-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
RTTP: The Pokemon. All 721 of them, and counting.
- Thread starter Watch Da Birdie
- Start date
Uh... STAB on 4x supereffective attacks against Landorus and Garchomp?
Though it feels like most decent Ice types are useful in spite of their type and not because of it. Case in point, Black Kyurem. Absurdly overpowered stats, but the combination of terrible movepool and terrible typing keep it in OU.
Some of them are pretty to look at.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Holy cow first time checking out Smogen, this is a whole new world of analysis. Is there like, an actual community around NU battling? I could get into that
SenorArdilla
Member
STAB Ice moves are rarely seen outside of Black Kyurem, Weavile, and Mamoswine.
Extremely powerful Ice-type attacks. Something like Amoongus or Celebi could easily tank an Ice attack from a non-Ice type, but if an actual Ice-type were to attack it. Bam. OHKO.
This too.
You bet!
The Eon ticket in ORAS does this.
Aaronrules380
Member
NU isn't even the lowest tier anymore lol. There's actually an even lower tier known as PU
Professor Beef
Banned
I could help but laugh when I finally got the PU abbreviation, lol
Aaronrules380
Member
I was the same
Dandy Crocodile
Member
PataHikari
Banned
In all honesty it's single typed Pokemon that just aren't as useful as dual typed. Having two STAB moves and more varied resistances is potent. Not to mention that dual types typically get wider movepools.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
#155 - Cyndaquil
Fire
The Charmander line was easily the most popular Starter, perhaps even the most popular Pokemon introduced in Generation I, and for their second Fire Starter Game Freak didn't even try to copy that success, they instead ended up churning out arguably the oddest Starter of them all, Cyndaquil. At first glance, unlike Bulbasaur and Chikorita, Charmander and Cyndaquil are quite different from one another, but you'll notice that Game Freak ended up just throwing Charmander's stats on Cyndaquil, and not even simply the same BST, the exact same layout, and just called it a day. Beyond that, though, the two are different enough in terms of their secondary Typing in their evolved forms, and have rather different movesets when all is said and done, but you can't help but be annoyed they didn't try and give Cyndaquil stats that were specifically suited for it, instead just copying its predecessor without taking in account how it'd play differently from Charmander. Players of Generation I going into Generation II might be hesitant to choose Cyndaquil after how Charmander got tossed around by the first Gym Leaders in Red and Blue, but here it's the opposite, with Cyndaquil being quite safe in the beginning but having difficulty near the end due to some Water, Rock, and Ground Pokemon. Unlike Chikorita, Cyndaquil doesn't really have a special play-style like it does, and is much more suited for an in-game adventure focusing on quick and powerful attacks, but lacks versatility and is pretty much "just" a Fire Pokemon.
I think Cyndaquil doesn't feel like a Starter Pokemon due to how different its design looks compared to the rest of the Fire Starters, notably going with an odd yellow/dark green color-scheme with its flames only visible part of the time. Now, I don't think every Fire-type Pokemon needs to be red/orange/yellow to make their Typing clear, but for the Starter Pokemon, I generally do think they should have designs that communicate their Type instantly, and Cyndaquil lacks that uniformity and looking at them in a group it really sticks out. I always felt that Cyndaquil seems like he'd make a better "normal" Pokemon, rather than a Starter, because of his unorthodox design. Now, we all know that Cyndaquil is a Fire Starter due to always being introduced alongside Chikorita and Totodile, but I bet if you saw Cyndaquil on its own without any context you probably would not guess it was a Fire Starter on visual appearance alone. I don't think I'm alone on this opinion, because it seems to me Game Freak may have felt the same way since all the other Fire Starters go back to using an obvious "Fire" color-scheme, as do basically all the Starters in general except for Cyndaquil.
Visually, despite those issues, I don't think Cyndaquil is a bad design, and in fact I think it's probably one of my favorite first-form Fire Starters. When I first saw it, I thought it was supposed to be some sort of odd lizard, but I'm actually not too far off the mark---Cyndaquil appears to be based on an echidna due to its spines and long snout, which was named for a mythical half-mammal/half-lizard creature, and in fact is capable of laying eggs. The echidna is a pretty obscure animal, so it's funny to think that there are two popular video-game characters---Cyndaquil and the fighting freak Knuckles---inspired by it. Cyndaquil also seems to have elements of other "spined mammals", such as its original name, Hinoarashi, coming from "yama-arashi", porcupine, and curling in a ball like one when threatened. Though its category just goes with the generic "Fire Mouse Pokemon", so it seems to be an amalgamation of various small mammalian creatures.
Ash caught Cyndaquil in the show, battling a rather mean Trainer for the right to capture it, but it's the only Fire Starter of Ash's who wasn't specifically abused by its former trainer as was the case with Charmander, and the Generation IV and V Fire Starters. Cyndaquil, like most of its species, was extremely timid and unable to light up its flame at first due to being somewhat of a wimp, but it eventually got over this and became the surprise MVP for Ash when it came to Johto Gym Battles such as taking down Scyther in the Bug Gym and Steelix in the Steel Gym, and helping in the Normal, Ghost, and Ice Gyms, taking down at least one Pokemon in each. The little dude packed a lot of power, but it was shafted in the Johto League like most of the main Johto squad, and didn't get to do anything till Diamond and Pearl. Speaking of Diamond and Pearl, to advertise HGSS Dawn was given her own Cyndaquil, which I really do not like---May's Kanto Starters both sucked, and I don't recall Dawn's Cyndaquil doing much of interest either, and it feels weird to re-use a Pokemon who already got sufficient screen-time as a member of the main cast.
#156 - Quilava
Fire
At Level 14, Cyndaquil evolves into Quilava---atleast that part's different from the Charmander-line, but like before, Quilava and Charmeleon are completely equal in terms of stats.
Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I'll reiterate that Quilava is easily one of the dullest Starter evolutions, as while there is a decent amount of change in the body, it feels a bit lacking compared to the other Starter evolutions, and once more seems more fitting of a "normal Pokemon family" who tend to experience less of a change as they evolve. Once more, there's nothing bad about the design, but I kind of enjoy the awkward middle Starter forms, and having one that just seems, well, perfectly reasonable looking without any elements suggesting that it's still growing kind of bugs me. When it comes to their flames, I feel like Cyndaquil is cute enough that without the flames, it looks pretty good, but I think its evolutions look really off when the flames are "retracted", and I wish they were always up for the most part---in the games, this was never an issue till XY, where Quilava's flames are now down in its default appearance, and it looks really lacking and dull that way. I also don't like the new Sugimori pose where Quilava is standing, also seen in its Crystal sprite, and I think it should stay on all-fours as its standing appearance makes it less intimidating and somewhat doughy. This is another Johto Pokemon where I think it looked much cooler in its original sprite, and over the years has lost its charm.
Cyndaquil was an echidna/porcupine, but Quilava appears to be some sort of member of the weasel family, such as a stoat. There's way more Pokemon based on members of the Mustelidae family then you would think, by the way, in fact every Generation except Gen VI has at least one---in case you were wondering, Generation I's was Slowpoke since it appeared to be based off some sort of otter. Apart from appearance, Quilava doesn't really seem to embody any specific elements of a stoat except for having the fierceness weasels are known for, as it's said to show its back to the opponent as a form of aggressiveness before blazing up and scorching its foe with flames---just be glad real-life weasels aren't flammable like Quilava is!
Five-hundred and seven episodes after its debut, Ash's Cyndaquil finally evolved into Quilava in time for the Sinnoh League, where it partook in a grand total of one battle that ended in a tie. Really kept us waiting, huh? Dawn's Cyndaquil evolved much faster, during a post-Diamond and Pearl special episode focusing on Dawn leaving for a new journey separate from Ash, and later appeared in the main show when Dawn cameo'd in Best Wishes, having an ultimately unfinished battle with Pikachu. It seems whenever someone else gets a Starter that Ash has, they evolve way faster, huh? In the actual Johto season, a Quilava appeared as one of Ash's main opponents during the Johto League, under the control of a girl named Macy, where it and Squirtle had a showdown to decide the winner and, of course, Squirtle won. A Quilava also appeared alongside a Charizard in the Hoenn League in a Double Battle match, up against a Grass and Ice Pokemon of Ash's who managed to win quite easily despite the Type disadvantage.
#157 - Typhlosion
Fire
At Level 36, Quilava evolves into wingless Charizard---I mean, Typhlosion. While Generation I gave its Fire Starter a dual-typing in its final form, Typhlosion ends up being pure-Fire, though I can't really think of any other Type that would fit it though. In Gold and Silver, Typhlosion was seen able to hold its own alongside Charizard, one notable trait was learning Thunder Punch via TM which gave it a nice counter against Water-type Pokemon that Charizard lacked, but has since become outclassed by it, and basically every other Fire-type Pokemon worth using. It seems Typhlosion's one claim to fame is not dying to Stealth Rock as fast as Charizard due to its mono-typing, but its lack of an additional STAB with its only unique trait is being of the few Pokemon to learn Eruption, and the only Fire Starter to do so. By the way, Typhlosion's PokeDex talks about it having a "secret, devastating move", that causes a huge explosion, but nothing in its move set fit this description till it learned Eruption in Generation IV, so I guess Game Freak just figured, "hey, we're get around to it eventually" when writing that entry in Gen II.
I still feel like Typhlosion feels more like a second-stage normal Pokemon as opposed to a third-stage Starter, but its design is alright and pretty intimidating, although it has a long way to go to compete with Charizard. Typhlosion is usually shown on its hind-legs, and I actually think it looks good this way thanks to its mantle of flames giving its upper-body a more balanced feel compared to Quilava, who looked bottom heavy, and thus in XY where the flame isn't included in the default model, I don't think Typhlosion looks that good. Even though it is usually depicted as standing on its hind legs, whenever we see it moving in the show it seems to favor running on all fours, which makes sense since it'd look weird walking on its tiny feet. I feel like it probably should've had another flame on its body, like one running off its tail like it had as Quilava, but I guess there's the Mega Evolution for that. Personally, I wanna see it grow giant, claws of fire---come on, that'd be cool.
Typlosion appears to be a larger type of weasel, and due to its intimidating nature and attitude it tends to be compared to the heavy-hitters of the Mustelidae world, the wolverine and the honey badger, though I don't think it actually looks that much like either of them, but personality wise it fits. Weasels are pretty cool I guess, but it's sort of a shame they dropped the echidna/porcupine element of Cyndaquil since I think you could do some pretty cool designs with those types of animals as well, but thankfully Game Freak would revisit this idea in Generation VI with the Grass Starter, so no foul. While the Chikorita line was all about being friendly and such, fitting for Grass-type Pokemon, Typhlosion is a bundle of rage ready to explode---an explosion of a typhoon of anger, you could say. Some people think the "Typh" part is a pretty neat pun on the localization teams' behalf, a Typhlon in Greek mythology was the husband of Echidna bringing the line full-circle, but I think this is a coincidence, as Typhlosion seems to be a pretty accurate translation of its Japanese name, "Bakuphoon", which mixes "blast/explosion" with "typhoon", and thus the "Typh" is just from that. But who knows, maybe someone on the localization team had good knowledge of obscurer Greek mythological beings?
Typhlosion didn't actually appear in the main show till Hoenn, and since then I don't think has ever appeared again in any major role, but was Jimmy's (basically the G/S player character) Starter in the Raikou Special. This special was notable for not following Ash, but I can't say that Jimmy was that compelling of a character, and personally I think the idea that dropping Ash from the show would instantly improve it is proven false by episodes like this---it's likely any replacement would be more or less the same Shonen-archetype as he is, and the freshness would wear off pretty fast. I don't remember anything about Jimmy, personality-wise, and it seems like he'll probably never appear again---"Ethan", the player character from HGSS, made a cameo in one of the movies, and thus it seems weird they'd have him and Jimmy existing side-by-side. Furthermore, during Diamond and Pearl around the time of HGSS, there was a mini-arc where two Johto kids joined Ash and co., the first was Lyra, the female player character from HGSS, while the other one was a anime-exclusive character named Khoury, who actually in the original had the same voice-actor as Jimmy and seemed to me to be the show admitting we'd never see Jimmy ever again. Well, at least we've got Alan-sama now.
Call it gen 2 bias or nostalgia but the gen 2 starters will always be my favorite. I also far prefer the yellow body on Chikorita even if that's not its art color. Feraligatr also hasn't looked nearly as awesome since G/S where it looked truly ferocious.
And finally, Gen 6 RUINED the Cyndaquil line by getting rid of their constant flames. Yeah yeah, it makes sense and the anime had done it, but it doesn't make them any less hideous.
And finally, Gen 6 RUINED the Cyndaquil line by getting rid of their constant flames. Yeah yeah, it makes sense and the anime had done it, but it doesn't make them any less hideous.
Seven Force
Banned
I actually like all of the Johto starters design wise :/
Never did notice Cyndaquil has the same Base Stat distribution as Charmander though, that's hilariously lazy.
Never did notice Cyndaquil has the same Base Stat distribution as Charmander though, that's hilariously lazy.
unknownstranger
Member
Gen 2 has always been low on my list of favorite starters. I think I would only put gen 5 below them. Removing the constant flames from Cyndaquil's line in 6 hurt them badly. Only Cyndaquil looks ok without them.
papertoonz
Member
your not kidding
it's doesn't look so bad on Cyndaquil but man Typhlosion just doesn't look right
any who i always forget that game freak just copied Charmander line stats onto the Cyndaquil line why?
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Guess who's next, son
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I can't wait till we get to the starters in 4 and 5. I love all of the starter lines in IV while being apathetic towards almost all of the rest of that set of designs, while the exact inverse is true for V
Apparently I'm outnumbered because I love Bayleef and Quilava and I really liked that the new Pokemon in Gen II complemented the existing ones instead of trying to replace them. Post-game Dark types was stupid though.
Anyway. Aww yeah I'm all caught up just in time for the best Johto character
Anyway. Aww yeah I'm all caught up just in time for the best Johto character
Something a lot of people seem to miss is that the philosophy behind Smogon's tiers isn't shunting shit Pokemon off into the closet never to be seen again. It's about giving people that want to see them shine a space for them to do that. I think that's one of the reasons the number of tiers has grown so drastically over the years, whenever a group of Pokemon starts languishing at the bottom of the list they carve out a new niche for them to live in.
Syph Medwes
Member
Pretty sure my sources are telling me Typhlosion is the best pokemon ever sooooooo
Benzychenz
Member
The whole Cyndaquil line is amazing, some of my favourite Pokemon, though yeah, they look awkward in gen 6 without the flames.
Damn, ruthless.
I completely disagree, the Cyndaquil line is my favorite starter in the series. The color scheme, the fact that the fire isn't always out(though I think it should be more active when in battle in XY's 3D model), I've always thought it was cool and I think all three stages are great. It disappoints me that it's so weak competitively, and I'm looking forward to the eventual Mega to potentially fix that.
I completely disagree, the Cyndaquil line is my favorite starter in the series. The color scheme, the fact that the fire isn't always out(though I think it should be more active when in battle in XY's 3D model), I've always thought it was cool and I think all three stages are great. It disappoints me that it's so weak competitively, and I'm looking forward to the eventual Mega to potentially fix that.
I have to imagine if you didn't know what was happening and didn't expect it at all the transition to gen 2 via the anime would've been the most amazing surprise ever.
I remember when I was a kid I thought 0:13~0:18 with all of Ash's rivals going by was the coolest thing ever. Still pretty cool tbh.
NotDreamcast
Member
Man, I remember blasting through Crystal using Typhlosion.
Flamethrower
Thunderpunch
Earthquake
yessss
Typhlosion really fell off as the generations went on though. And it is hilarious how its evolutionary line has the exact same stats as the Charmander line.
Flamethrower
Thunderpunch
Earthquake
yessss
Typhlosion really fell off as the generations went on though. And it is hilarious how its evolutionary line has the exact same stats as the Charmander line.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Typhlosion is a fat rug.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Also the cartoony fire it has makes it hilarious in 3D incarnations compared to the other fire types. I mean, I get it that they're supposed to be spikes of a porcupine but they just look so weird.
It's one of those mons that only focused in looking good in a 2D plane.
It's one of those mons that only focused in looking good in a 2D plane.
You have entered a dark and complex realm. There are communities around every type of battling imaginable. Even something called the Little Cup, which focuses on battling stage 1 unevolved Pokemon (Charmander, Pikachu, Caterpie etc.). Smogon is basically the go to source when it comes to competitive battling.
Nocturnowl
Member
I spent so many years trying to figure out what Typhlosion was actually based on, I just settled with the Honey Badger theory in the end bit in turn it makes me think we need a badger pokemon that isn't Typhlosion.
All of Johto's openings were stellar but this one, hot damn, that nostalgic throwback to the first theme and then it taking off into its own thing, so good.
(also rather fitting for Gen 2)
All of Johto's openings were stellar but this one, hot damn, that nostalgic throwback to the first theme and then it taking off into its own thing, so good.
(also rather fitting for Gen 2)
I don't regret any Spacial-based offensive Pokemon losing the punches. It finally allowed Hitmonchan to actually do something with them.
The Silver
Member
I will always be baffled how they had ghost type moves run off of attack and not special attack.
Ghost.....fucking ghost moves running off the physical stat, then they had the gall to make the Gengar line(all ghosts really) special attacking pokemon. Gamefreak pls.
woopWOOP
Member
I actually refused to evolve my Quilava one playthrough for that exact reason :V This was before Eviolite too.
I was always having a hard time picking between Cyndaquil and Totodile, but since Totodile's final form was better I usually ended up with him. Like posters pointed out a few pages back I do prefer the more beastly, darker shaded Feraligator of Pokemon GBC past.
Not unique to gen two, gen one has psyduck and ninetales for psychic and gyarados which everyone thinks should be a dragon, and even charizard.
In ORAS Latios/Latias (the other half of the due) where event pokemon where the item needed for them was spread via streetpass.
Personally I think that a bunch of the middle starters look fine. The awkwardness is strong with Pignite, Quilladin and the Gen IV starters though.
Dark Orchid
Member
Typhlosion's one of the Pokemon that I think should have some stats shuffled someday. I mean, yeah, Eruption on it is cool now, but I feel like people liked it a lot more when it was going around with moves that eventually became physical. I'd happily sacrifice Eruption to get Thunderpunch and Earthquake back and also, I don't know, make it not a Charizard clone by swapping its physical stats with its special stats?
Also yeah, I think one of the other issues with the gen 6 models is that they're too smooth and too teal compared to the originals, which makes lacking fire even worse. I know the Sugimori art always had the line as a dark teal, but honestly I think having a black "coat" like in the anime and admittedly limited G/S sprites worked better for it. Made it look like its back was charred from having the constant flames going.
I do have a soft spot for the line though, as they were my first Johto starter and probably the one that sticks with me the most when it comes to "I need a starter from another gen that I don't use as often as the Kanto ones" for playing through an extra cart or save file.
Also yeah, I think one of the other issues with the gen 6 models is that they're too smooth and too teal compared to the originals, which makes lacking fire even worse. I know the Sugimori art always had the line as a dark teal, but honestly I think having a black "coat" like in the anime and admittedly limited G/S sprites worked better for it. Made it look like its back was charred from having the constant flames going.
I do have a soft spot for the line though, as they were my first Johto starter and probably the one that sticks with me the most when it comes to "I need a starter from another gen that I don't use as often as the Kanto ones" for playing through an extra cart or save file.
That's the worst part. Everything about Typhlosion from its design to its movepool screams physical attacker but Game Freak blessed it with 84/109 attacking stats -_-
There's a lot of diversity here for a pure Fire-type
Double-Edge
Flare Blitz
Rock Slide
Earthquake
Brick Break/Focus Punch
Thunder Punch/Wild Charge
Shadow Claw
(Also Extrasensory and Aerial Ace just to point out its full type coverage)
Gyro Ball... for some reason...
What's even worse is how Dark moves were Special based before Gen IV. Literally every Dark type move in these gens that is not status based is a physical attack, not to mention how most Dark mons have higher physical attack stats in general. It makes me wonder if Dark was originally meant to be physical but got changed for balance reasons.
You know I liked/like a lot of Gen 2 mons, but a lot of them really were rather weak compared to Gen 1 mons. For example, there's no reason to use Jumpluff when you can have Victreebel or Vileplume (although LOL at getting a stone in the original games). Hell, most gen 1 mons were made easier to acquire than the new gen 2 mons. Also fuck whoever thought it was a good idea to put mons like Misdreavus, Sneasel, Houndour, Murkrow, and Slugma in post-game/Kanto (which makes no sense why would gen 2 mons show up in Kanto but not Johto first). And doubly fuck whoever thought it was a good idea to NOT change that in HG/SS (I think Sneasel was made available in Ice Path but that's it).
I see the OP is getting to the best starter line of all time now. But given what he's said so far I can already see myself disagreeing with him.
I love gen 2, but I agree that gamefreak placing so little faith on the gen 2 pokemon compared to the first was stupid. I feel like some of these things become even more apparent with how some of the pokemon dsitribution are in the games and how that wasn't fixed in HG/SS. It's still the best gen in my eyes, with V just behind it, but Gamefreak could easily fix some of the flaws in it. Making Noctowl Psychic/Flying should be done as well.
I love gen 2, but I agree that gamefreak placing so little faith on the gen 2 pokemon compared to the first was stupid. I feel like some of these things become even more apparent with how some of the pokemon dsitribution are in the games and how that wasn't fixed in HG/SS. It's still the best gen in my eyes, with V just behind it, but Gamefreak could easily fix some of the flaws in it. Making Noctowl Psychic/Flying should be done as well.
It's weird that in the first few routes, the distribution of Gen II mons was pretty good but after the 2nd gym, it suddenly drops off, not counting the new ones found in trees. It's like they were to going to include more new ones in but didn't and then forgot to redistribute them.