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[Ar¢tos]

Flops will be less important next gen. This gen we had very limited power (1.8 - 1.3 tf) but going to next gen there will be little difference between 10 or 12tfs. With games using dynamic res + cb it will be even less noticeable. So I expect them to release at similar price, specs and dates. The difference will be customizations, marketing, exclusives and services.

 

[Nikana]

Flops will be less important next gen. This gen we had very limited power (1.8 - 1.3 tf) but going to next gen there will be little difference between 10 or 12tfs. With games using dynamic res + cb it will be even less noticeable. So I expect them to release at similar price, specs and dates. The difference will be customizations, marketing, exclusives and services.

I remember when this was said about pro vs one X too.

More power makes a difference.

 

[TLZ]

I'm not sure they'll even pull that off. The switch launched 4 years after XBO and PS4 and the thing can still barely do 1080p. A 'super Switch' in 2023 will likely be somewhere between PS4 pro and X, if even that.

It hardly does 0.4tf in 2017. It'll do around 2.5tf in 2023.

 

[bhunachicken]

I'm betting on a spring / early summer 2020 European release (as they tend to trail the US release by a few months).

In that case, I'm starting to put pennies in a jar right now. Actually pound coins. One a day. Should have ~£650 saved by then. That'll be enough to buy a PS5, a couple of games (The Last of Us 2 and Elder Scrolls 6), a bigger HDD, and bag of sweets to eat while I wait for all the software updates to download and install ...

 

[Ar¢tos]

I remember when this was said about pro vs one X too.

More power makes a difference.

The visual difference between X and Pro is small. Most games are still doing CB, but from a slightly higher res. If the difference between 6 and 4tf is small, the difference between 12 and 10 will be even smaller because of diminishing returns. The big jump next gen will be CPU, not GPU.

 

[n0razi]

The visual difference between X and Pro is small. Most games are still doing CB, but from a slightly higher res. If the difference between 6 and 4tf is small, the difference between 12 and 10 will be even smaller because of diminishing returns. The big jump next gen will be CPU, not GPU.

If they are really pushing for VR (baked into silicon)... then you need all the power you can get

 

[mckmas8808]

It hardly does 0.4tf in 2017. It'll do around 2.5tf in 2023.

No way the Switch only has .4 TFs of power. That has to be wrong right? I thought it had about 1.0 TFs of power and was close to the Xbox One.

 

[LordOfChaos]

No way the Switch only has .4 TFs of power. That has to be wrong right? I thought it had about 1.0 TFs of power and was close to the Xbox One.

1Tflop is only from half precision, FP16. You can't use half precision on everything, most tests show about a 10-20% overall uplift for it. Unfortunately "tech" sites that barely understand this stuff compare the 1Tflop directly to the XBO/PS4 regularly creating this misunderstanding.

Switch is indeed 196 Gflops in handheld mode and 390 Gflops docked, using Full precision like everyone else compares.

Just think of it this way, 1Tflop would make it barely below the OG Xbox One, on the same 28nm node the XBO launched on, which runs at 137 watts, while the Switch runs something under 15, there was no way it was barely below the XBO.




The math on it is Shader cores * operations per core per clock (2) * clock speed, TX1 has 256 shaders (1:1 the same as the Switch SoC), Switch clocks are 768MHz docked and 384 undocked, you can go from there.

 

[mckmas8808]

1Tflop is only from half precision, FP16. You can't use half precision on everything, most tests show about a 10-20% overall uplift for it. Unfortunately "tech" sites that barely understand this stuff compare the 1Tflop directly to the XBO/PS4 regularly creating this misunderstanding.

Switch is indeed 196 Gflops in handheld mode and 390 Gflops docked, using Full precision like everyone else compares.

Just think of it this way, 1Tflop would make it barely below the OG Xbox One, on the same 28nm node the XBO launched on, which runs at 137 watts, while the Switch runs something under 15, there was no way it was barely below the XBO.




The math on it is Shader cores * operations per core per clock (2) * clock speed, TX1 has 256 shaders, Switch clocks are 768MHz docked and 384 undocked, you can go from there.

Ah! Thanks. Makes sense. So what happens to people's idea of the Switch in 2020? Do things start "feeling" dated on it? The Switch feels like it should have came out in 2015 or something, just to stay in line with the other console generations.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Ah! Thanks. Makes sense. So what happens to people's idea of the Switch in 2020? Do things start "feeling" dated on it? The Switch feels like it should have came out in 2015 or something, just to stay in line with the other console generations.

Yeah, it launched late for a 28nm node product, launching a few years earlier and it would have seemed even more impressive, or else still in 2017 but using 16/12nm and more shader cores.

But, the flip side to that is for an updated product in 2020, they have more die shrinks down from 28nm to create an even larger power difference, 28nm straight down to 7nm, I believe that could easily double the performance with power savings to spare. Though Nintendos MO is usually to hang one node shrink back from cutting edge, so we'll see.

 

[GoldenEye98]

No way the Switch only has .4 TFs of power. That has to be wrong right? I thought it had about 1.0 TFs of power and was close to the Xbox One.

it has even less in handheld mode.

 

[mckmas8808]

it has even less in handheld mode.

So question to you guys. Does this mean that developers that make games on the Switch have to make sure it works in handheld mode? So does that limit all games on the Switch to run on a 0.2 TF machine in the same way that Xbox One X games are being held back by the OG Xbox One that has 1.3 TFs of power?

 

[LordOfChaos]

So question to you guys. Does this mean that developers that make games on the Switch have to make sure it works in handheld mode? So does that limit all games on the Switch to run on a 0.2 TF machine in the same way that Xbox One X games are being held back by the OG Xbox One that has 1.3 TFs of power?

Yes, though it's also easier to scale graphics for a weaker GPU than it is to alter the fundamental game world with a weaker CPU, the CPU clocks stay the same docked or undocked.

So it's like the Xbox One X and XBO having similar CPUs (30% isn't nothing but it's still Jaguar, but for the same of this comparison lets say they're similar) but one has a much more powerful GPU.

 

[vpance]

If they are really pushing for VR (baked into silicon)... then you need all the power you can get

Eye tracking is the way forwards for high res VR, not brute forcing pixels. No sense in wasting silicon for something that's still niche anyways.

 

[TheMikado]

Yes, though it's also easier to scale graphics for a weaker GPU than it is to alter the fundamental game world with a weaker CPU, the CPU clocks stay the same docked or undocked.

So it's like the Xbox One X and XBO having similar CPUs (30% isn't nothing but it's still Jaguar, but for the same of this comparison lets say they're similar) but one has a much more powerful GPU.

Wouldn't just be easier to use the PS4/pro analogy?

It even works for the same for the most part where Pro simply renders higher rez/framerate. Same game and effects for the most part.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Wouldn't just be easier to use the PS4/pro analogy?

It even works for the same for the most part where Pro simply renders higher rez/framerate. Same game and effects for the most part.

That still has a CPU bump too, even a bit more RAM than the PS4, practically the same analogy apart from the X being further ahead on all fronts

 

[LordOfChaos]

So Nvidia is going in on ray tracing-rasterization hybrid rendering. This is the type of hybrid approach I suggested for the next gen consoles, we're not ready for them to do full ray tracing yet but ray tracing can still help traditional rendering in a lot of ways

https://www.ustream.tv/NVIDIA

 

[Insane Metal]

So Nvidia is going in on ray tracing-rasterization hybrid rendering. This is the type of hybrid approach I suggested for the next gen consoles, we're not ready for them to do full ray tracing yet but ray tracing can still help traditional rendering in a lot of ways

https://www.ustream.tv/NVIDIA

Maybe next-next gen.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Maybe next-next gen.

For the hybrid approach, or full?

If the next gen misses any form of ray acceleration whatsoever it seems like a big miss, since Nvidia is going to ship it in this next GPU generation, and AMD presumably should have an answer in the next year or two too. Again, not going to be the bulk of rendering, but the hardware acceleration can allow ray tracing to correct rasterized graphics and make them better without a full switch.

 

[Insane Metal]

For the hybrid approach, or full?

If the next gen misses any form of ray acceleration whatsoever it seems like a big miss, since Nvidia is going to ship it in this next GPU generation, and AMD presumably should have an answer in the next year or two too.

The hybrid approach. The whole hardware will be aimed at 399$ and even for 2020 I don't see such a GPU being possible at this price tag.

 

[Vtecomega]

I don't know much about specs. How powerful is the PS5 in laymen terms?

Is the PS5 a GTR. Evo or civic? lol

 

[Insane Metal]

I don't know much about specs. How powerful is the PS5 in laymen terms?

Is the PS5 a GTR. Evo or civic? lol

What do you mean? We don't even know how powerful it is yet. Lol

 

[Vtecomega]

What do you mean? We don't even know how powerful it is yet. Lol

Oh, my bad, disregard my comment haha.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Also car analogies don't work, the moving scale for compute moves much faster. PS4 was a family sedan in 2013 and the PS5 will be a family sedan in 2020/whenever lol, except because of the movement of the compute landscape it'll be something like 4-7x more powerful, unlike a car in that time gap.

 

[longdi]

Ps5 amd needs to have some ray tracing hardware, if not, Sony needs to fuck off, they will fail hard.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

DAMN!!

There is still more life for the ps4, i dont understand the rushing.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Yeah, it launched late for a 28nm node product, launching a few years earlier and it would have seemed even more impressive, or else still in 2017 but using 16/12nm and more shader cores.

But, the flip side to that is for an updated product in 2020, they have more die shrinks down from 28nm to create an even larger power difference, 28nm straight down to 7nm, I believe that could easily double the performance with power savings to spare. Though Nintendos MO is usually to hang one node shrink back from cutting edge, so we'll see.

Off topic (might make a thread for it) would a shrink to 7nm allow for a smaller version of the original Switch, as well as a more powerful version of the one we have now?

 

[Imtjnotu]

Ps5 amd needs to have some ray tracing hardware, if not, Sony needs to fuck off, they will fail hard.

 

[Vtecomega]

I'm using this gif next time I need to quote Brendan Schaub.

 

[longdi]

Ms will definitely put ray tracing in nextbox. Ps5 without it, games will look flat and dead besides it. Like 1080p sdr vs 4k 1000nits hdr, probably worse.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Ms will definitely put ray tracing in nextbox. Ps5 without it, games will look flat and dead besides it. Like 1080p sdr vs 4k 1000nits hdr, probably worse.

 

[vpance]

For the hybrid approach, or full?

If the next gen misses any form of ray acceleration whatsoever it seems like a big miss, since Nvidia is going to ship it in this next GPU generation, and AMD presumably should have an answer in the next year or two too. Again, not going to be the bulk of rendering, but the hardware acceleration can allow ray tracing to correct rasterized graphics and make them better without a full switch.

Wait for PS5 Pro.

 

[bitbydeath]

For the hybrid approach, or full?

If the next gen misses any form of ray acceleration whatsoever it seems like a big miss, since Nvidia is going to ship it in this next GPU generation, and AMD presumably should have an answer in the next year or two too. Again, not going to be the bulk of rendering, but the hardware acceleration can allow ray tracing to correct rasterized graphics and make them better without a full switch.

What does ray-trace hardware do exactly?
We've had ray-tracing on non-ray-tracing hardware (PS3/Warhawk) so does it just give it more power or something aimed at that particular aspect?
I would have thought it'd be all software based as opposed to hardware so I'm out of my depth here...

 

[Armorian]

From presentations so far RTX gives us better reflections than SSR, is that a game changer?

 

[joe_zazen]

Ms will definitely put ray tracing in nextbox. Ps5 without it, games will look flat and dead besides it. Like 1080p sdr vs 4k 1000nits hdr, probably worse.

All this and streaming too. MS must have some area 51 shit in the pipe.

 

[vpance]

From presentations so far RTX gives us better reflections than SSR, is that a game changer?

Reflections, shadows, lighting, AA. Def game changer and devs will need to rework their engines to flip from the old rasterization approach.

 

[michaelius]

Ms will definitely put ray tracing in nextbox. Ps5 without it, games will look flat and dead besides it. Like 1080p sdr vs 4k 1000nits hdr, probably worse.

Sorry to break you dream world but both use same AMD technology.

 

[joe_zazen]

Reflections, shadows, lighting, AA. Def game changer and devs will need to rework their engines to flip from the old rasterization approach.

What is the motivation for the change? Like how will it increase sales? Is their a big demand for better reflections , lighting , shadows? All the billion dollar games today like Overwatch, Fortnight, pubg, Minecraft, pokemon in various flavors, gta, etc look low rent to me and people seem happy.

 

[joe_zazen]

Sorry to break you dream world but both use same AMD technology.

Cloud raytracing tho.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Are people really expecting next gen to have full ray tracing lighting? LOL
Maybe PS7 will have it...

 

[Leonidas]

Sorry to break you dream world but both use same AMD technology.

Where has it been confirmed that next-gen Xbox is using AMD?

All that's been said so far of the next-generation Xbox is that MS believes the next-gen Xbox will be the most powerful console box(the same way they declared X to be the most powerful console box, which turned out to be true).

And even if they are using the same AMD technology, both consoles will not have the same capabilities(current gen shows massive performance differences between hardware comparing PS4 Pro and Xbox One X despite using similar AMD tech).

 

[MilkyJoe]

Where has it been confirmed that next-gen Xbox is using AMD?

All that's been said so far of the next-generation Xbox is that MS believes the next-gen Xbox will be the most powerful console box(the same way they declared X to be the most powerful console box, which turned out to be true).

And even if they are using the same AMD technology, both consoles will not have the same capabilities(current gen shows massive performance differences between hardware comparing PS4 Pro and Xbox One X despite using similar AMD tech).

Because this coming gen, right out of the bat, they both know that people want unlimited power in their new console (It mattered in every gen as far back as Amiga Atari ST, that I can remember) There's not going to be any 40% power difference, they will come in 2TF, tops, of one another.

 

[longdi]

Both may likely use amd, but if Sony rush for an early 2019-20 launch without rtx, they will be fucked. Ms is smart enough to wait for 7nm late 2020-21gen2 amd next.

Once you base hardware have no rtx, you be waiting another 5 years to get into the rtx game.

 

[Leonidas]

Because this coming gen, right out of the bat, they both know that people want unlimited power in their new console (It mattered in every gen as far back as Amiga Atari ST, that I can remember) There's not going to be any 40% power difference, they will come in 2TF, tops, of one another.

If that was the goal then both next-gen machines would be $500(or more). I don't think that will be the case.

If one console is $400 and the other is $500 there will be a difference.

 

[MilkyJoe]

If they thought much then both consoles would be $500. I don't think that will be the case.

If one console is $400 and the other is $500 there will be a difference.

I doubt you'll see that too

 

[Leonidas]

I doubt you'll see that too

I just don't see them being similarly powered given price differences in the past and MS now promising the most power. We don't even know if Xbox is using AMD next-gen at this point.

 

[alken]

.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Ms will definitely put ray tracing in nextbox. Ps5 without it, games will look flat and dead besides it. Like 1080p sdr vs 4k 1000nits hdr, probably worse.

That does seem wishful thinking or a joke that fell... flat .

I think raytracing extensions will be part of the Semi-Custom work that AMD is doing for both PS5 and Xbox One Next. Sony could release it with the Pro model, but it would be too much of a paradigm change to go from standard to hybrid rayteacing in one go... they could double or quadruple the raytracing/AI performance in the Pro revision though and I think it is the plan.

 

[Caio]

Where has it been confirmed that next-gen Xbox is using AMD?

All that's been said so far of the next-generation Xbox is that MS believes the next-gen Xbox will be the most powerful console box(the same way they declared X to be the most powerful console box, which turned out to be true).

And even if they are using the same AMD technology, both consoles will not have the same capabilities(current gen shows massive performance differences between hardware comparing PS4 Pro and Xbox One X despite using similar AMD tech).

Maybe because MS lost bad vs Sony and they wanted to show something more powerful at the really end at any cost, one year later(vs PS4 PRO release) ? At the price of a true Next Gen Console ? Shall we call this an achievement ?

 

[Ar¢tos]

Hasn't Nvidia screwed both Sony and MS in the past? I doubt they will give Nvidia another try, specially now that AMD seems to be improving their GPU output. And it's not like there are many alternatives, if MS doesn't use AMD they can only use Nvidia, unless Intel upcoming Gpu line is ready and has goods specs/power consumption /heat.