Support NeoGAF

[Javin98]

If semi custom not ready for 2017, Scorpio can use none custom desktop/laptop Zen CPU.

No offense, man, but I think many of your posts are optimism without substance. Really, what you suggested here is nigh on impossible. You cannot simply put in desktop parts into a console without any modifications. A good gaming PC can draw over 300W at peak, the strongest ones easily over 400W if need be. A console will probably draw 220W at most. If I recall, a desktop Zen CPU requires 90W alone, and that's taking into account GPU, RAM and other components. The GPU is the component that draws the highest wattage, so if they straight up fit in a 90W CPU, you can forget about a good GPU, what more a 6TFlops one. There is a reason Jaguar was chosen despite being very weak.

Edit: And I haven't even brought up die sizes. Many in this thread think it's as simple as price, power and competition.

 

[anothertech]

You know, it's entirely possible MS never officially reveals what the CPU is. We might be waiting for a full on tear down after launch by a third party for that info.

I could see them doing this if they stuck with jaguar for cost reasons. That would suck.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I see we've already forgotten about Matt claiming that developers haven't been briefed about a substantial CPU upgrade at all. But sure.

This place really does put these 'insiders' on a pedestal, has the dude ever called anything wrong before or is he right every time?

 

[killatopak]

This place really does put these 'insiders' on a pedestal, has the dude ever called anything wrong before or is he right every time?

Well matt is not just any insider, he's an actual developer.

 

[wapplew]

No offense, man, but I think many of your posts are optimism without substance. Really, what you suggested here is nigh on impossible. You cannot simply put in desktop parts into a console without any modifications. A good gaming PC can draw over 300W at peak, the strongest ones easily over 400W if need be. A console will probably draw 220W at most. If I recall, a desktop Zen CPU requires 90W alone, and that's taking into account GPU, RAM and other components. The GPU is the component that draws the highest wattage, so if they straight up fit in a 90W CPU, you can forget about a good GPU, what more a 6TFlops one. There is a reason Jaguar was chosen despite being very weak.

Edit: And I haven't even brought up die sizes. Many in this thread think it's as simple as price, power and competition.

Regardless, I think MS will use whatever solution to achieve 1080p 60fps. Because I think native 4K make very little difference.

 

[spannicus]

Regardless, I think MS will use whatever solution to achieve 1080p 60fps. Because I think native 4K make very little difference.

Native 4k makes a huge difference. Will they be able to achieve it most of the time who knows. If they wanted 1080p 60fps why wait until the end of 2017?

 

[Durante]

Tell us how a CEO saying something like "We can provide Zen semi-customs next year" will break any NDA with MS or other client? Is MS the owner of every Zen semi-custom?

And that coming from AMD who always loves suggest new console products in their earning calls without mention any client.

I think that's a pretty convincing point.

 

[Cartho]

Regardless, I think MS will use whatever solution to achieve 1080p 60fps. Because I think native 4K make very little difference.

They can achieve 1080p60 now. Devs can do it, they need to want to. I'm not sure we will see GTA VI running at 60 fps on Scorpio even if it technically could do. Devs will choose to push visuals and maintain 30.

60 fps is a choice. Many devs aren't taking it.

 

[killatopak]

They can achieve 1080p60 now. Devs can do it, they need to want to. I'm not sure we will see GTA VI running at 60 fps on Scorpio even if it technically could do. Devs will choose to push visuals and maintain 30.

60 fps is a choice. Many devs aren't taking it.

I feel that it's largely a compromise and not a choice especially with the weak cpus we have. I'm sure more devs would op to have 60fps given the chance.

It's pretty hard to do now though even with the new console upgrades especially with mp since they have to match the base models.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Lets look at what they promised so far.

Could have a 6tf, 320GBps memory bandwidth machine been avaiable during holiday 2016?

If yes - what could be the possible specs?

If no - what do we need to get AMD up to those specs?

Or is the only 'plausible' reason ms waiting a year was for VEGA, because it wasnt avail in 2016?

Actually a year and a half.

You don't wait a year and a half for nothing. They're waiting to get the most powerful innards that can be squeezed into a $399 box by November 2017 without taking too big a hit.

 

[Javin98]

Regardless, I think MS will use whatever solution to achieve 1080p 60fps. Because I think native 4K make very little difference.

See, that's the problem. You can't simply think that a corporation can or will do anything to hit a specific target. The requirements have to be met before it can even be considered. In this case, there is absolutely no way to fit a full on desktop Zen part into a console without breaching the power envelope significantly. Also, I think MS is aiming for native 4K, it is hella more marketable than 60FPS. Very little difference? That's fine, it's your opinion, but image quality is greatly enhanced with native 4K. Jaggies and shimmering are reduced dramatically, fine and intricate details are resolved much better, the slight blur from TAA solutions become irrelevant. Hardly a small difference if you have an eye for tech.

 

[LukasTaves]

Tell us how a CEO saying something like "We can provide Zen semi-customs next year" will break any NDA with MS or other client? Is MS the owner of every Zen semi-custom?

And that coming from AMD who always loves suggest new console products in their earning calls without mention any client.

They always suggest their console wins, they never specify what is inside their wins. The info from gamecube, 360, ps4 and xbone and pro all came from Nintendo, Ms and Sony themselves.

They already hinted about a console win in 2017, and later said that this win was Scorpio, so they are on par to all info they always provided. Now it's up to ms to disclose what's inside just like they always have.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Well matt is not just any insider, he's an actual developer.

I'm not doubting that in anyway shape or form, all im saying is that doesn't give him insight into everything that is going on in this industry though.

I might be misremembering this but weren't there Sony first party studios that didn't know about GDDR5 until the last minute?

I'm not saying that Matt hasn't not heard anything about a CPU boost but just because he hasn't doesn't mean its fact one way or the other.

Personally I don't think Scorpio has Zen but I'm only going with the information available in the public domain and that doesn't mean that I'm right either though.

How many more threads do we get until its official one way or the other, lol?

 

[Kayant]

They always suggest their console wins, they never specify what is inside their wins. The info from gamecube, 360, ps4 and xbone and pro all came from Nintendo, Ms and Sony themselves.

They already hinted about a console win in 2017, and later said that this win was Scorpio, so they are on par to all info they always provided. Now it's up to ms to disclose what's inside just like they always have.

Yes but hinting at a console win in 2017 /=/ Zen. The point in discussion in that quote was about Zen and has been discussed it doesn't allude to Zen semi-custom wins of any kind in 2017.

 

[Zuzzissm0]

Regardless, I think MS will use whatever solution to achieve 1080p 60fps. Because I think native 4K make very little difference.

MS will and have to go native 4k with their own games period

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The thing is these consoles have a long lead time, they don't just throw them together at the last minute. There's a lot of design and testing involved. So the Scorpio hardware needs to be finalised like round about right now, maybe even a few months ago.

So although it releases in essentially the beginning of 2018, it's actually a 2016 piece of hardware in terms of tech availability. Which means that the chances of it having a CPU that even AMD themseves don't have on the shelves yet is incredibly slim.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

MS will and have to go native 4k with his own games period

They sort of have to, in order to justify the investment to consumers. Halo and Forza are already 1080p/60fps.

You can't market "slightly better image quality" for $400. They've already made the marketing commitment of saying first party games will be native 4k, I think for at least the first 6 months after launch, that will stick.

 

[LukasTaves]

Yes but hinting at a console win in 2017 /=/ Zen. The point in discussion in that quote was about Zen and has been discussed it doesn't allude to Zen semi-custom wins of any kind in 2017.

But she already said that Scorpio was their only semi custom win for 2017, and that they have some wins outside of console business but only for 18 and beyond. So saying Zen in a semi custom design would be pretty much disclosing what's inside Scorpio.

That's actually why I think she talks about roadmap, and not a direct answer on whether or not there will be a zen in an apt this year, it's basically, she are not disclosing what's inside Scorpio but you can be sure that going forward our wins will be Zen based.

Last year they also announced Polaris without any single mention or hint that it was inside of Pro so we know that. Tech announced just before can make it into the console and that they wouldn't even hint it.

 

[Opt1kon_]

I'm excited to just see what Microsoft Has up their sleevesfor the Scorpio, I love my PS4Pro but it'll be good to have three systems that actually work almost on par with one another PC|PRO|Scorpio and the switch it's going to be an amazing year for gamers

 

[Wollan]

Once consoles start to receive Zen CPU's I think it's important for all developers to start targeting 60fps as standard. We will be seeing the same as we're seeing on the PC desktop market with CPU's having reached a certain plateau.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Once consoles start to receive Zen CPU's I think it's important for all developers to start targeting 60fps as standard. We will be seeing the same as we're seeing on the PC desktop market with CPU's having reached a certain plateau.

They wont, because console gamers have shown time and time again that they are perfectly happy with low framerates. And this gives devs more room to push graphics which appear to be a more obvious selling feature to most gamers.

It's sad but it is what it is. 60fps should have been the baseline years ago.

 

[etta]

I'm not sure about what will go in, but I DO remember Spencer specifically going on record to say they wanted to wait for newer tech when planning Scorpio.

Damn, E3 can't come soon enough..

They must be waiting for that new disc drive tech yo, all about that fresh disc playing capabilities.

 

[etta]

from what we know it will be an 8 core zen CPU. Your not fitting a desktop CPU into a console in an APU or even a non APU.

Stop saying ridiculous stuff guys

Actually if there was someone crazy enough to do that, it'd be that Panos Panera guy and his team.
Look at how much shit they crammed into the Surface Book.


Ah shieet dp.

 

[hanspampel]

I'm not sure about what will go in, but I DO remember Spencer specifically going on record to say they wanted to wait for newer tech when planning Scorpio.

Damn, E3 can't come soon enough..

this is correct.

and the difference between end of 2016 and end of 2017 is the following:
- AMD Vega GPU technology ready (and already released)
- AMD Zen CPU technology ready (and already released)
- GloFo 14nnFF process matured


What ever combination of those tech Microsoft will use in the Xbox Scorpio soc is still unknown and specualtion. NOTHING is confirmed yet about that.
no Zen is also not confirmed at all. so it baffles me how many people here call it a given and confirmed by the ceo

 

[killatopak]

They wont, because console gamers have shown time and time again that they are perfectly happy with low framerates. And this gives devs more room to push graphics which appear to be a more obvious selling feature to most gamers.

It's sad but it is what it is. 60fps should have been the baseline years ago.

Why do you think devs won't target 60fps in some of the games right now? I'm sure they can but they need to compromise some stuff in order to do that. Physics in a game can be demanding as well and could be one of the reasons that they won't release a 60fps version.

I'm sure that what you're saying is true in the future and they'll still release 30fps games but I can be sure that there would be gameplay and visual improvements because of that as well. Real time ray tracing is very demanding on cpus and I would prefer that over 60fps in some games like cinematic ones.

 

[JaseC]

no Zen is also not confirmed at all. so it baffles me how many people here call it a given and confirmed by the ceo

While, yes, Su hasn't stated categorically that Scorpio won't use Zen, that she's twice ruled out AMD accepting semi-custom Zen contracts before 2018/19 leaves a desktop unit as the only option and Scorpio isn't going to be an HTPC. Perhaps more to the point, there isn't actually an 8c/8t SKU for the desktop, meaning the only way for Microsoft to get such a part would be to work with AMD on a bespoke design, which -- to take us full circle -- won't be an option until 2018/19. Zen is a square peg and Scorpio a round hole -- they just don't fit together.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Doesnt matt like sony more though? Im not a detective though.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Why do you think devs won't target 60fps in some of the games right now? I'm sure they can but they need to compromise some stuff in order to do that. Physics in a game can be demanding as well and could be one of the reasons that they won't release a 60fps version.

I'm sure that what you're saying is true in the future and they'll still release 30fps games but I can be sure that there would be gameplay and visual improvements because of that as well. Real time ray tracing is very demanding on cpus and I would prefer that over 60fps in some games like cinematic ones.

Que?

Obviously some devs make 60fps console games right now, I've played them. Although they generally fail to hit the target consistently.

But the poster was talking about it being the default standard for all games. Which just wont happen unless the majority of console gamers demand it.

As for the Scorpio, Penello has already said that the target is to take the XB1 game and run it at the same framerate on Scorpio at a much higher resolution. That's mainly the work of the GPU, which is another indicator that the Scorpio doesn't have a monster CPU. Because it doesn't need one for what it aims to do.

 

[Javin98]

Doesnt matt like sony more though? Im not a detective though.

I don't know, do you like Microsoft more? Does that guy there like Nintendo more? How about that other guy? Does it really matter? Do you think he will jeopardize his own reputation as an insider just because of "favouritism"?

 

[killatopak]

Que?

Obviously some devs make 60fps console games right now, I've played them. Although they generally fail to hit the target consistently.

But the poster was talking about it being the default standard for all games. Which just wont happen unless the majority of console gamers demand it.

As for the Scorpio, Penello has already said that the target is to take the XB1 game and run it at the same framerate on Scorpio at a much higher resolution. That's mainly the work of the GPU, which is another indicator that the Scorpio doesn't have a monster CPU. Because it doesn't need one for what it aims to do.

It won't be a standard unless MS and Sony drops the base console support at the very least it won't be a standard to Scorpio even if it does have a zen cpu because of the said circumstance.

I think it's actually more about the machine and not the demand but I can see how the situation is different compared to the ps2/gc/xbox era where 60fps games were more common and people aren't really demanding 60fps back then.

 

[hanspampel]

Su twice ruling out AMD accepting semi-custom Zen contracts before 2018/19 leaves a desktop unit as the only option and Scorpio isn't going to be an HTPC.

no she did not
is reading comprehension this bad these days?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227743757&postcount=283

i don't know hot that equals to 100% not anything zen architecture related in any semi customs design win before 2018/19.


even the ps4 pro soc has some vega technology in it

 

[JaseC]

no she did not
is reading comprehension this bad these days?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227743757&postcount=283

I've listened to that conference and have typed out her response myself in the past. While she was asked about higher-end market segments, her answer is more general. It's not within the context framed by the question -- notice that she broadly refers to AMD's Zen roadmap and refers to the technology as a "foundational IP that can go into a number of different markets" (emphasis mine). You're focusing on the question more than the answer itself.

even the ps4 pro soc has some vega technology in it

That would be promising if Vega and Zen were one and the same, but alas they're not. It's quite common for console GPUs to be of a "mix and match" design. E.g. There were no PC GPUs with unified shaders when the X360 launched.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

I don't know, do you like Microsoft more? Does that guy there like Nintendo more? How about that other guy? Does it really matter? Do you think he will jeopardize his own reputation as an insider just because of "favouritism"?

Well since we dont know who he really is his, or where he works, his info is regarded higher than others and a bias can definitely lead to a certain perspective.

His reputation wouldnt go anywhere because you know more ppl own a ps4 in this forum than the competitor.

What if we had someone who was a third party dev that favored ms more and then provided details about the next sony console? Hmmmmm, youd ask why? Is he lieing cause of his bias? Is this the truth? Or could he have simply not said anything at all?

Its really simple to come to these questions when validitity is the main key factor in argument here.

Im not dismissing his posts but you always should question motives if someone has that knowledge/power.

 

[icespide]

His reputation wouldnt go anywhere because you know more ppl own a ps4 in this forum than the competitor.

What if we had someone who was a third party dev that favored ms more and then provided details about the next sony console? Hmmmmm, youd ask why? Is he lieing cause of his bias? Is this the truth? Or could he have simply not said anything at all?

what does this even mean?

 

[Javin98]

Well since we dont know who he really is his, or where he works, his info is regarded higher than others and a bias can definitely lead to a certain perspective.

His reputation wouldnt go anywhere because you know more ppl own a ps4 in this forum than the competitor.

What if we had someone who was a third party dev that favored ms more and then provided details about the next sony console? Hmmmmm, youd ask why? Is he lieing cause of his bias? Is this the truth? Or could he have simply not said anything at all?

Its really simple to come to these questions when validitity is the main key factor in argument here.

Im not dismissing his posts but you always should question motives if someone has that knowledge/power.

It's just really sad how you have to reassure yourself that a proven insider isn't telling the full truth just because what he was told doesn't line up with your hopes and dreams. To make matters worse, you accuse him of twisting his words because of bias. Really goddamn sad and petty.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

what does this even mean?

If a dev provides info - how reliable can it be if we know they have certain bias toward a company? Just providing the other spectrum that could be in play.

Ppl asked if itll blow it out the water he said - no - ppl asked if ms needs to swallow pride he said - they need to do more than that. I didnt do more resesrch on his past post history but i remember posts that swayed to the other camp than anything favoring ms in any type of comment.

Since he is a dev his word is gold and labeled as "fact".

Again im not saying he is wrong. Just bringing up the question is all since ppl are regarding his posts as facts.

It's just really sad how you have to reassure yourself that a proven insider isn't telling the full truth just because what he was told doesn't line up with your hopes and dreams. To make matters worse, you accuse him of twisting his words because of bias. Really goddamn sad and petty.

Im not twisting anything lol relax. I dont even know how he has been verified just what others post after he says something.

My hopes and dreams? Come on most of my posts about being realistic lead to not zen but them waiting for vega with a game lineup to showoff the hardware.

And i said i dont think he is wrong just questioning it. Lmao gee now that is sad you think im attacking him.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Did anyone take you up on this yet? If not I'll take you up on it. Just for fun.

Officially, if it's zen, you pick my avatar. If it's not I'll pick yours. Deal?

Deal. *digital shake*

 

[icespide]

I didnt do more resesrch on his past post history but i remember posts that swayed to the other camp than anything favoring ms in any type of comment.

what camps?? there are camps now? is this a "if you're not for us you're against us" thing?

 

[LukasTaves]

That would be promising if Vega and Zen were one and the same, but alas they're not. It's quite common for console GPUs to be of a "mix and match" design. E.g. There were no PC GPUs with unified shaders when the X360 launched.

But xenos was basically the amd gpu for the next year after 360 launch, with the difference that they replaced edram with a ring bus that ended ultimately failing.

IIRC, back them ms helped ati developed the unified shaders to help them to hit the dx10 deadline on the condition Ati had to wait a year to launch a gpu with the same advancements.

 

[krang]

Well since we dont know who he really is his, or where he works, his info is regarded higher than others and a bias can definitely lead to a certain perspective.

His reputation wouldnt go anywhere because you know more ppl own a ps4 in this forum than the competitor.

What if we had someone who was a third party dev that favored ms more and then provided details about the next sony console? Hmmmmm, youd ask why? Is he lieing cause of his bias? Is this the truth? Or could he have simply not said anything at all?

Its really simple to come to these questions when validitity is the main key factor in argument here.

Im not dismissing his posts but you always should question motives if someone has that knowledge/power.

Matt never said it wasn't Zen.

Spoiler

It's probably not Zen, though.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

what camps?? there are camps now? is this a "if you're not for us you're against us" thing?

Generalizing is something people write when they want to say something fast on their phone. My apologies if it seemed like i rally behind barbaric armies and want the heads of what other ppl like. Lol *eyeroll

Can a person ask a question to validate someone? Lol goodness gracious great balls of fire!

 

[Javin98]

Im not twisting anything lol relax. I dont even know how he has been verified just what others post after he says something.

My hopes and dreams? Come on most of my posts about being realistic lead to not zen but them waiting for vega with a game lineup to showoff the hardware.

And i said i dont think he is wrong just questioning it. Lmao gee now that is sad you think im attacking him.

Accusing someone of bias is not attacking sounds as ridiculous as calling someone is a liar is not attacking. I mean, sure, maybe you meant no offense, but your usage of terms such as camp seems to imply otherwise, no? Besides, I'm not the only one getting such vibes, so I'm not fully to blame for thinking so.

 

[op_ivy]

Zen or not i think a lot of people are going to be dissapointed if they think this is going to amount to much more than what was seen with ps4 to pro.

 

[Hoo-doo]

This place really does put these 'insiders' on a pedestal, has the dude ever called anything wrong before or is he right every time?

Lol, I'm more inclined to trust the inclinations of a verified developer who has a proven track record on insider information (Switch anyone?) over yet another one of Senjutsusage's wet dreams.

It's not like we don't have years of Senjutsu's post history on Xbox products to look back on. He seems to follow the mantra that if you repeat and double-down on something hard enough, it'll magically become true. He's been batting a zero with that one.

 

[icespide]

Generalizing is something people write when they want to say something fast on their phone. My apologies if it seemed like i rally behind barbaric armies and want the heads of what other ppl like. Lol *eyeroll

Can a person ask a question to validate someone? Lol goodness gracious great balls of fire!

you pretty much said because you can't remember Matt ever saying something positive about Microsoft you think he might be biased

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Accusing someone of bias is not attacking sounds as ridiculous as calling someone is a liar is not attacking. I mean, sure, maybe you meant no offense, but your usage of terms such as camp seems to imply otherwise, no?

Didnt know how to describe his non-positive posts towards anything ms, so i used bias. Sorry, no thesaurus avail. =/

Just want to know and asked a few questions is all.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Matt was wrong only the other week about the Switch, he isn't the holder of all information. And as far as we know the Scorpio final kits aren't even available yet, so nobody has concrete information on anything, except maybe a select few.

But in this case a Zen CPU is just the least likely outcome, so that's where anyone with any common sense is placing their money.

There was all the dumb talk in the Neo thread about red and blue pills, likely instigated by a Sony 'super fan'. It's the same thing here, only with a slightly more realistic chance, but not much.

It would be great, but people need to be prepared for the return of the electronic hamster wheel!

 

[Javin98]

Didnt know how to describe his non-positive posts towards anything ms, so i used bias. Sorry, no thesaurus avail. =/

Just want to know and asked a few questions is all.

Non positive posts?? I don't see several attempts to downplay or diss Microsoft in this thread or any other. ITT, he just claimed that what he heard was that devs were not briefed of a significant CPU upgrade, that's it. How is that non positive in any way? I guess it's non positive because it doesn't praise the Scorpio's hardware grunt? But it doesn't downplay it either. He is just stating what he heard. Calling him out for bias because of that is pretty uncalled for.

 

[hanspampel]

I've listened to that conference and have typed out her response myself in the past. While she was asked about higher-end market segments, her answer is more general. It's not within the context framed by the question -- notice that she broadly refers to AMD's Zen roadmap and refers to the technology as a "foundational IP that can go into a number of different markets" (emphasis mine). You're focusing on the question more than the answer itself.



That would be promising if Vega and Zen were one and the same, but alas they're not. It's quite common for console GPUs to be of a "mix and match" design. E.g. There were no PC GPUs with unified shaders when the X360 launched.

and like mentioned before, she is likely talking about future design wins.
scorpio is already a disclosed design win

so again. i don't get how someone makes a "100% not, without any slight doubt or possible chance of being a misunderstanding " out of that.
so what will you and all the other people say about this statement when the scorpio semi custom soc will have zen technology in it? even hypothetical?

 

[Colbert]

The ultimate in Microsoft engineering.

Das Xbox.

A Trabbi pulled by a horse: "Balanced architecture" LOL