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[DeepEnigma]

I'm assuming that PS5 launch in late 2019, so everything above 16GB of RAM would be overkill even at 4K i agree that it could have couple of GB more just to compensate for OS. How 10Tflops is weak? remember Tflops doesn't necessary mean powerfull system, in addition you have to have really good architecture, big memory bandwidth, and efficiency, to prevent bottlenecks.

I can agree with this, not to mention 10-12TF will be the baseline for those games, where as right now the baseline for 3rd party is 1.31TF in the Xbox One S, or 1.84TF in the PS4 for it's exclusives (which looks great now).

I can only imagine what 10-12TF baseline will do to games with a much better CPU, double the ram pool as well as at minimum, 3x the memory bandwidth.

 

[prag16]

This is so good looking that I don't even know what to think.

Holy fuckballs. If you told me that Star Wars clip was from TFA, I would have believed you.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Because there's certain hardware that I've been looking forward to having in a console for about 2 years now. And noway do I want the PS5 to miss out of this cool new hardware because they arrived to the scene a year early. I think most of us want some form of.......

- Around15 Teraflops of power.
- At least 24 GBs of RAM
- Some form of ray tracing help/enhancements built into the hardware.
- A Navi GPU with next gen memory
- A strong Ryzen x86 CPU that does BC, yet runs games better than the current PS4s weaker CPU.

Note how the super latest beasts for “Professionals” that is not even out available for purchase yet promises 16 TFLOPS and maybe be in high supply only towards the end of the year... 15 TFLOPS of usable (and full FP32) power only 12 months later in a small console package is no small feat... heck even 24 months later (going from dedicated big graphics card worth like a grand to a portion of a single chip in a small low power box...) .

 

[Dabaus]

It will probably be somewhere between 10-12 terraflops, an 8 -12 core CPU, around 16 Gigs of GDDR 6 Ram with 2 dedicated to the OS, backwards compatible with PS4 game and select ps3, ps2, and ps1 will be added to the store monthly. 399 Launch Price in Late November 2019 or Sometime early 2020. That's my guess.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm assuming that PS5 launch in late 2019, so everything above 16GB of RAM would be overkill even at 4K i agree that it could have couple of GB more just to compensate for OS. How 10Tflops is weak? remember Tflops doesn't necessary mean powerfull system, in addition you have to have really good architecture, big memory bandwidth, and efficiency, to prevent bottlenecks.

It's not weak, but I want a PS5 system that's a quality system in the year 2023 as well. And no way 10 TFs is enough. 12 TFs I'd take if it's well balanced and has amazingly high memory bandwidth of course. I'd like 12 TFs to be the minimum.

OH! I'm assuming the PS5 is coming out in 2020 by the way. That's important for what my opinions and why my hopes are the way they are.

 

[NickFire]

It's not weak, but I want a PS5 system that's a quality system in the year 2023 as well. And no way 10 TFs is enough. 12 TFs I'd take if it's well balanced and has amazingly high memory bandwidth of course. I'd like 12 TFs to be the minimum.

OH! I'm assuming the PS5 is coming out in 2020 by the way. That's important for what my opinions and why my hopes are the way they are.

Don''t worry, they got you covered with PS5 pro.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's not weak, but I want a PS5 system that's a quality system in the year 2023 as well. And no way 10 TFs is enough. 12 TFs I'd take if it's well balanced and has amazingly high memory bandwidth of course. I'd like 12 TFs to be the minimum.

OH! I'm assuming the PS5 is coming out in 2020 by the way. That's important for what my opinions and why my hopes are the way they are.

Unless there is some big big revolution in semiconductors you should expect performance to grow slower and slower in terms of say “performanceImprovement / year” speed and Sony fully expect to sell a PS5 Pro at some point before preparing PS6.

Even on PC’s people are starting to see this, but it is especially strong on small console boxes. Sure you could propose much bigger and bulkier console that draw a lot more power and that the base price of consoles rises to $599-699 as that could give it an unexpected for console cycles performance bump, but it is a magic trick that you cannot keep pulling off over and over and over before your consoles are like $1,200 behemoths .

 

[michaelius]

I can agree with this, not to mention 10-12TF will be the baseline for those games, where as right now the baseline for 3rd party is 1.31TF in the Xbox One S, or 1.84TF in the PS4 for it's exclusives (which looks great now).

I can only imagine what 10-12TF baseline will do to games with a much better CPU, double the ram pool as well as at minimum, 3x the memory bandwidth.

If we assume 1,84TF as baseline for 1080p @ 30 fps then you would need:

around 4 TF for 60 fps@1080p
around 8TF for 30 fps@4K native
around 16 TF for 60 fps@4k native

just for games looking like PS4 exclusives

Even using CB we have
around 4-5 TF for Cross Bordered 4K@30fps (something like Horizon or other PS4Pro enhanced games)
around 8-10 TF for same CB 60 fps gaming

 

[DeepEnigma]

If we assume 1,84TF as baseline for 1080p @ 30 fps then you would need:

around 4 TF for 60 fps@1080p
around 8TF for 30 fps@4K native
around 16 TF for 60 fps@4k native

just for games looking like PS4 exclusives

Even using CB we have
around 4-5 TF for Cross Bordered 4K@30fps (something like Horizon or other PS4Pro enhanced games)
around 8-10 TF for same CB 60 fps gaming

I'm okay with this, you also have to take into account that the higher memory bandwidth and CPU will boost frame rates as well as the rendering pipeline for crowd densities, physics, AI, etc..

That standard math just applies due to the Jaguar cores as well as the current memory bandwidth does it not? Since even in the Pro and X units it's still a Jaguar core. The Xs primary advantage is pretty much the memory bandwidth over the Pro.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm okay with this, you also have to take into account that the higher memory bandwidth and CPU will boost frame rates as well as the rendering pipeline for crowd densities, physics, AI, etc..

That standard math just applies due to the Jaguar cores as well as the memory beenbandwidth currently does it not? Since even in the Pro and X units it's still a Jaguar core. The Xs primary advantage is the memory bandwidth pretty much over the Pro.

Agreed, but even then I do not see the rendering costs (necessarily) scaling linearly with resolutions (and I see dynamic resolution as well as checkerboarding as well as other inventive techniques being used still next generation for the most intensive titles ) as an improved look may be obtained increasing the resolution of different buffers (modern frames are essentially many sub-frames composited together... layers of effects mixed / composited) in different ways (not just 4x for everything to put it concisely).

 

[mckmas8808]

Agreed, but even then I do not see the rendering costs scaling linearly with resolutions (and I see dynamic resolution as well as checkerboarding as well as other inventive techniques being used still next generation for the most intensive titles ) as an improved look may be obtained increasing the resolution of different buffers (modern frames are essentially many sub-frames composited together... layers of effects mixed / composited) in different ways (not just 4x for everything to put it concisely).

Hmmmm.....never knew or thought about this. So it may not be as clean as a native image, but close enough that we can really tell?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Hmmmm.....never knew or thought about this. So it may not be as clean as a native image, but close enough that we can really tell?

It depends on the game and where people want to spend their budget on. Also, part of generating the final image is resolution related (100% or less of the screen resolution target), but if you spend a decent amount of time processing simulation/transforming and tesselating geometry, for example, that cost does not go up just because your resolution is now that much higher (part of the GPU work may not be resolution dependent).

We have native 4K games with more detail on Xbox One X than they had on the 1080p PS4, which means the supposition that it is not (necessarily) just a matter of simply taking a PS4 game and multiplying the console shading power by 4 to run it in 4K was kind of already proven .

 

[LordOfChaos]

Do you know what framerate it was running at on the Quadro RTX?

24FPS I believe. Still impressive to already be converting that type of massive ray traced scene to a (large) block of hardware on a single GPU, within one generational jump.

I'm maintaining my position that if the next gen of consoles doesn't have ray tracing acceleration, it's going to be a miss, as the PC side of things will increasingly take more advantage of ever more powerful ray tracing hardware.

 

[DeepEnigma]

24FPS I believe. Still impressive to already be converting that type of massive ray traced scene to a (large) block of hardware on a single GPU, within one generational jump.

I'm maintaining my position that if the next gen of consoles doesn't have ray tracing acceleration, it's going to be a miss, as the PC side of things will increasingly take more advantage of ever more powerful ray tracing hardware.

I could have sworn I remember Cerny talking about ray tracing applications in one of his talks in the past, I may be misremembering but I'll have to look it up.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I could have sworn I remember Cerny talking about ray tracing applications in one of his talks in the past, I may be misremembering but I'll have to look it up.

He was saying devs were saying they didn't want it!

Drawing a lesson from the PS3, “they didn’t want exotic,” Cerny said. “If there was a GPU that could do real-time ray-tracing [a sophisticated technique used in ultra-realistic graphics], they didn’t want it for the PS4.” Ray-tracing would have been fascintating, Cerny said, but it would have forced game developers to throw out all they had learned from the last generation of graphics.

https://venturebeat.com/2013/07/01/cerny-3-ps4/

Bloody fickle devs!

 

[DeepEnigma]

He was saying devs were saying they didn't want it!



https://venturebeat.com/2013/07/01/cerny-3-ps4/

Bloody fickle devs!

Oh, that's what it was. I think it was the fact that around the time that they were doing R&D for the PS4, and questioning devs with what they want, there was really no ray racing hardware with the common x86 GPUs at the time. It would have had to be an exotic dedicated GPU setup.

Now that it can be done on both Nvidia and ATI, I'm sure things have changed from six or seven years ago in the early stages of dev polling. Time will tell I guess.

 

[longdi]

Note how the super latest beasts for “Professionals” that is not even out available for purchase yet promises 16 TFLOPS and maybe be in high supply only towards the end of the year... 15 TFLOPS of usable (and full FP32) power only 12 months later in a small console package is no small feat... heck even 24 months later (going from dedicated big graphics card worth like a grand to a portion of a single chip in a small low power box...) .

Vega 7nm is supposed to have 20tflops by this year too. There is rumor why amd is silent on navi. Because they are focus on ps5. Which explains both the silence and sony early launch.

I wonder if rtx is outta the blue from Nvidia. That amd and intel weren't expecting to be possible so soon. I hope amd have something the same for navi.

With rtx cores, building a console soc is not so simple of putting more 'traditional' cores now. So you can have a ps5 with more raytracing power and slightly upgraded normal rendering cores. Which im fine with, just 25% more rendering than 1x but with 3grays! Rtx cores are probably smaller and efficient than traditional cores since they are doing fixed function like tasks

 

[Eteric Rice]

I think people need to reign in their expectations a bit. I remember similar talk about the PS4 being a monster, when in fact it was a lot weaker than people were expecting. These things are in small cases and have to fit under an entertainment center without overheating. Price is also a limiting factor.

 

[Bernkastel]

Nextgen wont be about hardware, it will defined by VR.

My dream would be a Vapor Cooled PS5 launching in 3 years using a 3nm Zen 3+ 3Ghz 3x3 core CPU, 30GBs of 3D Stacked HBM3, a 3TB SSHD and 30 TFs of GPU Horsepower.

I want it to launch alongside an optional 4k per each eye with eye tracking, foveated rendering, OLED, 120fps wireless VR headset with a 180 degree FOV along with haptic gloves and haptic underwear for Ready Player One’s OASIS levels of gaming immersion and market domination. They could simply buy Pimax since they already have a 8k VR headset with these specs (including a 200 degree fov) in the beta testing phase.

Here is a great article on haptic underwear... https://www.futuristspeaker.com/bus...-when-our-technologies-become-truly-wearable/


Lets include eye tracking (and foveated rendering) as a next gen goal as well

At 399 launching exclusively in Narnia.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I just don't see Sony waiting until 2020 to release the Ps5.

Why? They are selling lots of ps4 and will really start making more money now. It will only come if they see some kind of threat to that money.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Can't wait for the river of tears of disappointment when next gen arrives, If people are really expecting 15tf+, 24gb+ ram and Ray tracing for 400€-500€. I recommend taking a Xanax for the reveal.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Why? They are selling lots of ps4 and will really start making more money now. It will only come if they see some kind of threat to that money.

MS is obviously going to release something next year and the tech gap will be noticeable. Maybe.

 

[Trogdor1123]

MS is obviously going to release something next year and the tech gap will be noticeable. Maybe.

I really doubt Ms will do that. They just launched the X. It would look really bad to just launch something new right away. Imo anyway

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

They did hint at a new xbox at E3 friend.

 

[mckmas8808]

I think people need to reign in their expectations a bit. I remember similar talk about the PS4 being a monster, when in fact it was a lot weaker than people were expecting. These things are in small cases and have to fit under an entertainment center without overheating. Price is also a limiting factor.

This is LITERALLY the exact opposite of what happen lol. The PS4 is stronger than what people were expecting.

Can't wait for the river of tears of disappointment when next gen arrives, If people are really expecting 15tf+, 24gb+ ram and Ray tracing for 400€-500€. I recommend taking a Xanax for the reveal.

I love this post because he's talking about people like me. I'd set the over/under at 12.1 TFs of console power. I personally have the over. I think the PS5 will be closer to 15 TFs of power, than 10 TFs of power.

 

[demigod]

Why? They are selling lots of ps4 and will really start making more money now. It will only come if they see some kind of threat to that money.

The same could be said for the 360, look what happened with the Xbox One.

I really doubt Ms will do that. They just launched the X. It would look really bad to just launch something new right away. Imo anyway

If they weren't worried about the competition they wouldn't announce it at E3. They won't allow the PS5 to release 6+months before theirs, you can book it.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Nvidia showed pretty impressive real time ray tracing graphics in their latest demo.

NOTE: I put the video at the time of the new demo.


I think the AI acceleration is also important, as it can not only be used to accelerate raytracing and reduce computational costs, but it can also be used for upscaling.

 

[Darius87]

I love this post because he's talking about people like me. I'd set the over/under at 12.1 TFs of console power. I personally have the over. I think the PS5 will be closer to 15 TFs of power, than 10 TFs of power.

There's no chance it's gonna be around 15Tflops it would require to have GPU at 2GHz clock with 56cu to achieve that even using 7nm that's a chellenge for console, realistically it should be bellow 12Tflops, who thinks it's gonna be above are wishful thinkers.

 

[Tarkus98]

They did hint at a new xbox at E3 friend.

Yes they did but I believe the hint included a 2020 date thrown around in there somewhere.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Like it already is, but more of it.

Hold on!!!! They said this Star Wars demo was running on 4 Titan Xs connected together making it as powerful as 16 PS4s connected to each other all at once.

No they did it on 4 volta gpus which each is about 14TF which means 14x4=56 so about 28 PS4s

They said yesterday, at siggraph, it now runs on a single turing card.

 

[Ar¢tos]

There's no chance it's gonna be around 15Tflops it would require to have GPU at 2GHz clock with 56cu to achieve that even using 7nm that's a chellenge for console, realistically it should be bellow 12Tflops, who thinks it's gonna be above are wishful thinkers.

I think none of those that expect 15tf, 24gb+ ram etc, considers the price of those things, price of proper cooling, power consumption, heat produced and, above all, wafer and die size that is the most limiting factor.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Note how the super latest beasts for “Professionals” that is not even out available for purchase yet promises 16 TFLOPS and maybe be in high supply only towards the end of the year... 15 TFLOPS of usable (and full FP32) power only 12 months later in a small console package is no small feat... heck even 24 months later (going from dedicated big graphics card worth like a grand to a portion of a single chip in a small low power box...) .

Nvidia has had it good like intel once did. Do not be surprised if they overcharge for their products given they've had the performance edge for quite a bit.

That does not stop amd from releasing a similar or superior product for a far lower price, not guaranteed they will but it is a possibility. Just as happened with ryzen on the cpu market.

I think none of those that expect 15tf, 24gb+ ram etc, considers the price of those things, price of proper cooling, power consumption, heat produced and, above all, wafer and die size that is the most limiting factor.

A gpu can be larger and cheaper if it is MCM, although I know the rumors now are it won't be MCM. By being larger it can run at lower clockspeed providing more energy efficiency more performance per watt and more performance overall while running quite cool.

 

[LordOfChaos]

He was saying devs were saying they didn't want it!



https://venturebeat.com/2013/07/01/cerny-3-ps4/

Bloody fickle devs!

Can't wait for the river of tears of disappointment when next gen arrives, If people are really expecting 15tf+, 24gb+ ram and Ray tracing for 400€-500€. I recommend taking a Xanax for the reveal.

Wouldn't have been a worthwhile use of die space in 2013, but times change, maybe dev opinions have too.

I'm not suggesting next gen consoles will anywhere near approach fully ray traced games, but the next few years are going to be marked by ray tracing addons to PC gaming, such as Hairworks/Gameworks are add ons. Using ray tracing in small amounts can help fix up traditional raster graphics, as the DF video I posted showed already happens in very small amounts in some games.

What Geforce RTX and any AMD answer to it will do is allow more of it in PC gaming, and the PS5 should stick around for at least ~6 years while that trend grows in PC. So I really do think it should have /some/ acceleration of it, so it can use those features, even to a reduced degree. If the next gen consoles miss that, it would almost be like the last whole generation missing out on something as substantial as GPGPU or something.

This is LITERALLY the exact opposite of what happen lol. The PS4 is stronger than what people were expecting.

Yeah I was going to say, didn't we know what the PS4 would be to a T, but the 8GB of GDDR5 was the sole surprise that blew some pants off?

 

[prag16]

Can't wait for the river of tears of disappointment when next gen arrives, If people are really expecting 15tf+, 24gb+ ram and Ray tracing for 400€-500€. I recommend taking a Xanax for the reveal.

Especially when people are also (no idea if it's the same people, but I guarantee there's overlap) adamant that the release date will be by late 2019, and there's NO WAY MSFT and Sony will wait until 2020.

Yeah I was going to say, didn't we know what the PS4 would be to a T, but the 8GB of GDDR5 was the sole surprise that blew some pants off?

We didn't know anything this far out. People earlier on were expecting more than what we got especially on the CPU side iirc. The 8GB GDDR5 was the one real pleasant surprise.

 

[Tarin02543]

Has AMD technology in house that is equivalent to RTX?

 

[Michele]

I'm surprised this slightly controversial thread is still being discussed, seeing as it was Marcus Sellars who said that.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It is that time again for the endless GamingBolt console rumbling posts...

PS5 And Xbox Scarlett Should Have ‘More Performance, More Memory, Faster Loading Times’, Says Dev

 

[Ke0]

Has AMD technology in house that is equivalent to RTX?

Probably in the early stages of R&D, I highly doubt they were anywhere as far along as Nvidia was.

 

[KingT731]

I don't think people understand how much work is put on the weak jaguar cores in the PS4/XB1..much of the improvement next gen will be having a modern CPU which should significantly free up GPUs

 

[Airbus Jr]

Can't wait for the river of tears of disappointment when next gen arrives, If people are really expecting 15tf+, 24gb+ ram and Ray tracing for 400€-500€. I recommend taking a Xanax for the reveal.

Console generation jump are usually bigger than what people thought it is

Just observe the jump from ps1-ps2-ps3-ps4

When people heard about PS4 having 1,8 teraflops in 2013 alot of people are actually shook

Now the same question asked to the same people the answer might be different and it's considered as underpowered

 

[Dabaus]

I'm surprised this slightly controversial thread is still being discussed, seeing as it was Marcus Sellars who said that.

Heres the thing, There was the semi accurate article back in April that has a track record for these kinds of things that said that PS5 would be based on Navi, Use a Ryzen CPU, and that dev kits have already been sent out. A little after E3 I believe it was Bloomberg had their tech guy write about how he has it on good authority that Sony is co developing Navi with AMD. And for what its worth Marcus sellers has a pretty good track record. Also Infinity Wrd, the folks whose call of duty is due next year, is hiring for next gen systems.


So far all leaks and rumors have been consistent. AMD is the manufacture, Using Navi Architecture, Ryzen CPU, and coming sooner than people think, so probably 2019. Compile that with the fact that Bethesda, Sqaure Enix, Infinity Ward, and probably a few others have already admitted to begin making next gen games.

 

[Liamario]

PS5 can't come soon enough. Not interested in 4k, but would love all games to at least run at 1080p 60fps.

 

[longdi]

Im perfectly ok with running next gen at 1440p but with 4000nits HDR mastering and RTX.
It is worrying AMD has shown nothing similar to RTX.

 

[longdi]

Outdoor ray tracing using just one RTX6000, 2 years more to trickle down and optimise for a $399 box, granted AMD have something similar..

 

[Ar¢tos]

Console generation jump are usually bigger than what people thought it is

Just observe the jump from ps1-ps2-ps3-ps4

When people heard about PS4 having 1,8 teraflops in 2013 alot of people are actually shook

Now the same question asked to the same people the answer might be different and it's considered as underpowered

8tf is more than enough for me. If 1.8tf manage to please me, 8tf is way more than enough to keep me happy.
But i'm one of the rare people that prefer gameplay over graphics. Flashy particle effects are nice, but i can easily live without them if the gameplay+story are good enough (ex: Thimbleweed Park, Persona 5, Night in the Woods, etc).

 

[Airbus Jr]

8tf is more than enough for me. If 1.8tf manage to please me, 8tf is way more than enough to keep me happy.
But i'm one of the rare people that prefer gameplay over graphics. Flashy particle effects are nice, but i can easily live without them if the gameplay+story are good enough (ex: Thimbleweed Park, Persona 5, Night in the Woods, etc).

You know the Vega card can produce more than 12 tf right?

Navi should be superior to that

Nextgen console should be more future proof to anticipate nextgen gaming

A console with 2020/21 technology only have 2 tf upgrade than the one with 2016 tech?

Why settle for less when you can get more?

 

[Toe-Knee]

Im perfectly ok with running next gen at 1440p but with 4000nits HDR mastering and RTX.
It is worrying AMD has shown nothing similar to RTX.

Gran Turismo sport is mastered to 10k
Already

 

[Ar¢tos]

You know the Vega card can produce more than 12 tf right?

Navi should be superior to that

Nextgen console should be more future proof to anticipate nextgen gaming

A console with 2020/21 technology only have 2 tf upgrade than the one with 2016 tech?

Why settle for less when you can get more?

12 tf , but what's the power consumption and how much heat it produces?
A console version of any chip is considerably nerfed in comparison to a PC one because of that.

 

[Michele]

Heres the thing, There was the semi accurate article back in April that has a track record for these kinds of things that said that PS5 would be based on Navi, Use a Ryzen CPU, and that dev kits have already been sent out. A little after E3 I believe it was Bloomberg had their tech guy write about how he has it on good authority that Sony is co developing Navi with AMD. And for what its worth Marcus sellers has a pretty good track record. Also Infinity Wrd, the folks whose call of duty is due next year, is hiring for next gen systems.


So far all leaks and rumors have been consistent. AMD is the manufacture, Using Navi Architecture, Ryzen CPU, and coming sooner than people think, so probably 2019. Compile that with the fact that Bethesda, Sqaure Enix, Infinity Ward, and probably a few others have already admitted to begin making next gen games.

I see, the leaks/rumors so far has been consistent with what are we told now, thanks for the information. I don't trust Marcus Sellars because he's a liar, but I guess he was partially right.

 

[thelastword]

Where has it been confirmed that next-gen Xbox is using AMD?

All that's been said so far of the next-generation Xbox is that MS believes the next-gen Xbox will be the most powerful console box(the same way they declared X to be the most powerful console box, which turned out to be true).

And even if they are using the same AMD technology, both consoles will not have the same capabilities(current gen shows massive performance differences between hardware comparing PS4 Pro and Xbox One X despite using similar AMD tech).

Anybody would have told you that coming one year later at $100 more would net you a more powerful system. This is not a trend with MS, its was an expectation,perhaps even an expectation at $400 1 year later, but even that was not reality. All told, a system missing Vega features and lacking in Custom engineering mind you compared to the system released 1 year earlier.

For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware.....even the differences in the PRO vs XBONEX 1 year later at a markup, suggests this as well....

I think people need to reign in their expectations a bit. I remember similar talk about the PS4 being a monster, when in fact it was a lot weaker than people were expecting. These things are in small cases and have to fit under an entertainment center without overheating. Price is also a limiting factor.

If anything, the opposite happened. Queue some old threads on GAF when there was speculation on PS4's 8GB of Ram, it's the same sentiment you get in this thread by and large. People thought persons were on drugs, it would be impossible et al.....

Look at this conversation now, folk are still imagining current systems and architectures with higher TF counts and basing next gen expectations or lack thereof based on that, so hence their disbelief on how said systems will be cooled etc....In truth, a PS5 in 2020 may even be based on 7nm+ or even 5nm, so a a much reduced power draw on top of new architecture or new hardware cores that offsets how things are traditionally rendered (raytracing is one, maybe even specific hardware for A.I).....

In essence, looking at current Vega AIO powerdraw at 13.7TF does not paint an accurate picture of how powerful or power efficient we can get 18-24TF in 2020 under new architecture at 7nm or 5nm. Things evolve, nodes are getting more compact, coolers are getting much better, processes are getting better. Current Vega architecture should not be used as a measuring stick to tell the future in the face of many evolving technologies.

Even Vega is going through some changes which will improve perf at a much lower powerdraw, Vega 7nm is already a thing and we can expect 20.9TF or more with it this year.....The NUC's in early 2019 will be very powerful on 7nm, so I don't see how persons believe that a PS5 in late 2020 is only going to have 16GB of ram or push only 10-12TF. If Vega 7nm is pushing north of 20+TF this year or early next year, then Navi will push much more than that when it launches....Even a mid gen Navi GPU should be 24TF at minimum in 2020...