Its called "they fly in and the whole of mordor comes and murders them with arrows."
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Should Gollum get the credit for saving Middle Earth?
- Thread starter OriginofHysteria
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Its called "they fly in and the whole of mordor comes and murders them with arrows."
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Pffft. Cover of night. It's a volcano. Drop it in the top and keep flying. Watch all of Mordor implode. Man, if Tolkien's so smart, how come he's dead?
Megalosaro
Banned
Did he repent? I seem to recall reading that Celebrimbor had the same hubris that filled the rest of the house of Feanor. Furthermore, he sold out the Nine and the Seven. I don't recall any repenting, just that he died from his wounds.
Technically, Celembrimbor only created the three elven Rings - behind Sauron/Annatar's back no less. He wanted nothing to do with Annatar's teaching of ring-smithing because he didn't trust him. The other smiths of Eregion, however, did believe his lies - and as such created the other rings of power.
So we can blame those guys
GalacticaN7
Banned
A pawn of Annatar. The poor chap never stood a chance.
So they could leave Mt Doom. The eagles wouldnt have worked without the united armies of men drawing the attentions of the eye and the armies from inside Mordor, which required the rest of the story to happen. They would have all just been murdered.
Just a friendly reminder that we have a wonderful thread for discussing things just like this 
In Dantes' absence it has more or less devolved into me talking to myself, but before that we were having some great discussions.
In Dantes' absence it has more or less devolved into me talking to myself, but before that we were having some great discussions.
I think that poster meant Gollum wasn't granted the luxury of entering the Undying Lands because he died. They didn't have the chance to offer it up to him, if indeed they ever would.
Jack Scofield
Member
Just fly higher than arrows. Easy.
lastplayed
Member
Sauron's AA guns.
I have serious doubts they ever would have. Bare in mind, Sméagol gained the ring only after murdering Déagol for it. That alone is enough of a reason for the Valar to deny Gollum entry into the Undyling Lands.
Yea I don't get why they don't just constantly call the eagles 24/7. In both movies (LOTR & Hobbit) they save the day at the last moment when Gandalf's like oh yea btw i can call eagles with this moth lol!
It's like the Power Rangers and how you know they'll always eventually do the megazord to kill the baddie but they take 20 minutes getting to it.
It's like the Power Rangers and how you know they'll always eventually do the megazord to kill the baddie but they take 20 minutes getting to it.
Why does every single LotR thread descend in BUT THE EAGLES?
If you could fly, would you risk yours and your kind's lives to save some ants?
Eagles are a deus ex machina, but they aren't a plot hole.
(In the same way Gandalf is; Since he could defeat a balrog.. why doesn't he stride into mordor, riveting fire on all that's evil? Long story short, in Tolkien's universe, abnormal power comes with abnormal rules onto when and how it is allowed to use it, rules which are obviously arbitrary, but consistent.)
(I really need to photoshop a sequence of Lidless Eye sees Eagle; Lidless Eye commands Nazgul; Nazgul kills Eagle.)
On thread;
If we're going on a precise "Without his actions, Middle Earth would've been doomed", we could start the chain way higher.
Does frodo's father get credit for saving middle earth, since if he didn't father him, he wouldn't have existed and yadda yadda yadda?
The only real credit in saving middle earth is onto Gandalf, in both planning skills, choosing the right men for the job and grooming them for it. The rest are, more or less, valiantly defenders of middle earth's last hope, all of which were more-or-less conveniently replaceable.
If you could fly, would you risk yours and your kind's lives to save some ants?
Eagles are a deus ex machina, but they aren't a plot hole.
(In the same way Gandalf is; Since he could defeat a balrog.. why doesn't he stride into mordor, riveting fire on all that's evil? Long story short, in Tolkien's universe, abnormal power comes with abnormal rules onto when and how it is allowed to use it, rules which are obviously arbitrary, but consistent.)
(I really need to photoshop a sequence of Lidless Eye sees Eagle; Lidless Eye commands Nazgul; Nazgul kills Eagle.)
On thread;
If we're going on a precise "Without his actions, Middle Earth would've been doomed", we could start the chain way higher.
Does frodo's father get credit for saving middle earth, since if he didn't father him, he wouldn't have existed and yadda yadda yadda?
The only real credit in saving middle earth is onto Gandalf, in both planning skills, choosing the right men for the job and grooming them for it. The rest are, more or less, valiantly defenders of middle earth's last hope, all of which were more-or-less conveniently replaceable.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Because Sauron would spot them from 10 miles away if they were coming by air?
Jack Scofield
Member
The Nazgul didn't get their flying mounts until Arwin drowned their horses. If the Eagles would have left at the beginning there's nothing Sauron could have done except watch helplessly.
^ no! they have always had them! golem even talks about it when they cross the undead wetlands
Troll harder.
Troll harder.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Why was Gandalf in the form of an old man? Because he was only sent to guide the people of middle-earth.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Yeah, if Sauron, one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, had known that there were Eagles within several days/weeks flight of his inhospitable volcano and army stronghold then there's no way he could have done anything.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
I don't think Sauron needs to Nazgul to kill a few eagles.
because then we wouldn't have a story
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
He doesn't intervene beyond creating the smaller gods in the west.
We already addressed that.
Ether_Snake
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No because it was motivated by lust. So really, the only one who deserves praise in this would be LORT-Jesus or some such, whoever he is.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You're assuming that they would just be "slightly" corrupted.
Remember that Saruman was a being just like Gandalf, wise and powerful, and just studying the subject of the Ring and watching Sauron turned him into a corrupt force of evil. Even a Man as good as Aragorn is still just a Man.
It's why Gandalf refused to hold the Ring for Frodo. He knew that even if he had the best intentions and was able to destroy Sauron with it, the Ring is inherently corrupting and would warp him as well.
bobbyrawlins
Banned
Only seen the movies one each, but I swear I remember a scene with gandolf and others riding across a plain being chased by dragon things and a few eagles swooped in and fucked the dragons up. Am I wrong? Why do people think the eagles would be scared of them punk ass dragons?
Yeah but what I mean is that Evil Aragorn isnt as much of a threat to middle earth compared to the return of Sauron. Even that other king who cut off saurons fingers seemed to get killed pretty easily by bandits. And middle earth was probably fine in the short time he owned the ring.
Which goes into my next question... it doesnt seem like the ring made men all that powerful so Im not sure why they saw it as the ultimate weapon, maybe only elves got super powers.
bobbyrawlins
Banned
Nah, I remember frodo being there. I think they were fleeing a castle or fort or something that was under attack from the black robe dragon dudes trying to get the ring from frodo.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Well, that's like saying that this dictator is better than that dictator. And if Aragorn wore the ring, it doesn't mean that he could defeat Sauron - the ring still had to be destroyed for Sauron to be destroyed. And you are right - humans don't become very powerful with wearing the ring. High elves or the wizards would have been able to take Sauron's place in terms of how much of a threat they are.
Also, in the book, Isildur who cut the ring off, could not actually wear the ring without feeling great pain. So, he couldn't really wear it.
Some people have theorized that Aragorn was righteous enough to wield the One Ring long enough to muster a host (potentially the Dúnedain) and go on the offensive against Sauron. The ring's ability to enhance a person's desire to conquer and dominate was directly proportional to their inherent desire to do so. Because Aragorn was so selfless, it's possible that he could have wielded the ring long enough to do good with it. However, Tolkien made it abundantly clear that anyone was subject to corruption from the One Ring if they wore it for long enough. But he never specified just how much time "long enough" was exactly - it likely depended on the person.
Aragorn obviously did not want to take the chance regardless - as he was certain nobody could wield it and use it for anything but evil.
Aragorn obviously did not want to take the chance regardless - as he was certain nobody could wield it and use it for anything but evil.
No, because he never meant to save Middle Earth, it was accidental and he would never have been there were it not for Frodo and the rest.
Megalosaro
Banned
Aragorn did a pretty good job of resisting it as well. In the book, he never once appears to want to Ring.
This is more or less exactly why I was not so up in arms about Jackson's decision to change Faramir's actions in The Two Towers. Instead of shrugging the ring off and letting Frodo and Sam go, he does temporarily give in to his own personal desires and takes them to Osgiliath.
I know this angers a lot of fans of the books because the whole point of Faramir resisting the ring was to show that he was different from Boromir. But from a writing standpoint - as you pointed out - it's slightly inconsistent. In the film, Faramir does indeed get to show his true quality, he just has to try harder. In the end I think it made him more interesting as result.
If I remember right the ring only enhances what is already there. If you can do magic, the ring lets you do better magic. If you can fight well, the ring lets you fight better. If you excel at not being seen (like a hobbit naturally would), then it makes you invisible. It'll just juice what you've already got.
I liked the change as well, it gave him more of a character. If any thing being able to throw it off like he did, made him shine that much brighter in comparison to his brother and father.
Also he wouldn't want to repeat the mistakes of his great-grandfather (or however far back it went). He'd know it's corrupting powers better than most.
This is also just yet another reason why the eagle plan is so inept: the Eagles are some of the more powerful, aloof, and arrogant beings in Middle Earth, and we're just going to trust them with the one ring all the way up to the doors of Mount Doom. Great thinking there. The hardiest of elves and wizards can't even trust themselves to hold the damned thing thousands of miles away from said point, but ego-with-wings over here can do it no sweat.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
yeah sure
Amen
How do you think that would have worked out, exactly?
crimsondynamics
Member
Aren't there more volcanoes in Middle Earth where the ring could have been dropped into?
Is this true? I thought all it did was corrupt and make people invisible.
It had to be destroyed where it was originally forged.
Well if both Galadriel and Gandalf refused to take it, and both the most powerful practitioners of magic on Middle Earth. Hell you see Galadriel doing that power-mad speech in the Fellowship.
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