium is actually making Bruce Wayne a compelling character. In the Nolan trilogy you actually feel this, especially so with TDKR. This is truly a story about Bruce Wayne and not the villain of the day. We start the story off and Bruce is a complete mess following the events of TDK. Rachel, the only person he thought he could make a life with has been murdered. Batman, the outlet for his rage, has been taken from him, sacrificed in order to clean up Gotham. And, off screen, his venture to use Bruce Wayne to aid Gotham through his renewable energy project has "failed." As a result, he's turned into a bit of a recluse retreating further and further away from the world. One small thing people like to criticize about the movie is why Bruce would have built a brand new Batcave when Batman was ostensibly finished after the events of TDK. First, Wayne Manor (and we can assume the Batcave) was being rebuilt while TDK was going on. But second, you can totally believe that reclusive Bruce Wayne decided to rebuild the whole thing on his own as an outlet for his obsession. I can just picture him spending nights in the Batcave looking over police reports and unsolved crimes, waiting for some excuse that would allow him to put back on the cowl. This is a man consumed by his tragedy and wants it all to end.
Thus, when he finally puts back on the cape and cowl you can see how badly he has wanted to do this, he's just finally found an excuse good enough. I especially love how Batman just shows up, unannounced, without any sort of fanfare. In the end, we get to see Bruce learn and grow as a character, he learns to become Batman again, and the learns hot to let Batman go. Everything with Bruce Wayne is Aces.
Alfred
Again, this is another character that I feel gets shafted in a lot of other mediums but not in the Nolan trilogy. Often, Alfred is just this passive figure that essentially allows Bruce to continue to be Batman without any sort of real objection. He'll make a sarcastic quip or note some form of disapproval but in the end he always caves and supports Master Wayne, how the hell such a "beta" person was able to raise someone like Bruce boggles my mind. But, in the TDK trilogy he's actually portrayed as a real person that cares about Bruce and wants him to move past his Batman identity. In the TDKR he's constantly trying to push Bruce to get back into the world. After Selina steals Bruce's, Mother's pearls he jokes about setting him up with her, to which Bruce replies "So now you're trying to set me up with a jewel thief?" Thus, you get the impression that Alfred has been trying in vain for years to get Bruce to move on past all his tragedy and meet someone. Finally, Alfred reaches his limit and decides to leave Bruce rather than fuel his death wish any longer. It's great stuff, the only disappointment is that he doesn't get to do much of anything after leaving.
The Direct Challenge to the End of TDK
The one thing that some people don't seem to get about this movie is that it directly goes against and intentionally challenges the end of TDK, that's a bold move right there. One of the major themes of TDK is that sometimes it's better to protect people with a lie, that people often can't handle the truth. When faced between the choice of Order and Chaos it's better to build Order based on a lie than to allow the potentiality of Chaos that would result from the truth. Harvey Dent saw the truth head on and went crazy, Batman and Gordon decided that if they were going to clean up Gotham and prevent widespread Chaos it would have to be based on a lie. TDKR takes this theme and throws it back into your face and tells you that you were fools to think that Paradise could be built upon a lie. It's why I love that little speech Ghost Ra's Al Ghul gives to Bruce, "...with all your strength, all your resources, all your moral authority, the only victory you could achieve was a lie. Now you understand, Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die." Ouch.
In the end, the film presents the idea that true progress can only be built upon the truth because no matter how well you conceal a secret or lie it will always find its way to the light. Only by facing the bitter truth about Harvey Dent and the Batman, only by rising up and saving the city themselves could Gotham move on. The people were willing to let Batman clean up the streets because it meant they themselves didn't have to get their hands dirty or put themselves at risk. It's also why I love that final exchange between Gordon and Foley, who has tucked his tail and hid in his home. Foley is hoping/expecting the government or someone else to swoop in and save them but as Gordon says "This only gets fixed from the inside." I felt like that's such a powerful line that translates so easily into our real world.
I only want to briefly point out that this countering of themes is brought out in Talia al Ghul, the concept of whom I also really like. She's the representation of the old adage that "If you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back." She's not the mirror opposite of Bruce, she IS Bruce but taken to his logical and extreme end point. She too is an individual consumed by her own personal tragedy and need for revenge. She so driven by her goal to see "justice" done that she is willing to kill herself along with all of her victims in her plot. I think realizing who and what Talia truly was is what allowed Bruce to finally move on at the end, he realized he didn't want to be her.
Occupy Gotham
Continuing off that point I also love the idea of Gotham being occupied and under siege. I enjoyed the sort of revolutionary atmosphere the story was being framed as. When Batman burns the Bat Symbol on the bridge and says it's time to go to War I cream my pants every time.
It Concludes The Trilogy!
This is something that I just absolutely adore about the movie, it fucking concludes the story it began from Batman Begins. Batman is a trademarked, mega-popular franchise that will probably never go away. Due to this fact Batman stories rarely every conclude, their is usually some cliffhanger or Batman continues to be Batman with a setup for another potential story. TDKR actually concludes it's trilogy and Nolan completes his arc for the character of Bruce Wayne. Now, others can debate whether or not they enjoy Bruce's arc, I for one enjoy it, but I like the fact that it definitively closes out the trilogy. A bad example would be the conclusion to the Arkham "trilogy" which is by no means a conclusion. In my opinion, I do like the fact that Bruce Wayne gets a happy ending, call me a romantic. I like that he is finally able to move past Batman and make a new life for himself, although it does require him to "kill" Bruce Wayne. Again, I love the ending bit and that it actually shows Bruce Wayne and doesn't just end with Alfred smiling. To the small percentage of people who think that's how it should have ended you clearly don't understand how to conclude a story. This isn't Inception, the conclusion to the TDK trilogy demands certainty not ambiguity, either Bruce is alive and well or dead in the water.
The Rest of the Pros:
-Anne Hathaway as Catwoman. And, the acting of pretty much the whole cast.
-Also Catwoman getting his mother's pearls in the end.
-GOAT tier soundtrack
-Fight sequences, the fight scenes are definitely a step up from all the previous movies though their nothing near approaching great fight scenes.
-Batman's reemergence and chase sequence.
-The final chase sequence.
-"For you."
CONS:
It's Just Too Big. Payoffs with No Setup
I think the most of my complaints with the movie can come from one big criticism, the movie is too big. This of course is odd from a movie that is almost three hours long, you would think they had all the time in the world to tell their story, but they don't. TDKR suffers from trying to tell too many stories and portray so many themes. You've got the central story of Bruce Wayne but then you've got the occupation of Gotham, the rise of Robin, the story of Bane/Talia, Dagget Enterprises, Catwoman, Gordon and Foley, etc. There just isn't enough time to tell all of these stories completely. In fact, one of my biggest pros about the movie turns into a con by the end becaue of the time constraints, I'm talking about teh occupation of Gotham. We're told it'll take around two months for the bomb to explode in Gotham, then all of a sudden it's something like two weeks, then by literally the next scene it is suddenly 24 hours so we can have a ticking time bomb scenario.
The time skips within Gotham City means you don't really get enough time to experience Occupied Gotham, in fact the majority of the "revolution" is confined to one out of focus montage. It's literally Catwoman/Bane montage, Special Forces arrive and die, and then Gordon gets captured and Batman's back. We hardly get the change to truly feel like a citizen trapped in Gotham trying to survive while a police force slowly but desperately tries to fight back.
The result is that the movie feels less like this beautifully and intricately put together and more of a scattershot of big ideas and stories that while great are not executed as well and completely as they should be. If you look at TDK everything in that movie is intricately tied together, their isn't a lot of fat to the movie or parts that appear out of nowhere. Almost everything is setup and paid off later. Lucious introduces Wayne to new gadgets like ejectable gauntlets, these are used to take down the Joker. "C4" gun is used to enter LSI holdings, is later used to fight Joker's crew and the SWAT. Sonar phone is used to map LSI, Sonar phones on larger scale are later used to find Joker. Alfred tells Bruce that Batman can be the "outcast" to make the choice no one else can, Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent. I can go on and on, you get the point.
In TDKR, events often take place that have very little setup or none at all. Batman comes out of retirement with EMP gun, gets shot, is never seen again. His EMP generator is poorly introduced early on to stop those annoying paparazzi, is later used against Bane, fails, is never seen again. Batman gets magic device that "heals" his leg, it's never explained where he got this or why it works, is never seen again after getting his ass whooped by Bane. Batman uses sleep darts to take out Bane's crew, this device is never shown before or after its use. Batman uses Fire Bat Signal to incite the populace, it's never actually setup how he does this or that he saw Blake's drawings and thus realized the need for the symbol. Batman walks on thin ice, this one actually doesn't need setup (it was setup in BB) but a friendly or even joking reminder would have been nice. Gordon asking, "why aren't you sinking?" Batman responds, "I've had practice." You get the point.
Again, compare this to the ending of TDK. You got Batman using Sonar to find the Joker, the idea of which he stole from Lucius' concept earlier in the film and actually sets up later on when he tells Lucius "he's playing this one close to the chest." We follow up with the assault on the Joker building we're Batman uses his Sonar vision and Explosive Gel gun to take down the thugs and SWAT. Ultimately, this culminates in a fight with Joker where he is attacked by dogs, "...will it protect against dogs? We talking Rottweilers or Chihuahuas? Should do fine against cats." Where Batman eventually gets the upper hand by shooting Joker with his ejectable gauntlets setup near the beginning.
All in all, TDKR is just as not as well put together as TDK due to the fact that it wants to tell so much.
Remaining Cons:
-Batman in the Day, it just doesn't work.
-The decrease in humor.
-Bane is hard to hear a times.
-Marion Cotillard is HORRIBLY cast as Talia al Ghul. Worst. Death. Scene. Ever.
-Never liked the Atomic Bomb plot point even though I recognize that it's needed to hold the city hostage. Doubly hate that it actually explodes. Gotham is still going to get radioactive winds for years to come.
-Showing Alfred's "dream" initially, from that moment you knew how the movie would end. It would have been better to just let him describe it to Bruce without cutting away to a flashback thus allowing for more surprise with the ending.
-"Where's the triggaarrr!! argghhhhhhhhh"
Wow, I wrote a lot but screw it I love this movie and don't care if you don't read it all.
TL;DR TDKR is a great movie whose only fault is being too big for it's own good.
