JLMC469
Banned
Still the best looking game this gen (IMO). Really wish we got a sequel.
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Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
Still the best looking game this gen (IMO). Really wish we got a sequel.
Leonidas
Member
Summary of the article.
If it came out this year or next year I really wonder how much more powerful the GPU could be compared to Scorpio, sure the CPU is better but games won't necessarily look that much better.
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rokkerkory
Member
2018?? Lol no way
Insane Metal
Gold Member
So not really much in the article at all. Lol
bitbydeath
Gold Member
No chance it is coming this year.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
7nm, smaller the chip the cheaper it is to produce.
Armorian
Banned
A. Games designed with PS5/X4 in mind won't run on old consoles without major changes, take a look at Shadow of Mordor for example.
B. Games designed with PS4/X1 as a base will just be upgraded for new consoles - 60 fps will be possible without any problems in any game - look at MGS5.
Two scenarios for next gen are possible, with option A we have normal next gen start where most 3p publishers just upgrades they engines to PS5/X4 specs and majority of titles will be 9 gen exclusives with some cross gen games in first ~12 months. Option B means next consoles are just PS4 Pro Pro and Xbox 1 XX - most gamers won't bother to upgrade if they can play the same games on old consoles. Second option is what you want and I think there is no chance in hell console makers would allow that. To push gaming to the next level we NEED to move away from jaguar.
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MilkyJoe
Member
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
You are not getting a 12 tflop ps5 in 2019.
I'm not saying what ps5 tflop count will be.
I'm saying what it won't be in 2019, for 399.
D
Deleted member 738645
Unconfirmed Member
Where did you get that summary? Did you buy a subscription for 1000$?
The issue is that nobody makes games exclusively for Xbox One X or PS4 Pro so a lot of the potential sits unused unless it can be harnessed through bruteforcing improvements through (higher resolution and higher quality textures for example).
bitbydeath
Gold Member
llien
Member
Paywalled...
Thanks for the summary.
PS
I think this info is worthy of being put into OP, rumor or not.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Added
llien
Member
More info, from digging all around:
I think we can now speak with good certainty that PS5 devkits are indeed out.
Semiaccurate's history looks quite good on console front, nailed it with Switch, as well as final PS4 specs before the release.
- Not simply Zen based, but still 8 core (!)
- "Navi based microarchitecture" might be in line with how Pro has "Vega microarchitecture" a feature or two
- Navi based GPUs poised to strike Q4/2018 (yeeehaaaa if true, very unexpected)
- Speculates Q4/2018 or Q1/2019 PS5 launch
I think we can now speak with good certainty that PS5 devkits are indeed out.
Semiaccurate's history looks quite good on console front, nailed it with Switch, as well as final PS4 specs before the release.
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Leonidas
Member
I don't think that's an issue. Microsoft and Sony already both fully utilize the power of the X and Pro.
Third party devs(virtually all of whom are on PC) will put in higher settings for the PS5 but the games aren't going to magically look that much better than X version of games unless there is a substantial difference in GPU power.
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You can already do it now on the PC front with a modified Ryzen APU.
Just using a custom Ryzen APU with ps4s 36 compute units would put you close and like in the 9-10+ range. Bumping up the clock and putting Xbox ones 40 compute units on that chip would get you to 12 no problem.
I knew this was going to be based on Zen 2 and Navi. Getting to 12 will be a breeze even in quarter 4 18, but I doubt it I say 2019 personally. Either way it’s going to be crazy.
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Leonidas
Member
Impossible with 36 CUs, you'd have to be running over 2 Ghz to hit 9-10 Tflops. Even the fastest 350 watt AMD desktop GPUs can't run that fast.
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The $160 Ryzen runs at 1250Ghz and that’s based on Zen 1 and Vega at 12nm. I’m expecting at least 1.5ghz gpu clock and I think 2ghz is possibly if they are going to be clocking the cpu at 4Ghz+.
Remember the current 14-12nm arch already gets you high clocks right now.
The Zen 2 design is specifically focused on performance increases and the Navi 7nm should get us high clocks even with less cus.
Actually just read this on Toms hardware so I can’t wait to see what Navi can do:
Overclocking
Overclocking with AMD's Ryzen Master utility is simple. The execution cores responded readily to our efforts, and the Ryzen 5 2400G floated up to 4 GHz with a 1.4V vCore setting. We also adjusted the VDDCR SoC voltage, which is a single rail that feeds the uncore and graphics domains, to 1.25V. That allowed us to dial in an easy 1555 MHz graphics clock rate and push the memory up to DDR4-3200 with 14-14-14-34 timings.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-2400g-zen-vega-cpu-gpu,5467-5.html
Overclocking
Overclocking with AMD's Ryzen Master utility is simple. The execution cores responded readily to our efforts, and the Ryzen 5 2400G floated up to 4 GHz with a 1.4V vCore setting. We also adjusted the VDDCR SoC voltage, which is a single rail that feeds the uncore and graphics domains, to 1.25V. That allowed us to dial in an easy 1555 MHz graphics clock rate and push the memory up to DDR4-3200 with 14-14-14-34 timings.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-5-2400g-zen-vega-cpu-gpu,5467-5.html
Leonidas
Member
That's within the range of current Vega GPUs, but that's only a 10 CU chip and Sony isn't going to start overclocking their consoles, look at PS4 Pro, it's the same CUs as RX 480 but running at only 81% of the base(not boost) RX 480 spec. We haven't even seen an AMD GPU that can reach 2 GHz yet. And it will have to be a 2 GHz base clock before there is any hope of a console having 2 GHz GPU core.
If you think AMD will have a 2 GHz base clock GPU in the next year then you have a lot more faith in them than I do...
They could still get to 10 Tflops, they'd just need more CUs...
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MilkyJoe
Member
LittleAngryDog
Banned
I think you guys are very worried about the GPU power instead the CPU power. I'll try to refresh your minds about it.
BUT DO THE MATH!
In the PS3 generation. The games were more optimized in CPU than GPU, because the CPU of the time were the strongest component of the consoles. In the currently generation, games are more optimized in the GPU than in the CPU, because the strongest component of this generation is the GPU. For this reason, games of the past generation have difficulty being ported to the PS4. That's why there is no backward compatibility with PS3 games. Games like the GTA IV would be complicated to port using the Rage Engine that demands a lot of CPU power that unfortunately the PS4 does not have. GTA V had all its physics removed to fit into the current generation. But if the focus of the next generation is the CPU, as the many rumors about the Ryzen/Zen architecture said. Elements such as physics, animation, destruction and AI will be assigned to the CPU. While the GPU will be totally free to render incredible graphics and native 4K. In addition to the fact that these future consoles can be backward compatible with many PS360 games.
If I'm not wrong, this is what I understood. And this explains why a GTX 1080 or RX VEGA 64 suffer so much to make current games in 4k 60fps MaxSettings. For many of these games are ported directly from the consoles that demand more power from the GPU than from the CPU. Then the raw power of the GPU that could be used for graphics is being consumed to do the functions normally assigned to the CPUs. Today the advance of the CPU was gigantic but few games take advantage of its real capacity. Only in the next generation we will see what powerful GPUs are capable of and what CPUs are capable of doing.
Only in the next generation we will see GPU and CPU 100% free to work exclusively with their real designated functions. Then the graphic jump will be amazing. And the jump of physics, AI, animation and particles will also be for the CPUs. If you look at the current games like Rise of The Tomb Raider you will find that they do not use much CPU capacity. All this because they were games designed for consoles with weak CPUs and strong GPUs. Note that Rise of The Tomb Raider consumes a small percentage of the Ryzen 7 1700 CPU running in 4k. It consumes about 20% of the CPU. We can conclude that most of the functions that should normally be assigned to a CPU are being rendered by the GPU. This means that if the game were fully optimized for the CPU the GPUs would have performance slack converted into graphics. So we will see games enjoying a good part of the CPU and 100% of the GPU on the PS5. Do not worry if the PS5 has 10Tflops and 3.2Ghz. I think 3.2Ghz is enough for a striking generational jump. 10 or 12Tflps can make a good difference between one generation and another. It is not correct that you are making such super-high estimates based on what games currently consume GPU. With each generation the programming methods used by the developers change drastically. This has happened in all generations. And it will not be any different next time. The consoles will also be compatible with new APIs and performance will be greatly improved.
The RX VEGA 64 has been misused in this generation and some of you may find that a console with 12.6Tflops (RX VEGA 64) will only be able to make 60fps with current or 30fps graphics with slightly improved graphics but in practice it will be quite different and can add an extra 30fps in performance converted graphics. A game that runs at 60fps in the current generation could be totally reconstructed based on the features of a CPU giving GPU slack and reaching 90fps. So we will see games running at 30fps with a brutal difference in graphics. The jump from the basic PS4 to the PS5 will be huge. We will estimate a jump of 1.84Tflops to 12.6Tflops. From 1080p to 4K(4x more pixels). The CPU jump would allow physics, AI and much higher animations.
Of course the PS4 game port for PS5 will run at 4K 60fps and will not reach 90fps. Because they were developed and programmed with the current hardware architectures based on high-performanc GPUs and low performance CPUs. But games that are made entirely based on the next generation with new programming languages will be pretty.
BUT DO THE MATH!
In the PS3 generation. The games were more optimized in CPU than GPU, because the CPU of the time were the strongest component of the consoles. In the currently generation, games are more optimized in the GPU than in the CPU, because the strongest component of this generation is the GPU. For this reason, games of the past generation have difficulty being ported to the PS4. That's why there is no backward compatibility with PS3 games. Games like the GTA IV would be complicated to port using the Rage Engine that demands a lot of CPU power that unfortunately the PS4 does not have. GTA V had all its physics removed to fit into the current generation. But if the focus of the next generation is the CPU, as the many rumors about the Ryzen/Zen architecture said. Elements such as physics, animation, destruction and AI will be assigned to the CPU. While the GPU will be totally free to render incredible graphics and native 4K. In addition to the fact that these future consoles can be backward compatible with many PS360 games.
If I'm not wrong, this is what I understood. And this explains why a GTX 1080 or RX VEGA 64 suffer so much to make current games in 4k 60fps MaxSettings. For many of these games are ported directly from the consoles that demand more power from the GPU than from the CPU. Then the raw power of the GPU that could be used for graphics is being consumed to do the functions normally assigned to the CPUs. Today the advance of the CPU was gigantic but few games take advantage of its real capacity. Only in the next generation we will see what powerful GPUs are capable of and what CPUs are capable of doing.
Only in the next generation we will see GPU and CPU 100% free to work exclusively with their real designated functions. Then the graphic jump will be amazing. And the jump of physics, AI, animation and particles will also be for the CPUs. If you look at the current games like Rise of The Tomb Raider you will find that they do not use much CPU capacity. All this because they were games designed for consoles with weak CPUs and strong GPUs. Note that Rise of The Tomb Raider consumes a small percentage of the Ryzen 7 1700 CPU running in 4k. It consumes about 20% of the CPU. We can conclude that most of the functions that should normally be assigned to a CPU are being rendered by the GPU. This means that if the game were fully optimized for the CPU the GPUs would have performance slack converted into graphics. So we will see games enjoying a good part of the CPU and 100% of the GPU on the PS5. Do not worry if the PS5 has 10Tflops and 3.2Ghz. I think 3.2Ghz is enough for a striking generational jump. 10 or 12Tflps can make a good difference between one generation and another. It is not correct that you are making such super-high estimates based on what games currently consume GPU. With each generation the programming methods used by the developers change drastically. This has happened in all generations. And it will not be any different next time. The consoles will also be compatible with new APIs and performance will be greatly improved.
The RX VEGA 64 has been misused in this generation and some of you may find that a console with 12.6Tflops (RX VEGA 64) will only be able to make 60fps with current or 30fps graphics with slightly improved graphics but in practice it will be quite different and can add an extra 30fps in performance converted graphics. A game that runs at 60fps in the current generation could be totally reconstructed based on the features of a CPU giving GPU slack and reaching 90fps. So we will see games running at 30fps with a brutal difference in graphics. The jump from the basic PS4 to the PS5 will be huge. We will estimate a jump of 1.84Tflops to 12.6Tflops. From 1080p to 4K(4x more pixels). The CPU jump would allow physics, AI and much higher animations.
Of course the PS4 game port for PS5 will run at 4K 60fps and will not reach 90fps. Because they were developed and programmed with the current hardware architectures based on high-performanc GPUs and low performance CPUs. But games that are made entirely based on the next generation with new programming languages will be pretty.
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DonF
Member
There is no need for a new console right now, with the mid gen refreshers released less than 2 years ago. Look at the state of the console and software market, when the sales of consoles drop drastically, then its time for a new console.
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Both Sony and MS have change clockspeeds of their hardware in software before. I have no idea if they will do it or not, but even the Ryzen 5 2400G was said to be the "worst case scenario"
Here is the thing, heat and power consumption tend to be the two biggest prohibitions on clock speed. AMD has their Zen 1 and Vega 14nm arc already at 3.9Ghz/1250 Mhz GPU at 65W.
This thing should be Navi based, 7nm! It may be 8 core for 16 threads possible or 6 core for 12 threads running at at least 3.2Ghz, but I don't see why they wouldn't go at least 3.9ghz on 7nm and I could see up to 4.5ghz boosts.
As for the GPU clock. I personally expect 1.5Ghz minimum which should be easy to accomplish. As far as getting 2Ghz, I believe its possible but less likely and it will entirely depend on the number of cus. Our scenario has been assuming 36 cus which really doesn't make much sense especially with 7nm arc.
My predictions:
Minimum:
3.6ghz Zen1/Vega 1240mhz 12nm 36cus
16GB GDDR6
7-8TFlops
Average:
3.9Ghz Zen2/Navi 1.5-1.8 ghz based 7nm 48 cu
24 GDDR6
8-10 Tflops
High: (But what I think is likely)
4ghz+ Zen2/(pre-3) Navi based 1.7-2+Ghz 7nm 64 cu
32GDDR6
10-15 Tflops
I don't think anyone is ignoring that.
I think everyone was well aware that no amount of emulation or processing would suddenly make a game use to running on a 3.2 ghz processor perform well on an sub 2ghz processor.
This generation will be fantastic simply by virtue of the clockspeed changes and 7nm arc change.
Having possible 8 cores/16 threads running at 3.2+ is going to be a dream come true for most developers. And the GPU clockspeed/W/heat ratio promises to be the best we've ever seen.
The best part is that the GDDR6 RAM will be twice the bandwidth for only a 10% cost increase over current GDDR5 RAM.
llien
Member
Either me or you have very wrong idea about how GPUs and CPUs work.
There is no easy "offload it to GPU, no, wait, CPU is stronger, I use that instead!" possible as:
CPU-s execute generic purpose logic
GPU-s are massively parallel number crunchers
I agree, it is a tad early and that's why 2019 makes more sense, but I am pretty sure at the moment that devkits have been sent out indeed.
Which makes me wonder, what can be inside the devkits.
CPU part is easy, no need to change Zen much, 8 core hints at backward compatibility.
But GPU... Hm... And is the APU 7nm?
Perhaps GloFo is ahead of schedule and they do have enough silicon to send out devkits...
Or Vega20 (?) which Lisa Su said would be the first 7nm product.
We will have to agree to disagree on the full potential of Xbox One X and PS4 Pro being taken advantage by first parties, but sure they are using them likely a lot more deeply than third parties have business reason to.
I think that the difference in power will be substantial in both CPU and GPU and developers making games for the new generation of consoles will be able to expect every user to have those specs thus raising the baseline. I think you are underestimating the difference between what Xbox One X and PS4 Pro bring to the game vs what Xbox Two and PS5 would bring.
There is always a cross generation period, but there are always some third parties that try to take advantage of the hunger for new content when a new generation launches.
As you could also see in the Witcher 3 sales recap thread PC is not the dominant platform where most of the revenue is generated and I am convinced that is not the only publisher where this is happening. Until the baseline changes for consoles in earnest using The average big third party PC games may not be the best example of what new generation boxes can bring to the table actually.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Probably referring to GPGPU which allows for some computational tasks to be performed on the GPU.
I’m still leaning towards Navi as Vega is end of life, given a PS5 Pro were eventually on the cards it’d be more compatible with a later version of the same hardware.
Leonidas
Member
PC dictates graphics, PS5 changes nothing. Consoles are all using PC GPUs... The graphics in PC games never jump because of consoles, it is always gradual and is based upon the power of mainstream PC graphics hardware. PC continues to raise the bar, consoles remain static(and games veer towards lower settings over time).
I'm not underestimating PS5. It's a fact that it will be the lowest jump in graphics performance compared to the most powerful current gen console. And if it has 12 Tflops or less the difference in power probably won't be apparent to the average Joe.
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Same, if they are going to be manufacturing these things for 5 years or so it would make sense to use the latest manufacturing process for the chips that will be around the longest.
DonF
Member
$400
I know that historically playstation has always had round number pricing (ps1 $299, ps2 $299, ps3 $499-$599, ps4 $399) But I feel that this next gen could have a mild adjustment for the value of the console. Like a bundle with plus for $450 or with 2 controllers.
Why $400? because of the success of the ps4, seems like a sweet spot for a new console this days.
LordOfChaos
Member
Keeping in mind the PS4 was a mishmash of features between GCN 1.1-1.3, and the PS4 Pro borrowed a few features from Vega. Rooted in Navi could mean many different things.
Jaguar to Zen will definitely be the biggest boost of next gen, since they already used the die space of one die shrink on more GPU for the Pro. Hopefully this is another shrink down at 7nm.
I'm pro working on dev kits and development now, but 2018 does seem early with so much PS4 momentum. Certainly in the next two years though would be ok timing by me.
If it was fully compatible with the PS4 though, maybe even that assumption is meaningless as it could just catch on to the PS4s momentum.
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Godchild1020
Neo Member
Feels like a marvel movie.
llien
Member
Why would you have concerns about Zen based APU's CPU perf?
AnimalFather
Banned
not simply zen based? why even bother if ur not going with zen? anything lower than that is idiotic.
seems like another half step. it probably wont be named ps5.
seems like another half step. it probably wont be named ps5.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Using Zen architecture will be the biggest benefit.
Very excited about that.
Very excited about that.
I don't see how it can possibly anything less than Zen+ paired with Navi arch. That doesn't even make sense from a manufacturing perspective.
AnimalFather
Banned
it makes sense if the CPU is once again riding in the backseat.
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