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[Messofanego]

After reading this longform article by Adam B Vary on Joss Whedon's "compromises" and "failures" with Avengers: Age of Ultron and especially after having seen the film, I got to thinking about what happened with both directors.

Christopher Nolan got to make three Batman films. Each with their own themes and motifs. He got to have his cake and eat it. Both the blockbuster and the artistic statement. Begins was about getting back up and conquering your fears. The Dark Knight was about terrorism in a post-9/11 time, whether a vigilante hero should even exist, and maybe he has too much power with NSA-like surveillance. The Dark Knight Rises shot right during the Occupy movement with its winter and Tale of Two Cities vibe, was about a world fractured (with nods to the No Man's Land storyline) and how a revolution would come about against the rich and Wall Street. Not to mention the arc of Batman in each: Begins is when he rises, TDK is when he has to go through various emotional/mental challenges (Rachel and Two Face), and TDKR is when he's aged so has to find one last way to end it all. Even with these varying themes, there was a signature throughout and was cohesive. All of the films feel singular and complete, rather than feeling episodic. If you were following the time between the Batman films, it didn't feel like Nolan was pressured to make sequels. He would say in interviews that he would only make them if he found the right story or theme to work on, to then put his stamp on. All the films end in climactic and almost bittersweet ways, rather than needing to sequel-bait as part of a franchise. He didn't have to participate and didn't even want to take part in a cinematic universe. No tie-ins to further movies. He got to give the character of Bruce Wayne a more satisfying conclusion than most of the comics, where he can give up the cape and live a normal life.

Spoiler

it was because of that finality that I honestly teared up a bit as a big Batman fan

Even besides the flaws, at least the Nolan Batman films were about something. They were relatable to our times. Yes, Nolan is more of an experienced filmmaker than Whedon, but Batman was also his first foray into big budget studio ventures. I have this fear for Brad Bird currently. Many experienced filmmakers lose their signature when folded into such situations. James Gunn lost it for Guardians of the Galaxy, if you compare his Troma and darkly comedic, shlocky features (Super, Slither) to the swashbuckling epic that is GoTG. Kenneth Branagh retained some of his Shakespeare theatrics for Thor, but there's not enough of those bits while the Earth sections take up the majority and are the blandest.

Maybe that's the inevitabily of being in the Marvel Machine. "Forget it, Jake. It's MAHVEL, baby."

The difference between working on one hero (Nolan with Batman) versus a team of superheroes (Whedon with Avengers) should be noted, although both were built on ensemble casts.

Sure, Whedon got his typical dialogue in. But it now seems clear that Joss Whedon wanted the Avengers movie to be about something, too. More than just summer blockbusters.

“I’m glad you could see this dramatic and Oscar-worthy scene that will no doubt be quoted for generations,” Whedon said minutes later in the director’s tent as the crew went through the final preparations to shoot the explosion. “‘Boom!’ children will say. ‘Boom!’”

“With Avengers 2, it’s like, I feel like I can do better,” he said. “It can mean more. And I can work harder. And I can enjoy it more.”

"I didn't do enough...Here's failure...Here's compromise."

Eight months later, however, as Whedon was close to completing Age of Ultron in time for its international debut on April 22, and U.S. debut May 1, he looked and sounded like he’d been hit by an exploding truck for real. His voice was choked into a ragged croak, and his lower lip sported a nasty-looking scab where it had split in half. “Well, I have been to the other side of the mountain,” he said. “I gotta say, it’s been dark. It’s been weird. It’s been horrible. About a month and a half ago, I said goodbye to my kids, and I’ve been living in Burbank next to the studio. I feel every day like, I didn’t do enough, I didn’t do enough, I didn’t do enough. I wasn’t ready. Here’s failure. Here’s failure. Here’s compromise. Here’s compromise.”

In practically the same breath, Whedon added that the worst, he hoped, was behind him. “I’m now coming out the other side, realizing that once again, for all its many varied and soon to be heralded flaws, it’s my movie,” he said. “It’s the movie I set out to make. And I have the honor of saying, it’s fucking bonkers. So there’s that.”

"By being smaller. More personal. More painful."

A little over a month before The Avengers opened in May 2012, Whedon was asked by the British magazine SFX how he might try to top the spectacle of the first film if he were to direct the sequel. “By not trying to,” he said. “By being smaller. More personal. More painful.”

What was that again about making the Avengers sequel smaller? “That has not gone my way,” Whedon said with a laugh en route home from the set in July. “I totes failed to make it smaller. There is a lot of movie.”

He tried his best with the second movie having a touch of introspection and character development

Spoiler

(hallucination flashbacks, Hawkeye's homes exploring their daily struggles)

but clearly a lot was left out in development and so the spectacle takes over the majority of the films. A lot of it felt rushed, much like the first Avengers movie. Then there's the generic end level army of mindless enemies. Sometimes I'm reminded of the Transformers movies, and how I got bored by them just going over the same things. This New York Times review by Manhola Dargis mirrors my feeling that the action setpieces felt "interminable and fatiguing", they kept on going but the characters would usually be more separate than feeling together, unlike say the recent Fast and Furious movie. Even if it's become a meme with F&F that they're all about family, the movies bear that vibe out in not just the downtime but also the setpieces so I'm at least invested.

Then all this stuff about having to put his hands on to all the other movies and especially Agents of SHIELD. From being hands-on to then handing it over to his bro, Jed. He really sounds exhausted by it all.

Another complicating factor with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: “They didn’t actually want me to make it,” said Whedon. “It’s like, ‘Uh, Joss, we really wanted you to do [Age of Ultron]. Instead you created a TV show, you moron.’ ‘I thought you wanted me to!’ ‘No, we just wanted you to make a movie.’ ‘Oh. My bad.’ … It went from being absolutely 100% the driving force and totally hands-on to ‘That sounds great, Jed! You should do that!’”

"I made the idiotic mistake of trying to make a great movie"

After a while, all that course correcting began to debilitate Whedon’s creative resolve. “I made the idiotic mistake of trying to make a great movie,” Whedon said with an exasperated growl. “I was like, ‘I want this movie to be great. I’m just going to go ahead and say it, even though I’m a WASP.’ And then I feel like I’ve been punished for that for the last two years. I put a level of pressure on myself that I’ve never done before. I’ve been a sketch artist, and now I’m painting. And then also to know there are not millions, but billions of dollars riding on your artistic decisions?” He dropped into a terrified muppet-y voice. “Err, uhh, sometimes you wish you could forget that.”

For the first time in Whedon’s career, however, he couldn’t. “The dollars, what’s riding on this, the burden of having done the first one and trying to come up to that level started to freak me out in the way it never has,” he said. One of the biggest audiences Buffy the Vampire Slayer ever reached was for an episode that ranked 78th in the ratings for the week. But now Whedon’s own yardstick is the third-highest-grossing movie of all time. “I feel like I have to make a movie good enough to be the next third-highest-grossing movie of all time,” he said. “I do feel like if it doesn’t make a certain ridiculous amount of money, I will have failed the people who have faith in me. I’ll fold in on myself.”

“And if I don’t do that, if I haven’t brought you on that journey and closed it out, fuck me. That’s the danger of this sort of serialized storytelling, turning the motion picture experience into episodic TV."

“There’s a lot about the experience that has been debilitating, to the point where at one time I thought, Oh, I’ve lost it. I lost the movie. I don’t know what I have here. I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know what you’re going to ask me to promote.”

Whedon’s initial cut for Age of Ultron was over three hours, and his own desire to make the movie shorter than its predecessor meant he had to lose a great deal of the character-building he’d written — including more details about Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, and more backstory for Scarlett Johansson’s Black Widow — while also ensuring there was enough room in his film for hints at what was still to come in the MCU. Some of that seeding was actually accidental. Whedon said he cast Andy Serkis as war profiteer Ulysses Klaue, one of the main villains for Marvel Comics superhero Black Panther, months before he learned that Marvel Studios was going to make a Black Panther movie. And when Whedon wrote and shot a pointed confrontation between Steve Rogers and Tony Stark, he said he didn’t realize they would literally become enemies in next year’s Captain America: Civil War. Other elements, however — like suggesting the world-ending plans of a certain powerful purple alien who first popped up after the credits of 2012’s The Avengers — were much more deliberate. And they put Whedon at odds with one of his most deeply held convictions, that a feature film should always be its own discrete story, with a clear beginning, middle, and end.

“No matter how much they may talk about, ‘Well, this is going to lead to some terrible stuff down the line,’ in my movie, it’s designed to be a complete experience,” he said. “And if I don’t do that, if I haven’t brought you on that journey and closed it out, fuck me. That’s the danger of this sort of serialized storytelling, turning the motion picture experience into episodic TV. Because we have episodic TV, and now you don’t even have to wait to watch it, you can binge it. So that’s to me a dreadful mistake.”

Whedon chuckled bitterly. “Somebody said, ‘Well, that was a great setup for the next thing!’ in one of the test screenings, and I died inside. [Marvel executives] were like, ‘No! They say that all the time, it’s fine.’ I was like, ‘No, that’s the worst thing I could have heard.’ I want people to come out feeling done.”

And Whedon is done, with Marvel Studios, at least for the foreseeable future. On set in July, in fact, he was already pretty clear that he wanted to move on, in his Joss Whedon way: “My dad said about quitting Captain Kangaroo, ‘You know, I figured out all the ways there are to have Ping-Pong balls rain on a bunny.’” In April, after months of well-reported negotiations, Captain America: Civil War directors Joe and Anthony Russo officially signed on to direct the two-part Avengers: Infinity War, and Whedon had no regrets. Mostly.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Nolan the GOAT

 

[Salsa]

like everyone who gets big there'll be cynical people everyhwere

you see the hate Nolan gets? he's a joke to a lot of people now too, and the dark knight trilogy is one of the most "hated upon looking back" movies that everyone loved when they came out that I can think of

regarding artistic integrity it's kinda hard to tell. I think both Avengers films are very clearly Whedon™ films and now that he (in a smart move) is distancing himsefl from them we'll probably see where he ends up, but it's probably a better place with a lot more leverage than what he previously had

I mean, you have a point, but Nolan had already made Memento and was moving that way whereas Whedon was a dude with a big fan base but just a bunch of cancelled TV shows beyond his 90s legacy, and then he got to make the biggest movie ever.

I doubt he regrets anything or that this was in any way BAD in general for him, I just think he's being smart about it.

 

[Messofanego]

I hope whatever projects Whedon works on next is more creatively fulfilling for him.

 

[Schweinehund]

That's too bad, I enjoyed A2 but I would have liked to see more of what Whedon wanted. I loved the hawkeye scenes.

 

[munchie64]

Damn there's some kinda sad stuff in there for me as a film lover.

I hope both directors go on to things they truly enjoy, no matter what that is.

 

[Shaanyboi]

The difference is that Whedon desperately wanted to present the characters that he loves. For him, it's "I desperately wanna see Tony make fun of Cap. I wanna see Vision talk to Ultron about humanity. I wanna see the roster change like it does in the comics. I wanna see Hulk and Thor duke it out on-screen."

Nolan seemed to have an image ahead of time for the tone of what kind of movie he wanted to make, and tried slotting in these pre-existing characters through a filter to make it work. "I want Gotham to look like Blade Runner in some areas. What if Batman was like Heat?"

Both had their successes and failures, but there really was no right way. Both came from very different places.


As far as the future goes, I think Nolan told the story he wanted to tell (minus the fact that DKR wasn't the third film he intended due to Ledger's death, apparently). Whedon, I still wanted to see what he would do with characters in the future. I know he'd come at the material from a place of love and reverence. There were alot of scenes in AoU that I honestly couldn't imagine other writer/directors in this genre putting in, and I don't mean the joke stuff. Hopefully Whedon can still consult to a degree that allows him to make what he wants to make, but still offer insight. I will follow both of their future works closely.

 

[Salsa]

Whedon getting to make an Avengers film is almost as big a left field to me as RDJ being cast as Tony

it makes so much sense when you think about it but it's one of those things you just couldnt envision happening

 

[CrichtonKicks]

I think the most important thing is to get into another project relatively quickly. The longer he waits, the more expectations build and warp. I think that's one of the things I admire about Nolan- he never rests. He moved right into Inception from TDK and right into Interstellar after TDKR and just started working on something else.

 

[liliththepale]

How much of that has to do with jamming half a dozen disparate characters together in Avengers? When you're doing that, the theme can't be much more than "work better together".

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Christopher Nolan made Momento. Sit down on your toilet and contemplate on how insane backwards that movie is. Momento is like so insane, you literally will go insane if you try and deconstruct it. And believe me I have tried. Because I tried taking another film and doing the same thing and it doesn't work.


I don't understand how the pay off, could also be the revelation and at the same time being the kick off. It's like it takes everything I have ever learned about structure, 3 act, heroes journey and just throws it in a meat grinder. and..


It's not a entertaining film. It's not a fun film, but that film is one of the best I have ever seen and Nolan is a goddamn hero for making that.

 

[Sephzilla]

"Superhero movies were a mistake, it's nothing but trash"

 

[Salsa]

also tho, truck load of salt with this article. It clearly sets out to do something and end up in a certain place and then relies on basically on-set "tales" and some big conjectures based on stuff like tone of voice.

it's a nice story to talk about the beat up director that didnt achieve what he set out to do and dealings with the big bad studio but I doubt it's as black and white. dude's just tired and the whole scope of this thing is just understandably alien to him

 

[akira28]

the only good nolan bat was the first. joker bat was completely carried by health leger, two face wasn't even there or relevant, and batman was merely a plot prop.

the third wasn't even worth watching, and is not worth commenting about.

 

[Hagi]

I think he would've been better suited to a solo film where he had a bit more room to breathe when it came to character development and such. There's so much to fit in with these event movies that it seems like things have to move at such a break neck pace to reach the next beat that it seems like he was constantly compromising with what he actually wanted to do.

I enjoy these movies but I can't say I'd ever like to work on one.

 

[Lagamorph]

Avengers trumps the Dark Knight trilogy any day.

 

[Messypandas]

And Nolan gets back-end points on his film. I think Inception topped out earning him nearly 100 million. TDKR even more. Whedon was probably lucky to get his car parking validated at Marvel.

 

[Penguin]

I thought you were gonna say because Nolan got to make his own pet-projects in-between like Inception and I believe The Prestige

 

[Bloodrage]

Avengers trumps the Dark Knight trilogy any day.

If you're like 5 years old.

 

[Karkador]

This is probably more to do with the difference between Marvel and Disney having a giant, all-consuming plan for all their comic book movies vs. DC and Warner shrugging their shoulders and letting the directors do whatever.

 

[Ahasverus]

Of course he did, Nolan made HIS movies, good or bad (Spoiler: They're the best comic book movie series, by far) they were HIS and only death could change his plans. I'm SURE there is a good, reat movie inside AoU, but the super machinery just has him tied.

I thought you were gonna say because Nolan got to make his own pet-projects in-between like Inception and I believe The Prestige

This too. The Batman deal gave Nolan the keys to Warner Bros, and to blockbuster territory.

 

[BronsonLee]

Whedon getting to make an Avengers film is almost as big a left field to me as RDJ being cast as Tony

it makes so much sense when you think about it but it's one of those things you just couldnt envision happening

Yeah, pretty much. The guy who made Firefly/Serenity doing Avengers? He knows how to write a group of unique people. And IMO, the action scenes for Avengers are basically comic book panels brought to life. And that's amazing.

And Nolan gets back-end points on his film. I think Inception topped out earning him nearly 100 million. TDKR even more. Whedon was probably lucky to get his car parking validated at Marvel.

Whedon probably has carte blanche for the rest of his career now, just like Nolan.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Whedon gets the characters. Obviously it's not a best case scenario and it's not a perfect film, but I'll suffer through some rough studio editing to get a great movie with characters that I love.

 

[ezekial45]

Yeah, that last block is pretty damning. I thought Marvel was a lot more organized than that. It did seem weird that Cap and Stark seemed pretty friendly towards each other at the end of the movie, despite the fact that we know gonna fight each other in CapAm 3.

 

[Messypandas]

Whedon probably has carte blanche for the rest of his career now, just like Nolan.

Yep. Just like Shane Black.

 

[liliththepale]

Avengers trumps the Dark Knight trilogy any day.

There's nothing wrong with this opinion, but unless you give some well reasoned explanation for why you think so, you're just bringing shit into the thread and trying to rile people up.

 

[Abraxas]

I'd love to see a three hour cut, that would be great.

 

[Sephzilla]

Avengers trumps the Dark Knight trilogy any day.

I honestly think it's hard to compare Avengers and Nolan's movies. Avengers is summer fun "holy shit, superheroes" while Nolan's Bat movies are more grounded crime superhero movies. This being said, The Dark Knight's writing isn't nearly as solid as people think it is. And we usually have a thread once a month devoted to how quickly TDKR falls apart.

 

[Dead]

So basically Marvel Studios is the death of Cinema

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Yeah, that last block is pretty damning. I thought Marvel was a lot more organized than that. It did seem weird that Cap and Stark seemed pretty friendly towards each other at the end of the movie, despite knowing they're gonna fight each other in CapAm 3.

It's not like Steve and Tony butting heads is something unique to Civil War. It was always a direction the MCU could go in, Whedon didn't necessarily take it into consideration when making his film, but he is writing the characters in a faithful manner that will take them to the logical next step.

 

[Abounder]

Says it all

 

[BronsonLee]

Yep. Just like Shane Black.

...You can see the difference between the two, yes?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

The smaller scenes felt really out of place contrasted against the ridiculous action going on all the time. These characters are all so much larger than life that when Hawkeye starts living the farm life I was legitimately wondering for a minute whether this was some Scarlet Witch dream sequence thing where she tries to trap characters in their fantasies. The thing it reminded me the most of was Star Trek: Generations, which isn't really a comparison you want to invite. I'm not saying the overall movie is bad, just to clarify. And if it was it certainly wouldn't be as bad as that stinker.

If Marvel was fighting to make it bigger, better, bader and Whedon was fighting to make it smaller, more personal and more meaningful, that would I guess explain why I thought parts were so strangely dissonant. And honestly I'm not sure personal and small is a direction these films should go, or at least it shouldn't go that way in half measures.

 

[Corpsepyre]

I am yet to watch the movie. Will do so this week. However, I knew that the movie would contain swarms of no-name Ultrons, like the first movie did. It's something I want finished! Enough of that crap! How about ACTUAL villains to take on rather than swarms of copy-pastes?

 

[Salsa]

The smaller scenes felt really out of place contrasted against the ridiculous action going on all the time. These characters are all so much larger than life that when Hawkeye starts living the farm life I was legitimately wondering for a minute whether this was some Scarlet Witch dream sequence thing where she tries to trap characters in their fantasies. .

he just really wanted to do a TMNT homage

If Marvel was fighting to make it bigger, better, batter and Whedon was fighting to make it smaller, more personal and more meaningful, that would I guess explain why I thought parts were so strangely dissonant. And honestly I'm not sure personal and small is a direction these films should go, or at least it shouldn't go that way in half measures.

the weird part about this is that they then get the Russo brothers to make Avengers 3

the guys who made the captain america movie be a shield-scope kinda spy thriller instead of the big badass superhero film

 

[Schweinehund]

The smaller scenes felt really out of place contrasted against the ridiculous action going on all the time. These characters are all so much larger than life that when Hawkeye starts living the farm life I was legitimately wondering for a minute whether this was some Scarlet Witch dream sequence thing where she tries to trap characters in their fantasies. The thing it reminded me the most of was Star Trek: Generations, which isn't really a comparison you want to invite. I'm not saying the overall movie is bad, just to clarify. And if it was it certainly wouldn't be as bad as that stinker.

If Marvel was fighting to make it bigger, better, batter and Whedon was fighting to make it smaller, more personal and more meaningful, that would I guess explain why I thought parts were so strangely dissonant. And honestly I'm not sure personal and small is a direction these films should go, or at least it shouldn't go that way in half measures.

I liked it quite a bit when things slowed down. I got the feeling when I was done watching avengers 2 that a lot of things happened in a short amount of time onscreen but little of it felt meaningful.

 

[BronsonLee]

he just really wanted to do a TMNT homage

If he really wanted to do that, Tony Stark should've been dead in a bathtub and then magically recover!

 

[Prine]

Avengers trumps the Dark Knight trilogy any day.

lol

 

[Messypandas]

...You can see the difference between the two, yes?

Please tell me.

 

[YoungFa]

also tho, truck load of salt with this article. It clearly sets out to do something and end up in a certain place and then relies on basically on-set "tales" and some big conjectures based on stuff like tone of voice.

it's a nice story to talk about the beat up director that didnt achieve what he set out to do and dealings with the big bad studio but I doubt it's as black and white. dude's just tired and the whole scope of this thing is just understandably alien to him

Really? I'm not into comic books movies, but the article made whedon look to me like a whiny bitch compared to Nolan, who appears to be a professional who got his studio relations on lock.

 

[ezekial45]

It's not like Steve and Tony butting heads is something unique to Civil War. It was always a direction the MCU could go in, Whedon didn't necessarily take it into consideration when making his film, but he is writing the characters in a faithful manner that will take them to the logical next step.

Oh yeah, I agree. I'm not saying there should've been a massive rift between them, as the upcoming movie can easily create that on its own, but I am saying that there does seem to be a clear lack of communication, especially when Marvel Studios is trying to schedule itself out for the next four years.

 

[Mike Works]

like everyone who gets big there'll be cynical people everyhwere

you see the hate Nolan gets? he's a joke to a lot of people now too, and the dark knight trilogy is one of the most "hated upon looking back" movies that everyone loved when they came out that I can think of.

Think harder.

 

[Salsa]

Really? I'm not into comic books movies, but the article made whedon look to me like a whiny bitch compared to Nolan, who appears to be a professional who got his studio relations on lock.

Eh. Doesnt come off that way to me. Maybe getting your shit cancelled over and over makes you understandably "whine" more, but he should know he's a big part on why the first movie is as succesful as it was and act accordingly. Just seems to me that the scope of it all ended up being too much and he decided to part rather than deal.

it's not surprising that the film school director guy is a bit more accostumed to studio treatment. Joss Whedon had never directed a movie besides Serenity

Think harder.

well, let's say out of newer films

 

[LumpOfCole]

If you go to a circus and see a ridiculously entertaining juggler able to juggle 10 things at once, you go "damn that's a good juggler."

But then the Circus starts making that juggler juggle 12, 13, 14 things at once and suddenly that juggler is making mistakes and dropping their props, then folks are going to say "eh that juggler could use some improvement." That's how I fear it must be like doing movies like the Avengers.

 

[RadioHammer500]

and this is what the criticism towards the MCU has been justified..i know alot of people are defensive of the MCU..but one of it's main criticisms is that it limits ultimate creativity so marvel could fit it in the universe

Edgar Wright and Joss Whedon are both victims of this to some degree

 

[Sec0nd]

Some great quotes by Whedon. He seems like a genuine good guy.

 

[OldRoutes]

and this is what the criticism towards the MCU has been justified..i know alot of people are defensive of the MCU..but one of it's main criticisms is that it limits ultimate creativity so marvel could fit it in the universe

Edgar Wright and Joss Whedon are both victims of this to some degree

To be fair, it's not like Hollywood is exactly known for "ultimate creativity" with budgets of over $200 million.

 

[LosDaddie]

So basically Marvel Studios is the death of Cinema

Basically. I don't know why any director would want to work in the MCU environment. There's obviously very little creative freedom allowed

 

[RadioHammer500]

To be fair, it's not like Hollywood is exactly known for "ultimate creativity" with budgets of over $200 million.

i agree..but i think someone like Nolan is going to naturally have more creativity because at the time WB wasn't really interested in making a continuous universe and he didn't have to strain himself to what a whole bunch of other films did.. or what films in the future were going to do

 

[Salsa]

and this is what the criticism towards the MCU has been justified..i know alot of people are defensive of the MCU..but one of it's main criticisms is that it limits ultimate creativity so marvel could fit it in the universe

Edgar Wright and Joss Whedon are both victims of this to some degree

I think the criticism to this idea everyone got in their heads is valid tho

we know shit. ultimately that's the truth, but everyone will stick to the story they wanna believe out of the percieved fandom they have for certain people's visions

it's like how everyone created this fairy tale about the Kojima / Konami stuff and how obviously Kojima did NOTHING wrong on any of those projects cause we all love him and omg

that's immediatly what happened with Edgar Wright. I love the dude's work and would have loved for him to be on Ant-Man believe me, but we know shit about what actually went down other than "there were differences"

studios are easy targets and the internet makes everything a black and white cookie cutter story.