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Sega Saturn turned 29 today

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Cool, maybe iPlaySega will make a video for next year's milestone then. To the haters, wow, I'd feel sad for what you've been missing out on if you weren't pieces of shit thinking aggressively reveling in your fanboy fueled ignorance makes you cool and edgy or whatever, now you're just funny.
 
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Krathoon

Member
Saturn didn't do 3D as well as the PlayStation, but it did have it's assortment of weird games.

I also like the 3DO even though is was in the same situation.

The CDi was pretty much crap, but we got those weird Zelda games.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Burning Rangers was fun, but typical Sonic Team jank. Lots of clipping etc. Very short game too, but replayable to get everything. I actually enjoyed it more than Nights.


Most of those games were launched when the Saturn was long gone what the actual f* are you saying?

Its not like Saturn, or DC for that matter, would ever get those type of games anyway. Its still a fact those experiences aren't really on Saturn, despite launching when Saturn was dead (which is factually wrong by the way; FFVII is from 1997, as is GT, RE2 from early 1998). The Saturn was still being offered back then, and still got its releases.



This is entirely wrong and the narrative that Saturn had nothing meaningful in the West is absolute BS.



Let me guess, that's a list of 1998 and later games. Obviously they weren't going to be there, focus had moved on the Dreamcast.

No, half of it is 1997.

A bit of Revisionist history maybe? A lot of games never came out in the west, not any RAM cart fighter for example, bar KOF 95 and perhaps MSH which was a trash port. It was rather annoying and many owners were complaining at the time. SSM actively persuaded the readers to import and covered many import games as well. Stolar was notorious for blocking RPG and 2D games, which actually gave the Saturn a strong foothold in Japan.

Playstation started to get the big games by 1997, but before that also had a year exclusivity on games like RE1. Saturn missed out on a lot. Much came down to its first parties, which were a mixed bag in delivering. HotD and Sega Touring Car were disappointing and they stayed in their bare bones arcade form while a Time Crisis for example added a wealth of extras and GT (which came out not long after STC), offered much more bang. The industry moved on. A bonafide Sonic game not coming out stung too.
 

cireza

Member
Time Crisis
Late 1997

1998

Your main arguments are about 2D fighting and shmups. Yes, a lot of them stayed in Japan. However, despite not having every single 2D fighter under the sun, we got a ton of them in the West and excellent ports as well. This genre was overly saturated back then. What's the point of even more of them exactly ? Dreamcast followed suit anyway and all of these games landed on the console. Didn't make much of a difference with its outcome.

Shmups were getting niche and we did not have a lot on Saturn in the West, but it is certainly not as if the PS1 was a power-house with shmups in the West either. I'd say that with Darius Gaiden, Parodius, Galactik Attack and both Panzer Dragoon games we were pretty well served.

You will eventually realize that no amount of 2D fighting games and shmups would have made any difference. Unless there is a parallel world where these two genres are the most played and most sold in current day. In which case I'd like to visit this place.
 
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Krathoon

Member
I actually like the USA, PlayStation version of Silhouette Mirage more than the Saturn original.

They added so much stuff to it.
 
Saturn didn't do 3D as well as the PlayStation, but it did have it's assortment of weird games.
Both consoles have different strengths and weaknesses. The Saturn has worse 3D when directly compared to the Playstation.

In 3D games that use VDP2 like Panzer Dragoon Zwei I believe no other 5th generation console could do better than Saturn.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
MSH which was a trash port.
Marvel Super Heroes is pretty good without the ram cart, it's true Capcom had some difficulty utilizing ram expansions properly early on causing issues in some games (but they eventually got it right). Other ports like Darkstalkers and Street Fighter Alpha were great (earlier games without a cart or later with). MSH is a pretty advanced 2D game though, characters on the arcade version have more animation than any other, in later games Capcom cut crouching and other animation frames from the arcade versions as well, not just the home ports, it was just too much with the tag on top. Saturn got plenty great 2D gems with or without the ram cart too, both by SNK and Capcom (and others), so even if they weren't quite arcade perfect they were the closest you could get from both major companies rather than having a Neo Geo and being restricted to expensive and SNK only games.

Saturn had less games than PS, that's a given, but still, attach rates back then were what, 10:1 at best or something along those lines, okay with the bonus of rentals in some territories, but either way Saturn had more great games than any kid could own at the time in all sorts of genres even without the Japanese library in mind so not having a ton more on top didn't really make that much difference in practice until the competition killed it off and it got few and eventually no more games whatsoever of course. We're showing it held its own while it lasted and deserved better/had more to offer.

It's completely pointless and agenda driven to compare arcade game ports like STCC to GT. You can just say Saturn (and every non PS system for generations while at it) lacked anything like GT and leave it at that, making a direct comparison to any specific arcade game, which still came before GT anyway, is just silly. STCC had decent replayability too, even if not to the level of Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast and its 10 year Championship, after finishing the Arcade and Saturn modes I enjoyed things like the Endurance races which made damage and pit stops matter and unlocking extras and stuff. It was also hard which made it last a bit longer. But sure, it wasn't the best port either and quite rightfully bashed, though I think it's a good game underneath (things like extreme polygon warping, usually not so prominent on Saturn, stuck out like a sore thumb, but that's the norm on PlayStation where people didn't care about it as much, or about low framerates and glitchy 3D of games like Syphon Filter, heh, those technical issues were only a huge problem when discussing Saturn games for the era's publications and now for you when talking about Burning Rangers or whatever else).

Great games are great games, real gamers recognize them whether they sell or flop or are trendy or not, if we always fall back on what is most popular then of course PlayStation was that and we can just not discuss the merits of anything else ever. Nobody said it topped PlayStation, just celebrated Saturn for what it is. Great exclusives and fine multiplatform games while it still got those if the publisher/developer actually made an effort, no different to later generations' multiplatform games & far from shit vs gold or anything. Plenty great PS games weren't as popular as GT either but for gamers they still count as part of its great library, as do earlier arcade ports. Well, quite a few enjoyed totally unrealistic arcade racers like Wipeout even after GT came along anyway and still do. I enjoyed 2097 on Saturn and 3 on PlayStation after I got it after Saturn died too (never enjoyed GT).


As seen above (loads more examples where these came from), Saturn held its own while it lasted, some ports were lesser, a few better, all around it was on par like any future gen's rivals, again, hardly shit vs gold. Even if ports often were inferior (but not so bad like botched examples people go to as if that's the best Saturn could ever do and often games you don't care to play even in their best version, lol) it had the 2D game advantage (which yes, wasn't all the rage back then as Sony pushed 3D hard and publications followed suit) and its own brilliantly shining exclusive gems. Its bad rep due to a couple games like Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA shouldn't have followed it through all its life when SEGA was quick to prove it can do a lot more (and much like VF3tb on Dreamcast VF wasn't even such a bad port, the original game itself was an outdated by then crude pioneer).​
 
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StereoVsn

Member
If you guys were going to buy a Saturn today would you buy a US or JPN Saturn?
Doesn’t really matter since you should mod it in any case. Japanese Saturns “usually” are in better shape if you get it from Japan vs US but that’s purely anecdotal evidence on my part.
 

Krathoon

Member
Saturns hold up really well. The one I have still works.

I think it is because it uses a spindle for the cd, not a loading tray. It is a flip top loader.

That was why they started making PS3's that way. Trays wear out.
 

cireza

Member
If you guys were going to buy a Saturn today would you buy a US or JPN Saturn?
A US/PAL Saturn obviously, so I can buy games in a language I can read. There's plenty to pick from in the US and PAL libraries. Japanese games are a nice addition, but definitely optional.

No need to mod a Saturn with a properly working CD unit by the way. Modding with an ODE should be only done when there is something that is not working anymore, and Saturn are quite reliable consoles, optical drive included. Don't go destroying consoles that work. If it doesn't read discs anymore, then of course, mod it.

Otherwise a Pseudo Saturn Kai is all you need to open up the console. Put it in the cartridge slot, it does only everything.
 
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Mr Hyde

Member
An amazing console. Segas finest out of them all with a cool library of games. I remember experiencing Panzer Dragoon for the first time, the opening level with the orchestrated soundtrack blasting through the TV. A magical moment. Then we had Guardian Heroes which I spent so much time playing co-op with my sister's then boyfriend. Had so much fun. Treasures best game to date. And the list goes on. Burning Rangers. Dark Savior. Story of Thor. Nights. VF2. Ultimate MK3. Sega Rally. Tomb Raider. The last Bronx. Albert Odyssey. Even Clockwork Knight and Bug were bangers, lol. Even though Playstation won me over in the end, Sega and the Saturn will always have a special place in my heart.
 

Isa

Member
Awesome system and a bit weird too. Quite the unique time period for home consoles which was nice, with each system being kind of different.

Saw this the other day, thought it was pretty cool and looks like a lot of fun. Cool effects. I wish emulation was easier for me though.
 

Sephimoth

Member
I know it had its flaws compared to the competition, but I was a huge fan as a kid.

I got the console with Sega Rally, VF2, and Panzer Dragoon Zwei, which were all amazing. Soon after I found Tomb Raider, and it became an obsession.

Would get the Saturn mags every month, play the demo discs over and over. Was horrified when I read in one that Tomb Raider 2 had been cancelled.

I also recall getting excited that Quake was being ported, thinking it as a "this is it!" moment to turn the tide :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Shame the Saturn got shafted, but I moved onto PSX and N64 and found new games which are amongst my favorites to this day (FF7, MGS).

Still love the Saturn and have recollected all my old games (except Panzer Dragoon Saga) and more over the years. Give me a Saturn mini, Sega!
 
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Krathoon

Member
Saturn and 3DO are both consoles that really deserve to be preserved with emulation.

The hardware and original discs are getting expensive.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
* cough Hackvideo *
What's wrong with the video, and to be fair everything that is mentioned is fair amount of common knowledge, so no made up news in it...after watching it, the conclusion you come to is that Sega brought it on themselves the absolute failure (bar Japan) of the Saturn...there is no-one else to blame for it...
 
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Burning Rangers was fun, but typical Sonic Team jank. Lots of clipping etc. Very short game too, but replayable to get everything. I actually enjoyed it more than Nights.
Burning Rangers was great, WAY better than NiGHTS.

I loved the emails you got after rescuing people.
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
I always find it funny how Burning Rangers is kind of jankey. I assume the emulator is not doing it.
Saturn 3D pad was more or less required for it. I'm sure a bit of jank is there but the 3D pad is hard to replicate outside of the OG controller and Burning Rangers was a game designed for it, as was Nights.
 
What's wrong with the video, and to be fair everything that is mentioned is fair amount of common knowledge, so no made up news in it...after watching it, the conclusion you come to is that Sega brought it on themselves the absolute failure (bar Japan) of the Saturn...there is no-one else to blame for it...

The Saturn wasn't as slapdash as has been detailed. I mean, they didn't crap their pants when they saw the PS1, that was simply exaggerated; they'd always planned on a multi-core architecture, something that was retrospectively botched).

Also, they had 2d and 2d meets 3d games that would have been borked elsewhere. Plus, said games have aged better than PS1's games, which aged like milk due to jaggies.
 
Thankfully you didn't get run over by a car (or a horse) when crossing the street, so we can read your exciting testimony of how Saturn was trash 29 years later.

Yeah. Some of these testimonials are like reading NewsRadio was deservedly canceled in the face of classics (!) like Friends. Some bizarro hipster normie shit right tere.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Sega really needed a better sdk for devs.
It's something that Sony smartly provided in the early days of PS1.

I think Sega was still operating in a bubble like Nintendo was. They were pretty much the only big players and 90% of software was developed in Japan.

Sony had a much wider vision when they stepped in, they invited developers, sent devkits, english documentation etc. They did their homework with PS1. Sega and Nintendo were way different, leaning on their 1980's strategies. Its not only Sega fucking up. Look at what Nintendo lost in terms of support when they went with the N64, they lost pretty much every single third party out there. Not just Square.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Idk if Saturn dev was that alien when outside SEGA some of its best gfx come from small studios (Lobotomy, Treasure) and far from AAA (+ all the PS ports), it wasn't about budgets and additional work, just what the given studio was capable of pulling off and their expertise, pub priorities etc.

Same goes for PlayStation at times, sure Metal Gear Solid is a thing but you also have From Software evolving from the humble King's Field to the amazing looking Echo Night, the first of which is already impressive but clearly has less than artistic character textures, which the sequel so fixed up.

Some really early Saturn software also showed really promising results and techniques that for some reason were never followed up on to more refined and more developed engines (even when the game in question actually had sequels on this platform too, though they often didn't, of course).

A little higher resolution, a better 2D in-car view (if at all, not a must, could just have bumper cam and hey, feel free to ditch the mirror rendering to boost the main visuals) and some more solid car models and NFS could stand with the best with that draw distance and performance. Touge with +5 fps and refined gameplay could rock with its art style, draw distance and excellent VDP2 backgrounds (but the sequel went a whole different direction, didn't exactly play great and its realistic style presented more flaws). Surely no studio maxed out Saturn with their first attempt and could do more.​
 
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Some really early Saturn software also showed really promising results and techniques that for some reason were never followed up on to more refined and more developed engines (even when the game in question actually had sequels on this platform too, though they often didn't, of course). NFS could stand among late software with that draw distance and smooth performance. Touge with enhanced performance and gameplay could rock with that art style, draw distance and excellent use of VDP2 backgrounds (but the sequel went a whole different direction and didn't exactly play great, plus the realistic art style presented more issues than this take). Surely neither studio maxed out Saturn with their first attempt and could do more.​

The concept of max out and the concept of early game need to be reformulated, sega saturn is a 1994 console but for rhetorical purposes let's say it is a 1995 console, so what does that mean? It means that launch games like Virtua Fighter 2 max out the Saturn, in my eyes Fighting Vipers is above it but for internal processing VF2 is superior. So what really matters? Games need to be pleasant to the eyes. Super Mario 64, Star Wars Rogue Squadron 2 on GameCube etc. Games that somehow make deep use of their hardware.

What I understand, the negative, was that Sega tried to find out what the paths of that generation would be (sales are the ones who determine the paths) Sega released many games 2D based on sprites, in 2D based on polygons, in 2.5D, 3D games with restrictive movement . While Sony went directly to 3D.This happens all the time, Microsoft packed Xbox One with Knect. When they realized that the strategy failed, they removed the knect as damage control.

As powerful as the Saturn was for 3D games, certainly (at some point) Sega wanted the trend to be games like Clockwork Knight, guardian heroes and Nights (believe me, they wanted these games to be commercially successful) supported by arcade ports and RPGs. This did not happen, trend in that gen was 3D games such as SM64, Mega Man Legend, Tomb Raider 2, Tenchu, Spyro, Banjo, Zelda, Spider-Man and Soul Reaver. Playstation managed to be successful with 3D games restrictive movements, MGS, Dino Crisis, YuGiOh due to the popularity inherited from RE1 and FF7. Saturn had difficulty competing in free-roaming 3D games because Sega wasted time trying to force 2.5D, in addition to problems related to programming, when they finally released Burning Rangers Saturn was dead and the Dreamcast would be the Sega console to provide free roaming 3D games.
 
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RAIDEN1

Member
The Saturn wasn't as slapdash as has been detailed. I mean, they didn't crap their pants when they saw the PS1, that was simply exaggerated; they'd always planned on a multi-core architecture, something that was retrospectively botched).

Also, they had 2d and 2d meets 3d games that would have been borked elsewhere. Plus, said games have aged better than PS1's games, which aged like milk due to jaggies.
Yeah but they were looking at the market in 1992 lenses, thinking that 3d wouldn't make the transition so soon, as it did, so banked on making it a Genesis 2.0 instead of a state-of-the-art console that was ready to take on the next dimension so to speak...they had to put more nuts and bolts onto the console (well some extra grunt I mean..) so as to stay competitive with the competition, even if you took the PSX out of the equation, and had it not been for Nintendo dragging their feet in adopting the compact disc format, and the N64 was CD based, it would have been a more stronger competitor than the Saturn ever could have been....
 

cireza

Member
Nights is fully 3D though.

trend in that gen was 3D games such as SM64, Mega Man Legend, Tomb Raider 2, Tenchu, Spyro, Banjo, Zelda, Spider-Man and Soul Reaver
This is what the trend BECAME. But at the beginning the trend wasn't to make free roaming 3D games. The games listed here are all pretty late games. The trend really started with Mario 64 and Tomb Raider I would say, and TR was on Saturn day one.

The console was not well suited for games with 100% 3D environments anyway. But it was still capable enough during the time it was alive, as demonstrated by a number of full 3D games. Its death was simply precipitated by SEGA and really this is where they failed, because the console was actually improving a lot near the end of its life (as seen in games that were not rushed of course), be it 3D in games, quality of encoding for videos, dev tools etc...
 
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cireza

Member
Genesis 2.0 instead of a state-of-the-art console that was ready to take on the next dimension so to speak
This is so easy to say in hindsight. Back then there was no manual on how and what to embed to make 3D in a console. They were actually pioneering this in home consoles at low price, just as Sony and Nintendo, which both took the decision to ditch 2D entirely to keep simple architecture. Well N64 wasn't even simple in the end lol.
 
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fart town usa

Gold Member
If you guys were going to buy a Saturn today would you buy a US or JPN Saturn?
Japan. Sold more and taken much better care of. Looks cooler too. Pro-Action Replay cart will make it region free, but if you're serious about getting a Saturn you should absolutely plan on getting a Fenrir or Satiator. It's not worth it to deal w/ used prices. One solid game will cost as much as a Satiator ($300).
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
Taking advantage of time off work to try and plow through Shining the Holy Ark. Capturing a playthrough for archival purposes.

It's just as good as SF3, PDS, Grandia when it comes to "best RPG for the Saturn"

Got it cued up to some cool battle footage. The art style is unique. Total Camelot stuff but really unique within their catalog.

 
This is so easy to say in hindsight. Back then there was no manual on how and what to embed to make 3D in a console. They were actually pioneering this in home consoles at low price, just as Sony and Nintendo, which both took the decision to ditch 2D entirely to keep simple architecture. Well N64 wasn't even simple in the end lol.

Psygnosis and their dev tool cache were a massive unexpected windfall for Sony. Would the PSX have been as impressive early on otherwise? Don't know, but the console really hit the ground running with what Psy brought to the table.
 
This is what the trend BECAME. But at the beginning the trend wasn't to make free roaming 3D games. The games listed here are all pretty late games. The trend really started with Mario 64 and Tomb Raider I would say, and TR was on Saturn day one.
you're right, historically Tomb Raider, SM64 are the first of this type of game, before that the competition was restricted to racing games and fighting games basically. But that didn't stop Nintendo from being very successful with Yoshi's Story, a game that kept the proportions it was nothing far from what Sega was offering since 1995 and 1996, not even Crash Bandicoot was that far away but looking at it in perspective some Sega games at that time seemed too ''alternative''.

Establishing new franchises is not easy, Playstation managed due to the high number of consoles in the hands of consumers. Nintendo was conservative, even if they made a Mario 64 similar to Klonoa they would still be praised. In this process, Sega made amateur mistakes - Saturn's fate was sealed - competing in a generation without having renowned games with recognized sales flows (Sony did this with Final Fantasy, Sega itself did it on the Sega Genesis) or famous licensed characters (Mickey and Michael Jackson for example). mistakes that caused the Saturn to be underused, after all, who will invest in a flopped console? Many games in 97, 98 until the complete discontinuation of the product present technical setbacks compared to the great Sega Saturn games, from 95 and 96.

The console was not well suited for games with 100% 3D environments anyway. But it was still capable enough during the time it was alive, as demonstrated by a number of full 3D games.
At that time no console was capable and at the same time they all were, devs just needed to know how do it. In SM64, only Mario and the floor are polygonal, enemies, trees and other elements are 2D sprites. Sonic on the Saturn could make the floor in its games using VDP2 and the chars in VDP1 , Sonic Jam shows it but Sega made an internal decision to transfer this type of game to the Dreamcast.

Panzer Dragoon Saga - 074, Village of Zoah on Make a GIF
Is there a market for a traditional Tomb Raider game? | Page 2 | NeoGAF
Sonic The Hedgeblog — Passing By 'Sonic Jam' SEGA Saturn
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I like how Fighting Force used VDP2, an engine of this quality could have brought some sweet Saturn games, if only Core didn't ditch the platform altogether after bringing some awesome stuff to it early on. It beats Die Hard Arcade visually imo. The rolling demo blew me away back then with the rotating camera in massive environments, the traffic, car coming in with headlights on and mooks getting off. Something about the way they made that particular character model made it look really smooth too. I'm sure it isn't (close ups reveal a flat head and stuff) but it just worked well somehow.
 
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Alan Wake

Member
Oh, it's been a while since I played on my Saturn. But I bought Deep Fear and Sonic Jam last year so I'm ready to hook it up to my OSSC and try it out.
 
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SpiceRacz

Member
Has anyone used the Retro Bit Saturn controllers? Was thinking of ordering one, but wanted to get some feedback first.
 

Krathoon

Member
Has anyone used the Retro Bit Saturn controllers? Was thinking of ordering one, but wanted to get some feedback first.
I got a wired one from them that is pretty much identical to the original except that it is USB. Works great.
I am not certain if Retroarch auto-maps it right or not. I will have to try it out.
 
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