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Series Representation in Super Smash Bros Wii-U/3DS

DK, Metroid, Star Fox, and F-Zero really need more representation (and the latter 3 really need more attention from Nintendo, too :v)

Wario Ware is also underused. The games have a bunch of potential stages and characters.

And I know lots of people hate the Fire Emblem representation, but really all they got is 4 characters, and Lucina likely won't appear in Smash as a playable character again. Let us FE fans have this moment tbh
 
Another thing that has been brought up by others:

I really hope Inkling is a DLC character so Nintendo can leverage the potential of Smash to get new Nintendo content/characters into the minds of the fanbase so it can become as popular as the classics, instead of being dropped in favor of more Mario/Zelda titles.
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
Another thing that has been brought up by others:

I really hope Inkling is a DLC character so Nintendo can leverage the potential of Smash to get new Nintendo content/characters into the minds of the fanbase so it can become as popular as the classics, instead of being dropped in favor of more Mario/Zelda titles.
I honestly don't think we'll see anything Splatoon until Smash 5. Hell, the only reason Rhythm Heaven has a shot at DLC at all is because the character (again, likely the Chorus Kids) & stage were already being worked on & the music was likely already licensed. Splatoon is a new IP they could probably save for Smash 5, not unlike the representation of the Galaxy games back in Brawl & how it was saved for now.
 

Mr. RPG

Member
I think this is why Sakurai wants to stop working on Smash.

Most of the fans are completely unrealistic and expect way too much.
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
I think this is why Sakurai wants to stop working on Smash.

Most of the fans are completely unrealistic and expect way too much.
This. He said numerous times that he just could get Ridley to work in a way that makes sense yet millions bash him for not adding Ridley anyway.
 

Draxal

Member
Dénouement;154185920 said:
DK, Metroid, Star Fox, and F-Zero really need more representation (and the latter 3 really need more attention from Nintendo, too :v)

Wario Ware is also underused. The games have a bunch of potential stages and characters.

And I know lots of people hate the Fire Emblem representation, but really all they got is 4 characters, and Lucina likely won't appear in Smash as a playable character again. Let us FE fans have this moment tbh

Lucina will just be an alt of Marth in the future. Robin's the one most likely to be cut (but he'll/she'll be replaced by the new Avatar unit in the most current fire emblem if they're going to continue down that route).
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
Lucina will just be an alt of Marth in the future. Robin's the one most likely to be cut (but he'll/she'll be replaced by the new Avatar unit in the most current fire emblem if they're going to continue down that route).
I wouldn't jump the gun just yet. The same thought process was done about Ike in this game, & we know how that turned out.
 
Lucina will just be an alt of Marth in the future. Robin's the one most likely to be cut (but he'll/she'll be replaced by the new Avatar unit in the most current fire emblem if they're going to continue down that route).
Lucina is popular enough to stick around and be slightly decloned, and Robin isn't going anywhere. They don't really just replace characters willy nilly in Smash. It's only truly happened once, and that was because it made more sense and was a better character, not because he was the newest shiny (although he was at the time).
 

Neoxon

Junior Member
Lucina is popular enough to stick around and be slightly decloned, and Robin isn't going anywhere. They don't really just replace characters willy nilly in Smash. It's only truly happened once, and that was because it made more sense and was a better character, not because he was the newest shiny (although he was at the time).
Who, Toon Link? Because Lucario was never meant to replace Mewtwo (in fact, Sonic was the reason Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl).
 

Draxal

Member
I wouldn't jump the gun just yet. The sam thought process was done about Ike in this game, & we know how that turned out.

Ike's kinda of a special case as he was in two Fire Emblems.

I do concede that I did think Chrom was going to replace him though. (Although, I was pretty sure Robin was going to be added as a mage character adds a lot to gameplay).

Who, Toon Link? Because Lucario was never meant to replace Mewtwo (in fact, Sonic was the reason Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl).

Ike replaced Roy as he was the newest shiny at the time.
 

Javier

Member
You know, say what you want about certain series being underrepresented.

It doesn't top "Five games and still no Bowser's Castle stage".
 
I know some people say that Bandana Dee should be added, but I find that Kirby's character representation is pretty much perfect with Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede. I mean, those three are the DEFINITIVE Kirby characters.

Zelda, I think, should add Trident Ganon as a character. And then, technically, you'd have 2 Links, 2 Zeldas, and 2 Ganons as playable characters.

Donkey Kong, pretty much everyone agrees a character should be added, but that's split between K. Rool or Dixie. Well, at least ONE of them should be added.

WarioWare has a lot of interesting characters. It's a shame we haven't had another one added, and that's probably at the top of my list for the next Smash.

Finally, Mario has a lot of characters. Once (or if) Captain Toad is added, I'd think that'd be pretty much it in terms of representation.
 
You know, say what you want about certain series being underrepresented.

It doesn't top "Five games and still no Bowser's Castle stage".

They could've killed two birds with one stone making the Mario Kart track Bowser's Castle.
But hey there's like 20 seconds of paper Bowser's Castle with horrific platform layout in the 3DS game right? that's up there with 75M in "this isn't really what we meant by a non jungle stage"
 

JediLink

Member
How is metroid underrepresented? its a series abut isolation
Nottodisushittoagen.jpg

It's a series about a lone bounty hunter braving hostile environments filled with enemies. Even if Ridley can't work (which I still call bullshit on), Dark Samus, dammit.
 

Mr. RPG

Member
Who, Toon Link? Because Lucario was never meant to replace Mewtwo (in fact, Sonic was the reason Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl).

Source on that? I've never heard of that before.

I don't mean to be rude, but you just said "Smash shouldn't have any clones" (unless I misread your post)

So

Um

I'm saying you guys want way too much. I understand we all want our favorite characters in Smash, but you have to consider that the developers can only do so much. I really want Pichu back... and as for a newcomer I really want Skull Kid. It's unreasonable and unrealistic for them to add in every character that you want.

Don't you think we have enough as it is? This game will have 52 characters once Mewtwo is out.
 
Concerning series already in Smash, the only things that really irk me are:

- Lucas getting cut & Magicant being 3DS exclusive
- F-Zero and Sonic getting snubbed as far as new arrangements as concerned. New music for the latter probably has to go through Sega, but there's absolutely no excuse for F-Zero.

Aside from that, my only other beef with the game is Golden Sun getting more or less ignored. I can deal with no playable character, but no new music arrangements? Removing Issac as an assist completely? Not even a trophy? (Especially baffling in the 3DS version, where handheld series were given a bigger focus in regards to trophies. You mean to tell me the fucking Find Mii Ghosts and Steel Diver get trophies, but Golden Sun doesn't even get one? That's bullshit.)

Source on that? I've never heard of that before.

I don't think it's ever been officially stated, but considering that 1) Mewtwo has the most leftover data on the Brawl Disc of the cut characters 2) Brawl's roster was decided early on in development and 3) Sonic was a last minute roster addition, it isn't a stretch to imagine that whatever resources that could've went towards finishing Mewtwo went to Sonic instead.
 
Source on that? I've never heard of that before.



I'm saying you guys want way too much. I understand we all want our favorite characters in Smash, but you have to consider that the developers can only do so much. I really want Pichu back... and as for a newcomer I really want Skull Kid. It's unreasonable and unrealistic for them to add in every character that you want.

Don't you think we have enough as it is? This game will have 52 characters once Mewtwo is out.

Well yes, if you combine the wants of everyone it becomes excessive, but most people when they say what they want have something of a good justification for it. So if they said "put these 16 characters in Smash", it's going to be a combination of the poster's desire and the logic behind the choices.
 
I remember when one of the knocks against Dark Samus was simply the fact that she's Dark Samus and therefore another version of Samus, then suddenly Dark Pit.
Funnily enough Dark Samus as simply an AT shows more diversity in moves from Samus than Pitoo does to Pit, yeah I know he's just an ascended costume swap but I still find that kind of amusing.

Seeing what Seven Force just mentioned I've always been puzzled by Golden Sun's Issac being dropped as an AT, it does make me wonder if that was done under the idea of him being a future DLC candidate but that may be wishful thinking on my part.
 
Don't you think we have enough as it is? This game will have 52 characters once Mewtwo is out.

Marvel vs Capcom 2 has 56, and Mortal Kombat Armageddon has 62.

Given Sakurais comments about the series, the balance aspect probably isn't a big concern when it comes to adding lots of content to the games.
 
I remember when one of the knocks against Dark Samus was simply the fact that she's Dark Samus and therefore another version of Samus, then suddenly Dark Pit.
Funnily enough Dark Samus as simply an AT shows more diversity in moves from Samus than Pitoo does to Pit, yeah I know he's just an ascended costume swap but I still find that kind of amusing.

Seeing what Seven Force just mentioned I've always been puzzled by Golden Sun's Issac being dropped as an AT, it does make me wonder if that was done under the idea of him being a future DLC candidate but that may be wishful thinking on my part.

I think it's indicative of something at least. The fact that Isaac is one of the very few AT characters that didn't come back from Brawl seems odd, considering he was one of the very few AT characters to become more relevant following Brawl.
 
Who, Toon Link? Because Lucario was never meant to replace Mewtwo (in fact, Sonic was the reason Mewtwo wasn't in Brawl).
Yea, Toon Link. I thought I mentioned him in the post by name, but I guess I didn't.

Ike didn't replace Roy, it was pretty evident that he didn't since Roy was not only in the code, but if I recall, was also given his own victory theme.

Yep, he's somewhat similar to Roy, but Roy was intended to be in anyway, so he wasn't replaced.

Had they made it in, we probably would have had 2 entire character replacements with Pichu -> Plusle/Minun. Much like Young Link, there's no Pichu information in Brawl at all.
 

Mr. RPG

Member
I don't think it's ever been officially stated, but considering that 1) Mewtwo has the most leftover data on the Brawl Disc of the cut characters 2) Brawl's roster was decided early on in development and 3) Sonic was a last minute roster addition, it isn't a stretch to imagine that whatever resources that could've went towards finishing Mewtwo went to Sonic instead.

That still seems far fetched to me. I feel like it is more likely that Mewtwo was replaced by Lucario. Many developers leave in dummied content so it isn't strange that data of Mewtwo was left in the game.

Marvel vs Capcom 2 has 56, and Mortal Kombat Armageddon has 62.

Given Sakurais comments about the series, the balance aspect probably isn't a big concern when it comes to adding lots of content to the games.

Admittedly, the only fighting game franchises I care about are Soul Calibur and Smash so I don't know anything about the other fighting franchises.

How balanced are these games compared to Smash in your opinion?
 
Lucario was almost definitely developed alongside Mewtwo. Mewtwo appears to have had among the most work done on her, and thus the most time spent on her of the cut characters. There's no way that Ike and Lucario were meant to replace Roy and Mewtwo.
 
That still seems far fetched to me. I feel like it is more likely that Mewtwo was replaced by Lucario. Many developers leave in dummied content so it isn't strange that data of Mewtwo was left in the game.

Lucario was planned to be in Brawl from early on. Lucario and Mewtwo are also entirely unrelated other than sharing a somewhat similar neutral b.

Lucario was almost definitely developed alongside Mewtwo. Mewtwo appears to have had among the most work done on her, and thus the most time spent on her of the cut characters. There's no way that Ike and Lucario were meant to replace Roy and Mewtwo.

Mewtwo in Smash is distinctly male or at least gender neutral.
 
I don't think it's ever been officially stated, but considering that 1) Mewtwo has the most leftover data on the Brawl Disc of the cut characters 2) Brawl's roster was decided early on in development and 3) Sonic was a last minute roster addition, it isn't a stretch to imagine that whatever resources that could've went towards finishing Mewtwo went to Sonic instead.

Wasn't Jigglypuff indicated to be a late addition in Brawl as well? If they were worried about over representing Pokemon at the time, it was likely between Jigglypuff and Mewtwo and Jigglypuff was chosen because of seniority and that the moveset was easier to implement.
 
Admittedly, the only fighting game franchises I care about are Soul Calibur and Smash so I don't know anything about the other fighting franchises.

How balanced are these games compared to Smash in your opinion?

Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Mortal Kombat Armageddon on are terrible(ly balanced) games.

Smash is more balanced, but possibly by accident considering Sakurai's attitude towards serious Smash play.
 
In my opinion, the only games with lacking representation are Donkey Kong and Wario, and it's not because of the numbers game a lot of people are playing. It's because neither of those characters feel like they represent their respective franchises to me.

Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong have realistic monkey noises for...some reason? And every stage they've ever had is just some generic jungle (especially in Brawl, because Rumble Falls is embarrassingly bad). They don't feel like platforming characters and they can't even do some of their classic moves. I can't believe that Donkey Kong is only just now getting his roll attack, but hey, it's something.

Wario is similar. Wario has a really strong history with a ton to pull from: Wario Land, Warioware, all of the spin-off games, and also just the fact that he's evil Mario could provide a lot of potential for mirroring his moveset off of Mario in a fun and interesting way. Instead, he doesn't really feel like he represents any of those things super well. I will say, Wario's stages have been awesome if you're a fan of Warioware, and his moveset definitely has a decent sense of his personality with the bike/bite/fart mechanic. This isn't as egregious of an error as Donkey Kong is, but I still feel like there's a lot that could be done here.

I would put Metroid in third, because Samus doesn't really feel "right" to me, but I don't think it's as bad as many make it seem.

Besides that I think Smash 4 did a really good job with representation and I think a lot of people are way too critical. It's about more than numbers, it's about the attention to detail. Yoshi feels awesome in this game. Luigi finally feels like Luigi and not Green Mario. Bowser was redone in a really cool way. We got a number of new franchises represented in characters and all of them are extremely well done. I'm happy with what we got.

I'm certainly sad that Ice Climbers and Snake were cut, meaning we lost two entire franchises, but for everything that remained, this is a lot of solid representation. I think a lot of people have to understand the process of game development and Sakurai's design philosophies before you throw out so many suggestions that don't make a whole lot of sense.

First and foremost, Sakurai wants playable characters included. Next comes the "big bads," and these are typically people that are enemies through out the franchise; one-offs are lame. Third-parties get only the face of their franchise and an assist trophy. There are a few exceptions to this rule, like Pokemon and Fire Emblem since they have entirely new casts in each game, but I really like the balance Sakurai has with adding one or two new reps from each into every new Smash game. Overall I think it's a logical and respectable system for choosing representation.

Outside of that, most character suggestions just don't make sense to me. Mario's reps are all of the playable characters and major bosses through-out the series, bar Toad. These are faces that any fans will recognize. Zelda's reps are all based around the Triforce and I don't see any other new characters as likely. Metroid only has Samus as a playable character, so they focused on her. For bad guys, Ridley's really the only option as far as consistency goes (maybe Dark Samus for Metroid Prime), but if Sakurai doesn't think he works very well than I'd trust him long before any forum dwellers.

DK definitely has a lot of room to grow, both for playable characters and villains. Sadly, they all come from the Rare era, which may be why Sakurai's not so quick to include more. Wario doesn't really have any stand-outs (a lot of people seem to love Ashely, but in game she's just like everyone else). Punch-Out includes the only playable characters (with Doc commentary!) and has no major villain they could use to represent the other side(again, people seem to like King Hippo, but there's nothing in game that marks him as special). Same with F-Zero. Yoshi could include Kamek, but everyone else is totally fine to me.

In terms of representation, I think they have a bit to fix for Wario, Metroid, and DK first and foremost. They also need to bring Wolf and Lucas back. I wouldn't mind costumes for Young Link, Roy, Pichu, and the rest of the Pikmin captains and, while I understand why they were cut, I would like to see Ice Climbers and Snake back.

I also think they could handle adding some more diverse stage representation to the Mario franchise (maybe Captain toad or Mario & Luigi; please no more 1-1 rip-offs) and Pig Ganon to Zelda (to have 2 reps for each Triforce segment). Hell, even Bandana Dee has been playable lately, so throw him in; he makes more sense that Tingle to me. But outside of that, I think most of the franchises currently in the game have just the right characters playable and stages selected.

But overall, going forward, what I want more than anything is more one-offs. Not every franchise needs thorough representation, that just feels forced and, I think, brings down the integrity of the series (especially with all of the ridiculous third party recommendations). I'd like to see a Golden Sun rep, Advanced Wars, Codename STEAM, Splatoon, Panel de pon, Rhythm Heaven, etc. WAY before some lame characters who only appeal to big fans of one franchise. Also, more than anything, I'd like to see gameplay decisions trump any representation decisions. Nintendo characters are great inspiration for fighting designs, but focusing too much on the representation aspect is what made Brawl feel so weak next to Melee for most people.

But tl;dr: I'm pretty happy with series representation in Smash 4. Sorry I wrote so much I didn't realize how badly I was avoiding doing my homework until now.
 
Smash has a 12-strong balancing team though.

Well I don't know enough about the development process for these games to definitively say whether or not Sakurai could just demand the game have 65 characters or whatever so they could advertise the fact, or because he had 13 new moveset ideas or whatever reason.
 
The only series representation I'm disappointed with is the music representation for DK/Metroid/Star Fox/Wario/F-Zero and the 3DS stages for the first four (granted, I love Brawl's WarioWare stage but I'd have loved to see another WarioWare game get represented). There's also the lack of arrangements for Sonic but I'm pretty sure that's on Sega's end.

For those complaining about the lack of Wars content, I feel ya, but bear in mind this is the 4th installment and we've only just gotten to Punch-Out, Paper Mario, and PilotWings. Smash can only have so much new representation for every instalment, but I'm certain Wars and Rhythm Heaven will get their time to shine next time.

Impa is the most boring Zelda character they could possibly pick.

The only game where Impa has mattered even slightly is skyward sword. Please try again, guys.

Thank you.

Lucario was almost definitely developed alongside Mewtwo. Mewtwo appears to have had among the most work done on her, and thus the most time spent on her of the cut characters. There's no way that Ike and Lucario were meant to replace Roy and Mewtwo.

er
 

Riposte

Member
No Axe or Spear wielder for Fire Emblem is sad. Three blue-haired sword wielders is sadder (though Marth and Ike are both justified).
 
Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong have realistic monkey noises for...some reason? And every stage they've ever had is just some generic jungle (especially in Brawl, because Rumble Falls is embarrassingly bad).

Say what you want about the stage, but I'd consider Rumble Falls to not really be a "generic" jungle stage since it has a giant beanstalk on top of a waterfall and an airplane flying around.

Personally I love Jungle Hijinx so IMO DK desperately needs another character and more varied music selection.
 

Stencil

Member
Good post, OP! Interesting to look at the numbers.

Kind of surprised Tails didn't make an appearance this time around, but then again, I didn't even think about it until just now reading your post, so... Maybe not that surprised.
 
I just want to see Metroid be well-represented. The closest it got was with Brawl, and even then it had literally-just-here-for-fanservice ZSS, who is a mess of a character who does a disservice to Metroid as a whole. Smash 4 Metroid was completely messed up because it was 90% Other M, but at least it had a solid selection of Assist Trophies.

In general Smash 4 did a bad job of giving stages to franchises as well. It was easily the place where the whole 3DS/Wii U thing hurt the most - it felt like the stages of one game split into two games, which sucked.

Also, what was with Sonic not getting any new remixes? It was bad enough in Brawl where it got one, but at least that was excusable since Sonic was added late in development. But here it gets nothing new. Does Sega just have a complete inability to secure their own music right or...?
 
I'd pretty comfortably agree DK has the worst representation in regards to the size and status of his franchise. Like the suspicious lack of Rhythm Heaven stuff I still feel there was *something* more planned at some point, but it still sucks it's left with zero assist trophies (Cranky would've been brilliant as a Resetti style bitcher), Dixie as a newcomer or quickly getting David Wise over again to remix a ton of stuff. Metroid similarly felt way too reliant on a particular game the fanbase is 'mixed' about at best and little else. Part of me feels Wario isn't that screwed over outside of music and needing a proper shoulder-barge. Dude hasn't had a major platformer in over 6 years and Game & Wario was a pretty big bomb, and still got one of the cooler new stages in SSB4 along with two AT's. They just need to balance out the Land/World representation with Ware.

Fire Emblem is more or less perfect (at least from my perspective as a big fan of FE:A), though Lucina would've been fine staying as a Marth alt and a new FE assist would've been nice. Kid Icarus is the only franchise in SSB4 I raise an eyebrow at just how much new content it got, and I say this as a big Uprising fan. If other franchises were going to get skimped out on new shit, it's going to annoy fans of those bigger series like DK/Zelda/Metroid that a comparitively tiny series got so much attention. It's the first time I'll concede Sakurai played favorites, and Palutena was one of my Top 3 most wanted newcomers.

The only game Sheik has been in at all is Ocarina of Time. Try again guys?
Sheik is
Zelda!!!
and she's been in nearly every single game. I see her as more a Zero-Suit Samus situation where she's an alternate non-clone version of the same character rather than their own entity, even if they're in separate selection slots now. Impa's been there since the start too though and was still pretty notable in OoT and absolutely important in HW (as was Sheik!), so it's a sort of dumb argument either way. I'd prefer Tingle but they're both the remaining characters who keep reincarnating alongside Link and Zelda without going into legit 'one-off' territory.
 
I'd be fine with Midna, but less than pleased with Ghirahim.

Also it'd be great for SS Impa to be added, more POC representation in Smash.

EDIT: Wario had Wario Land: Shake It!, which sold actually quite well, and yes, Game & Wario is a bomb, but DKCTF is the worst-selling DKC game ever made. Should that mean that Dixie Kong shouldn't be in Smash?
 
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