Nah it does enhance your already apparent abilities. It's how the dwarves were able to resist the corruption magics, mostly, but still use the power to increase their treasure hoards.
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Should Gollum get the credit for saving Middle Earth?
- Thread starter OriginofHysteria
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Nah it does enhance your already apparent abilities. It's how the dwarves were able to resist the corruption magics, mostly, but still use the power to increase their treasure hoards.
I give most of the credit for saving Middle Earth to Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn. In the end their quest would fail if not for Gollum's intervention but they already did way too much than anyone else for the sake of saving the world against very difficult odds and circumstances and displayed courage and wisdom. Gollum's on the other hand actions did not have much with saving the world but instead he was obsessed with taking his precious.
"But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there."
- Gandalf
What would happen if they just threw it in another volcano anyways? How would they retrieve it?
The ring is often described as having a will of it's own and always seeking out it's master, chances are it would have somehow found it's way out of said volcano and - when chance came - ensnare a new bearer
Yep. Remember, Deagol and smeagol came across the ring which was at the bottom of a lake when they were pulled in by a fish.
The ring has a will of its own and wants to be found. It's a magical trinket that naturally finds its way to people through supernatural/magical imprinting of its will.
If you threw the ring into another volcano, that volcano would soon erupt and the ring would fall onto the back of a bird flying through the volcano ash towards civilization. or something like that.
The ring has a will of its own and wants to be found. It's a magical trinket that naturally finds its way to people through supernatural/magical imprinting of its will.
If you threw the ring into another volcano, that volcano would soon erupt and the ring would fall onto the back of a bird flying through the volcano ash towards civilization. or something like that.
The ring is often described as having a will of it's own and always seeking out it's master, chances are it would have somehow found it's way out of said volcano and - when chance came - ensnare a new bearer
Ok well then I'll just send it out on rocket to the sun. Surely with all of their magical powers they've found a way to surpass escape velocity!
eBay Huckster
Member
And then the rocket explodes in the upper atmosphere at such an angle that the explosion somehow winds up flinging the Ring directly into Barad-dûr.
Post of the year.
There have been a ton of reason listed already.
I can't remember how it happened in the book. But Smeagol didn't give up the ring willingly in the end and he took it by murdering Deagol.
As for the eagles. Gandalf didn't want to risk them becoming enthralled by the ring. They are magical creatures just like Gandalf and Sauron. The ring falling to one of them would just have created another Sauron.
I can't remember how it happened in the book. But Smeagol didn't give up the ring willingly in the end and he took it by murdering Deagol.
As for the eagles. Gandalf didn't want to risk them becoming enthralled by the ring. They are magical creatures just like Gandalf and Sauron. The ring falling to one of them would just have created another Sauron.
If gandalf turned evil enough to murder frodo, then what's stopping him from being evil enough to take the ring and use it?
The eagles didn't just fly the rings because it would have been about 5 pages long and fucking shite to read and watch, there.
People who say that, do they actually wish the eagles HAD flown it? How the fuck would there have even been a story then?
People who say that, do they actually wish the eagles HAD flown it? How the fuck would there have even been a story then?
Chuckie
Member
It's all hypothetical though. The actual reason (and answer to your 'question') is because he is dead, not because the Valar deemed him unworthy.
So you can't use that as reasoning if Gollum should be thanked for saving Middle Earth.
RedBaron17
Member
I've only watched the movies, so forgive my ignorance on the subject, but there were five wizards? Whatever happened to the other three? are they even alive?
Also, Gandalf knew about the one ring all along? So everything he did in The Hobbit and in LOTR was all according to keikaku?
Also, Gandalf knew about the one ring all along? So everything he did in The Hobbit and in LOTR was all according to keikaku?
I like this.
Speaking of that, I'm amused it only took 1 post to get the eagles talk going. And at the amount of snark in this thread, it really entertained me in class this morning!
As for the topic itself, I feel Gollum's role is more accidental than anything. He was crucial to destroy the ring, but he was an unwitting agent. It's simply easier to give Frodo (and Sam by proxy) the credits because they were crucial to get it at the crater.
DiscoJer
Member
One of them, Radagast was in the books, but written out of the movies for some reason or another.
And the other two were apparently doing something in the east.
And it's kind of funny, in The Hobbit, the ring wasn't anything but a ring that made people invisible. But he needed a plot device for LOTR, so he decided to change it into something more. And then actually issued a revised version of The Hobbit, with the initial ring scene somewhat different.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
After they arrived, the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando) went into the east and no one heard from them again. Below is what Tolkien had to say about them:
Second Age:
Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.
Third Age:
I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, .... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
As for Radagast, when the elves went looking for him during the War of the Rings, they found his home empty so who knows where he is - fled or killed.
They cannot truly be killed but their fate isn't really known.
And, no, Gandalf didn't know that Bilbo's ring was The One Ring until many years after Frodo got it.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
He didn't change it because he needed a plot device for LotR. He changed it because the publisher wanted a follow-up to The Hobbit but he wanted to write about his greater lore.
Are you implying he had SAM missile batteries installed in Mordor?
The ring is often described as having a will of it's own and always seeking out it's master, chances are it would have somehow found it's way out of said volcano and - when chance came - ensnare a new bearer
Took 2500 years to leave a river. Maybe it would have taken an extra 6 months to make its way out of bottomless pool of lava.
RedBaron17
Member
Cool, its really interesting to see how fleshed-out everything is in Tolkien's universe. Thanks guys. As soon as I get some down time here at work, I'll read up more on the wizards.
Aztechnology
Member
Yes but I'm fairly certain he was slowly regaining his strength, even though his will was tied so strongly to the ring that it would men his death to be destroyed, it also kept him alive and was not the entirety of his essence. Eventually he may have been able to retake a corporeal form and go directly to the ring himself.
Which is why the quest had to take place, Gandalf saw that they may never have another opportunity. Men were slowly being driven back. If they waited, the armies of darkness would continue to corrupt, enslave and build, then there would be absolutely no chance.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Gollum/Smeagol broke even. He retrieved the ring and thus brought it to Sauron's attention once more. But he also inadvertently helped to destroy it. He was a pawn in the end but Gandalf was absolutely right. In wisely advising Frodo that he did not have the right to judge his worth, Gollum was able to play his part in securing Sauron's downfall.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Just think, those eagles could have got the credit instead.
also it wouldn't have worked
peanutbutterlatte
Member
No. It was a moment of incident. Gollum "did his bit", but he had no intention of destroying it at that time. Funnily enough, Tolkien stated that had Sam not been a massive asshole to Gollum/Smeagol, Gollum/Smeagol would have jumped into the fires willingly. Then he'd get the credit.
Red Liquorice
Member
Golum is the hero yes.
Like if Judas hadn't beytrayed Jesus, then he never would've been crucified and thus never resurrected. Ergo, Judas is the true saviour of the world.
Like if Judas hadn't beytrayed Jesus, then he never would've been crucified and thus never resurrected. Ergo, Judas is the true saviour of the world.
Fuckin wizards.
I love how magic is represented in LOTR. Its very subtle and not all CGI in your face.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Really? I've never heard this before. Got a citation for that?
Megalosaro
Banned
The Ring's true power, for those who had a strong enough rule to have mastery over it, is control. You could literally enslave the wills of everyone if you had a dominate enough personality.
The book sort of implies that Frodo may have used the ring to kill Gollum as well. In the book, Frodo invokes the Ring and says something like "If you touch me again, you'll cast yourself into the Fires." which of course Gollum does when he takes the Ring from Frodo. Unlike the movie, Frodo doesn't begin struggling with Gollum. He just kinda collapses after his finger gets bitten off. Gollum starts dancing around and then falls over. It's not entirely an accident though
The book sort of implies that Frodo may have used the ring to kill Gollum as well. In the book, Frodo invokes the Ring and says something like "If you touch me again, you'll cast yourself into the Fires." which of course Gollum does when he takes the Ring from Frodo. Unlike the movie, Frodo doesn't begin struggling with Gollum. He just kinda collapses after his finger gets bitten off. Gollum starts dancing around and then falls over. It's not entirely an accident though
To be fair, when your other moniker is "Gorthaur the Cruel" and you're more or less Satan's right-hand man, you can't exactly blame people for being hesitant when you want to be in charge.
What? Jumped in willingly after the ring? Kill himself along side it?
No way he would have destroyed it willingly.
Marauder Shields
Member
I dunno if he deserves the credit for defeating Sauron, but I do credit him for making the books a lot more interesting for me. In a world that was largely black and white, Gollum was a fascinating character for me. What makes me sad was that there was hope for him. If only Sam wasn't such a jerk to him.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Maybe that was just his way of saying he'd be tough on crime. Or that he would crush poverty, one skull at a time.
Megalosaro
Banned
But... The Wizards didn't arrive until Third Age 1000
Needed some PR work. Still.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I came across it when writing my research project on Tolkien last year, from Tolkien's Letters (No. 246);
On Sam's failure;
On the "What If?";
From Shadowfax's mouth, so to speak.
I had completely forgotten about that bit with Gollum, I think it's about time I gave the letters a read-through again.
TheJollyCorner
Member
laughed hard at this post
Same here. I can't imagine Isildur would be much of a match against Elrond... even with the ring, no?
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I feel like 'da eagles' "argument" is doomed be explained, argued, re-explained, reasoned and repeated in every LOTR discussion until the end of time.
Same here. Really cool find, thanks for the link Master B.
Same here. Really cool find, thanks for the link Master B.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
To answer seriously; racial relations in Middle-Earth are always pretty frayed. Hell, it took Sauron's evil for them to even form an alliance. If he outright murdered the King of Gondor, he would have probably started another war. Nobody seemed to really grasp the importance of the ring except Elrond.
It really does pay to be a Tolkien scholar when approaching his works. This really brings up a new angle that I overlooked.
Some thoughts:
The eagles were the eyes of Manwe and any involvement in the story represents the gods playing an active role. This is not explored in the books or movies, but in the Silmarillion or however you spell it they are basically the servants of Manwe. The gods are pretty shitty if you think about it because Sauron is a demi-god himself and a product of the fuckups of the gods in Valar. And all they do to stop this world-ending threat is send some intentionally gimped demi-gods to the elves and humans to face the most powerful of all the demi-gods and the student of the most powerful of the gods. The gods are spoiled children still bitter about Feanor and the exodus of the elves. How dare they leave paradise and our glory? I am not going to do anything to help them clean up our shit.
No they couldn't launch it into the sun because I believe the sun and moon are just leaves of some ancient trees that were poisoned by an ancestor of the spider that appears in the movies.
The eagles were the eyes of Manwe and any involvement in the story represents the gods playing an active role. This is not explored in the books or movies, but in the Silmarillion or however you spell it they are basically the servants of Manwe. The gods are pretty shitty if you think about it because Sauron is a demi-god himself and a product of the fuckups of the gods in Valar. And all they do to stop this world-ending threat is send some intentionally gimped demi-gods to the elves and humans to face the most powerful of all the demi-gods and the student of the most powerful of the gods. The gods are spoiled children still bitter about Feanor and the exodus of the elves. How dare they leave paradise and our glory? I am not going to do anything to help them clean up our shit.
No they couldn't launch it into the sun because I believe the sun and moon are just leaves of some ancient trees that were poisoned by an ancestor of the spider that appears in the movies.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU
A simple solution to the eagle argument.
A simple solution to the eagle argument.
Can't believe this wasn't linked yet.
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