Monocle
Member
You're stating the banal. Of course something happened. His point, which I agree with, is that the outcome didn't live up to all the interesting stuff that came before.
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Rust monologues in True Detective allegedly lifted from obscure author
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RockAction
Member
its not what you steal its how you steal it, if you create something compelling out of something else thats fine
interesting he name checks Emil Cioran and people are discussing plagarism as David Johansen of New York Dolls out right stole entire lines and titles of Cioran for lyrics
"We die in proportion,
to words that we fling around
Talk to me baby
talk to me now"
see also Temptation to Exist (also the title of one of Cioran's books);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHiYGxOFHVs
i only noticed it reading Emil Cioran after Johansen mentioned him in an interview and started to notice entire sentences were lifted
as people have stated these ideas are ages old and it sounds like they were direct homages
interesting he name checks Emil Cioran and people are discussing plagarism as David Johansen of New York Dolls out right stole entire lines and titles of Cioran for lyrics
"We die in proportion,
to words that we fling around
Talk to me baby
talk to me now"
see also Temptation to Exist (also the title of one of Cioran's books);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHiYGxOFHVs
i only noticed it reading Emil Cioran after Johansen mentioned him in an interview and started to notice entire sentences were lifted
as people have stated these ideas are ages old and it sounds like they were direct homages
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Guys I just found out Tarantino stole things from older films!!
I feel like they ducked the supernatural direction the show was starting to swerve toward.
"It's time, isn't it? The black stars. Black stars rise. I know what happens next. I saw you in my dream. You're in Carcosa now. With me. He sees you. You'll do this again. Time is a flat circle."
"It's time, isn't it? The black stars. Black stars rise. I know what happens next. I saw you in my dream. You're in Carcosa now. With me. He sees you. You'll do this again. Time is a flat circle."
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Well the killer was into some macabre mythology... But that needn't mean he actually had supernatural powers.
They definitely hinted at a kind of surreality in the themes of the show... But I personally didn't think it would ever pay off with literal magic.
Monocle
Member
Knowing the outcome, the show's implications of supernatural mystery seem like cheap misdirection. What was the point of all that mythology? To give a more or less conventional murder case some theatrical savor? What a letdown.
To continue the thought in my earlier post, Rust's nihilism was fascinating. The show burned his most interesting trait at the altar of feel-good vibes. It felt like a condescending pat on the back for the audience. "Don't worry, the meanie nihilist who made fun of religion doesn't really feel that way in the end."
ZiZ
Member
that final line was taken from a comic book:
http://www.vulture.com/2014/03/true-detective-finale-comics-alan-moore-homage.html
After describing his near-death experience, Rust tells Marty he's been thinking about the stars and how they've reminded him that there's an eternal battle going on between light and darkness. Marty's pessimistic about light's chances (we've bolded the lines to pay particular attention to for the comparison):
After Rust convinces Marty to haul him out of the hospital, Rust presents a counterargument, offering the final dialogue of the season:
the comic:
http://www.vulture.com/2014/03/true-detective-finale-comics-alan-moore-homage.html
To amplify the setting with a bizarre, off-kilter tone and set an otherwise largely straightforward, procedural detective story against a surrealistic backdrop. I don't know why it had to have plot implications to be meaningful.
Tone and symbolism are major parts of storytelling, and a notable part of True Detective's allure is the sense of disorientation and unease it evokes in the viewer.
Extra Sauce
Member
Didn't Pizzolato credit the author already?
If a TV character expresses the same views as Socrates, does that mean the TV writer committed plagiarism? I don't think so.
If a TV character expresses the same views as Socrates, does that mean the TV writer committed plagiarism? I don't think so.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Yeah, but tone usually means something. I'm just grabbing names from thin air now, but Oldboy had a great tone that presented the themes of isolation, hopelessness, revenge, emptiness, tragedy. I didn't find the tone of True Detective to match the plot at all, or to enhance it anyway. It was enjoyable to watch, but ultimately I was frustrated at the lack of direction. (And I'm a guy that watched Treme.)
And what symbols were there that had any meaning? What was "him that eat time" all about, and all that occult nonsense? What was with the hillbilly speech about all this has happened before and will happen again? Murder? Child abuse? Yeah, it does, but I wasn't particularly stricken by the revelation.
I don't know. I love the opening theme and I loved watching Rust on screen and I loved Hart's stupidity when it came to his relationships. Those bits existed in a vacuum, though, and it would've been more satisfying if they were integrated into the plot.
Worst plagiarist ever.
CartridgeBlower
Member
The tone reflected Rust's character perfectly throughout the show, including his full arc. It was an extension of him that let the audience constantly and better understand him. Rarely has it been used better in television than it was in TD.
What supernatural? It's just him saying that Rust hasn't stopped anything, the murders will continue, and Rust will be drawn back into it inevitably. He phrases it like some it's some magic ritual because he's a crazy occultist.
But he never really felt that way in the beginning either. Rust's nihilistic worldview was always just a coping mechanism for dealing with the death of his daughter and the disintegration of his family, and I think people called this from the very beginning (or at least, I know I did :lol).
The point of his monologues isn't that Rust is right, but that he's not all that different from the people he criticizes for believing the exact opposite: that these belief sets are just justifications for your own behavior. Rust doesn't have to do anything to improve his own life as long as he keeps clinging to the idea that none of it matters anyway. His come to Jesus moment at the end isn't about "Rust found religion, the afterlife is real, praise the lord!" but that he actually has to do something constructive with his life now. Being a nihilist is fine, but using nihilism to deny yourself an actual life isn't, and that's what Rust is confronted with at the end.
Just because the final message of the show isn't "There's no meaning to anything, now despair" doesn't mean there was no follow through on the story's themes or Rust's characterization.
Honestly, I thought they were beginning to hint that Rust's hallucinations might have been have been more supernatural in nature and that he was seeing real things that others weren't able to. The birds forming the symbol, for one. And I thought that the words Reggie spoke to Rust about time being a flat circle were words that Rust himself had earlier spoken, implying there was something supernatural at work.
These sound like conversations my friends and I had as seniors in high school. Not that they're not accurate or insightful, just that anyone who has read some Vonnegut, Sartre, and Dawkins can come up with these ideas. I haven't seen the show yet, so maybe there is a lot more (like people mentioning tone) that was lifted.
SCULLIBUNDO
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Brawndo Addict
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My main problem with the ending was that I didn't buy the spontaneity of Rust's turn. He never struck me as a guy who was just a near-death experience away from getting better, particularly because of all the mental hallucinations he suffered as a result of drug use. For him not to acknowledge, even just briefly, the doubt someone in his position would have felt about the experience felt cheap. Had it been about him wanting to believe despite knowing it may have been just 'manufactured' would have been more compelling.
I also think they didn't quite understand the implications of how they ended the show. Nic specifically said in post finale interviews that Rust has moved "like a few inches on the spectrum" and that the final line was not metaphorical but merely a description of physics. There's no way in hell that final line wasn't decided upon early and no one is gonna buy any bullshit about it being literal only. I mean, from a physics standpoint the universe is only expanding and getting more dark if you think about it, stars are forming less often not more. And treating Nihilism as a quantitative value and Rust moving a few units over is wrong, it's more like going from zero to a finite number or from "off" to "on". That's not a minor change ,that's a "I believe in nothing" to "I believe in something", as opposed to "I believe in some things" and now "I believe in slightly more".
I'm not saying they couldn't have ended it that way, but that kind of change was much more significant than they were willing to give credit. Working through the doubts and skepticism Rust should have had would make it feel far more realistic and cathartic.
Reposting what I wrote in the other thread, explaining why this might be considered plagiarism.
Plagiarism is academic dishonesty. The problem isn't that Ligotti's work was used in the show it is that the creator didn't openly acknowledge that Rust's worldview was based on the works of an unknown philosopher-novelist. I suppose the flip side to that is no one would expect credit to be given if a character was espousing the philosophy of Descartes or Locke because these are well known so easier for the audience to pick up on.
The more sinister part is that Pizzolotto tried to hide his sources to present the work as wholly his own ideas, using his mainstream media to claim the work of people working in a more obscure medium. The bit that made me think that this wasn't above board is the evasiveness of admitting the references in interviews, even when explicitly asked.
The easiest way to get around issues like this is to reference influences within the show, even something as subtle as a Ligotti book on Rust's desk would be enough in the age of analysing and over-analysing TV shows.
Plagiarism is academic dishonesty. The problem isn't that Ligotti's work was used in the show it is that the creator didn't openly acknowledge that Rust's worldview was based on the works of an unknown philosopher-novelist. I suppose the flip side to that is no one would expect credit to be given if a character was espousing the philosophy of Descartes or Locke because these are well known so easier for the audience to pick up on.
The more sinister part is that Pizzolotto tried to hide his sources to present the work as wholly his own ideas, using his mainstream media to claim the work of people working in a more obscure medium. The bit that made me think that this wasn't above board is the evasiveness of admitting the references in interviews, even when explicitly asked.
The easiest way to get around issues like this is to reference influences within the show, even something as subtle as a Ligotti book on Rust's desk would be enough in the age of analysing and over-analysing TV shows.
Circle Jerk
Member
Some of those lines are nearly identical. I honestly don't know what definition of plagiarism the rest of you are working from, but even if you say "yea this guy influenced me" using direct or barely changed lines is still plagiarism. You could argue if it's done well enough to also count as an homage to the original author, or a reflection on their works, but straight up taking lines (which let's be real, this happened with the final episode as well as mentioned above, so this isn't just a one author thing) makes the homage defence more hazy.
I think part of that is the religiousness of the endings. Rust tells us for almost the whole show that he questions the morality of human existence but at the end his experience turns him towards God. In Lost they all meet up in a church celebrating all religions and move into an afterlife.
To put it mildly most people who consume these type of shows and especially those who write about them on the internet are more likely to be agnostic or atheist and hostile to religion in general. So their thought is to automatically reject any conclusion that relies upon a religious foundation. Rust betrayed them when he had a coming to Jesus moment because they had accepted him as their proxy in the story, he was a badass nihilist that these people admired, there is only death. Then he switch on them, basically rejecting the beliefs of the vocal audience and accepting faith. The outcry in Lost wasn't that they failed to answer the central questions, it was that it was the answer that fans didn't want.
Anton Sugar
Member
This. There are rules and shit.
Agreed. There's still a lot to admire, though.
There appears to be a few lines that are almost straight lifts from texts. At that point it goes beyond plagiarism, trying to pass off others ideas as your own, into a copyright issue. Even bad work is protected by copyright.
Inflammable Slinky
Member
the big disappointment wasn't the last scene so much as the big climatic chase felt like it was lifted from a slasher movie. compare that to the escaping the drug den scene and that episode certainly feels below the high expectations of quality the show set.
also the scene with the housekeeper made it sound like supernatural shit was definitely going on
also the scene with the housekeeper made it sound like supernatural shit was definitely going on
Agreed. You pretty much have two main characters
that are skeptics, that end up becoming believers by the end.
That said, I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Rust found religion. But he certainly became a believer of there being more to life beyond a pointless existence. Given how bold this show was by having such a protagonist, i can understand why people felt cheated. However, I've always thought that it was obvious that Rust as a character was full of shit.
They purposely gave him a background where he used to be happy with a wife and child. So to me, his bitter pessimism was just a reaction to his life being turned upside down. I actually think before his child's death, Rust was just like the "yokels" he made fun of in that Religious tent. And the reason he was so bitter towards them, is because that used to be him. He saw himself as a fool for believing in something, only to have the rug pulled out beneath him.
I'm an atheist, and that's how I always saw his character. So the ending didn't really feel like a cop out to me. My issue with the ending more had to do with how they handled the investigation side of things (it felt rushed, and underwhelming to me...personally).
Having read the excerpts I'm finding this accusation a real stretch.
Cornballer
Member
- HBO & Nic Pizzolatto Issue Official Statements Denying Plagiarism Charge Against 'True Detective'
HBO said:
Indiewire has a little discussion via the link.Pizzolatto said:
dead souls
Member
Maybe not entirely plagiarism, but even without these accusations HBO calling it "a work of exceptional originality" is pretty laughable.
DataStream
Member
Seems more like bibliophile fanservice than plagiarism.
While I don't entirely agree with your interpretation of either show's ending, I think you hit the nail on the head in your second paragraph.
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