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[KojiKnight]

Same. You can't release AAA games with A marketing budgets.

It's kind of interesting to see the subtle differences between "doubling down on profitable studios and franchises" vs "abandoning core gamers."

I'm just more amazed that Sony literally did nothing. I heard nothing, I expected nothing, I can't even recall it being mentioned on any review sites... I'm not a huge Sly fan, but I imagine there are quite a few who are and have no idea it's out either.

 

[funkystudent]

This just goes a long with the story I hear of management in SCEA being a complete mess.


The people signing the deals have completely different agendas then the people in marketing.
Heck Superbot and Lightbox and Eat, sleep, play were not random indie studios signed to a deal. SCEA helped set up those studios from day 1 then one day just cut them off completely. WHY? why go though all the hassle of setting up a studio only to kill it at the first chance you get?

At least SCEE you can see the logic. Yeah they closed Liverpool but in doing so they made Evolution stronger and having 2 first party racing studios + Polyphony just seems like a waste. They let the weaker studio go. It wasnt a random thing ether. I remember hearing Liverpool staff were being moved into Evo studio at least a year before the closure was announced.

Publishers close internal studios all the time. Its not a recent thing. Eventually a studio just outlives its usefulness or all the talent left.

Anyway I would just like to use this as my 58th post to say SCEA is a mess and needed to completely gut there upper executive team. Those people do not know what they are doing.



Also DID YOU KNOW? They actually released LBP karting last holiday? I didnt until yesterday.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

They're doing the right and pouring resources into successful IPs and teams and eliminating those that don't meet certain criteria. A great game pushes as much hardware as 10 mediocre ones.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

It's kind of interesting to see the subtle differences between "doubling down on profitable studios and franchises" vs "abandoning core gamers."

It is a very fine line.

 

[Loudninja]

I'm just more amazed that Sony literally did nothing. I heard nothing, I expected nothing, I can't even recall it being mentioned on any review sites... I'm not a huge Sly fan, but I imagine there are quite a few who are and have no idea it's out either.

Maybe you were not paying attention?They game had a demo,is cheaper price and had a animated short.

No tv ads though.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

Obviously, Microsoft is paying off journalists to write negative articles prior to the PS4 reveal.

 

[antonz]

they need to focus on the games that sell: Gran Turismo, God of War, Killzone, Uncharted, Little Big Planet.

cut all the other crap and stop wasting money on them. maybe fund 1 or 2 new IPs

They need to focus on a lot more than just that. Gran Turismo is their only mega franchise. The others sell par for big franchises.

 

[Satchel]

It is a very fine line.

Just here. Not in the real world.

 

[TheOddOne]

Insomniac Games has about 200 employees. Fuse can't be the only thing they are working on.

 

[The Light]

they need to focus on the games that sell: Gran Turismo, God of War, Killzone, Uncharted, Little Big Planet.

cut all the other crap and stop wasting money on them. maybe fund 1 or 2 new IPs

I have to disagree with pouring money into sequels. People will eventually get tired of them. Out of that list the only title I think can sustain an audience for that is GT.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Eh? Isn't Killzone still multi million selling franchise? Like between 2-3 million per game. Not huge success but easily enough to keep studio around.

Given how much money they pour into it vs other studios in their stable 2-3m is not enough. Killzone was supposed to be Sony's answer to Halo, at least that was the premise under which GG was purchased. It had all of the right ingredients, space, realism, greyness with a dash of colour but GG absolutely and completely failed to make it on time and they failed to give it a story that people would write fanboy theories about and spur spin off stories to really make it a franchise like Halo or Uncharted.

GG may have some technical skill (and I remain unconvinced, they had to be bailed out twice by SCE Cambridge) but they have absolutely zero artistic vision and zero storytelling nous. Killzone 2 was as subtle as a fucking brick in the face which is why it failed, and the same goes for Killzone 3.

 

[funkystudent]

Insomniac Games has about 200 employees. Fuse can't be the only thing they are working on.

Well they should be hard at work on pre-productions on "Fuse 2: ReFUSE to Fuse" since that game is going to be the next big thing.

Also they are getting into iOS / casual games pretty heavily.


There last few Sony published games have stank of "this game only exists to fulfil a contract". I guess after 15 years SCEA cant just cut them off like the other studios.

 

[TheOddOne]

Well they should be hard at work on pre-productions on "Fuse 2: ReFUSE to Fuse" since that game is going to be the next big thing.

Also they are getting into iOS / casual games pretty heavily.

There last few Sony published games have stank of "this game only exists to fulfil a contract". I guess after 15 years SCEA cant just cut them off like the other studios.

I wonder what the Resistance 3 crew is doing.

 

[Akkad]

I really don't see any reason why a developer would want to work with Sony nowadays...
It's like a death sentence for your studio.

lol, WTF?

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I have to disagree with pouring money into sequels. People will eventually get tired of them. Out of that list the only title I think can sustain an audience for that is GT.

It's not just about sequels. Those are arguable some of Sony's best and most successful IPs - it makes more sense to invest into those studios so they can make new games, rather then rely on unproven partnerships.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Well they should be hard at work on pre-productions on "Fuse 2: ReFUSE to Fuse" since that game is going to be the next big thing.

Also they are getting into iOS / casual games pretty heavily.


There last few Sony published games have stank of "this game only exists to fulfil a contract". I guess after 15 years SCEA cant just cut them off like the other studios.

Not in the least. Resistance 3 was given a full on production and marketing budget. It just wasn't a very good game, neither of the sequels captured the magic of the original (which shipped more than both sequels put together).

Ratchet and Clank is a great franchise, I like it and so do a lot of people on GAF, but at the end of the day, it is a holdover from the PS2 era. Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch (their partners in crime on PS2) struck gold with Uncharted and Infamous and followed them up with even better sequels, Insomniac didn't do that with Resistance and so had to revert to making R&C games, where ND and SP dropped their PS2 franchises (J&D, Sly) and forged new and more successful games on PS3.

 

[Loudninja]

It's not just about sequels. Those are arguable some of Sony's best and most successful IPs - it makes more sense to invest into those studios so they can make new games, rather then rely on unproven partnerships.

Media Molecule was unproven and that turn out to be one of Sony best studios.

Not in the least. Resistance 3 was given a full on production and marketing budget. It just wasn't a very good game, neither of the sequels captured the magic of the original (which shipped more than both sequels put together).

Ratchet and Clank is a great franchise, I like it and so do a lot of people on GAF, but at the end of the day, it is a holdover from the PS2 era. Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch (their partners in crime on PS2) struck gold with Uncharted and Infamous and followed them up with even better sequels, Insomniac didn't do that with Resistance and so had to revert to making R&C games, where ND and SP dropped their PS2 franchises (J&D, Sly) and forged new and more successful games on PS3.

Nonsense R3 was the best of the series.

 

[SykoTech]

Poor Sanzaru, didn't know it was that bad there.

Weren't they suppose to be making another PS3 game too?

 

[Pachterballs]

Of the successful franchises, day 1 on infamous/uncharted + loads more. Can't say the same for the majority of titles in that shack news writeup.

 

[ymmv]

Ratchet and Clank is a great franchise, I like it and so do a lot of people on GAF, but at the end of the day, it is a holdover from the PS2 era. Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch (their partners in crime on PS2) struck gold with Uncharted and Infamous and followed them up with even better sequels, Insomniac didn't do that with Resistance and so had to revert to making R&C games, where ND and SP dropped their PS2 franchises (J&D, Sly) and forged new and more successful games on PS3.

I only wish Insomniac had made three full R&C games instead of two great ones and three small download titles no one asked for. Such a bad idea.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Also DID YOU KNOW? They actually released LBP karting last holiday? I didnt until yesterday.

LBPK had a problem that it was two years too late. When LBP went big in 2008 Sony should have commissioned a kart racer based on the series and had it ready to go in 2010 and made a massive deal about how it's Mario Kart in HD with a different overlay. In fact they should have just copied the MK formula with LBP styling and Sony characters as the racers, just like Mario Kart. But it needed to come out in 2010 and be bundled heavily.

 

[Drek]

I really don't see any reason why a developer would want to work with Sony nowadays...
It's like a death sentence for your studio.

Unless you make good games. Most of Sony's first party studios were 2nd parties they partnered with during the PS1, PS2, and even the PS3 eras of their consoles.

This is Sony's first party process. They bring in a 2nd party studio, help them turn out a few games, if those games do well they offer to buy them and make them first party. If they don't they cut them loose.

Just so happens if you make a few mediocre games and Sony cuts you loose that the likelihood of finding another worthwhile publishing deal is pretty slim.

This also more underscores the inability of the management within these studios to conduct long term planning and budgeting. Sanzaru released the best game of the now endangered/dead studios and they had to cut payroll before the game even had a chance to do anything at retail. Superbot is talking about similar issues pretty shortly after their game came out too. This is a problem with management not securing a next step after the current project, either through poor planning or lack of ability to close a deal. You can't go looking for your next meal when you're hungry in any competitive industry.

As for the first party closures, I'd say most of them make sense.

Zipper wanted to move away from the SOCOM IP and were given their big budget shot with MAG. It failed. They then were given the chance to return to their base and bring SOCOM back, failed again. The writing was on the wall when they made Unit 13 because they had shown an inability to deliver a contemporary shooter that appealed to consumers in the same way as Battlefield and CoD. If they'd stuck with what they were good at and made the needed evolutionary steps to the SOCOM IP they might have established themselves as a major first party studio. It's a lesson to every developer who wants to try a new IP when the current IP is still going strong and not suffering from brain drain.

Liverpool closing upset me personally because I'm a big WipEout fan, but it's not like Liverpool was turning out a high volume of product relative to team size, they look to have had considerable staff turnover as it was (lead designer changes on all recent WipEout games is an example of this), and weren't a big retail power. So if you have Evolution located in Runcorn and they're bigger, where the group manager is located, and been more successful at retail why would you maintain a second studio all of 15 miles away? It's inefficient. Assuming the rumors that a bunch of Liverpool people moved over to Evolution that seems to only make economic sense. It doesn't mean WipEout is dead either, just that they were a part of the bloat you can trim down periodically.

BigBig just failed to deliver great games. Middling games with nice ideas, sure, but nothing that really impressed. Eventually you move on.

The standard for first party growth that I'd like to see from Sony is maturing their proven studios into larger, more productive, more bankable entities - which is already being done, and identifying their next wave of future first party studios.

Not having bought Insomniac is problematic, in my mind, though that is likely due to Insomniac's own choice. That situation might change after Fuse, we'll see.

Ready at Dawn not being purchased after their excellent work on the PSP is also questionable, though they do have "an exciting new IP for a Next-Generation home console" listed as their current project on the website. Note the singularity of that statement. Maybe MS swooped in and hired them up for a X720 game, but that seems highly unlikely. Sony giving them a full featured new IP early on with the PS4 to prove their metal seems like a realistic scenario here, and isn't too different from what they did with Sucker Punch.

Next they need to give The Workshop (Sorcery) and Tarsier (LBP Vita) another release or two to see what more they can do, both have promise.

Overall I'd say their first party studios are in the strongest position they've been in to date and if they identify some upcoming talented 2nd parties at the start of this generation they have the makings of a real break out.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Given how much money they pour into it vs other studios in their stable 2-3m is not enough. Killzone was supposed to be Sony's answer to Halo, at least that was the premise under which GG was purchased. It had all of the right ingredients, space, realism, greyness with a dash of colour but GG absolutely and completely failed to make it on time and they failed to give it a story that people would write fanboy theories about and spur spin off stories to really make it a franchise like Halo or Uncharted.

GG may have some technical skill (and I remain unconvinced, they had to be bailed out twice by SCE Cambridge) but they have absolutely zero artistic vision and zero storytelling nous. Killzone 2 was as subtle as a fucking brick in the face which is why it failed, and the same goes for Killzone 3.

You're completely wrong. Killzone 2 had an absurd amount of hype behind it. Retail preorders were through the roof.

What GG did wrong was multiplayer. It wasn't designed for mainstream.
1) The game had major issues with controls. Even after the deadzones were fixed, input lag was above average (> 150ms) and the controls had way too much inertia for precise aiming. This is a major issue for many casual players.
2) Multplayer lacked persistance and unlockables. Call of Duty did this flawlessly and KZ2 was severely lacking. Class unlock system didn't have too much substance, as you could unlock 95% of everything in 10-15 hours of play time.
3) Gameplay was unbalanced. 32 players, really GG?
4) Server list and game settings allowed for too much freedom for an average player, resulting in few gamemodes and maps being the only thing played.

Basically, game had fundemental flaws that kept it from being a blockbuster. And those flaws have nothing to do with story/art.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Nonsense R3 was the best of the series.

Great rebuttal dude.

R3 was nowhere near as good as the original, oh sure it had better graphics and similar enough gameplay but the story was a steaming pile of dog shit. I would love for Sony to give the Resistance franchise to Cambridge and have them make a proper sequel to R:FoM, something like Resistance: Rise of Man where the player is a commander (can't be Hale, he's infected with a fucking virus and in the US) in the rebellion against the aliens, stay in Europe and use old school tech and weapons. None of this "infected by Chimeran virus" shit, just good old fashioned WW2 style shooting set in Europe but instead of fighting Nazis we fight aliens.

 

[ymmv]

This just goes a long with the story I hear of management in SCEA being a complete mess.

The people signing the deals have completely different agendas then the people in marketing.
Heck Superbot and Lightbox and Eat, sleep, play were not random indie studios signed to a deal. SCEA helped set up those studios from day 1 then one day just cut them off completely. WHY? why go though all the hassle of setting up a studio only to kill it at the first chance you get?

At least SCEE you can see the logic. Yeah they closed Liverpool but in doing so they made Evolution stronger and having 2 first party racing studios + Polyphony just seems like a waste. They let the weaker studio go. It wasnt a random thing ether. I remember hearing Liverpool staff were being moved into Evo studio at least a year before the closure was announced.

SCEE is just as bad as SCEA. Together they've wasted millions of dollars/euros developing the following 2012 sales bombas:

• Twisted Metal
• Starhawk
• Wonderbook: Book of Spells
• Ratchet & Clank - Qforce
• Sport Champions 2
• Playstation All Star Battle Royale
• Sorcery
• LittleBigPlanet Karting
• Dance Star: Party Hits

I'm not even listing any of the Vita games, most of those sold terribly too. It's a good thing Sony's games output is remembered for its successes, because there were a lot of games that crashed like a lead zeppelin. It's a good thing that Sony's 2013 titles are once again targeting their core demographic. 2012 was a year will probably like to forget as soon as possible.

 

[Vlodril]

Out of all of that the only mistaken move i can see is closing down Liverpool studios. They were producing quality. Of course we dont really know what was happening inside the company so.. maybe they were in financial trouble. On the other hand you keep companies alive in japan that haven't produced a game for an entire generation so..

 

[alr1ght]

Insomniac Games has about 200 employees. Fuse can't be the only thing they are working on.

They also have 2 studios.

 

[Stronty]

What is Icognito? Are they 2nd party? Allways liked their games especially War of the Monsters.

 

[Clear]

Here's the thing: Sly Cooper is by no means a AAA franchise. Its just not. Its not even an example of a currently hot genre. So expecting big promotion for it... never likely.

Its also not an original IP owned by Sanzaru, so they weren't in a particularly strong bargaining position going forwards.

Similar deal applies to Superbot; again they don't own the IP so basically it was more work-for-hire, and again not in a particularly top-selling genre.

Realistically, who else is outsourcing contracts for platform games and party-style fighting games?

If these guys were coming out with dazzling new IP's and Sony was cutting ties with them, I could see a complaint, but the hard business reality is that they both got given a shot at the big time, backed by existing IP's provided by their partners to give them a better chance of shifting a few units.

This whole "sent to die" argument is utter bullshit; Since when was spending millions in marketing the norm? Not every title can get top billing.

 

[Orca]

SCEE is just as bad as SCEA. Together they've wasted millions of dollars/euros developing the following 2012 sales bombas:

• Twisted Metal
• Starhawk
• Wonderbook: Book of Spells
• Ratchet & Clank - Qforce
• Sport Champions 2
• Playstation All Star Battle Royale
• Sorcery
• LittleBigPlanet Karting
• Dance Star: Party Hits

I'm not even listing any of the Vita games, most of those sold terribly too. It's a good thing Sony's games output is remembered for its successes, because there were a lot of games that crashed like a lead zeppelin. It's a good thing that Sony's 2013 titles are once again targeting their core demographic. 2012 was a year will probably like to forget as soon as possible.

What was Ratchet & Clank - Qforce? Edit - Ohhhhh, it was called FFA here.

 

[Proxy]

Certainly unreasonable to expect B-tier games to get the sales and marketing of AAA games. You can certainly fault Sony for not giving these titles MSRPs that match their budgets. Although, Sly Cooper 4 is a step in the right direction.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Sorry, but marketing wasn't going to make games like Sly Cooper and PSABR sell-well.

 

[Pachterballs]

SCEE is just as bad as SCEA. Together they've wasted millions of dollars/euros developing the following 2012 sales bombas:

• Twisted Metal
  
• Starhawk
  
• Wonderbook: Book of Spells
  
• Ratchet & Clank - Qforce
  
• Sport Champions 2
  
• Playstation All Star Battle Royale
  
• Sorcery
  
• LittleBigPlanet Karting
  
• Dance Star: Party Hits
  

I'm not even listing any of the Vita games, most of those sold terribly too. It's a good thing Sony's games output is remembered for its successes, because there were a lot of games that crashed like a lead zeppelin. It's a good thing that Sony's 2013 titles are once again targeting their core demographic. 2012 was a year will probably like to forget as soon as possible.

you might have a point but the zangagi (?) games on move - apparently "sold millions of units" (from that thread) and they are hiring for next gen.

so whatever people think of move, the games are probably cheap to make - they budget right and are expanding.

 

[DaBoss]

Sorry, but marketing wasn't going to make games like Sly Cooper and PSABR sell-well.

It would have helped it sell better than it has.

 

[Verendus]

This just goes a long with the story I hear of management in SCEA being a complete mess.

SCEA was all over the place, but that's being tightened up from what I understand. The problem there was too many people doing shit someone else didn't want doing. It will be falling under one umbrella now, which will help give a more singular, and focused path.

Also, if Sly 4 sells a million copies, it'd be considered a big success. It doesn't need to, nor is it expected to, sell millions. It's also a great game. Just saying.

 

[Metallix87]

they released sly 1-3 which is excellent marketing for 4.

That collection came out in November 2010. It's February 2013.

 

[graywolf323]

Here's the thing: Sly Cooper is by no means a AAA franchise. Its just not. Its not even an example of a currently hot genre. So expecting big promotion for it... never likely.

Its also not an original IP owned by Sanzaru, so they weren't in a particularly strong bargaining position going forwards.

Similar deal applies to Superbot; again they don't own the IP so basically it was more work-for-hire, and again not in a particularly top-selling genre.

Realistically, who else is outsourcing contracts for platform games and party-style fighting games?

If these guys were coming out with dazzling new IP's and Sony was cutting ties with them, I could see a complaint, but the hard business reality is that they both got given a shot at the big time, backed by existing IP's provided by their partners to give them a better chance of shifting a few units.

This whole "sent to die" argument is utter bullshit; Since when was spending millions in marketing the norm? Not every title can get top billing.

I sometimes wonder what some here on GAF define as marketing, admittedly I haven't seen any for Sly 4 but to act like Sony didn't promote LBP Karting or PlayStation All-Stars at all is ridiculous

 

[The Light]

I sometimes wonder what some here on GAF define as marketing, admittedly I haven't seen any for Sly 4 but to act like Sony didn't promote LBP Karting or PlayStation All-Stars at all is ridiculous

I think people are referring to television ads which sly had none. As for LBPK those were a needle in a haystack and All-Stars commercials did not even show what the game was about.

 

[mugoldeneagle03]

Sorry, but marketing wasn't going to make games like Sly Cooper and PSABR sell-well.

Shit marketing for the PS3, even shittier marketing for the Vita = Shit chances for two games that utilize cross buy for both systems. So yes marketing would help a lot.

 

[fvng]

lets be honest here. The delay is why they went broke.


article is by yoon.

Jenova said they went broke because they went over their two year budget, they asked Sony for more time so they were given two extensions to polish the game. He then thanked Sony for their patience. It is fun to blame Sony for everything so lets just go with that.

 

[Kenshin001]

Sorry, but marketing wasn't going to make games like Sly Cooper and PSABR sell-well.

It might not make them sell blockbuster numbers but they would still be profitable and sell well enough to justify the studios partnering with Sony in the future.

 

[Berordn]

I think people are referring to television ads which sly had none. As for LBPK those were a needle in a haystack and All-Stars commercials did not even show what the game was about.

Marketing doesn't have to blatantly tell you what the game's about, just look at the old SSB64 "Happy Together" commercial. The Robot Chicken commercial for PSASBR basically does the same thing, the difference being nobody cares about Sony properties going head to head. The same goes for LittleBigPlanet Karting, that ship has long sailed.

I don't know what marketing could've done for Sly, but something other than sparse internet promotions probably wouldn't have hurt.

 

[dragonfart28]

I guess that's why devs call exclusivity for the platform 'Sony Jail'.

 

[Kenshin001]

This also applies to indies on PSN. The platform just does not seem attractive to developers and judging from the abysmal sales of games like Closure and Derrick, the self publishing model doesn't seem viable.

 

[Baki]

Marketing doesn't have to blatantly tell you what the game's about, just look at the old SSB64 "Happy Together" commercial. The Robot Chicken commercial for PSASBR basically does the same thing, the difference being nobody cares about Sony properties going head to head. The same goes for LittleBigPlanet Karting, that ship has long sailed.

I don't know what marketing could've done for Sly, but something other than sparse internet promotions probably wouldn't have hurt.

hahaah...That advert is awesome!

 

[Uncle Rupee]

Aside from Studio Liverpool this is what is known as cutting the fat.
Nobody in their right mind gives two shits about Sly Cooper anymore.
It was a third-rate platformer when it was brand-spanking new - ranking below Jak and Ratchet,
and it is frankly amazing the series even made it to the PS3.
SOCOM was a series who's 15 minutes had long since passed, and the Smash Bros rip-off was a poorly conceived mess.
Good riddance, I say.

 

[jstevenson]

so much truth.

lol

its looks fucking terrible too. designed by committee.

funny, not a single journalist who has played it in the last three weeks has had any sort of comment or reaction nearly close to that.

 

[Kenshin001]

Aside from Studio Liverpool this is what is known as cutting the fat.
Nobody in their right mind gives two shits about Sly Cooper anymore.
It was a third-rate platformer when it was brand-spanking new - ranking below Jak and Ratchet,
and it is frankly amazing the series even made it to the PS3.
SOCOM was a series who's 15 minutes had long since passed, and the Smash Bros rip-off was a poorly conceived mess.
Good riddance, I say.

Regarding Sly and I think this applies to Twisted Metal too, you are right. Dredging up these old IPs was a mistake.

As far as SOCOM goes I disagree. That series just needed someone at the top with their finger on the pulse to step in and direct Zipper, which is something Sony seem to be lacking in Shuhei Yoshida. SOCOM should have been Sony's answer to Gears, with a 4 player co-op campaign and compelling MP. They really dropped the ball.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I guess that's why devs call exclusivity for the platform 'Sony Jail'.

they're all going to move to the wiiU right?

With all of these restrictions Sony/MS are bringing AND the steep incline in development costs for next gen, you are going to see a significant shift in third party support in Wii U's favour.

 

[fallagin]

It does suck for these studios, but its kind of hard considering the position that sony is in. They are losing fistfulls of money right and left, the vita is tanking, their other divisions are doing really bad, the ps3 is doing fine but its not a huge success.

Sony just doesn't seem to have a huge pool of cash to throw around at every project. Their marketing is pretty bad right now, but that is also a result of their financial woes. Right now they just have to focus on surefire successes like the last of us and gran turismo games and other stuff that is lower risk. Their realizing that they cant do what theyve been doing and now they have to follow ms and nintendo's lead of releasing fewer, but high quality games.