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SCE Executive Vice President: Possible enhanced version PS4, no first party for Vita

Three

Member
So where are all the people that berated me for saying the current PS4 hardware cannot support 4K a few months back?

Don't know maybe you can
a) quote them.
b) show where you said it wouldn't support Ultra HD blu rays specifically.

Otherwise what's the point of hollow gloats.

Anyway this lines up with the netflix rumour in February that there will be revised xb1/ps4 with 4k support.
 
Cross-gen means higher development costs, a forward compatible console means less R&D costs as well.

People are moving to next gen very fast right now, but the future is uncertain, making PS4 forward compatible is a much safer option with absolutely no downsides, enthusiasts can move to next gen while casuals can still play their games on PS4, it's a win-win scenario.

It would be the opposite and PS5 developement would be more complex and you will be stuck to the limits of the PS4 if PS5 games are supposed to run on the PS4.
What kind of nightmare would be to force to run Uncharted 4 or the next GT on the PS3?
 
I think a better solution would be making PS4 forward compatible, it can play PS5 games but with lower resolution. Userbase resets may not be practical a few years from now, an enhanced PS4 might not be a good idea, but an early PS5 with a forward compatible PS4 is a great idea.
A PS5 whose games work on a PS4 is exactly what the hypothetical PS4.1 is.

A cross-compatible, enhanced version of the previous model.
 

vpance

Member
Cross-gen means higher development costs, a forward compatible console means less R&D costs as well.

People are moving to next gen very fast right now, but the future is uncertain, making PS4 forward compatible is a much safer option with absolutely no downsides, enthusiasts can move to next gen while casuals can still play their games on PS4, it's a win-win scenario.

Cross gen games for next gen will be very easy to make since all platforms will be x86, and likely still AMD, so that's not an issue. I think next gen uptake will be just as fast as it was this time.

The only thing that matters is we get a proper jump in power, like 8-10x.
 
A PS4 upgraded to meet the standards to play UHD blurays with HDR and all that stuff is literally the only way this makes sense.
The new standards for UHD bluray weren't set when Sony released the PS4 so it makes sense to release a version of the PS4 that meets the standards.

A more powerful version of the console though?
Nah, that's not gonna happen.

They'll be saving the big boosts for PS5. They'll need to if they want their VR platform to take off.
Has anyone vetted or read the original article? http://www.4gamer.net/games/990/G999024/20151021121/

The author also doesn't understand how a modern drive that should comply with 2010 standards (BDXL) can't read three layer disks. He starts with a history of Playstation platforms introducing the CD, DVD, Blu-ray and S3D Blu-ray and expects the PS4 to support UHD Blu-ray and asks Ito to confirm. Itos says the PS4 drive can't read 3 layer disks and then the author goes on to question this by outlining standards since 2010 that should support any modern drive able to read 4 layer much less three. And he references a previous article that points out the XB1 and PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray:

http://www.4gamer.net/games/999/G999902/20150211003/ said:
Nishikawa Zenji of 3DGE:!? PS4 also supports inevitable sudden 4K Blu-ray standard appeared in the Xbox One also Maichen is to explore the possibility of bringing about a revolution in television and display
Is Ito Lying? Ito laughs and goes on to say the PS4 doesn't support a low power HEVC decoder.

I've previously posted it was announced in 2013 that the PS4 will support 4K personal content and at some future date will support 4K commercial content which requires a low power HEVC codec and DRM which Windows 10 still doesn't have for UHD blu-ray (Playready 3 porting kit and Playready ND). The quote I found for microsoft states the XB1 WILL support UHD blu-ray which confirms part of the above article.

Ito says UHD Blu-ray is under consideration and might be offered in a enhanced PS4 while it looks like the XB1 will have a UHD blu-ray as at least one person at Microsoft has announced it will as it has both a HEVC encoder and decoder and modern standard blu-ray drives CAN read a 3 layer commercial disk as seen in multiple cites in Wikipedia for 4 and 8 layer disks being read with a 2010 drive after a firmware update.

HDCP for UHD is required to be done in the same TEE as the blu-ray decryption and player NOT the HDMI chip. This is how the PS4, XB1, Kaveri and Carrizo does it. The custom PS4 HDMI chip was designed to also support VR at 60Hz, 90Hz and 120HZ so it likely was also designed for the bandwidth required and for future HFR UHD Blu-ray.

The point is we have one guy at Sony making this statement and in the past one guy at Sony has been dead wrong (PS4 won't support DLNA. But Vidipath requires DLNA and Sony posted a PDF to the FCC DSTAC on their Passage being used with PS3 and PS4 to support Vidipath and the Downloadable Security Scheme replacing the cable card). DLNA is under consideration after the resulting backlash. A enhanced PS4 for UHD Blu-ray is under consideration. I think Ito's statements are NDA lies.

Read the article and understand Sony does not allow employees to make such statements like new performance PS4s in the market with regular PS4s. Think about that for a minute. Sony internal secrecy is well known.....
 

hwy_61

Banned
I'd be up for a ps4 that doesn't sound like a goddamn hair dryer/vacuum. My ps4 is loud as fuck and I've barely had it for a year.
 

sonto340

Member
It'd be cool if it worked line the Old3DS/New3DS with the new clockspeed unlocker where it just ups the frame rate or resolution or turns effects on or off based on which model you have.

As long as all games run on both and they don't pull a Nintendo and force people to install homebrew to do it that'd be alright
 

EmptySkyForm

Neo Member
This might benefit everybody. Upgrading the hardware helps console get closer to parity with the PC. If they at least upgrade the hardware twice this generation, and then the PS5 is 7-10x stronger than that PS4 3.00 hardware wise, then consoles would be pretty strong.

Not only will console gamers benefit from the more powerful hardware, but PC gamers will benefit from it too. PC guys be like, "omg consoles hold PC back from achieving better" and all that. I think spending some money on another console is a bad thing but, I think we all can benefit from this in the long term.

The worst thing I can think of happening is that every hardware does this practice and it would kill our wallets. Imagine buying a new 3ds, new ps4, and a new xbox one because of this practice.
 
I hope this is never a thing. It'll fuck either online gaming too much. It's why I buy multiplayer games on console. Everyone is running the same specs so no one gets an advantage in framerate or resolution.
 

Red Devil

Member
Why would people buy a "high performance" PS4? Seriously at that point just hop into PC gaming.

Seems like a dumb thing to release tbh.

How do Uncharted and The Last of Us run on PC?
:p

But I agree, doesn't seem like a good idea.

A high performance PS4 does not mean your current PS4 stops working, it just means any game created for standard PS4 will run better on high performance PS4.

Is it as simple as that they release a machine with better hardware and the games released for an "older machine" are instantly optimized?

I hope this isn't just because of VR.
 

gatti-man

Member
I'm ready for a high performance ps4 right now. Better filtering, more fps, 4K blu Ray. I want it all and my wallet is ready.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
-"Thinks performance boost might requires a lot of timing when using something better than x86 architecture."
-"So in other words, it is possible."

What does that even meeeeaaaannn

A move from x86? But that wouldn't make it an update at all! That would substantially be a new system. Upgraded cores similar to Jaguar would make the most sense, and I think already exist.

I used to oppose this idea due to fragmentation, but honestly, it's going to be a long ass generation without it with so many sacrifices to framerate, resolution, AA, textures, etc.
 
I'd buy a higher spec PS4 if it means games run on both PS4 versions so I can still play with my friends and the newer/higher spec version just runs some games slightly better with better framerates and/or more details (on games that take advantage of it).

If they just mean releasing a PS4 with a larger hard drive I'll skip it.

Yea i feel the sameway, i would sell my ps4 a month before It releases though.
 
No I'm sorry, but fuck you Sony. I'm sitting here with my "regular" PS4, connected to a perfectly stable internet connection, waiting for the storefront to load. Thought I might check out the Halloween sale on PSN.

NOPE. Taken 5 minutes to even load up the menus (I can't see any items). Utterly pathetic. I don't know how they get away with it.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding_implementations_and_products said:
On 6 June, 2015, Microsoft updated the Xbox One to support 10-bit HEVC decoding.[112]

Microsoft released and update to the Xbox One’s system software, which fixes several issues and adds support for a new video codec.

10-bit HD High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) platform support added

10-bit HD HEVC enables video streaming apps, like NetFlix, to use lower bandwidth to deliver HD quality video streams. 10-bit Ultra color increases the video color precision from 8-bits to 10-bits – with 8-bits you only get 16 million colors, but with 10-bit Ultra color precision you get 1 billion life-like colors that makes your video more vibrant.
8 bit HEVC can stream 1080P @ 24 Hz with a lower bandwidth, 10 bit is needed for UHD streaming, since it streams 10 bit HEVC and Netflix is used as an example then UHD IPTV is a target and that needs HDCP 2.2. Blu-ray UHD would require 10 bit HEVC @ 60 Hz.

Combining this with the 2013 cite that the XB1 would support UHD Blu-ray should confirm the XB1 with UHD Blu-ray.

A Sony employee stated the PS4 will support 4K personal pictures and movies with commercial media sometime in the future.

So either Ito is lying for NDA reasons or the XB1 will support UHD in all it's forms and the PS4 won't.

It appears in 2011 that Sony and Microsoft are cooperating in some manner. Microsoft filed a domain registration for Sony-Microsoft.com which was within 30 days of the announcement that Sony would be using Playready in their products. This I think is about the Playready ecosystem = Vidipath and streaming media including UHD Blu-ray in the home.

sonicyogurt = Adam Tyner
 
Towards a more powerful PS4? Shuhei Yoshida answers us

This is not speculation. It was an interview conducted by Nishikawa-san, a very famous journalist Japanese high-tech. He interviewed Masayasu Ito who is responsible for developing the hardware at SCEI. Nishikawa-san asked if, because of the architectural choices we made ​​on the PS4 (an architecture based on the PC) it would be simpler theory, if we decide to do, improve technology PS4 heart of the order for example to be compatible with new media or something like that. Ito, as a technician said yes, that would be hypothetically possible. They did not speak of our business plan. It was more a question of technical possibilities.
Correcting the Ito impression. He was not talking about the business plan or PS4 features.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Correcting the Ito impression. He was not talking about the business plan or PS4 features.

We already knew that from the first interview though, because its said then specifically that it was only technically possible.

The people who jumped out of their seats to be outraged over nothing are the ones to blame i'd say
 
We already knew that from the first interview though, because its said then specifically that it was only technically possible.

The people who jumped out of their seats to be outraged over nothing are the ones to blame i'd say
He is walking back everything Ito said including the PS4 drive and future HEVC support in the already released versions of the PS4.
 
No, he's not. Nowhere in the link you provided does Yosp say anything about triple-layer capabilities or HEVC.
He says Ito was not talking about the PS4, hypothetical only. Ito made non hypothetical concrete statements about the drive and HEVC. One can not be the other. He is walking back statements made by Ito or he does not know what Ito said.

From the blu-ray forum:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=11484663&postcount=4300 said:
When probed on the question of Ultra HD Blu-ray support for the PS4, Ito confirmed that the Blu-ray drive used in the PS4 cannot read the triple-layer media that is used by the new 4K Blu-ray format, and as a result, existing PS4s have no way to play these new discs scheduled to come out at the end of the year.

probably not since

1) this has been linked to in the past
2) not all films in UHD will be on 3 layer disks
3) people have tried 3 layer BDXL burnable disks in the PS4 and they do work so what you bolded does not make sense no matter who says it.
From 2013:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a.html#post23725109 said:
The physical format is probably the same as already defined for BD-XL, which has been in place for a couple of years now for data discs. Most of the modern BD burners and BD Rom drives for PCs, including those from LG, already can support the BD-XL structure with 33 GB per layer and up to 4 layers.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-2.html#post23725730 said:
AVS forum member Kraine was reporting last week from IFA in Berlin. I requested that he question Sony about the HDMI on the PS4 and he reported they said it was using HDMI 2.0. His post is HERE.

the new PS4 released in November of the same year will also be equipped with HDMI 2.0 jacks).
HDMI 2 is only needed for 4K @ 60Hz Note: there has been nothing since multiple posts in 2013 stating the XB1 and PS4 would support 4K media till a few months go when the XB1 got 10 bit HEVC support. 10 bit HEVC is for UHD IPTV or Blu-ray.
 
He says Ito was not talking about the PS4, hypothetical only. Ito made non hypothetical concrete statements about the drive and HEVC. One can not be the other.
Here is the unfounded logical leap you're making:

Ito: The PS4 in its current form cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. It is conceivable that, perhaps one day, a more powerful revision of the PS4 could be able to play this type of media.

Yosp: Just to clarify, Ito was speaking hypothetically about a possible future hardware revision.

Rigby: Gotcha! The PS4 can play Ultra HD BD media!

There is no contradiction -- none, whatsoever -- between what Ito said and what Yosp said.
 

androvsky

Member
This is the same company that kept conflating the PS4 can't read CDs with the PS4 doesn't read CDs. If you check the paper manual that comes with the PS4, CD reading capability is mentioned, it's just not on any of the online spec sheets. And DVD drives can generally read pressed CDs even without a specific CD laser, frequency isn't too important there as long as it's lower than the requirement and there's enough focal range to focus on the disc (which DVD drives usually do thanks to the need to read dual layer discs). CD lasers are needed for recordable CD, since they use a specific frequency color dye.

There's a lot of weird internal business politics about what the PS4's drive can and can't do thanks to the whole synergy thing. Sony electronics might want to sell price-inflated 4K blu-ray players for a while before the PS4 eats their lunch.
 

Brizzo24

Member
Literally bought a PS4 last night. Don't play with me, Sony.

I know, right? I bought the Destiny Taken King bundle late September. I also read about the next Nintendo console quite frequently (after acquiring a Wii U.) I can't help but feel like I am late to a party wherein the consoles are almost obsolete. Sigh...
 

ClearData

Member
I'm sure I'd complain all the way up to the point I open up Amazon and preorder a PlayStation 4K.

Seriously, pack in a better AMD GPU and a better CPU and have Uncharted single player, Final Fantasy, Horizon running at 60 FPS and I am there with my wallet open.
 
Here is the unfounded logical leap you're making:

Ito: The PS4 in its current form cannot play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. It is conceivable that, perhaps one day, a more powerful revision of the PS4 could be able to play this type of media.

Yosp: Just to clarify, Ito was speaking hypothetically NOT about a possible future hardware revision that can play some type of new media or the PS4 roadmap.

Rigby: Gotcha! can play Ultra HD BD media!

There is no contradiction -- none, whatsoever -- between what Ito said and what Yosp said.
Read it again.....It is deliberately vague as Yoshida has to walk back definite statements.
 

omonimo

Banned
Just reading about this, sounds like an absolutely terrible idea IMO if you are a consumer and already own a ps4.
Just...depend. If more time of development it means to have a more powerful ps5, an enhanced ps4 could be a good alternative in the meantime.
 
This is the same company that kept conflating the PS4 can't read CDs with the PS4 doesn't read CDs. If you check the paper manual that comes with the PS4, CD reading capability is mentioned, it's just not on any of the online spec sheets. And DVD drives can generally read pressed CDs even without a specific CD laser, frequency isn't too important there as long as it's lower than the requirement and there's enough focal range to focus on the disc (which DVD drives usually do thanks to the need to read dual layer discs). CD lasers are needed for recordable CD, since they use a specific frequency color dye.

There's a lot of weird internal business politics about what the PS4's drive can and can't do thanks to the whole synergy thing. Sony electronics might want to sell price-inflated 4K blu-ray players for a while before the PS4 eats their lunch.
Thanks, that answers a question about CD support in another thread. You also answer the question about Blu-ray drives able to read three layers, it just needs the focal length to read the third layer.
 
Read it again.....It is deliberately vague as Yoshida has to walk back definite statements.
I cannot interpret what Yoshida said in any way other than I already mentioned. It seems incredibly clear-cut to me.

FWIW, I would never write something as mangled as "Ito was speaking hypothetically NOT about a possible future hardware revision that can play some type of new media or the PS4 roadmap." I'd like to think that I'm a better writer than that. That's so incoherent that I don't even know what you're trying to convey.

Just to be clear, I hope you're right. I would love to see the PS4 support Ultra HD Blu-ray and have these players in front of as many eyeballs as possible. It's irresponsible for you to repeatedly pass off speculation as fact, though, and your methods of arriving at some of these conclusions is spurious at best.
 
I cannot interpret what Yoshida said in any way other than I already mentioned. It seems incredibly clear-cut to me.

FWIW, I would never write something as mangled as "Ito was speaking hypothetically NOT about a possible future hardware revision that can play some type of new media or the PS4 roadmap." I'd like to think that I'm a better writer than that. That's so incoherent that I don't even know what you're trying to convey.

Just to be clear, I hope you're right. I would love to see the PS4 support Ultra HD Blu-ray and have these players in front of as many eyeballs as possible. It's irresponsible for you to repeatedly pass off speculation as fact, though, and your methods of arriving at some of these conclusions is spurious at best.

To put this into perspective:

1) Mocoworm posted 2/2015 on the Forbes article stating the first version of the PS4 & XB1 wouldn't support UHD but Netflix was told the second version would at the end of 2015.

2) In a timely manner I cited and posted it was wrong.

3) Months later after a NDA expired Microsoft and AMD announced the XB1 would support HEVC encoding for LOW LATENCY game streaming from XB1 to AMD PCs and several early articles from Microsoft stating they wanted both HEVC encoding and decoding in the XB1 posted on BY3d. I reposted them in that same Mocoworm thread because the major theme of the Forbes article was no HEVC support and I got banned for "bumping a thread", my first ever.

Posted on line at the same time but not found till later was 10 bit HEVC support by Microsoft in a coming XB1 firmware update. 10 bit HEVC is what is needed for UHD Blu-ray.

4) During the ban I researched the subject. After the ban expired I posted the PS4 will support UHD Blu-ray. Prior to that post I have been citing on Hardware for media support in the PS4 and XB1 and on Media plans from Microsoft and Sony papers found on-line.

These papers and cites inform about a media plan that has been in the works since before 2006. Middle of 2011 Sony announced they would be using Playready in all their connected platforms and Microsoft a week later registered the domain name Microsoft-Sony.com. This was about the coming Playready ecosystem = Vidipath.

So Adam, am I less professional than the Forbes author who took a Netflix rumor from the Huffington Post and stated the PS4 and XB1 first version wouldn't support UHD and the second would. He did this with only a cite of the Huffing post which was relaying an interview with a Netflix employee who heard from a Sony employee that the PS4 would support UHD by the end of 2015 and assumed it meant Hardware not Firmware update.

This (UHD Blu-ray) as you pointed out for other platforms, correcting my posts because I was relying on older news, is also likely being delayed to 2016. Is this rumor I took to be a Firmware not hardware update wrong too?

So when I cite the threads I started with hundreds of cites "kinda" proving the hardware supporting Media in the PS4, showing what is required by UHD and pointing out that both from a hardware breakdown and cites showing the PS4 HDMI to support VR support s 60, 90 and 120 Hz, is extremely programmable so it does not have a HDMI 1.4 chip and HDCP takes place in Southbridge as required by the Motion picture association. Further I cited Sony Passage PDFs to the FCC DSTAC showing the PS4 supporting a Downloadable security Scheme which the same FCC Committee says must have a TEE and HDCP 2.2.

Androvsky and I have a past in the PS3 browser thread and he is the more reserved and cautious yet even he is 100% convinced that the PS4 will support UHD. You didn't jump on him and calls him irresponsible. Is it because I cite? Androvsky actually took the time to look into the Sony Javascript engine webkit disclosures posted Nov 2010, No one else besides me did this and posted in that thread.

What is missing on NeoGAF is more people like you but with a little more time to read TECHNICAL cites and discuss what they mean. I'm 64 do have a Electrical engineering background but used a Slide ruler and punch cards in College. You can easily get tunnel vision in your field unless you READ and attempt to understand what's coming and get an Idea of what that means for Consumer Electronics.

I have been playing catchup since 2010 and as we get closer to this big CE revolution that has been delayed and delayed, more articles and papers fill in the blanks. It's now nearly a fully assembled puzzle and I have become more definite in my language. I have done the homework a professional should do. But I am not a professional so I feel a little freedom to speculate based on these papers.

I'm sure you have followed the Blu-ray forum posts discussing the HEVC codec and I find over and over that professional authors assume a ASIC as a dedicated HEVC hardware codec was needed for HEVC and anything manufactured before this was available (2015) can't support UHD. This was part of the Forbes article. The XB1 and PS4 have Xtensa DPU processors as hardware accelerators for software Codecs. The XB1 has 10 bit HEVC codec support with a Firmware update but it and the PS4, according to "professiona authors", can't have 10 bit HEVC because they were manufactured too early. This is the state of Professional Authors who should be held to a higher standard.

So we are to assume from the Ito quotes that the PS4 won't have UHD IPTV (Netflix) and UHD Blu-ray but the XB1 will? See how stupid this is....
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm sure I'd complain all the way up to the point I open up Amazon and preorder a PlayStation 4K.

Seriously, pack in a better AMD GPU and a better CPU and have Uncharted single player, Final Fantasy, Horizon running at 60 FPS and I am there with my wallet open.

I doubt that ever happens. They'd sooner make the current PS4 for cheaper and just sell it for $199 in the future.
 
Androvsky and I have a past in the PS3 browser thread and he is the more reserved and cautious yet even he is 100% convinced that the PS4 will support UHD. You didn't jump on him and calls him irresponsible. Is it because I cite?
I wish I had a nickel for every time you type "cite".

As far as I know, Androvsky did not start a thread titled "The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray" that was littered with "Wow, great news! Thanks for the update!" responses. Being convinced that the PS4 will support Ultra HD Blu-ray discs is not irresponsible. Presenting that statement as fact is.

I'm 64 do have a Electrical engineering background but used a Slide ruler and punch cards in College. I have been playing catchup since 2010
...versus the Sony EVP who, as Yoshida put it, "is responsible for developing the hardware at SCEI".

Yes, people in a position of knowledge and authority can be wrong, but for someone on the outside and weighing the credentials of those two people, who is the more credible source? I know my kneejerk reaction wouldn't be to dismiss Ito as a liar or a moron, especially regarding a format that hasn't even come to market yet.
 
I wish I had a nickel for every time you type "cite".

As far as I know, Androvsky did not start a thread titled "The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray" that was littered with "Wow, great news! Thanks for the update!" responses. Being convinced that the PS4 will support Ultra HD Blu-ray discs is not irresponsible. Presenting that statement as fact is.

...versus the Sony EVP who, as Yoshida put it, "is responsible for developing the hardware at SCEI".

Yes, people in a position of knowledge and authority can be wrong, but for someone on the outside and weighing the credentials of those two people, who is the more credible source? I know my kneejerk reaction wouldn't be to dismiss Ito as a liar or a moron, especially regarding a format that hasn't even come to market yet.

https://community.amd.com/community/amd-corporate/blog/2015/07/29/work-and-play-like-never-before-amd-and-windows-10-are-empowering-exciting-new-computing-experiences said:
Sharing the same proven technology as found in Xbox One™, AMD-based PCs include built-in support for the industry’s most advanced video acceleration technologies like H.264 and our 6th Generation A-Series Processors support H.265 (HEVC) – enabling AMD APU-powered PCs to handle demanding videos, movies, and TV content at the highest resolutions – HD, and beyond.
XB1 got 10 bit HEVC decode in a firmware update 5 months ago. = Xtensa DPU = UVD which is also in the PS4 southbridge. This confirms this thread at least for the XB1. It is no longer Hardware for Media Hub features in both the XB1 and PS4 "kinda confirmed". Notice the Kinda confirmed because it was supported speculation at that time. I edited in Will support UHD at a later date.

Adam, are we to assume the XB1 will support UHD IPTV and Blu-ray and the PS4 won't? Or do we assume due to Sony NDA secrecy that Ito lied about the drive and HEVC support in the PS4. Do we assume multiple posts of Sony employee quotes on this are wrong or Ito lied. Do we assume the Netflix/Forbes quote was wrong and the second version of the PS4 can't support UHD or the Netflix quote was a misunderstanding and a firmware update is coming to support UHD for both the 2013 and 2015 version. If Ito lied then the latter is true, if Ito told the truth then no version of the PS4 will support UHD ever. As Yoshida implied, Sony does not disrupt the Game console model.

Also understand that only the PS4 southbridge is needed for all video including UHD IPTV and Blu-ray, the AMD APU will be off ( I posted on this 7/2013). So comments about a more powerful PS4 released in the future to play media have at their core a misunderstanding or misdirection as the only thing that would need replacing is the PS4 Southbridge. So that custom Sony chip with 256 MB of DDR3 is both the Southbridge and the TEE for all media. If Sony wants to market a UHD blu-ray player with digital bridge, they just need the PS4 southbridge.

Knowledge like the above make the Ito post seem like ignorance...a more powerful PS4 would not be needed, just replace the southbridge...doesn't he know that? Modern standard blu-ray drives can read 3 layers, doesn't he know that? So what do I conclude, a manager that doesn't know anything about what he is producing or NDA lies forced on him by a very well respected Japanese advanced Tech writer who already posted that modern blu-ray drives can read UHD disks?

We also should consider that the PS4 Southbridge does not have a HEVC hardware codec, it's software run on an accelerator (Xtensa DPU) so Comments from Ito that the PS4 does not have a HEVC codec are misleading but accurate. I wonder about the drive comment though. A standard blu-ray drive can read three layers but needs firmware updating to read the Panasonic-Sony tweak to get from 25 to 33 GB/layer. Is this also the wiggle room Ito is using? I would have assumed it would already have the newer UHD firmware at launch.
 
Adam, I just reread the the last page of the thread and you didn't get what I meant by Yoshida is deliberately vague = He doesn't mention UHD or 4K he says: "new media or something like that."

Ito is definite about features to support UHD and Yoshida says: if we decide to do, improve technology PS4 heart of the order for example to be compatible with new media or something like that. " If that doesn't indicate a NDA is in place I don't know what would. New media or something like that instead of 4K or UHD. Now look at the Microsoft quote:
"10-bit HD HEVC enables video streaming apps, like NetFlix, to use lower bandwidth to deliver HD quality video streams. 10-bit Ultra color increases the video color precision from 8-bits to 10-bits – with 8-bits you only get 16 million colors, but with 10-bit Ultra color precision you get 1 billion life-like colors that makes your video more vibrant."
No mention of UHD Blu-ray but 10 bit is needed for UHD Blu-ray. HD TVs can't use the extra bits to extend the color precision so what it's saying is; hey we support HD with lower bandwidth as well as UHD IPTV and Blu-ray but they can't say that because there is a NDA between Microsoft and Sony.

NDA has to be the issue here.

1) If Ito is correct then Sony is stupid
2) If Ito is Lying then it's a NDA issue
3) If Ito is stupid then Sony having him in a position of responsibility is stupid.

Sony in my opinion is not stupid. Everything I have read about what's coming is VERY VERY smart and HEVC is needed as witnessed by Microsoft including it for Game Streaming and the multiple posts I've cited for Microsoft saying just that...
 
Adam, I just reread the the last page of the thread and you didn't get what I meant by Yoshida is deliberately vague = He doesn't mention UHD or 4K he says: "new media or something like that."

Ito is definite about features to support UHD and Yoshida says: if we decide to do, improve technology PS4 heart of the order for example to be compatible with new media or something like that. " If that doesn't indicate a NDA is in place I don't know what would.
This reminds me of the '66 Batman movie.

Commissioner Gordon: It could be any one of them... But which one? Which ones?
Batman: Pretty fishy what happened to me on that ladder...
Commissioner Gordon: You mean where there's a fish, there could be a Penguin?
Robin: But wait! It happened at sea... Sea. "C" for Catwoman!
Batman: Yet, an exploding shark was pulling my leg...
Commissioner Gordon: The Joker!
Chief O'Hara: All adds up to a sinister riddle... Riddle-R. Riddler!

Perhaps, like Batman and Robin, these massive leaps you're making will wind up being correct, but the way you're arriving there doesn't really make any sense.

Sometimes a duck is a duck. Ito spells out what would be necessary to bring Ultra HD Blu-ray support to a hypothetical future revision of the PS4. This doesn't indicate anything other than that he and his team have investigated it. Yoshida says nothing that contradicts that. I fundamentally do not see how he's backpedaling on anything Ito had said (clarifying the intent of, yes...backpedaling, no), and I absolutely do not see the unmistakable evidence of trying to avoid breaking an NDA that you do. What you quoted, to my mind, signifies nothing beyond what's on the surface.

It seems to me that you've arrived at a certain conclusion, and that's tainted your perception of things such that everywhere you look, all you see is evidence of a Sony conspiracy to cover up their future support of Ultra HD Blu-ray in the current PS4 model.

I hope you're right. As enthusiastic as I am about it, I recognize that Ultra HD Blu-ray has very little chance of being a commercial success, and everything that lowers those barriers -- such as sneaking players into millions of homes -- will help.

I don't think there's anything to be gained by my responding further. Maybe I'm the one who's completely off-base and overlooking the obvious. Have at it.
 
This reminds me of the '66 Batman movie.



Perhaps, like Batman and Robin, these massive leaps you're making will wind up being correct, but the way you're arriving there doesn't really make any sense.

Sometimes a duck is a duck. Ito spells out what would be necessary to bring Ultra HD Blu-ray support to a hypothetical future revision of the PS4. This doesn't indicate anything other than that he and his team have investigated it. Yoshida says nothing that contradicts that. I fundamentally do not see how he's backpedaling on anything Ito had said (clarifying the intent of, yes...backpedaling, no), and I absolutely do not see the unmistakable evidence of trying to avoid breaking an NDA that you do. What you quoted, to my mind, signifies nothing beyond what's on the surface.

It seems to me that you've arrived at a certain conclusion, and that's tainted your perception of things such that everywhere you look, all you see is evidence of a Sony conspiracy to cover up their future support of Ultra HD Blu-ray in the current PS4 model.

I hope you're right. As enthusiastic as I am about it, I recognize that Ultra HD Blu-ray has very little chance of being a commercial success, and everything that lowers those barriers -- such as sneaking players into millions of homes -- will help.

I don't think there's anything to be gained by my responding further. Maybe I'm the one who's completely off-base and overlooking the obvious. Have at it.
I guess you also don't understand my comments about the Sony custom designed Southbridge that is also the TEE for all video. Please follow:

Sony custom designed, with help from Cadence-Tensilica, the Southbridge to support media including the media that would be necessary for them to support during the life of the PS4. Microsoft did the same with Cadence-Tensilica as did AMD for Kaveri and Carrizo. AMD and Microsoft which are Computer software and hardware companies knew that HEVC was necessary and Sony has been converting their movies to 4K since 2011. Sony has stated that 4K is how they will recover their position in the CE market with their TVs, Media arms, Blu-ray players and Blu-ray production. So:

Yoshida not using 4K instead of some new media or whatever and Sony not spending $1or so per PS4 for the extra power in the Xtensa processor that is going to be there for audio anyway does not make sense in any way (Sony said their Xtensa DPU used for audio can process 200 MP3 streams. That's a data rate slightly higher than a UHD video stream and 200 audio codecs is extreme overkill for an audio processor). There is also that that same chip can be used in Sony UHD Blu-ray players and they can leverage economy of scale for that chip and Software written for the PS4 to provide either the cheapest UHD blu-ray player or the highest margin blu-ray player on the market. This is very very smart...not stupid.

AMD, as ATI, bought a Licence to use Xtensa DPUs in 2004 and Sony in 2007 for their blu-ray players. If you had followed the cites and read them you would have understood this. I very thoroughly researched and posted on the hardware providing media support in the XB1 and PS4. This colors my view and does allow me to see what you can't...yes cite cite cite as without reading them you are as clueless as the Forbes article author and the Netflix employee who mistook Sony saying they would have UHD support by the end of 2015 as a hardware revision.

Samsung has announced that they will wait till they have a one chip solution before they will release a UHD Blu-ray...Sony already has one in the 2015 second version of the Southbridge for the PS4. It is using IVP-EP features like Carrizo while the original is using IVP and more power.

It appears You pick and choose what you will argue based on language not technology and thus you ignore my major points. In doing this we will never have a meeting of the minds just frustration.
 
It appears You pick and choose what you will argue based on language not technology and thus you ignore my major points.
I respond to the things I'm equipped to respond to. If you'd only posted about white papers and technical capabilities, and if you'd presented your speculation as such, I never would have replied at all.
 
I respond to the things I'm equipped to respond to. If you'd only posted about white papers and technical capabilities, and if you'd presented your speculation as such, I never would have replied at all.
I did until "professional" authors started saying the consoles couldn't support being UHD blu-ray players. They were demonstrably wrong without support in any way for what they were writing. The first paragraph in the thread I started The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray:


No one is doing the research. On Beyond3D they still don't know/acknowledge what hardware is supporting HEVC in the XB1 even though one of them posted parts of my thread. It was ignored because it was not a hardware (ASIC) dedicated HEVC codec which could not possibly have been available when the XB1 was released. They have all the pieces but they didn't do the reading to understand what a Xtensa DPU is and can do. This is the problem with the professional authors also.

As of a few days ago AMD is saying the same Xtensa processor technology in the XB1 to support 10 bit HEVC is in AMD products. This has been true since 2004 with ATI and the first AMD APU had it too. It has evolved in power and efficiency with early versions a combination of Xtensa processor and GPU shaders to process video and the latest version in Carrizo a stand alone UVD that can decode HEVC with extreme efficiency for battery operation, Game Consoles do not need the same efficiency so they could support HEVC earlier with a higher clocked less efficient Xtensa processor.

This is no longer speculation for the XB1 (they apparently just can't say the words UHD or 4K). If I had titled the thread "The PS4 and XB1 will support 4K blu-ray" I would have been already been proved half right. That is in the body of the OP. We are just awaiting Sony which is the more secret of the two.

If you don't understand that the Xtensa DPU is being used for HEVC or what it is you don't understand that VP9 can also be supported or h.265 (the Open source version) or any of the multiple profiles for HEVC or a Open source Codec that might take the place of HEVC. It is not a dedicated ASIC, it is a software based hardware accelerator/stream processor.

https://community.sony.rs/t5/televisions/sony-x9005a-owners-amp-netflix-4k-hevc-codec/td-p/1591963/page/3 said:
It only takes a tiny 160GFlops/s of programmable DSP to encode H.265 stream, and almost certainly less than one quarter of that(40GFlops/s) to decode a 4K h.265 netflix stream(of 15Mbps). So if you will insist in pushing their marketing argument, that they can't fix this via firmware, then actually quote some real computer science to back it up.
Remember the Cell BE can handle more than 5 h.264 streams on the desktop XMB while not impacting the XMB performance at all and it was designed to eventually support h.265 codecs.

In video interview at 12:00 Yoshida says PS4 has 4K output.
 
Released Oct 2015 is: Mt. Fuji Commands for Multimedia Devices Version 9

Page 83 lists the BD capacities. There is no separate UHD drive, a BD-ROM version 2 drive can read TL disks which have 100 GB capacity.
A BD-ROM drive is a read only drive and can read but can not write 3 layer XL/TL disks. ROM disks are commercial read only and are easier to read that recordable. The released 10/2015 paper has all multi-media drives listed as of that date and UHD blu-ray if it requires a different drive should be listed.

This confirms that Modern blu-ray drives can support 100GB disks.

That confirms Ito was lying to protect NDA.
 

dr_rus

Member
There is nothing on any BD drive on page 83 of the document you linked. It is describing the media, not the drive. What is of interest regarding the drive though is this paragraph from p.84:
3.2 BD-ROM
BD-ROM disc is a read-only media with the general BD structure. In BD-ROM format, there are two versions. A disc of each version can have several different numbers of layers an d capacities as shown in Table 6. Regardless of the number of layers or the capacity, BD-ROM V2.0 format is not compatible with BD-ROM V1.4 (e.g. DL 50.0 Gbytes).
This is an addition for BD 2.0 which is the spec allowing the creation of 66 and 100 GB Blurays. This confirms that current drives won't be able to read BD 2.0 media if anything - the exact opposite of what you're saying.
 
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