• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hi Guest. We've rebooted and consolidated our Communities section, so be sure to check it out and subscribe to some threads. Thanks!

Scorcese says Marvel films are essentially 'theme parks', 'not cinema'

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
Art is supposed to elicit a response, it's supposed to make you think or feel something.

I didn't say comic books aren't art, they can be but not everything is. MCU movies are basically comedies with fun punching included, they don't have anything that makes you think or feel anything other than "That punch was sooo cool!" or "Hahaha, that joke is funny!", it's childlike, they don't say anything and they are not designed to.

It's like asking artistic intent from a plastic Transformers toy, it's designed to be consumed and thrown away.
You say a movie is meant to make you feel something.
Then you say that they make you laugh, hence they make you feel happy.
But they aren't art. And something making you laugh and feel happy is childish?
hmmm
 

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
382
383
295
You say a movie is meant to make you feel something.
Then you say that they make you laugh, hence they make you feel happy.
But they aren't art. And something making you laugh and feel happy is childish?
hmmm
Art is supposed to have meaning as well. It's being looked at from an artistic point of view, and those movies don't say anything. They are just a product, a very well made one, but they have the depth of a whoppee cushion, they are very basic.

I don't know why saying the truth of what a consumable product is bothers you. Dr. Strange is not supposed to make you question your morality or show you something impactful on your life on screen. It's made to create some kick ass vistas, show cool fighting scenes and have Cucumberpatch wear a really cool looking costume.
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
Art is supposed to have meaning as well. It's being looked at from an artistic point of view, and those movies don't say anything. They are just a product, a very well made one, but they have the depth of a whoppee cushion, they are very basic.

I don't know why saying the truth of what a consumable product is bothers you. Dr. Strange is not supposed to make you question your morality or show you something impactful on your life on screen. It's made to create some kick ass vistas, show cool fighting scenes and have Cucumberpatch wear a really cool looking costume.
I'm not bothered at all. We just have different interpretations of art. I enjoy the hell out of Scorsese's work and the MCU films.
The only thing that I'm annoyed at Scorsese for is letting his next film be exclusive to Netflix as there is an extremely slim chance of me being able to see that on a large screen at the cinema. You know, where the art of film should be seen and experienced.
 
Dec 14, 2008
32,739
701
1,080
He is right. They are basically fast food.
It's important to realize the significance of this comment.

Fast food is meant to be easy to access, very palatable, and cheap. It fills you up for awhile but soon you are hungry again. Eating too much of it is bad for you. You can't appreciate good food if you eat fast food too much.

This is completely true for movies too.
 

EightBit Man

Member
Jun 13, 2019
1,261
2,540
430
The Netherlands
Am I the only person who hasn't seen a Marvel film? I haven't even seen the first X-Men and Spider-Man films. lol

I did see Christopher Nolan's Batman films though, and they are pretty great.

Maybe DC is more my thing.
 

Sycomunkee

Member
Jan 21, 2019
1,842
1,640
390
Am I the only person who hasn't seen a Marvel film? I haven't even seen the first X-Men and Spider-Man films. lol

I did see Christopher Nolan's Batman films though, and they are pretty great.

Maybe DC is more my thing.
Watch Batman vs Superman and beyond and you will quickly change your mind.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Rentahamster

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
40,104
15,844
1,395
The Pentagon
movie thing is theme park that no convey human experience psychology

i hope the multiverse of madness puts this shit to rest once and for all
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Greedings

Greedings

Member
May 23, 2016
1,840
1,268
440
He’s completely right. They’re just like McDonald’s or KFC. Sure, they’re fine if you’re hungry, but you’ll never look back on them as your favourite.
Unless of course you’ve never been exposed to anything of substance.

They’re designed to appeal to as many people as possible. Which somehow works lol.
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: BibleBLACKED
Dec 14, 2008
32,739
701
1,080
It's not a joke or a meme to say that your average Marvel fan probably doesn't know who Martin Scorsese is. He made most of his movies when they had not yet even been born.
 

brap

Member
Jan 9, 2018
7,220
16,813
905
It's not a joke or a meme to say that your average Marvel fan probably doesn't know who Martin Scorsese is. He made most of his movies when they had not yet even been born.
There's plenty of manchildren in their 30s that lap up this dogshit. No excuse.
 

It's Jeff

Member
Aug 28, 2015
508
635
440
They're basically a big budget CGI version of this. Don't forget to add more quips though.
Posting this video doesn't accent your point. I think it's considered a hate crime in 31 states. What you've done to my eyes and ears is unforgivable.
 

Manus

Member
Jan 12, 2009
4,718
797
1,055
I wouldn't have a problem with Marvel movies if they all weren't so samey. You can totally tell all the films are made by a committee with barely any artistic vision behind them. After the 10th film I got so bored with them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Revolutionary
Dec 14, 2008
32,739
701
1,080
I wouldn't have a problem with Marvel movies if they all weren't so samey. You can totally tell all the films are made by a committee with barely any artistic vision behind them. After the 10th film I got so bored with them.
What's really aggravating is they tried to apply the same formula to Star Wars and the Disney trilogy has been the result of that. Watching Star Wars being reduced to being what it has become is a lot more infuriating than anything I saw from Marvel to be perfectly honest.
 

BibleBLACKED

Member
Mar 20, 2017
1,565
2,567
615
What's really aggravating is they tried to apply the same formula to Star Wars and the Disney trilogy has been the result of that. Watching Star Wars being reduced to being what it has become is a lot more infuriating than anything I saw from Marvel to be perfectly honest.
This is really the sad part. Disney either turns every possible ip into samey marvel copies or they do nothing but remakes of their or by them aquired properties.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radical Dreamer

Dark Star

Member
Jan 14, 2018
539
479
330
I haven't payed much attention to Marvel after Disney took over. I think the last of Marvel I really enjoyed was the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy. It feels very cohesive, and some of the performances (J.K Simmons) are genuinely authentic and award worthy. I think comic-book films in the decade have been seriously run-of-the-mill. You know what to expect and you leave the theater satisfied with that in mind. A perfect example of the "theme park" effect is literally Jurrassic World. It lacks substance, it's sub-par to the original, but it's a fun time with great CGI.

Do I enjoy modern-day Marvel films? They're the best popcorn-flick/summer block buster moments, so they have that going for them. Take or it leave it, they're still "cinematic" experiences. You could argue the same for DCEU. Compare a really dark and gritty Scorsese/Tarantino film to the recent Tod Phillip's Joker, and you're still on the same page. There is a time and place for what Scorsese refers to as legitimate cinema, and that is simply when you're in the mood. It also has to with audience maturity. There is a reason films like The Godfather and Taxi Driver are R rated. These kinds of films demand your full focus to understand the story and characters, and are definitely not suitable for young children, who are the main audience for "theme park" films.
 
Last edited:

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
382
383
295
I'm not bothered at all. We just have different interpretations of art. I enjoy the hell out of Scorsese's work and the MCU films.
The only thing that I'm annoyed at Scorsese for is letting his next film be exclusive to Netflix as there is an extremely slim chance of me being able to see that on a large screen at the cinema. You know, where the art of film should be seen and experienced.
Enjoying something doesn't mean it's art. I enjoy eating McDonald's every once in a while. That doesn't make it high cuisine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yakuzakazuya

emperor84

Neo Member
Sep 3, 2019
20
11
100
He's not correct though. It's fine to not like a movie, but to try and gatekeep to that extent that you claim it's not "cinema" is absurd.

Roger Ebert stood out to me as a critic because he could navigate art house cinema, and mainstream audience cinema equally skillfully. While most people would shit on martial arts movies and look down on them, he consistently compared Jackie Chan to Charlie Chaplin and praised him as one of the greatest living talents in the medium.

Superhero movies still do some stuff well, like world building, and creating this web of continuous storylines. Some have some good comedy. Some have some good special effects. A handful actually have fantastic action sequences, like Winter Soldier and Civil War.

There's really no criteria you can think of to exclude these from "cinema," without excluding thousands and thousands of other movies. Pretty much all comedies. All action movies. All martial arts movies. Probably a decent chunk of horror movies. All so you can sit on your high horse and act like the only thing cinema can be is oscar-bait.
i think people are just agreeing with scorcese because of his accolades. people need to start thinking for themselves he's obviously wrong. just because you've won awards doesn't make your opinion fact, doesn't put you above everyone else. if you think about it every movie is a "theme park". makes you go on a rollercoaster ride of emotions.
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
I wouldn't have a problem with Marvel movies if they all weren't so samey. You can totally tell all the films are made by a committee with barely any artistic vision behind them. After the 10th film I got so bored with them.
So Ant-Man, GOTG and Black Panther are all the exact same? They are not made by committee but by people who have a vision. All the films look visually different and are shot differently. Comic book films prior to 2008 are made by committee,

Enjoying something doesn't mean it's art. I enjoy eating McDonald's every once in a while. That doesn't make it high cuisine.
Again, we have different viewpoints.
What scorsese is saying is like a world renowned artist saying that comic books aren't art. They are art, comic books have all types of art within their pages and all sorts of stories. Some stories are simple and fun, others are deep and meaningful.

For me personally, the MCU movies have made me laugh, cry, feel dread, feel worried and all sorts of other things. So how can you sit there and define what art is for other people? They also say things about the current world and peoples every day lives.
The very first MCU film, Iron Man, is about a man coming to terms with what his fathers company has been doing. It talks about modern war and arms dealing. We all know that middle eastern terrorists have received weapons from other nations.
Winter Soldier is about government control and freedom, people being watched and spied on, it talks about trust and lies.
GOTG is about family and bettering yourself as a person. People who have lost loved ones to cancer will also find meaning with this film.
Age of Ultron is about owning up to your mistakes and fixing them.
Black Panther obviously says a lot about how black people are treated. By the end of the film, my interpretation is that black people need to stop pointing fingers and blaming and help themselves.

I can go on and on if I really want to analyse the films. It's fine if they mean nothing to you but don't forget that they do also mean a lot to other people.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DeafTourette

Manus

Member
Jan 12, 2009
4,718
797
1,055
So Ant-Man, GOTG and Black Panther are all the exact same? They are not made by committee but by people who have a vision. All the films look visually different and are shot differently. Comic book films prior to 2008 are made by committee,
Are you for real right now? Tell me what risks these films took? At least with Ragnarok it was a full blown comedy. None of the three films you listed have any artistic style, visually their all so boring to look at. Prior to 2008 we actually had real Marvel movies with vision and inspiration behind them. Iron Man 1, Spider-Man 1 and 2.
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
Are you for real right now? Tell me what risks these films took? At least with Ragnarok it was a full blown comedy. None of the three films you listed have any artistic style, visually their all so boring to look at. Prior to 2008 we actually had real Marvel movies with vision and inspiration behind them. Iron Man 1, Spider-Man 1 and 2.
OK
Apart from Iron Man, Spider-Man 1 and 2 and Dark Knight. What else was there?
 

Manus

Member
Jan 12, 2009
4,718
797
1,055
OK
Apart from Iron Man, Spider-Man 1 and 2 and Dark Knight. What else was there?
What do I need to list more? Besides Into the Spiderverse and Batman Begins. You just listed the only good comic book films.

Sorry bro, Marvel movies blow.
 
Last edited:

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
What do I need to list more? Besides Into the Spiderverse and Batman Begins. You just listed the only good comic book films.

Sorry bro, Marvel movies blow.
Also, I didnt say that each individual MCU film was taking risks, I said they are made by passionate people. But if you do want to talk about risks, the entire concept of the interconnected MCU was/is a massive risk. Spider-Man 1 and 2 and dark Knight didnt take any risks at all either to be honest, they are just very well made films.

*EDIT*
You also ignored my question.
Winter Soldier, Ant-Man and Black Panther all feel the exact same? In their visual look and story telling?
 
Last edited:

DeafTourette

Member
Apr 23, 2018
2,019
1,489
460
deaftourette.com
So Ant-Man, GOTG and Black Panther are all the exact same? They are not made by committee but by people who have a vision. All the films look visually different and are shot differently. Comic book films prior to 2008 are made by committee,



Again, we have different viewpoints.
What scorsese is saying is like a world renowned artist saying that comic books aren't art. They are art, comic books have all types of art within their pages and all sorts of stories. Some stories are simple and fun, others are deep and meaningful.

For me personally, the MCU movies have made me laugh, cry, feel dread, feel worried and all sorts of other things. So how can you sit there and define what art is for other people? They also say things about the current world and peoples every day lives.
The very first MCU film, Iron Man, is about a man coming to terms with what his fathers company has been doing. It talks about modern war and arms dealing. We all know that middle eastern terrorists have received weapons from other nations.
Winter Soldier is about government control and freedom, people being watched and spied on, it talks about trust and lies.
GOTG is about family and bettering yourself as a person. People who have lost loved ones to cancer will also find meaning with this film.
Age of Ultron is about owning up to your mistakes and fixing them.
Black Panther obviously says a lot about how black people are treated. By the end of the film, my interpretation is that black people need to stop pointing fingers and blaming and help themselves.

I can go on and on if I really want to analyse the films. It's fine if they mean nothing to you but don't forget that they do also mean a lot to other people.
I love Black Panther! It's one of my favorite movies of the last 10 years! I disliked the last fight Scene. I wanted to see something like the airport scene in Civil War and not that CGI crapfest.

I saw a different message in the movie but I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Sleep is calling...
 
  • Like
Reactions: sol_bad

Keihart

Member
Jun 23, 2013
2,450
312
545
the man speaks the truth. he has worked in the craft for his entire life, he's not bs-ing around. his "cinema" is specifically in the traditional film framework, he is talking in relation to the history of the medium.

almost all comic movies are dumb as fuck. everyone wants to be Joseph Campbell without doing any of the homework and it shows. plotwise and theming wise, it is mostly just jumping from one setpiece to another, much like a theme park. there is no deep dive into anything of substance, it's largely a commercial for itself.

but it is ok to like dumb movies. people loved stupid 50s flying saucer movies, now they love stupid flying superhuman movies. there is nothing wrong with enjoying trash. i would say at least 50s trash movies had something to say about atomic energy and the cold war, whereas nowadays our trash films comment on nothing much at all.
Some are pretty thematic yet lighthearted and self aware, like GoTG or Thor Ragnarok. I mean, they are not fucking Synecdoche, New York, but they are very competent stories told in intereseting visual ways. I get what he is getting at, because MCU movies are very much more made to consume than expression, but i get the feeling that he is also kinda salty at how successful these apparently frivolous films are.

And i'm just gonna leave this here because Earthling Cinema is too good:
 
Last edited:

John Day

Gold Member
Jan 12, 2018
625
449
485
37
San Juan, PR
I mean, yeahhh, if by cinema he means “movies that will open your brains to thoughts and shit” yeah, i agree.

They are fucking fun movies. Fun.

Like, Bad Boys 2 fucking fun. I don’t need them to win oscars, cause they fullfilled their role. Any “fan” that asks any more of them are fucking crazy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: K1Expwy and sol_bad

womfalcs3

Member
May 11, 2007
5,596
691
1,250
Nolan's Batman movies aren't like MCU... same for the original Spider-man. I demand a clarification.
 
Last edited:

#Phonepunk#

Member
Sep 4, 2018
6,981
9,113
640
there has been something lost in the transition from analog to digital. the film medium used to be an analog one, printed on literal film. it had life to it because it was an accurate capture of the living world, the way light plays in real time. when this is captured digitally, where it can be easily manipulated or distorted, or assembled through a variety of environments, the resulting lighting is less stable, the image is less real, and the brain knows it. it gives things a less realistic look.

on top of that, digital is unrealistically clean, at least to me, a person raised partially on film. there are things inherent in physically working with the media, noise gained while cutting it on an editing station, pacing decisions you would make using that kind of machine, maybe rules you learned from the old days that were tried and true, etc. all this has been lost in the use of digital processing.

similarly the inclusion of other real world art fields: matte painting, model building, set design, all of which are now done w a lot of CGI. tbf i have seen many paintings that took my breath away, and CGI that has done that has been few and far between. sure, the look of old optical effects can be accurately emulated by modern technology, but it will never fully capture that look. when you compound these things by frame rate, and consider the noise (dust, scratches, cigarette burns, etc. you see on old film) of the medium, being shown at 24fps almost on top of the main movie, none of that is there with digital. it is all clean. the magic is gone.

most of these movies are shot digitally, on green screens, with characters that are wholly digital, the lighting is digital, the texture work is digital, perhaps the backgrounds are digital. the camera is a perfect pan rather than being carried by a human being. the set is a green screen. a CGI background can look great indeed, but is no match for a real matte painting. i am not sorry to say this, and all you need to do is see a high resolution rip of a FILM film and you will know what i speak is true. Scorcese is old school, i think he would agree with me. cinema is at heart an analog medium.
 
Last edited:

Bushido Boi

Gold Member
May 31, 2019
631
512
560
33
there has been something lost in the transition from analog to digital. the film medium used to be an analog one, printed on literal film. it had life to it because it was an accurate capture of the living world, the way light plays in real time. when this is captured digitally, or assembled through a variety of environments, the lighting is less stable, it gives things a less realistic look. on top of that, digital is unrealistically clean, at least to me, a person raised partially on film. there are things inherent in physically working with the media, with cutting it on an editing station, things you would do with that, pacing decisions you would make while editing, maybe rules you learned from the old days that were tried and true, all this has been lost in the use of digital processing. similarly the inclusion of other real world art fields: matte painting, model building, set design, all of which are now done w a lot of CGI. sure, the look of old optical effects can be accurately emulated by modern technology, but it will never fully capture that look. when you compound these things by frame rate, and consider the noise (dust, scratches, cigarette burns, etc. you see on old film) of the medium, being shown at 24fps almost on top of the main movie, none of that is there with digital. it is all clean. the magic is gone.

most of these movies are shot digitally, on green screens, with characters that are wholly digital, the lighting is digital, the texture work is digital, perhaps the backgrounds are digital. a CGI background can look great indeed, but is no match for a real matte painting. i am not sorry to say this, and all you need to do is see a high resolution rip of a FILM film and you will know what i speak is true. Scorcese is old school, i think he would agree with me. cinema is at heart an analog medium.
K.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: CurryPanda

brap

Member
Jan 9, 2018
7,220
16,813
905
Marvel movies ARE fun! What’s wrong with you, brap?!
They're annoying quippy garbage where a bunch of adults pretend to fight each other in front of a greenscreen.

there has been something lost in the transition from analog to digital. the film medium used to be an analog one, printed on literal film. it had life to it because it was an accurate capture of the living world, the way light plays in real time. when this is captured digitally, where it can be easily manipulated or distorted, or assembled through a variety of environments, the resulting lighting is less stable, the image is less real, and the brain knows it. it gives things a less realistic look.

on top of that, digital is unrealistically clean, at least to me, a person raised partially on film. there are things inherent in physically working with the media, noise gained while cutting it on an editing station, pacing decisions you would make using that kind of machine, maybe rules you learned from the old days that were tried and true, etc. all this has been lost in the use of digital processing.

similarly the inclusion of other real world art fields: matte painting, model building, set design, all of which are now done w a lot of CGI. tbf i have seen many paintings that took my breath away, and CGI that has done that has been few and far between. sure, the look of old optical effects can be accurately emulated by modern technology, but it will never fully capture that look. when you compound these things by frame rate, and consider the noise (dust, scratches, cigarette burns, etc. you see on old film) of the medium, being shown at 24fps almost on top of the main movie, none of that is there with digital. it is all clean. the magic is gone.

most of these movies are shot digitally, on green screens, with characters that are wholly digital, the lighting is digital, the texture work is digital, perhaps the backgrounds are digital. the camera is a perfect pan rather than being carried by a human being. the set is a green screen. a CGI background can look great indeed, but is no match for a real matte painting. i am not sorry to say this, and all you need to do is see a high resolution rip of a FILM film and you will know what i speak is true. Scorcese is old school, i think he would agree with me. cinema is at heart an analog medium.
Digital looks awful and makes things look cheap.
 

Bushido Boi

Gold Member
May 31, 2019
631
512
560
33
What’s this greenscreen you speak of? Pretending? They fight for REAL, man! FOR REAL!
 

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
2,902
1,434
1,345
They're annoying quippy garbage where a bunch of adults pretend to fight each other in front of a greenscreen.


Digital looks awful and makes things look cheap.
C'mon brap, you seem to love 80s style cheese action, they are full of corny one liners. Tis no different.

Digital and analogue can both look great. And they can both be digitally edited to the beyond.
 

#Phonepunk#

Member
Sep 4, 2018
6,981
9,113
640
Digital looks awful and makes things look cheap.
just as well, the movies and tv have merged together. Prestigue TV has taken over everything. they are written and directed by the same people. JJ Abrams, Joss Whedon, Rian Johnson, GOT guys, etc.
 
Last edited: