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Screenwriting |OT|

B33

Banned
I don't mean to come across as antagonistic, but Syd Field's "Screenwriting" is not a great start for a fledgling writer. Field certainly has a grasp (not necessarily a firm one) of what constitutes a compelling screenplay, but his "3 act" dissemination is far too reductive and misses the point entirely.

The problem is that it inadvertently perpetuates some of the WORST traits in screenplays. When you're breaking a film, novel, comic, what have you, you must do what's right for the story and characters. Story is paramount to a compelling piece of work. There's no way around this. Whenever a film fails to fully resonate with an audience, the story is often the issue buried beneath a bunch of smaller problems.

In a writer's nascence, we often copy things in a trial and error sort of way to hone our voice. Many cling to structure as a means to justify their decisions, and with good reason! A screenplay requires MANY decisions to be made. The 3 act structure is certainly a structure we can understand and use to guide us in the writing process, but it's rudimentary and often too vague.

For example, without answering with a page count, what defines an act? What is an act break? What does a "rise to conflict" really mean, especially when it's the primary designator for "Act 2," per Field? I couldn't muster much of an answer after reading through "Screenplay." It left me befuddled.

Mixing this with a cursory understanding of "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" was more than likely how the screenplay for The Green Lantern ended up being made. And that film didn't resonate with the general audience, fans of the source material, or critics. It failed on three fronts, and yet it "technically" hits the marks elaborated upon in the books of Field and Campbell.

"Screenplay" was the first book I read on the subject and it certainly didn't help solidify the mechanics of storytelling or structure of a compelling narrative. In fact, I think it obfuscated things further for me.

Fellow writers, do yourself a favor...

Take this:

cyPXlaA.jpg

And toss it in a bin. Then fire said bin into the sun or something.

Instead, give this a read:


Skeptical? Peruse this: HULK’S SCREENWRITING 101 EXCERPT: THE MYTH OF 3 ACT STRUCTURE.

I can't heap enough praise on this book. It's helped me immensely in my own process and reaffirmed several things I already do. It's an indispensable guide to storytelling distilled through the typings of the big green brute. Don't let the ALL CAPS mislead you; he's sharp, erudite, and articulate... And, yes, it comes with a "Banner" version in normal capital letters.

Jump on it.

Then get back to writing.
 

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
A teacher told me once. "Get interested from your inspirations and don't get lazy about your foundations."

IMO, no one should take just one book or source material for granted when it comes to writing, or any type of creative endeavor for that matter. You get one starting point, study it, exercise it and then drop out the window whatever you think it's not helping you, then get another reference and repeat. At one point through trial and error you will start getting the drill and developing your own set of tools, leading to the piece you have in your head.

It's similar to drawing: You just don't study and practice from some art reference book by Andrew Loomis and then expect to nail every aspect of art making, In parallel you're expected to study and sketch from different aspects like life drawing, use different tools or study other visual influences, ultimately growing your own art approach.

So, in short: You learn the basics so you can hulksmash them later.
 
Finished in time for the Austin Film Festival, was wondering if anyone else submitted?

Also I'd like to offer a critique trade with anyone if they'd like to swap and annotate screenplays- I have a feature length horror script and would love the feedback. I know everyone is writing and reading as much as possible anyways but I'd like to throw it out there.
 
Q: Are you on Black List?

If yes, how is it going?

I'm thinking of giving it six months and then maybe pulling the plug, not the biggest fan of having an extra bill per month despite it being career fodder.
 

beat

Member
Anyone got links to advice on how to write TV treatments? Preferably sitcoms, but dramas/dramedys OK too. Or books they can recommend about this?
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Q: Are you on Black List?

If yes, how is it going?

I'm thinking of giving it six months and then maybe pulling the plug, not the biggest fan of having an extra bill per month despite it being career fodder.

I've never gotten above a 5. I turned in a screenplay that devolved into stock dialogue by the end and got a 5. Completely fixed it up over a month or two, sent it back in, and got a 4


Probably I just suck, but I'm not sure
 

Wasteman

Banned
I'm currently studying film production at Uni and going into my final year I'm going to be specialising in screenwriting. Originally I was planning on Cinematography but my screenwriting tutor swayed me as he was very pleased with my work. My final grade was 80%, which was the highest mark in the module for some time.

My script got chosen to me made so I was hoping some knowledgeable GAFer could give me some feedback. My script is Likes ML on the link.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ktzzasgaummv91w/AAATZvgK4d_qUpcBiNpub8wba

Even if you are just a keen reader any feedback would be great.
 
I've never gotten above a 5. I turned in a screenplay that devolved into stock dialogue by the end and got a 5. Completely fixed it up over a month or two, sent it back in, and got a 4


Probably I just suck, but I'm not sure

High five! While I've garnered good feedback, I've been given some interesting criticism I did not expect. I'm sure everyone says that though. These reviews were a 3 and 4 respectively:



I'll definitely be doing a rewrite based on some great suggestions in there, so I'd say the price of admission has been worth it.

Honestly though, I'm looking at the graphic novel route as a better home for R-rated creature horror.
 
I'm currently studying film production at Uni and going into my final year I'm going to be specialising in screenwriting. Originally I was planning on Cinematography but my screenwriting tutor swayed me as he was very pleased with my work. My final grade was 80%, which was the highest mark in the module for some time.

My script got chosen to me made so I was hoping some knowledgeable GAFer could give me some feedback. My script is Likes ML on the link.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ktzzasgaummv91w/AAATZvgK4d_qUpcBiNpub8wba

Even if you are just a keen reader any feedback would be great.
There are spelling, grammatical, and formatting errors everywhere.
 
I'm dyslexic as fuck haha any chance you could over look that ?
When you go to proofread or edit does your dyslexia prevent you from seeing every mistake? I'm not being dickish; I don't know what your disability (if you have one) prevents you from seeing.

There's a space before every question mark. Is there a reason for that?
 

Wasteman

Banned
When you go to proofread or edit does your dyslexia prevent you from seeing every mistake? I'm not being dickish; I don't know what your disability (if you have one) prevents you from seeing.

There's a space before every question mark. Is there a reason for that?

Dyslexia can mean you simply don't spot mistakes, even on multiple re-reads. This year I am getting extra help to get over this. It's nothing too debilitiating but it can get annoying haha
 
Do you legitimately have dyslexia?

You're being pretty rude, man. There must be a script writing program which underlines errors in the same way Microsoft Word would do? Obviously it won't solve all the problems but it should cut a pretty high percentage out.

Unrelated: Is Black List worth using for people who aren't in the US?
 
You're being pretty rude, man. There must be a script writing program which underlines errors in the same way Microsoft Word would do? Obviously it won't solve all the problems but it should cut a pretty high percentage out.

Unrelated: Is Black List worth using for people who aren't in the US?
The problem is people say, "Ho ho, I'm just a little dyslexic I guess" all the time when it comes to speaking or writing and it drives me nuts. I've lived with Aphasia for most of my life and joking like that makes it tough to discern if people are being serious or not.

So I asked him to clarify because if he is dyslexic, I'm going to offer to proof read his script.

And every single piece of screenwriting software I've ever used has a spell check, so I'm still not sure why some errors are there.

Edit: I misread his previous post where he did make it clear that he does have it. My mistake; I was running errands when I read it.

Please bump this thread tomorrow to remind me to proof your script.
 

Wasteman

Banned
I understand mate, I think I am just an awful spelling but according the test I took and a meeting with a psychiatrist I am dyslexic. I use celtx which does mess up sometimes with its spell check.

A proof read would be immensely appreciated .
 
First off, here's the PDF on my on-page edits to your script. The majority are grammatical and technical corrections, little to do with nuance.

Second, if you're going to be missing these grammatical issues because of a disability (or for whatever reason), it's absolutely imperative that you get someone to proof-read your work before you show it. If you were to send that original script to any producer or contest or anything, they'd immediately disregard it before getting past the first page.

If Celtix isn't working for you for this reason, I'd suggest checking out Fade In. The demo is free and the actual software is quite cheap. It also has an awesome full-screen mode that does away with all the clutter that comes with Celtix or Final Draft.

Good luck with your writing.
 

kai3345

Banned
Hey guys, finished up the first act of a pilot im writing. If someone could give me notes I'd really appreciate it, it's just 15 pages. Thanks!

Link
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
My buddy and I wrote a pilot, put it on Blacklist.

Review one: " As leads, Warren and Preston are strong characters, both silly and neurotic in their own distinct ways. Dialogue throughout is funny and deliriously zippy, forging that central bond between Preston and Warren expertly."

Review two: "There's nothing very original or exciting about this script, with its focus on mostly one-dimensional characters and a scattered story that never quite feels like it comes together."

We got a 5 and 4 respectively.
 

kai3345

Banned
My buddy and I wrote a pilot, put it on Blacklist.

Review one: " As leads, Warren and Preston are strong characters, both silly and neurotic in their own distinct ways. Dialogue throughout is funny and deliriously zippy, forging that central bond between Preston and Warren expertly."

Review two: "There's nothing very original or exciting about this script, with its focus on mostly one-dimensional characters and a scattered story that never quite feels like it comes together."

We got a 5 and 4 respectively.

I'm about halfway through, this shit it hysterical. The asian boy and splitting the room in half had me laughing pretty hard.
 
My buddy and I wrote a pilot, put it on Blacklist.

Review one: " As leads, Warren and Preston are strong characters, both silly and neurotic in their own distinct ways. Dialogue throughout is funny and deliriously zippy, forging that central bond between Preston and Warren expertly."

Review two: "There's nothing very original or exciting about this script, with its focus on mostly one-dimensional characters and a scattered story that never quite feels like it comes together."

We got a 5 and 4 respectively.

There are some good moments in this that made me laugh, but I'm leaning more towards two. They are pretty one-dimensional, I mean maybe you've gone all out to "establish" them in the pilot but you've got the straight guy and the funny guy and you pretty much ram it in my face the entire time.

Couple of jokes go on too long. Like for example the girl scout cookie thing. The punchline is really funny; seeing the empty boxes, but then Warren has another line to say which doesn't get a laugh so you're really just making the original joke longer, not funnier, and it dilutes it. Basically it's not as efficient a script as it could be. For a sit-com, efficiency is everything. There are other lines you could tighten up as well just to make it a bit punchier. Like

Code:
PHIL
Warren ran away and Preston is in
his room crying.

JUSTINE
Figures. This happens more than
you’d expect.

Justine really only needs to say "again?" to get a laugh.

I found the tone pretty confusing as well. On one hand it's really silly and childish (in a sit-com way, not the writing or anything) like with Mr. Smiley, or "the Asian guy," but then on the other hand you've got swearing in there too, but not really that much of it. It makes me wonder who the script is actually for. Like, before you started writing it did you have a channel and a time in mind where it would be aired? It feels like you're trying to appeal to all audiences while actually kind of alienating them all.

It feels like it doesn't really have its own plot. The whole thing is obviously the set-up for a new series and all, being a pilot, but you spend so long setting up the characters and how they got where they got that you had nothing left to actually give the episode its own story.

Some of the moments with Bao were good, like the line about how it's the biggest place he's lived. But the more it went on, it started to feel slightly uncomfortable. Especially the scene at Preston's "interview," which just uses that stereotype in a way that seemed more sinister than playful.
 
Writing three flashback scenes to add gravity to a character's current predicament still feels like "Dewey Cox has to think about his entire life before he plays" to me, but I understand why people want it. Can't we just have stone cold momentum and imagine what they're drawing on? Or is it that we like seeing see cause and effect in order to make a connection?

I dunno but I'll write them in anyways.
 
I had an idea for this fictional documentary (more along the line of cinema verite than found footage).

So now I'm in the process of viewing cinema verite documentaries to take inspiration from. Since I have so little experience with documentaries I really have to study their pacing and structure before I can start writing.
 
Writing three flashback scenes to add gravity to a character's current predicament still feels like "Dewey Cox has to think about his entire life before he plays" to me, but I understand why people want it. Can't we just have stone cold momentum and imagine what they're drawing on? Or is it that we like seeing see cause and effect in order to make a connection?

I dunno but I'll write them in anyways.

I'm with you on flashbacks, to me they seem kind of a lazy way to make you care about a character because the rest of the script couldn't manage it. "Oh, so here's why you should care by the way."

Flashbacks doesn't have to be the solution, people may want some history but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to paint it in nice bright colours for them, if you want to retain a little mystery. I'm sure there are cleverer ways to handle it, especially in a movie with supernatural overtones (unless I'm misunderstanding what it is you're referring to in that post, and I haven't read it).
 
I'm with you on flashbacks, to me they seem kind of a lazy way to make you care about a character because the rest of the script couldn't manage it. "Oh, so here's why you should care by the way."

Flashbacks doesn't have to be the solution, people may want some history but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to paint it in nice bright colours for them, if you want to retain a little mystery. I'm sure there are cleverer ways to handle it, especially in a movie with supernatural overtones (unless I'm misunderstanding what it is you're referring to in that post, and I haven't read it).
No, you are totally on the spot. To me I'd rather watch their reactions and wonder on that instead of being directly told "THIS IS WHAT SHE'S THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW".

Basically, I have a world-hardened lawyer who doesn't flinch at blood and guts. I can either have the enemies she'll confront ask her out loud why she's so tough (Fat Man in Maltese Falcon) or use extremely brief, non-vocal-expository flashes to similar situations in her past to better give reason as to why she's so cold. (Wonder what sins a corporate fixer could have in their closet hmmmmmmmm)

I wanted an audience to think afterwards what type of confrontations or dilemmas might have made the inner-city woman so badass, but I'll just be explicit instead.

Thought of a commercial drama the other day except it deals with 1930s Jim Crow south. Screams money maker right?

Final Draft is the world's worst program.

That's all.
With the power of a thousand suns!
 

ivysaur12

Banned
No, you are totally on the spot. To me I'd rather watch their reactions and wonder on that instead of being directly told "THIS IS WHAT SHE'S THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW".

Basically, I have a world-hardened lawyer who doesn't flinch at blood and guts. I can either have the enemies she'll confront ask her out loud why she's so tough (Fat Man in Maltese Falcon) or use extremely brief, non-vocal-expository flashes to similar situations in her past to better give reason as to why she's so cold. (Wonder what sins a corporate fixer could have in their closet hmmmmmmmm)

I wanted an audience to think afterwards what type of confrontations or dilemmas might have made the inner-city woman so badass, but I'll just be explicit instead.

Thought of a commercial drama the other day except it deals with 1930s Jim Crow south. Screams money maker right?


With the power of a thousand suns!

I personally don't really like flashbacks OR a complete expository reason why someone acts in a certain way (like, why she's so cold) because there isn't ever really one thing that makes someone do something -- it's a collection of our history and experiences. It usually comes off unnaturally instead of being a reflection on why someone is the way they are. If you're not showing how they actively transform from fade in to fade out, I wonder if you even need to give that type of backstory if it's not central to the narrative?
 
I personally don't really like flashbacks OR a complete expository reason why someone acts in a certain way (like, why she's so cold) because there isn't ever really one thing that makes someone do something -- it's a collection of our history and experiences. It usually comes off unnaturally instead of being a reflection on why someone is the way they are. If you're not showing how they actively transform from fade in to fade out, I wonder if you even need to give that type of backstory if it's not central to the narrative?
I don't know either. I feel like feedback is saying they want more reasons to believe in what she's doing (killing, cleaning up bodies, chasing fever dreams) and why she isn't flipping the fuck out and falling apart. I want to allude to lore I imagined for my own interpretation- that she's done enough questionable things for money and is open to the absurd and grim. I didn't want to necessarily define it because man, there's been a million "lawyer views corrupt system and self" scenes.

Interestingly enough it's already at 111 pages and it's marked down for being too terse with the descriptions- something I never thought I'd hear.
 
Small potatoes to some but not to me- my screenplay advanced to the final round of this year's Virginia Screenwriting Competition!!!

amen_Dance.gif


glassescat.gif


It also didn't go anywhere in the Austin Film Festival but who's counting?
 

lupinko

Member
I'm subscribing to this thread because I'm working on an adaptation and pilot spec script. And I'm actually taking this really seriously.

Any suggestions on writing software?

This is probably daydreaming too far but I'm aiming for this show to be on cable or streaming/Netflix.

I'm weary of the big networks although this project can interest them.
 

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
I'm subscribing to this thread because I'm working on an adaptation and pilot spec script. And I'm actually taking this really seriously.

Any suggestions on writing software?

This is probably daydreaming too far but I'm aiming for this show to be on cable or streaming/Netflix.

I'm weary of the big networks although this project can interest them.

If you use OS X, give Slugline a try. I love it to death. Makes Final Draft look for amateurs, and it's waaaay cheaper.

Now, for Windows, there's Fade In, which I can't recommend from personal experience, but if Rian Johnson gives a positive take on it, then I think it's worth taking a look at it.
 

Canon

Banned
I've used Google docs for writing a 200 page script with a friend (although honestly he's only written a few pages, but I use him to get reactions because it's fucking impossible to write a script without some immediate gratification).

As for what I wrote...

It's so unmarketable. I'm not even going to pretend it's going to be a movie. It's extremely niche, offensive, racist (needs to be)... but pretty damn brilliant, honestly. I actually read my own script for entertainment, and marvel at the fact I came up with something so awesome. I even get to use the bible in subtle "what the fuck" ways that most people wouldn't pick up on unless they cared enough to study it. It's very loosely based on a couple of real people who run a website (not this one), but it has almost nothing to do with reality -- it's so loosely based that it's almost a parody of movie adaptations (but that's not a real plot point, it's never in your face with that cliche message).

I've also got a few pages down for a sequel to Shark Tale. Yes, that Will Smith rip-off of Finding Nemo. It's a very dark reboot / sequel starring real humans who get turned into fish, or perhaps just hallucinate it. That would be one possible twist. It's hard R, obviously, but very serious and tasteful... well, not really.

Then I have an idea for a TV series about Hitler, an anime style version of him in which he attends regular Japanese high school. And the country of Japan is oblivious to the rest of the world being wiped out, they just start to get suspicious when the Hollywood movies stop being played in cinemas. God is heavily involved in this one.

I promise these are real things, but even typing them I fear I offended some people. But rest assured that's the point, it's really offensive and even though I don't want the "audience" to feel like they're in on the joke, I also don't want to be mean in the tone. Because again, I'm writing these primarily for me.
 
I use Fade In, which is awesome, since you can convert it into a Final Draft doc (or almost anything else) on the off chance you... want to do that for some reason. It's got a nice full screen mode too. It has a few small issues, but it's pretty solid for its price.
 

Busty

Banned
I've used Google docs for writing a 200 page script..,

I'm writing these primarily for me.

If you are treating these scripts as 'creative outlets' that are never supposed to see the light of day then fair enough but if you do...., ideally a spec script should be under 120 pages. I'd say try and shoot for 100 or 115 pages.

..., providing that you ever intend to let someone else read your script that is.
 

beat

Member
I'm subscribing to this thread because I'm working on an adaptation and pilot spec script. And I'm actually taking this really seriously.

Any suggestions on writing software?
Celtx and Trelby and Writer Duet are all free programs. Writer Duet is actually a web app but has a paid version too with offline support. Also, it was built to do online two person writing, I think.

I think Celtx and Trelby might not be quite good enough to submit to agencies, etc, but it's definitely good enough to write for yourself and still have a nicely formatted script.

Trelby also has decent Fountain support, which is nice.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Been writing since 12 (now 29) so may as well put this here.

Currently writing a horror script called Cabin To Hell. Anyone have any ideas as to the best place to submit it? I'm thinking horror production companies ideally. It doesn't require that high a budget. It's about a couple who visit her Grandmothers cabin, and slowly realise it's a gateway to Hell: and that her Grandmother went through the same situation fifty years ago and chose... poorly. One location, very violent and weird and as mentioned metatextual.

I mean I'm months away from finishing it, and the metatextual stuff will have to go, but am halfway through the first draft.
 
Been writing since 12 (now 29) so may as well put this here.

Currently writing a horror script called Cabin To Hell. Anyone have any ideas as to the best place to submit it? I'm thinking horror production companies ideally. It doesn't require that high a budget.

I mean I'm months away from finishing it, and the metatextual stuff will have to go, but am halfway through the first draft.

Don't send in your first draft.
 
I'm not going to. When I say months from finishing I mean a couple more drafts before submitting to people for feedback, then a draft (maybe two) before sending off to anyone official.
When you feel comfortable with what you have, here's a list of competitions I've found with specific horror submissions- keep in mind I'm on the outside of production land as well-

Screamfest
Shriekfest
Slamdance
Austin Film Festival
HP Lovecraft Festival
Zed Fest
Eerie Fest PA
Screenplay Festival LA
High Concept at SWN

If you join Withoutabox they'll forever be sending you lists of everything.

Coverage would have helped me tremendously in hindsight, but that's how you learn I imagine. Horror's fun isn't it? I'll be much mo' ready for festival season next year...

Edit: Also, anyone have any experience wIt's query letters? Half I hear it's pointless, others say they're still read.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Has anyone here read Robert McKee's book "Story"? What did you think of it?

It was a key part of my Masters in Scriptwriting course.

I wouldn't say it's the only book to read re: scriptwriting, but I'd definitely give it a gander. The trick is to read as many books and screenplays as possible. That way you know the rules, and then when you're writing scripts you can break them if the story demands it.
 
It was a key part of my Masters in Scriptwriting course.

I wouldn't say it's the only book to read re: scriptwriting, but I'd definitely give it a gander. The trick is to read as many books and screenplays as possible. That way you know the rules, and then when you're writing scripts you can break them if the story demands it.

I tried reading it once already, but something got in the way. So now I'm thinking about giving it another go. My problem is, that I'm not really interested in movies, so does anyone know a good book that was written specifically for TV writing?
 

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
I tried reading it once already, but something got in the way. So now I'm thinking about giving it another go. My problem is, that I'm not really interested in movies, so does anyone know a good book that was written specifically for TV writing?

Can't personally vouch for its quality but I have been told by colleagues and teachers that this Pam Douglas' book is very good.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1615930582/?tag=neogaf0e-20
 

beat

Member
I tried reading it once already, but something got in the way. So now I'm thinking about giving it another go. My problem is, that I'm not really interested in movies, so does anyone know a good book that was written specifically for TV writing?

I'm a poser who's never read Joseph Campbell, but...

The links here http://splitsider.com/2011/03/the-dan-harmon-school-of-comedy-writing/ plus these two http://danharmon.tumblr.com/post/57779240046/could-you-explain-your-story-breaking-process and http://danharmon.tumblr.com/post/57889437682/could-you-explain-a-particular-community-episode-with seem helpful to me.

As I understand it, the main differences between a writing a movie and (most) TV are: (1) a show needs the illusion of change because the characters need to stay in roughly the same place and use the same sets/locations, and (2) you need to specifically write strong act breaks if the show airs with commercial breaks.
 
I have a question about borrowing lines of dialogue from other movies (I guess you'd call them homages).

You see guys like Tarantino who will take a line of dialogue from another film and have their character say it. Does he have to pay a royalty for that or give some sort of credit? What is the legality of this exactly?
 
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