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Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)

THE:MILKMAN

Member
It takes 3-4 years to make a game, even if they launch in 2021 there would be "dev-kits" out there already.
What I'm dying to know is what specs will be, looking forward to a 4K microled/oled tv sometime in 2020/2021 :3

Everything I've read and what insiders here and elsewhere have said this just isn't the case. GG were informed they'd be making Killzone:SF in March 2011 just 2.5 years before PS4 launch.

The "Frankenstein" PCs with 2.2GB R10 AMD GPUs (which I suspect were only for OS/Middleware creators not game devs) went out in the second half of 2011 so ~2 years or so before launch.
 
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for backward compatibility. Owning a base PS4, it would be great to slap a disc into the PS5 and be able to play games in the Pro (or better) modes. Infamous has an option for an unlocked frame rate, Shadow of the Colossus can run at 60fps, etc. Would be pretty cool.
 

zeorhymer

Member
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for backward compatibility. Owning a base PS4, it would be great to slap a disc into the PS5 and be able to play games in the Pro (or better) modes. Infamous has an option for an unlocked frame rate, Shadow of the Colossus can run at 60fps, etc. Would be pretty cool.

If they don't do backwards compatibility, I'm not going to buy Day 1. My digital library has gotten quite large and I don't feel like throwing away all of my games down the toilet because they don't work with the PS5.
 

Garani

Member
If they don't do backwards compatibility, I'm not going to buy Day 1. My digital library has gotten quite large and I don't feel like throwing away all of my games down the toilet because they don't work with the PS5.
Indeed this is my stance. I have a number, a quite sizable one by now, that I own, especially via PSN+, that I would like to play and still haven't. I would hate to leave them behind.
 

Zannegan

Member
It takes 3-4 years to make a game, even if they launch in 2021 there would be "dev-kits" out there already.

Not really. Dev kits usually go out (wide) around 18 months prior to the planned launch. Final dev kits can be just a few months before the big day. Before then, third parties develop their games on PCs and just tailor their games for what they expect next gen to be. It's why you see a lot of "cross gen" games at the beginning of a generation.

If dev kits are really out there and widely available, then a Fall 2019 launch is totally possible. I'm still pulling for early 2020 though.
 
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TLZ

Banned
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Dbygc-RWAAAIJuy.png:large



PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.
This tells me more they want to replicate everything they did with the PS4, "Hmm, that worked. More of the same please!", and enhance whatever made it a success further. Not sure it tells anything about dates. But surely they won't wait for their current success to stale.

Still rooting 2019. (Even though 2020 might have better hardware, but if we go by this logic, companies would never release anything and only wait)
 

bitbydeath

Member
Still rooting 2019. (Even though 2020 might have better hardware, but if we go by this logic, companies would never release anything and only wait)

This is true, I’m expecting they’ll be basing hardware around getting a susceptible PSVR2.
 

Shin

Banned
Not really.
I didn't say wide and used quote marks for a reason, dev-kits could just be an idea, the spec of a GPU+CPU and developers could target that.
It does not have to be a psychical machine, certainly not anymore, there's no logic to think a new system will launch without any games.
I don't recall any system launching as such, games are always being made and it's a process that never stops, if developers got word of what to target well that's your dev-kit right there.
The final spec, shape and all that can come later, but to say or to even think that games aren't being made for the machine behind closed doors is to be blind...."dev-kit" or not.
 
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LordOfChaos

Member
Still rooting 2019. (Even though 2020 might have better hardware, but if we go by this logic, companies would never release anything and only wait)


This is usually my advice when buying a laptop or something, unless a big change (like more cores in each wattage finally happening right now) is around the corner. There's always something better around the corner, just get what you need. But a console will retain that spec for its entire life. If that wait led to a bigger increase and the PS4 is fine on its own, I'd be more than fine with 2020.

It's not slippery slope because the next big gains won't be till 2023+ with 5nm, which would be a silly wait.

If EUV is out of the running for cost though, the difference between 2019 and 2020 is largely in yields. Unless 2020 lets them sneak in Zen 2 rather than Zen+, borrow more from the NextGen pipeline rather than mostly Navi or Vega with Navi features. EUV would be gravy.

...Actually yeah, still #Team2020 lol, convinced myself while talking. I only got my PS4 last year and I don't feel games are as strangled by it as they were by the end of the 7th gen yet. 2020 feels perfect.
 
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LordOfChaos

Member


  • Zen 2 is "Complete"
  • Zen 3 is "On Track"
  • 25 New Notebooks in the second quarter alone
  • Commercial products coming from HP, Dell, and Lenovo
  • Strong Initial Silicon for Next-Gen 7nm GPU Solutions. Very pleased on initial results
  • Comment on GPP "Committed to open market and ecosystem etc vague"
  • Share authorization increase "no immediate plans to use the shares, been 10 years since last increase, so they felt it was time. Anything they would use them for still requires board approval"
  • Got asked about being the "Poor Man's Intel or Nvidia" I chuckled.
  • Differentiate by having both CPU/GPU
  • 10% of revenue is blockchain related


Yuuuss to the bold
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
I'm guessing a PS5 release date around Nov. 19' myself. With prob no Ps4 backwards comp...hope I'm wrong.
 

TLZ

Banned


  • Zen 2 is "Complete"
  • Zen 3 is "On Track"
  • 25 New Notebooks in the second quarter alone
  • Commercial products coming from HP, Dell, and Lenovo
  • Strong Initial Silicon for Next-Gen 7nm GPU Solutions. Very pleased on initial results
  • Comment on GPP "Committed to open market and ecosystem etc vague"
  • Share authorization increase "no immediate plans to use the shares, been 10 years since last increase, so they felt it was time. Anything they would use them for still requires board approval"
  • Got asked about being the "Poor Man's Intel or Nvidia" I chuckled.
  • Differentiate by having both CPU/GPU
  • 10% of revenue is blockchain related


Yuuuss to the bold

2019 then? ;)
 

Zannegan

Member
I didn't say wide and used quote marks for a reason, dev-kits could just be an idea, the spec of a GPU+CPU and developers could target that.
It does not have to be a psychical machine, certainly not anymore, there's no logic to think a new system will launch without any games.
I don't recall any system launching as such, games are always being made and it's a process that never stops, if developers got word of what to target well that's your dev-kit right there.
The final spec, shape and all that can come later, but to say or to even think that games aren't being made for the machine behind closed doors is to be blind...."dev-kit" or not.

Eh, again, not really. I'm well aware that initial development takes place on computers rather than development kits. My entire argument sort of hinges on that point. However, dev kit doesn't mean target specs, it means a physical development kit. It's a standard industry term. This rumor, be it fact or crap, is talking about physical development kits, not virtual machines. As for wide distribution, the rumor is vague enough that we could be getting a leak from a "trusted partner" or first party, which would certainly give us a longer lead time than that 18 months I quoted. However, trusted partners are usually trusted because they don't leak, and first parties are crazy tight-lipped. It makes more sense to assume that--if you take this rumor as true at all--we're talking about companies like Ubisoft and Activision having a physical development kit in house.

I'm not sure what you're going on about in the middle there, but the only one applying the "logic" that demands this system launch without games if it launches before 2021 is you. Of course it will launch with games. Games are being developed for next gen today, whether next gen hits in 2019, 2021, or beyond. Hell, Square Enix is probably already developing launch games for the PS6's launch, though perhaps not intentionally. =P

So I'm not saying the PS5 will launch in 2019 or won't launch as late as 2021. What I'm saying is, if you take this rumor as fact, and if you accept the common definition for standard industry terms like "dev kit," and if you assume that dev kits will precede the console launch by the usual 18 months (give or take 6), then you can't really turn around and say, "Well of course this means we won't see launch until 2021 because games take 3-4 years to develop."
 
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llien

Member
With AMD sampling (sending small batches of actual CPUs to OEMs to prepare) 7nm chips in 2018 the 2019 launch seems almost inevitable.

25 New Notebooks in the second quarter alone
Hm, where are they... =/

Strong Initial Silicon for Next-Gen 7nm GPU Solutions. Very pleased on initial results
This leak, of, allegedly, Vega20 on 7nm, I guess:
https://videocardz.com/76076/early-amd-vega-20-3dmark11-benchmark-result-emerges

It's slower than 14nm one, but we do not know actual frequency.
 
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Personally I'm hoping for a 2020 launch. For some reason, maybe because of it's slowish start, this gen feels quite short. Plus, 2020 gives me more time to save up for a 4K TV, which seems like it will be an essential part of the kit..
 

Zok310

Banned
If they don't do backwards compatibility, I'm not going to buy Day 1. My digital library has gotten quite large and I don't feel like throwing away all of my games down the toilet because they don't work with the PS5.
I would drop console gaming altogether if there is no BC. Literally every game i bought this gen was digital. BC would mean everyone with a PS4 today would buy a PS5 for the simple fact that they can still play their PS4 games.
Would be a missed opportunity if sony launches without BC, i think it would open up their marketshare to Xbox and PC.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Yeah, no BC would be a real shame as the architectures are so similar it's not as excusable as the PS3 and PS4 being worlds apart, they'll both have 8 cores on the same ISA, and both be GCN based graphics, one will just be dramatically faster in almost every regard, hopefully enough to overcome any nitty gritty architecture level optimizations for the PS4 that don't translate (and most features, like async compute, will translate).

I get the feeling GNM isn't quite as portable as Microsofts Xbox variant of DX12, going off how the S automatically boosted all games while Sony was tepid in doing so at first. But they did get there eventually so hopefully it's portable enough.


This would be the best way to carry on the train that is the PS4, full BC and enhanced performance at that would mean it's a better PS4 that also has its own exclusives and is much more powerful, instead of console sales usually sagging at the end of the generation before the next one maybe this could just pick up the momentum. If there's no BC, it's fighting with the momentum train of the PS4.
 
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I really think BC (with PS4 games, at least) will be on the PS5. Ecosystems have become more important than ever and Sony will want to retain as many of its customers as possible. In addition, digital sales have gone way up this gen, so a lack of BC will mean consumers will be unable to transfer their purchases to the PS5. Sony will lose a lot of goodwill which will hamper the PS5's appeal, especially when Microsoft has done a really good job with its BC program.
 

FranXico

Member
BC needs to happen as it will happen with competition. Only way it does not happen is because Sony wants more monies.

BC actually gives free money because it extends the lifetime of the software. There are plenty of people who don't buy games day one and will consider buying older games if given the opportunity. Remasters actually require additional investment.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
You understand that these chips will appear in PCs yes? There's nothing here that says the chips are intended for Sony or Microsoft.

True, it is. A possibility, but it still signals that AMD is going full steam ahead on 7nm technology and they are on schedule which is positive for consoles expected to use semi-custom derivations of that technology.

Going a bit back on the manufacturing node updates and impacts on release dates...On why the costly 7nm+ (EUV update of TSMC for example... Global Foundries is not doing that much better nor is Samsung... see Apple pushing more and more production to TMSC) is probably not the panacea that would push Sony to wait an additional year or more (EUV is very pricy at the moment and still has issues):
TSMC’s Jump From 7FF To 7FF+ Using EUV Will Demonstrate How Hard It Is To Maintain Gains; 10% Power Efficiency And 20% Density Increase With Little Performance Gain Expected On The N7+ Node

TSMC’s provided critical details for both the N7+ node and 5nm. The fab confirms validation of the N7+’s IP in silicon. The node will set the base for its 7FF+, manufactured using Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography. However, while it confirms implementation, several blocks of the N7+ will not be ready before the end of this year.

Finally, the N7+ will provide only 10% power efficiency and 20% density increase over its predecessors 7FF. Moving towards 5nm, it promises 1.8x density of 7FF, a power reduction of 20% or a performance boost of 15%. EUV will prove critical in this scaling, for both N5 and N7+. Many IP blocks for 5nm will not be validated until next year.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/wccftech.com/tsmc-details-7nm-manufacturing-process-euv/amp/
 
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Toe-Knee

Member
BC actually gives free money because it extends the lifetime of the software. There are plenty of people who don't buy games day one and will consider buying older games if given the opportunity. Remasters actually require additional investment.


But they also have to pay a new licensing fee for the additional platform.
 
But they also have to pay a new licensing fee for the additional platform.

That's rather annoying, I have to say. You'd think the original agreement would be a lifetime of selling the same game (as it is with music and movies), with royalties being offered at the same percentages as before. Well, the licensing world is a (quite unnecessarily) complex beast so there's probably a whole lot more to it.

Regardless, I would've thought everyone involved would be happy with chasing the long tail and being able to sell the games to those who never got to play them, those who now want them as part of their permanent collections, and those who at one point sold them and now want to re-buy and replay them.

But fingers and toes crossed for full PS4 (Pro) backward compatibility. And perhaps a fully working PS2 emulator this time around too.
 

Toe-Knee

Member
That's rather annoying, I have to say. You'd think the original agreement would be a lifetime of selling the same game (as it is with music and movies), with royalties being offered at the same percentages as before. Well, the licensing world is a (quite unnecessarily) complex beast so there's probably a whole lot more to it.

Regardless, I would've thought everyone involved would be happy with chasing the long tail and being able to sell the games to those who never got to play them, those who now want them as part of their permanent collections, and those who at one point sold them and now want to re-buy and replay them.

But fingers and toes crossed for full PS4 (Pro) backward compatibility. And perhaps a fully working PS2 emulator this time around too.


I think that's a big part of why the ps1 classics haven't moved over as the original licence was only for ps3/vita/psp

If they add another platform it would probably be quite expensive. However a lot of those games are in the top of the charts on psn monthly so they could probably make it back from new purchases.
 

Shin

Banned
Beside this guy which I've only seen once on stage at Gamescom or a picture from an interview? Sony hasn't said much else.
Technically it is feasible for them to launch next year, Zen3, 7nm EUV could go into the refresh or "Pro" version some years later.
But then it comes to question what a Pro version could possibly add when your base machine probably is native 4K already.
Do you take your hopefully 1 year lead and skip Zen3 (which I'd hate TBH because it could make a big difference I think) and launch in 2019 or do you go toe to toe in 2020-ish.

We asked Sony Computer Entertainment UK boss Fergal Gara whether the PS4 is in it for the long stretch.
"I think there's reasons to believe that the next cycle might be shorter in markets such as the UK," he said.
"It's probably a sign of the times and how much has changed in seven years, but I think the willingness and the appetite to pick up new technology fast has probably changed quite a bit."
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Beside this guy which I've only seen once on stage at Gamescom or a picture from an interview? Sony hasn't said much else.
Technically it is feasible for them to launch next year, Zen3, 7nm EUV could go into the refresh or "Pro" version some years later.
But then it comes to question what a Pro version could possibly add when your base machine probably is native 4K already.
Do you take your hopefully 1 year lead and skip Zen3 (which I'd hate TBH because it could make a big difference I think) and launch in 2019 or do you go toe to toe in 2020-ish.


I wouldn't mind being rid of Pro versions next round tbh. The Pro and X felt like concessions to 4K TVs getting cheap and mainstream where the base hardware wasn't ready, while I expect the next boxes will stay with 4K displays being 'it' for their lives, that and current PC-res VR, so nothing that throws a wrench in requirements as much that they can't build for from the start.

The Pro and X made things awkward for the true next gen because they already jumped 2-4x on the GPU performance with a die shrink, making the next generations leap appear one fabrication node lower if you look at the .5 boxes.

EUV doesn't sound like enough for a Pro either, it's low double digit gains. It would be a bonus if they could ship the base unit with it, 20% more transistors and 10% less power to further performance, but those aren't mid gen refresh level gains, not till at least 5nm.
 

IceManCat

Member
I predict the PS5 will have the best CPU they can possible put in it while the GPU may be less than the best possible. This way they can upgrade" the GPU for a mid gen recycle. It'll be a lot easier to upgrade a GPU than to upgrade a CPU.
 

GoldenEye98

posts news as their odd job
I predict the PS5 will have the best CPU they can possible put in it while the GPU may be less than the best possible. This way they can upgrade" the GPU for a mid gen recycle. It'll be a lot easier to upgrade a GPU than to upgrade a CPU.
See I think it will be the opposite. The whole selling point of this mid-gen was "better resolution/4K". But I don't think you will have that selling point next mid-gen as 8K ain't going to be in the same position 4K was this gen.

So If anything I figure they would go with CPU upgrade in next mid-gen to sell you "better framerates".
 
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Zannegan

Member
Anybody else think they will "gimp" the new consoles so they can sell "upgraded" ones during a mid gen refresh.

If by "gimp" you mean, go for hardware they can sell at a profit on launch day without going over $500, then probably. There's certainly less pressure to be the absolute best when modern games can run on such a wide range of hardware and you know you can just release an upgraded refresh in three years if the market wants more.

That said, I don't think they'll purposefully go low-powered to make the mid-gen refresh look good. It's more important to impress consumers at the start of a new generation than in the middle. If anything, I think they would intentionally not push the boundaries with their mid-gen refresh to help make their next gen look good.
 

IceManCat

Member
See I think it will be the opposite. The whole selling point of this mid-gen was "better resolution/4K". But I don't think you will have that selling point next mid-gen as 8K ain't going to be in the same position 4K was this gen.

So If anything I figure they would go with CPU upgrade in next mid-gen to sell you "better framerates".



It makes sense and I also think they will sell better frame rates over resolution but the CPU is responsible for so many calculations it will be tough for the developer to code for a much more powerful CPU while maintaining parody with the base model. I think because of this they will continue to focus on the GPU and graphics and maybe offset some of the CPU load over to the GPU
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Anybody else think they will "gimp" the new consoles so they can sell "upgraded" ones during a mid gen refresh.

They aren't going to repeat the loss leading juggernauts again, but neither will want to be the weaker of the two and any deliberate gimp would risk that. I think they'll both do the best they can near at-cost at their target price points, and will end up very similar again for it, maybe with less of a split than PS4/XBO Pro/X. Both will be very afraid of launching the weaker of the two.

Assuming they launch at the same time, unless MS spends another year on the XBO X while waiting to leapfrog the PS5 with newer tech like EUV.

So If anything I figure they would go with CPU upgrade in next mid-gen to sell you "better framerates".

Imo this is even less likely. The baseline will set the standard engines are developed against and target framerates, a faster CPU will be of limited help when everyone coded against X already, whether they were going for 30 or 60fps.

CPUs are also more latency sensitive than GPU workloads (massively parallel and latency insensitive), so any change for a mid-gen refresh is mostly limited to clock bumps within the same uArch.


I've mentioned before but I'd be fine with the next gen forgetting mid gen refreshes all together, we probably won't see a jump past 4K in their lives and a mid gen refresh just squanders a GPU fabrication process shrink the next gen could have used as a further leap forward, and fab nodes shrinks are increasingly hard to get.
 

Dabaus

Banned
Don't know if it adds any validity to the rumors but Marcus Sellers (Twitter dude who said ps5 dev kits are in the wild) correctly called fortnite teaming up with marvel back in late April. For what that's worth :)
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
They aren't going to repeat the loss leading juggernauts again, but neither will want to be the weaker of the two and any deliberate gimp would risk that. I think they'll both do the best they can near at-cost at their target price points, and will end up very similar again for it, maybe with less of a split than PS4/XBO Pro/X. Both will be very afraid of launching the weaker of the two.

Assuming they launch at the same time, unless MS spends another year on the XBO X while waiting to leapfrog the PS5 with newer tech like EUV.



Imo this is even less likely. The baseline will set the standard engines are developed against and target framerates, a faster CPU will be of limited help when everyone coded against X already, whether they were going for 30 or 60fps.

CPUs are also more latency sensitive than GPU workloads (massively parallel and latency insensitive), so any change for a mid-gen refresh is mostly limited to clock bumps within the same uArch.


I've mentioned before but I'd be fine with the next gen forgetting mid gen refreshes all together, we probably won't see a jump past 4K in their lives and a mid gen refresh just squanders a GPU fabrication process shrink the next gen could have used as a further leap forward, and fab nodes shrinks are increasingly hard to get.

Given what people are saying (and the article quoted above), either they go for 5nm EUV and eat the ramp up costs to beat Apple and the likes to it (still early for 2020 possibly) or EUV for 7nm will not buy them an incredible amount of extra performance (quite lacklustre to be fair).
 

Shin

Banned
No tech is worth waiting for and putting said company 1 year behind their competition.
Both of them are most likely doing the same thing, but only closer than it was this generation terms of raw power.
If they launch in 2020 then there's a high chance it's baked on 7nm with EUV and you got your Zen 3 and features after Navi.
I think that's the card they'll play and skip a "Pro/Premium" version because it can't see what it would add beside more R&D cost.
We will be on 4K for at least 2 generations (PS5/PS6) before 8K is possible on a mobile-like chip IMO, but that's just me.
Beside that you also face issues with TV adaptation, it's great to sell something but if people can't use it then it's pointless.
With that in mind I do expect Sony and MS to sell the hardware at a loss but bank hard on software sales, so that's important to have.
Not just at launch but throughout the generation, this last bit is where MS dropped the ball and come next gen they need to have it sorted out.
 
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