• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

RTTP: The Pokemon. All 721 of them, and counting.

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
uTtYGsi.png

#204 - Pineco
Bug

Oh yeah, this dude isn't Bug/Grass, he's just Bug. Anyway, Pineco is a rather common Pokemon in Gold and Silver as he can be found frequently in Headbutt Trees throughout the adventure. At the same time, he's easily skippable since you're never required to mess with Headbutt Trees and he's a Pokemon you'll probably only add to your team if you purposefully want to use one and seek one out. Pineco's another Pokemon whose use in the single-player campaign is dubious and his usage may confuse casual players due to a focus on self-inflicting damage---and a lack of Bug-type STAB attacks once more---though as we'll see when we reach his evolution, the family played an important role in the competitive scene and you could say introduced a major archetype to the metagame. Using one if the adventure is possible of course, and he can be useful especially when he evolves, though leveling him up may prove tedious since he'll probably end up fainting a lot and thus losing out on EXP---however, he can help grind up your other Pokemon as if you switch to him and use Self-Destruct to K.O. the enemy, the other Pokemon will get the full EXP from the fight.

Like Sudowoodo, Pineco is another Pokemon who confuses very literal-minded folks due to resembling a pine cone, yet not being a Grass-type but rather a Bug-type. All you have to do is look at his species name though and the truth becomes clear---he's a bagworm, a member of the Lepidoptera family, and basically the larvae form is a small caterpillar known to construct elaborate, protective hanging cases out of a variety of natural materials. In this case, Pineco is a bagworm larvae who surrounds itself in a case made of tree bark that just so happens to resemble a pine cone. The only real part of Pineco that can be seen is its eyes, everything else isn't actually part of the Pokemon but a shield, basically. Bagworms are interesting creatures, but I feel like a lot of Western folks are unaware of them---I had no clue the creature existed until I learned about the Pokemon equivalent, and actual bagworm cases are surprisingly elaborate and very neat looking, a really fitting creature to turn into a Pokemon. In Generation IV we get another bagworm Pokemon who incorporates even more elements of the creature, though I think Pineco wins out in popularity since the other Pokemon is kind of a lame Pokemon despite the neat biological references. I feel like Pineco should've been at least Bug/Grass since any attacks are interacting with the "shell" made of tree bark, and its evolution incorporates the material of its shell into its Type, but in the end I guess being pure-Bug is far better.

Pineco's design has a bit more to it than simply being a pine cone, you'll notice if you look at it long enough, you can even see a face start to form with a mustache and a big nose, though I don't know if this was intentional or if I'm just a person who tends to see human faces in otherwise non-human objects. But the other important motif is that Pineco is also a grenade, with a tendency to explode if it's bothered. Why does Pineco do this? Who knows, but I imagine it's not Pineco itself exploding, but rather the casing explodes while the true Pineco makes it escape unseen. There's also a ninja element to Pineco, which is why Koga probably uses the line in Gold and Silver despite not being part-Poison---ninjas were known to use rudimentary shrapnel bombs, such as a way to escape from a tight situation, and Spikes, which Pineco was one of the first to learn naturally, are named "Makibishi" in Japan and are a popular tool similar to caltrops said to be used traditionally by ninja.

Pineco was caught by Brock in Johto, and was the only new Pokemon he gained throughout the entire season excluding his Zubat evolving. Pineco had a bit more personality due to its gimmick to explode as a way to express its feelings, good or bad. Though otherwise it was a Brock Pokemon through and through. It later evolved at the end of Johto, and stuck with Brock throughout Hoenn as well. Going back to the ninja theme as well, in one filler of Johto that took place at a "Pokemon Jujitsu Academy" Pineco was used as Brock's training partner where it was shown to have a near flawless Spikes attack.

xPoRqiH.png

#205 - Forretress
Bug/Steel

Forretress is our first Johto Steel-type Pokemon excluding the Generation I evolutions, and has amazing defensive capabilities with its sole weakness being a 4X weakness to Fire---keep it away from Fire Pokemon, and it's a tough nut to crack. Forretress' impenetrable defenses will serve players quite well during the main game and in recent years its natural move set has grown to be quite diverse and impressive. In the competitive scene, Forretress truly shines, as it basically introduced two vital moves to the scene---Spikes, and Rapid Spin, and is one of the few Pokemon who had access to both of them, in addition to the powerful Explosion if need be. Before Stealth Rock hit the scene, Spikes was the entry hazard of choice, and made the importance of carrying a Rapid Spin Pokemon on your team to rid your field of them quite vital, so Forretress with its amazing defenses and capability to serve both roles no doubt proved to be a staple of many teams. While it's still a solid Pokemon to have, more and more Pokemon are capable of countering it, such as Pokemon with Levitate not having to worry about Spikes, and Ghost-type Pokemon being able to shut down its Rapid Spin capabilities, and its lack of attack options to take down those its normal tools won't work on has also hurt it overall. I remember using one of these in Pokemon Colosseum, and it was pretty effective against the CPU due to its strong defenses, so I'm in favor of the Pokemon even without being a major competitive player.

I feel like design-wise, you almost wouldn't think Pineco and Forretress are related at first glance---while Pineco looks like, well, a pine cone, Forretress looks like some weird giant clam with water guns sticking out of its body, and as a kid I remember seeing it at first and thinking it was a Water-type Pokemon. But it's a Bug/Steel Pokemon, and once more nothing you see except for its eyes is the real-deal, the rest is a strange casing made of solid steel, though where the steel came from is unknown. According to the PokeDex, it apparently roots itself to a tree, though usually it's shown floating around oddly like Geodude and I can't really imagine something that looks like it just hanging out on a tree. I actually like Forretress due to how weird it is, though I think perhaps Game Freak could've done a slightly better Steel-type bagworm Pokemon that didn't look so out of place compared to its evolution. Bulbapedia thinks it's supposed to be a giant nut perhaps, but made of steel, though I don't really see it.

Actually, perhaps Forretress isn't inhabiting a natural object, but rather a man-made one? Going back to the caltrops again, on Wikipedia on the caltrop page there is an image of exploding gunpowder caltrops from Ancient China that bring to mind Forretress, so I wonder if it's actually a bagworm who found an old-school hollow explosive mine of some sort and decided to use it as its new case? Yeah, I think that honestly makes more sense than it being a randomly metallic nut. Forretress has cannon-like protrusions from its body, though the PokeDex doesn't actually mention them whatsoever, and very rarely are they shown in the other media being used---it wasn't till Fire Red and Leaf Green gave it Zap Cannon that it really had a move that seemed like one requiring the use of its cannons. I'm sure there's probably an obscure ninja tool or ancient explosive the cannons are supposed to represent though going by how the rest of Forretress seems to be based on a somewhat obscure concept. It's a Pokemon who has a lot going on honestly, and is pretty interesting to me because of that.

Brock's Forretress was a running-joke among fans, because out of all his Pokemon---such as Geodude who was in the Hoenn Dex and still could evolve, or his loyal Crobat, it was Forretress of all Pokemon Brock took to Hoenn with him. Brock's Forretress had, like, three major moments throughout the show and quickly got pushed aside for all the new Hoenn Pokemon who were far easier to market, yet it was on the main cast (if you include its time as Pineco) for a very long time. I believe only Pikachu, Meowth, Wobbuffet, and Seviper were on the main cast longer than it was, though its actual total screen time probably amounted to about two full episodes if you added them all together. Its last major appearance was helping Brock capture Bonsly in the Battle Frontier---another episode based at a ninja school. A lot of folks joked that Brock was going to bring it with him to Sinnoh but sadly Forretress was finally dumped, and we haven't seen it since.
 
These two look nothing like their types.

During my playthrough of Soul Silver this year, when Koga busted this out, it confused me greatly. I assumed it was Water/Rock, but every attack I was throwing at it was not very effective. I looked it up online and was extremely surprised at its typing. I was like Bug/Steel, the fuck?
 

Daemul

Member
Two more Pokemon added to the already long list of Gen II Pokemon that I forgot existed. I'm seriously thinking of going to pick up HeartGold and forcing myself to use Gen II Pokemon, because I can't remember shit about most of them.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Other than the shadow Pineco in XD I have never ever encounter Pineco once in the wild.

Pineco was caught by Brock in Johto, and was the only new Pokemon he gained throughout the entire season excluding his Zubat evolving.

Man you know that Johto messed up with Brock of all people had two Pokémon on his team that fully evolved.

Ash however just barely evolved his Chikorita.

With a bit of imagination, Heliolisk can be surprisingly viable.

Then I must be lacking "imagination" because my Heliolisk on my X team just kept fainting while barely getting any hits in.

He was the weakest member on the team and I got very frustrated with him and his normal typing.
 

Toxi

Banned
Forretress heavily resembles a horse chestnut, which I guess is keeping in the theme of Pineco resembling a pinecone.

_50977046_horse-chestnut-seed.jpg
 
Two more Pokemon added to the already long list of Gen II Pokemon that I forgot existed. I'm seriously thinking of going to pick up HeartGold and forcing myself to use Gen II Pokemon, because I can't remember shit about most of them.

You're probably going to have to go out of your way to get a lot of the good ones. Also, training a full team in Gen II and its remakes will make you really underlevelled because the level curve is crap in those games.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
You're probably going to have to go out of your way to get a lot of the good ones. Also, training a full team in Gen II and its remakes will make you really underlevelled because the level curve is crap in those games.

It is possible to raise a full team in the gen 2 games, the only time I had to grind a few levels was when I reached Cianwood City.

But yeah the level curve in Johto is really bad.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Re: Forretress

As a kid, when the pokedex described it as the bagworm Pokemon, I literally thought it was filled with worms. So yeah that basically freaked me out forever.

I wish Zoroark and Heliolisk did not get fucked competitively. Two of my favourite pokemon.

Zoroark's doing alright for itself, especially now that it has Sludge Bomb. Heliolisk is pretty fast (if only it had 110-111 Speed) and it has a wonderful set of abilities, but that weakness to Fighting is the worst. At least it can switch into Water moves like nothing.

With a bit of imagination, Heliolisk can be surprisingly viable.

Making use out of niche Pokemon takes planning and practice, not imagination.

I remembered I EV'd a defensive Starmie just so I could check it. And Scald/Surf wouldn't even OHKO without Stealth Rock damage and SpA EVs. :lol

Haha, "Starmie counters Blaziken" was the biggest lie ever.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Heliolisk is pretty fast (if only it had 110-111 Speed) and it has a wonderful set of abilities, but that weakness to Fighting is the worst.

Yep, Heliolisk has great special attack and speed but its defence stats is bad and the fact that its weak to fighting is just the final nail in the coffin.

Making Heliolisk part normal is just bad because it offers no advantages what so ever.


At least it can switch into Water moves like nothing.

Unlike Stunfisk because he had to have Limber has one of its ability because...reason. ¬_¬;

Seriously Game Freak why did you not give Stunfisk Water Absorb?
 

V-Faction

Member
Forretress is the shit. What an amazing typing combo and cool counterpart concept to Scizor, the other Bug/Steel.

Spikes/Rapid is precisely why I trained one up. It wasn't particularly useful in the main campaign of Silver/Gold, but for Pokemon Stadium 2 it wound up helping a lot, not to mention how cool it was to lay into opponents (or rather, have them lay into you with barely a scratch).

On the list of Generation 2 Pokies, it's near the top for me. It, along with Umbreon and Shuckle, made me appreciate a side of Pokemon battles that I felt had never been all that valued in the past iterations -- defensive walls. In an age where your choice in variety was left up to older Kanto Pokemon or tons and tons of new-common-but-weak Pokemon, Forretress was revitalizing.
 
I remember the first time I fought Koga in Silver version. Forretress bodied me because I had no idea what it's typing was and pretty much ended up getting SpikeStalled on becaue I kept switching out trying to find a weakness. Good times.

Definitely one of the first Pokemon (along with Blissey) to help me understand the importance of walls.
 
I've used a Pineco a few times in gen 2. Extremely annoying to catch though since they have self-destruct. Forretress didn't have a great moveset back then but made up for it with its typing.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
I tried using Heliolisk in-game but it sucked badly haha. Not even Surf was enough to save it.

Same, at first I thought that Helioptile would get stronger once it evolves but nope even as a Heliolisk it was weak.

Stunfisk on my Y team however was able to pull his own weight and really surprised me with his troll move set.

Heliolisk really needed another evolution but sadly didn't get one and probably never will.
 

Toxi

Banned
Huh, even though Gen II introduced the second least amount of Pokemon, there's still 24 posts of it left to go.
A lot of them are single stage Pokemon and there are only a few three-stage lines (All but one of which have been covered).

In comparison, Kalos is going to go by absurdly quickly because there are barely any single-stage Pokemon.
 
A lot of them are single stage Pokemon and there are only a few three-stage lines (All but one of which have been covered).

In comparison, Kalos is going to go by absurdly quickly because there are barely any single-stage Pokemon.

Yeah, excluding the legendaries I think there's only Hawlucha, Dedenne, Carbink and Furfrou.
 

jnWake

Member
I hate single lines. Evolution is a big part of the fun of the games for me.

Well, I still love Absol though, but it could use a baby (it'd be cute as hell).
 

Daemul

Member
I can't wait till we get to Gen V, I have a lot to say about the power creep that went on there, most of it good.

Also fair warning, prepare yourselves for an essay long rant about the Genies. Gen V is my favourite Gen, but these three guys.....
LLShC.gif
 

Toxi

Banned
I can't wait till we get to Gen V, I have a lot to say about the power creep that went on there, most of it good.

Also fair warning, prepare yourselves for an essay long rant about the Genies. Gen V is my favourite Gen, but these three guys.....
LLShC.gif
5a8.jpg
 

Crayolan

Member
I didn't realize people don't like Pineco/Forretress. Pineco is a little meh but Forretress is cool as hell, dude's a literal floating fortress, how could I not like that? It's typing is pretty cool too.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
nfeZazr.png

#206 - Dunsparce
Normal

Dunsparce is pretty much the Farfetch'd of Generation II---a purposefully rare "gimmicky Pokemon" sans gimmick who Game Freak seems to take great pleasure in purposefully skipping over when it's time to deal out Cross-Generation Evolutions. In Gold and Silver, Dunsparce is very hard to come by---you can only find one in the optional Dark Cave, and it's another 1% appearance Pokemon outside of when a Dunsparce Swarm occurs. Furthermore, it's found at extremely low-levels, like first Route levels, and in Gold and Silver its natural move set was laughably sparse, so it was pretty much a Pokemon for PokeDex completion and that's that. Unlike Farfetch'd, though, Dunsparce actually did improve quite a bit in future games thanks to the Ability Serene Grace, making it a great Pokemon to annoy folks with by increasing the chance of making them flinch and paralyzing them, and has got a pretty versatile set of moves nowadays that using one during the main adventure isn't a bad idea, if you can find one that is. In Black 2 and White 2 it was made fairly common, appearing in multiple routes in shaking grass, so if you ever play those games and are looking for an unorthodox Pokemon to use, Dunsparce is your guy. In the competitive scene he's of course pretty average, but in the lower-tiers can be an effective Pokemon far more than Farfetch'd could ever hope. It seemed like around Generation V they were planning something for Dunsparce, as he was promoted I recall in the lead-up to Black 2 and White 2 as one of the classic Pokemon added to the New Unova Dex, and in Gates of Infinity he was promoted to a pretty important side-character and even graced the front of the box, but nothing ever came of it...honestly he was also a Pokemon I sort of hoped they made into a Normal/Fairy Pokemon just to give him something new, but sadly that didn't happen either.

While a lot of the Johto Pokemon we've covered have been rare for no real reason other than Game Freak just being Game Freak, there's a very good reason for Dunsparce's rarity---he's based off a legendary cryptid known as the Tsuchinoko, which is basically the Japanese Big Foot. The Tsuchinoko is described as being a strange snake-like creature with a swollen belly and poison fangs, capable of jumping a meter in length, biting its tail and rolling along the ground like a hoop, and in some stories capable of speaking as well. It's also said they're known to be natural liars, and also drunkards. Looking at Dunsparce (whose Japanese name is an anagram of Tsuchinoko, Nokocchi---the "tsu" character when shrunk can double a following consonant thus it's still in the name in the "cc" part), it has quite a few of these elements such as the swollen belly, wings allowing it to float through the air slightly akin to jumping, its ability to roll up like a hoop seen in Rollout, and finally it kind of looks drunk with those weird eyes. The poison element isn't represented that well, though, since it learns very few Poison-type attacks, and as far as I know Dunsparce isn't particularly known for lying nor can it talk. But for the most part, it definitely captures the basic idea of the Tsuchinoko while doing its own thing---but hey, it's a creature that probably doesn't exist, so there's a lot of leeway for Game Freak here. A lot of Westerners probably had no clue what a Tsuchinoko was---Metal Gear Solid 3 didn't come out till a few years later---and probably quite a few fans out there still are unaware of the true nature of Dunsparce. I love cryptids, and wish we had more Pokemon based on them. It's 2015, and we still don't have a Flatwoods Monster or Mothman Pokemon!

Though Dunsparce is a Normal-type Pokemon, its main gimmick seems more fitting for a Ground-type Pokemon as it's known for using its drill-like tail to escape foes by digging backwards, and is said to live in giant maze-like tunnels it creates underground. I guess being a purposefully odd Pokemon, though, Game Freak wanted to represent that by giving it Normal, the "all inclusive" Type, though it's one Pokemon I think everyone had a different idea of what Type it was when they first encountered one. The reason for its affinity towards the earth might be a pun as Tsuchinoko normally translates to "hammer spawn", but the "tsuchi" could also mean "earth", thus a creature spawned from the ground. In some places in Japan, the Tsuchinoko is known as the "bachi hebi", "bee snake", which may have also inspired part of its design as you can kind of see some bee-like elements in it, I guess. Pokemon like Dunsparce are the reason I live for this franchise, basically, it's so fun to examine and talk about, and it's nice to learn about obscure topics like this I otherwise would've never looked up.

Dunsparce had a pretty by-the-books filler in Johto, however there's been an odd focus on it recently that definitely makes me wonder if the show is also trying to hype the Pokemon up for some reason. At the end of Best Wishes, a random Dunsparce appeared who Ash wanted to capture, though he failed and it managed to escape. It was pretty odd, and seemingly random to just throw into the final episode of the series, but nothing came of it as when XY was released, Dunsparce didn't have a major role or anything nor any new forms. However it happened AGAIN in XY, where another Dunsparce popped up prompting Ash to try and capture it, only to discover he didn't have any PokeBalls with him, and the Pokemon once more escaped. This episode aired at the beginning of this year, and since then Dunsparce has yet to pop up again---but I'm awfully suspicious as to why the show has pulled this gag twice.
 

Juni_

Member
Thank you genies.

I was really hoping dunsparce would get a fairy typing or something in xy.
Mega Dunsparce would have been cool.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
A quick preview---but I just realized something about Gligar that will blow your mind and completely change how you view the Pokemon.
 

V-Faction

Member
Normal-type is the abyss-ridden black hole of garbage when it comes to interesting, what-could-have-been Pokemon. Dunsparce wears the cap in that category.
 
Used a Dunsparce some in White 2. It's base stats are good enough to carry you through a lot of the early game, but once your team is around level 30 and you get your second evolutions it becomes a lot less valuable. Did the same thing with Audino in White.
 
Top Bottom