camelCase
Member
If they're reselling it then the should have fixed that
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Shenmue 1 & 2, what were the devs doing?
- Thread starter camelCase
- Start date
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You could think what you like but DOOM 2016 going from 60 FPS to 30 FPS is, magnitude wise, a much greater jump than Shenmue going from 30 FPS to 60 FPS. The game has framerate tied to game systems (down to framerate fluctuations directly affecting game playback speed) and, while there is nothing that makes me thing their ported engine cannot hold 60 FPS in terms of performance, I do not think it would have been trivial to do not it is something Shenmue as an experience really begs for.
Sure SEGA could have roped in BluePoint, if available, earlier and set aside a bigger budget and go for a SotC style remake, but for the longest time it was a "no way, forget about them" kind of reply and from that getting a locked 30 FPS (instead of the highly fluctuating original framerate), higher resolution widescreen rendering, improved image quality (see DF's review), and some tweaked effects (bloom lighting does work well in Shenmue I)... that is still THE definitive way to play Shenmue and that is what I wanted (bugs notwithstanding).
There are some bugs and there is really no good reason for this (it, the game and its announcement, could have been delayed by a month or so without problems), but this is no Silent Hill HD collection on Xbox 360 kind of scenario.
camelCase
Member
You say some fair arguments but everything you say is excuses. I don't even know why you feel compelled to say these things; they're obvious. Really I don't know why you feel like you need to spew these excuses. Do you not want better?
Like why are you so ok with a dreamcast port that is so lazily done... I've said it before the game is 2 decades old... lol and yet it's just fine that they threw it up there without giving two shits about how it looked and played. You give them too much credit friend. It isn't my prerogative to give people the benefit of the doubt when they release bullshit.
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
What I said is obvious yet you are talking about lazy port?! Uhm... and I already said I was happy with something that could be considered the ultimate way to be able to play and replay that experience and for £29 that is fine by me... once they fix the audio and camera bugs :/... then again for me it was about being able to preserve this game and being able to enjoy it again as if it ran on a Super Dreamcast of sorts as I already liked it before when it came out many moons ago, maybe you were not a fan of it before/never played it before?
camelCase
Member
I had never played this game and I am disappointed to have paid what I did for it
This encapsulates how I feel about the game. I pay a premium if I am served a premium and I was not. The fact that you are happy with the scruples you were served doesn't mean anything to me
"once they fix the audio and camera bugs :/..."
Last edited:
It's solid overall but, yeah, there are some really annoying bugs - many of which we were told would be addressed with a patch that either never materialized or simply didn't cover everything it should.
From what I understand, the developers had a rough time with this one - unreasonably difficult time tables and nightmare spaghetti code. I can only imagine how stressful it must have been.
Cranberrys
Member
The point of Shenmue I & II is to make you experienced what was Shenmue back then and so the game is presented nearly as it was, except for 1080p rez because 480p on an actual TV would be unbearable, bloom, and 16/9 (heresy, Shenmue is meant to be played 4/3). So yeah, if you are not familiar with it, controls are in line with the old RE games so tedious, the game is very slow paced by design, and so on. All these things were known about Shenmue for years. It's not a big surprise here. I Don't know if people expected total remakes of the game and features like speeding time because, again, the time thing is a design choice by Yu Suzuki. Anyway, SEGA never said the game would be remade and we can consider us fairly happy to have this compilation because for years SEGA didn't even want to hear about Shenmue.
It's like buying a classic movie like Jaws on Blu-ray, the special effects would never match Infinity War. All you get is a restaured pictures and it's fine by me. There's no shortage of modern games, Shenmue doesn't have to comply to anything, it's a cult classic game and it's meant to be played the way it is (and in 4/3 format).
Last edited:
Windom Earle
Banned
Complaining about the 30fps lock is stupid because it can't be fixed. Still, seems to be a messy piece of work as of now. Waiting for patches.
camelCase
Member
You people are exhausting
I prefer the wire being shown in its original 4:3 format (the seasons that were filmed in that aspect ratio)
But this isn't that. Idk why the preservationists are coming out of the woodwork to defend this.
camelCase
Member
Yep
Last edited:
JohnSpartanLee
Member
Is there an HD textures thread somewhere like for RE4 (doesn't have to be on neogaf)?
Last edited:
nowhat
Member
The question is though - why would they uncompress them? I doubt they have access to the original source files, or they'd clean them up a bit (as it is, the speech sounds like ass).
But going from lossy compression to lossless (there's no point using WAV, something like FLAC surely) wouldn't serve any purpose. The damage (lossy compression) has already been done.
Hmm, honestly for a port I usually expect the bare minimum since it is usually just a quick buck for these companies. So the 30fps isn't surprising and would require probably a lot more money than they were willing to put into it. I honestly just think that if you didn't play this game in the past then this game really isn't for you (outside of possibly enjoying some gaming history?). Nostalgia hype can create hype for games that most folks wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole these days.
camelCase
Member
I guess I appreciate your honesty, I just expect more of humans. I had no nostalgia so maybe this wasn't for me
If this was a passion project for them then I would expect more but I usually expect less of people and far less from companies. I honestly haven't played the game either so I plan to get it later since I have been seeing it in magazines and reading about it on forums for years but my expectations are honestly really low for the game because of how old it is.
camelCase
Member
I have similarly low expectations of it
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Two games with plenty of improvements (massively reduced load time, resolution and IQ, bloom effect, rock solid framerate, etc...) for £29 is not "premium".
Cranberrys
Member
I Don't understand what you expect from Shenmue ? You really think that SEGA would do a total remake of a niche game ? Or redo all the textures in 4K for two games sold at 30€ ? Or rerecord all the audio in Dolby Atmos maybe ? You cannot pull 4K out of thin air from assets 20 years old. You can't turn compressed audio into high res audio either without rerecording everything... If your assets are compressed, then it is what it is. A 128 kbps MP3 even uncompressed in WAV will never sound as the original WAV file. Plus SEGA never spoke of a remake, it was clearly a remaster from the beginning.
nowhat
Member
True, it will sound exactly like the original 128kbps MP3 file. Which is why I'm somewhat baffled by people suggesting they'd use uncompressed audio here - it just doesn't make any sense.
floatstarpx
Member
I think people are trying to understand why the game is suddenly 10x the size (~20GB), which is why there's a suggestion that all the assets are uncompressed (but still the same as the original assets). I don't know why it's so big. - but that could be one theory. Some people have started on a high-res texture mod for PC already, so I bet they'll know what the deal is
I think SEGA used something called "ADX" for audio back then. - you see the logo on the start screens of a lot of Dreamcast games.
The game is so clunky and awkward and weird, but that's half the charm. I finished Shenmue I on the Dreamcast, but never finished II - so hoping to play through both before 3 comes out.
goldenpp72
Member
Anyone expecting 60 fps in this is a fool. The other issues are valid however.
gamerforever
Banned
I'm happy with the port apart from the glitches. Just having it in widescreen is a joy and full hd is enough, even for 4k tvs. The bugs need to be squashed and we can all be happy. I just don't get how a lot of these dodgy cutscenes weren't noticed in testing? They are pretty obvious. I wonder if the issue relates to ps4 pro with boot mode enabled?
thatJohann
Member
I think the ports are fine. Sure 60fps would be great but no other issues.
Hostile_18
Banned
This reminds me of the BioShock collection where people were so down on it yet compared to the old console versions it was night and day better.
It's two great albeit it buggy games, visually looking their best with fast loading at a discounted price.
I'm loving it
It's two great albeit it buggy games, visually looking their best with fast loading at a discounted price.
I'm loving it
RawAmericanSteel
Banned
I've never seen a forum that cries and complains about so much than this one. If you love Shenmue, this is AWESOME. Plain and simple. Imagine being a fan, waiting 15 years for this, and crying on the internet cause a few cutscenes don't show up properly. Jesus.This reminds me of the BioShock collection where people were so down on it yet compared to the old console versions it was night and day better.
It's two great albeit it buggy games, visually looking their best with fast loading at a discounted price.
I'm loving it
Cranberrys
Member
Shenmue is a visionary and unique production, especially when it is placed in the context of its release in December 1999. He perfectly embodies SEGA's very specific videogame philosophy when they were still console manufacturers. In many respects, it is not usurped to say that it is a cult game, a UFO, on the legendary console that was the Dreamcast. Its relative success had a confidential impact in a sector yet specialized in the duplication of concepts. Even today, this masterpiece – because it is necessary to take the risk of qualifying it as such – doesn't suffer any alterations.
In gestation for many years in the brain of Yu Suzuki, then head of the AM2, the most legendary of SEGA's studios. Shenmue, with its numerous episodes announced and its excessive ambitions, quickly became one of the craziest projects in the industry at the time. The budget allocated by SEGA was so colossal that it participated in the financial fragility, then very real, of the Japanese manufacturer. Were such investments worth it? Although success did not live up to expectations, it appears retrospectively obvious that it was an indispensable development to evolve video games to new directions but also to prove all the wealth and Diversity of their language. Almost 20 years after its initial release, Shenmue is still surprisingly modern, visionary and unequalled. He probably will never be.
Yu Suzuki began to think about Shenmue as early as 1994, when the Saturn had just arrived on the shelves. Planned on the 32-bit, the title was then codename Virtua Fighter RPG and then became some time after the famous Project Berkley. There is also a technical demo made on Saturn and dating back to 1996 (accessible after finishing the game in the "Shenmue Collection" of the 4th GD-Rom of Shenmue II). Too ambitious, the title will soon be cramped on Saturn, whose technology proved too limited for a project of this magnitude. So it was the Dreamcast, Little monster of Power, that hosted the saga of Ryo Hazuki.
Shenmue is difficult to define. Moreover, to do so, SEGA used the term "F.R.E.E." for "Full reactive Eyes Entertainment". The term is a bit pompous. The best way to conceptualize it is to imagine it as a cocktail composed of known tastes but whose final flavor is unique. The heart of the game is to conduct an investigation to solve the murder of Ryo Hazuki's father by the mysterious Lan Di. This will involve exploring places, meeting and questioning different characters in order to advance the plot. It starts in Japan, in the town of Yokosuka, to continue in Hong Kong, then in the small bucolic Chinese village of Guilin. This form of investigative gameplay is borrowed from the adventure games of the early 90's. It might seem daunting if it was not recorded in a very precise representation of the various places travelled by our hero. It is possible to manipulate almost everything: from the drawers of the dresser of the room of Ryo to the terminals of the arcade. The amazed player can even play the AM2 classics such as Space Harrier, OutRun or Hang On. The addition of all these little things gives the lasting impression of being lost in a strange and wonderful elsewhere. For us, Western players, to evolve in Asia and more especially in Japan, land of our greatest playful myths, has something deeply moving.
To overcome the monotony, the developers have integrated two separate but complementary phases of action: the QTE and the Free Battle. The QTE unfold during dynamic cinematics and are based on simplistic gameplay that purely relies on reflexes. Despite their ease, these passages are finally very catchy because they allow to participate concretely in scenes normally scripted and therefore passive. The Free Battle mode oscillates somewhere between streets Of Rage and Virtua Fighter. Indeed, the principle of street fighting is a direct takeover of SEGA's mythical beat'em all, while the variety and number of hits are the result of the king of 3d fighting games. Skilfully dosed, these phases often constitute intense and sometimes unforgettable moments of action.
Finally, the last facet of Shenmue is that of a life simulator, failing to find a more appropriate term. The components the existence of Ryo Hazuki have been reproduced with great care. The places visited are full of life and details. At the beginning of the adventure, it is possible to manipulate the family house from top to bottom. Unnecessary gestures most of the time but which allow to materialize the scenery, to give it a consistency. It is no longer a textured polygon but indeed an alternative reality. When the meticulous player has, for example, the idea of observing the kitchen table in subjective view, he sees Ryo relive a moment of complicity with his disappeared father , the emotional impact is then striking. For the first time, simple and moving feelings are modestly expressed, without resorting to grandiloquent staging effects. Like real life, Shenmue is finally a succession of small things that form the chain of experience and sensitivity forged as a result of meetings and events. Like Ryo Hazuki, the player finds his own way to evolve in this universe. Some will spend hours collecting figurines – from SEGA's mythical series – while others train scrupulously in martial arts in the family dojo or in a park in the heart of Hong Kong. There is not only one way to progress in the adventure. Everyone will find their own rhythm and create their own history. And even if the two episodes have a deadline that, outdated, automatically gives the "bad ending", the time allotted is long enough to allow the passage of seasons.
Ryo Hazuki is probably the most humane hero ever created by SEGA. When the player takes control, he is eighteen years old and has just come out of the depravity of adolescence. He's assisting, dazed, about the murder of his father. From this moment it seems to be permanently disconnected from reality, almost apathetic. It is not a traditional video game hero who will wear a blind vengeance by slaughteringing everyone in his path. Ryo wears a pain that he is unable to express or even feel. He therefore concentrates meticulously on his daily tasks and that is precisely where the trivial work and the slow pacing of the game such as working on the docks or training in martial arts takes all their meaning. Ryo rarely expresses his emotions, he gradually falls into the sickly compulsion to find the murderer of his father and decides to trace the events that led to this murder. Yet, for the player, embodying a character as erased is a great and playful way of appropriating it, injecting into the game something of his own initiatory quest and abandoning himself to discovery.
It is not to be imagined that freedom is total and that the possibilities of experimentation are endless. In reality, Shenmue is a linear game in which it is virtually impossible to get lost. Progress information is always explicitly reported to the player but more elegantly than the beacons found in modern games. In this sense, this is probably one of the most accessible games released by SEGA. Everything was thought to thin the process. Yet it offers a true sense of freedom. The simple fact of having to explore a universe populated by hundreds of unique characters is already a fascinating act in itself. The surroundings are so beautiful that the only pleasure to walk is already fabulous. The strength of Shenmue is that it has no immediacy, it does not work on the principle of chaining the levels one after another or hurrying to get to the end. In that sense, the nearest title conceptually would perhaps be Animal crossing. The goal is to prolong the experience as long as possible or simply to let go, with no specific objectives. We can of course reproach the game for closing as many doors as he opens, to simulate a feeling of freedom finally very marked. In fact, it does not matter. Shenmue is a trip, a destination of choice for those who see in video games something other than just a hobby. Yu Suzuki has created a world and infused it with life, wandering, the player not only embodies Ryo Hazuki, he has the chance to discover a certain Japan, poetic and profound, to bring back with him memories of landscapes and meetings. Ine-san, Fuku-san, Nozomi... None of these characters are anonymous, nor are the places crossed as the small supermarket with the figurine machines, the park with the swings at the end of the street or the temple with the stray kitten.
Shenmue is also, and perhaps above all, a nostalgic walk in the 80's and a tribute to what was a certain golden age of video games. For those who have not experienced this period, it is also a way of understanding what made it specific. The stop of the Dreamcast and the capitulation of SEGA in the manufacturing business also mark the end of innocence, the end of the simple fascination that could exert these assemblies of pixels in motion. Video games have now become adults and nothing will ever be the same. This is even more true with Shenmue II, which was the last great game of the Dreamcast before the end of its production and which took place in 1987, a time when the company's future seemed glorious. A way for SEGA to send a thank you to all his fans, one last waving hand: "Thank you for playing".
Last edited:
theclaw135
Banned
The exhausting thing here is having to repeat ourselves about how the game was designed.
Personally, I'd prefer that companies take a more preservationist approach to porting and sell the games at a budget price to match.
Rather than have to pay full price for an ill-advised remaster that tries to bite off more than it can chew.
ipukespiders
Member
Assuming the bugs get fixed, as long as it's Shenmue as it was without me having to dig out my Dreamcast and original XBOX then I'm happy. I don't think I could stand to listen to my Dreamcast GD-ROM drive grinding again.
Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
See, this is why Shenmue's fanbase is so special. And I mean that in a good way.
camelCase
Member
Yes I agree with this post
Lol how is it not? And the things you listed are plainly not true.
Resolution and IQ? Have u played the game you're defending? Whatever man we plainly don't agree on what constitutes a presentable release in this time.
That said I am having an alright time with the game. It's just inscrutable compared to what I'm used to. Love R2 to run, wish yakuza took that cue
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I will qualify my resolution and IQ comments further:
- [Resolution]: The screen resolution is clearly not 480p, the presentation is not just 4:3 anymore (in gameplay) and on PC it even supports super wide monitors with the right FOV.
- [IQ]: The textures are not just sampled using bilinear without mipmapping (no mipmapping: see the lack of "texture resolution bands" which would be caused by clear transition between mip map levels that was common in many Dreamcast games, no trilinear: tri-linear would blend two bilinear sets of texture samples from two different mip map levels) as in the original leaving a lot of surface aliasing/shimmering in the distance.
- [IQ]: The output is not dithered to a lower color depth leaving banding behind, no heavy geometry aliasing of large objects and thin phone/power line wires,
- Lighting is a bit more impactful with the availability of not too heavy handed light bloom in both Shenmue games (change over the Dreamcast version of Shenmue I... and the version of Shenmue II has the proper shadows of the Dreamcast version with most of the improved effects of the Xbox release).
- Last but not least the framerate is not a fluctuating "trying to be 30 FPS" problem anymore but rock solid 30 FPS.
It is not dirt cheap, but I fail to see how it is a lot less value for your money than DS: Remastered and the Wii U to Switch ports we have been having and will continue to have. Two games with decent remaster work now available for PC (helps to preserve them much more easily and all versions now have both language packs), Xbox One, and PS4 at £29 does not seem a bad deal. I am not sure if you would have gotten it for even £9 which means that simply they lost you as a customer, but that may be ok. I also think that the App Store like race to the bottom in terms of price to reach out beyond your fan base is a mistake that has pushed that same Store to be the land of micro transactions and live services models.
Last edited:
camelCase
Member
None of which really matter to me dude. I would probably rather play this on DC if I owned one but I don't. 4:3 doesn't bother me nor does shitty pixelated graphics which tbh make themselves way more evident when on a 1080 screen than my CRT. The improvements you cite are superfluous to me, different strokes though.
And no I haven't seen DF's overview I'm just going on my impressions of the game
And I wouldn't have defended DS remastered and all that shit. I hate on those too it's just this is the one I bought
theclaw135
Banned
My word. Learn to enjoy life a little. We don't need the game picked apart that way to know what it is, and what it isn't.
Last edited:
camelCase
Member
How deeply profound
Redneckerz
Banned
EDIT:
P
Panajev2001a
already linked to it, but it does not hurt to link it again so the message is clear lol.
Game developing and porting is no easy task, even when it involves the supposely ''easy task'' of porting a game over to a new platform. For all we know they ran into various issues during development, considering the platform differences. The reason you don't see these is because these things occur under the hood and are obscured for the player. You only see the end result, not the road that lead up to said result.
I get it, its easy to call something incompetent when all you see is what is on the screen. But in this case, with such old code, i feel a reservation is in order.
Ill just dump DF's video in here. Also keep in mind that John Linneman on repeat has said that there is more to this game than one may think, and hopefully, the video details this aswell.
There is a resolution bump to 1080p on both consoles compared to the 640x480 (I believe) on DC. Rescaling all that artwork to a console the game obviously was not targeting at time of release obviously takes space. Visual improvements and making them look in place also takes time. Then there are also various extra's not included with the DC release.
Great compliment to the devs at bay here who obviously had a rather limited budget to this. The game is completely playable, at 1080p, with faster loadtimes and even some extra's thrown in. But yeah, they are incompetent.
Game developing and porting is no easy task, even when it involves the supposely ''easy task'' of porting a game over to a new platform. For all we know they ran into various issues during development, considering the platform differences. The reason you don't see these is because these things occur under the hood and are obscured for the player. You only see the end result, not the road that lead up to said result.I get it, its easy to call something incompetent when all you see is what is on the screen. But in this case, with such old code, i feel a reservation is in order.
Can you name a few examples? Else, what can be extrapolated from your post?
Ill just dump DF's video in here. Also keep in mind that John Linneman on repeat has said that there is more to this game than one may think, and hopefully, the video details this aswell.
This isn't a remaster in that sense of the word. Its also not a remake, its a straight port reworked for full HD. That's it. The sound is that Shenmue Magic because the devs dont have access to the original master disks of the audio. Even so, you would need the original VA's to record new lines to get a better audio quality, so that''s out of the question. Although it is funny how the Japanese VO is slightly less raffled than the English VO.
The camera bugs are honestly few of the things that could be patched up, but even so, the game is totally acceptable in this day and age. Its a classic running in 1080p, nothing less, nothing more. Seeing the DF video i can understand why this was such a big thing in 1999 and 2001. (Never had a DC nor played this game, but a DC is one of those consoles ill need to have somewhere in life.)
Redneckerz
Banned
You would be more believable if you actually brought in some honest points to discuss. The game is unfinished and buggy?
This is a profoundly negative take to make. Since you didn't watch the DF video, i'd politely suggest to watch this, as the video raises some good points, both positively and negatively.
cypherq
Neo Member
Great post! Shenmue as a game design still holds its own today. Having not played it since... well 2001 it still has pulled me back in today - and this is largely to do with the game design. Its not just about action its a game about exploration and getting absorbed in the world you have been given - a place to experience. Sure its not for everyone... sure the audio and visuals are a bit dated but at its core its still a refreshing game to experience today a shiny light in a seemingly sea of more forumulatic titles.
As for being buggy not encountered any issues on the PC version so far (had around 5 or so hours on it).
BANGS
Banned
Personally, I'm very happy it's just a port and not a full remaster. I love this game the way it is and don't want it changed to appease casuals...
But some of the design choices are strange, and the bugs and glitches are just inexcusable. I agree it's not worth the money until they patch it up, if they ever do...
But some of the design choices are strange, and the bugs and glitches are just inexcusable. I agree it's not worth the money until they patch it up, if they ever do...
ChuckeRearmed
Member
I bet enthusiasts will port it better if provided with sources
cypherq
Neo Member
It is already being modded on the PC so chances are you can have the game pretty much as you want it.
Personally I'm happy sticking with the version just released.
BANGS
Banned
I can't wait for the mods to start rolling in and fixing all these issues, as well as customizing the experience. Looks like my PC version may be the definitive experience, it's a shame my PS4 version probably won't be...
BANGS
Banned
Talking to him when you catch him in Dobuita is hilarious. Dude has some issues and he's basically exercising his demons...
camelCase
Member
Oh you're just trying to get my goat.You would be more believable if you actually brought in some honest points to discuss. The game is unfinished and buggy?
Well I still believe the game is a buggy turd and anyone who, in good faith would espouse the beliefs which you do has his priorities messed up. You had me going for a while, redneckerz.
camelCase
Member
I am having a hard time getting through the game without the use of faqs. It takes me a considerable amount of time to go from person to person because finding the right person to talk to is a crapshoot. I go to aida florist and the girl is only there sometimes, maybe it's an am/pm split.
I'm up to ajiichi chinese restaurant and I've played it for like 3 days.. yea laugh it up
I dig it though
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
Oh hey, awesome to see you posting on GAF again.