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[Dr. Zoidberg]

Even though it involves a game, the thread as a whole seems like OT fare.

But whatever, there are all sorts of topics to make political/social issues out of that involve the maker or contributor of a game. Can't wait to start digging up dirt on some of the big names, and then come in here and make a big thread about boycotting for all sorts of stuff. Whaling, dolphins, ecological bad practices, religious preferences, poor treatment of employees or women, etc. Gotta be all sorts of stuff to post about and boycott. People are people, after all, and many of them offend each other.

Of course I'm joking, but I hope it doesn't come to that. All I'm saying is that I don't come to GAF for that sort of thing.

 

[mollipen]

I don't believe in marriage, for men or women. Marriage is a religious concept. It's unneeded and pointless. Civil partnership is fine.

And this is an opinion I can totally respect! Honestly, if it were up to me... I might say that everything in terms of what is legally recognized would be civil unions, and under those guidelines heterosexual and homosexual couples would have equal rights. Then, actual "marriage" would be nothing more than what is recognized by whatever religion you practice, and would strictly be ceremonial.

None of the things about marriage that the government should be concerning itself with should have anything to do with any sort of religious morality. Anything having to do with the religious morality of marriage is things the government shouldn't be concerning itself with.

My question to Me_Marcadet stems from the fact that not once, not once have I ever heard an argument against gay marriage that ever provided a real, legitimate argument for why it shouldn't exist other than "my God doesn't like it"... and, the problem with that is, not everybody has the same God. (Or the same interpretation of the same God.)

 

[elrechazado]

Even though it involves a game, the thread as a whole seems like OT fare.

But whatever, there are all sorts of topics to make political/social issues out of that involve the maker or contributor of a game. Can't wait to start digging up dirt on some of the big names, and then come in here and make a big thread about boycotting for all sorts of stuff. Whaling, dolphins, ecological bad practices, religious preferences, poor treatment of employees or women, etc. Gotta be all sorts of stuff to post about and boycott. People are people, after all, and many of them offend each other.

Of course I'm joking, but I hope it doesn't come to that. All I'm saying is that I don't come to GAF for that sort of thing.

I read in one of these threads that Kotick leads other activision execs on baby seal clubbing getaways. They use guitar hero instruments to do it.

 

[Divvy]

To be fair, "will you civil union me" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

 

[Me_Marcadet]

And the term "citizen" from the times of Ancient Greece until the late 19th century meant "white male." By your argument we shouldn't have allowed blacks or women to become "citizens" because the term citizen "always meant white male."

Limiting someone's rights because you want to maintain the purity of a term always seemed pretty absurd to me. The meaning of words always are changing because language is fluid. The word "daughter" comes from an anglosaxon word meaning "one who milks" and wife from the term "wifan" which means "one who weaves." You might as well argue that women today should no longer be allowed to be called wives unless they weave or female children should have to be called something else unless they milk cows.

It's not the purity of the term but the purity of the political and social system of my country. Like I said, I'm french and I didn't know what was the rights of homosexual in the States. That's why I asked.

Here in France instead of allowing homosexual marriage we rather create something new who would give everyone the same rights.
Marriage is not discriminating because nobody is alowed to marry someone of the same sex.

 

[LocoMrPollock]

This gets said a lot and I'm ultimately confused by it.

Did Chair not pay Card for his work? Did he work for free and force himself in to the project at their expressed disagreement?

He payed them to use their IP to write Empire.

He didn't have anything to do with Shadow Complex and isn't receiving any money from it.

 

[Asmodai]

I read in one of these threads that Kotick leads other activision execs on baby seal clubbing getaways. They use guitar hero instruments to do it.

Until this thread I thought Kotick was officially the Lucifer of Gaming-Age. The amount of nerd rage channeled in his direction is quite amazing.

I wonder what nefarious plan Orson Scott Card has for his Shadow Complex money? I'm sure he'll use it to bribe Supreme Court Justices, right? :lol

 

[Ninja Moomin]

People give tithes to religions all the time that have a far more direct role than a videogame ever would. Go tell religious fundamentalists to stop funding political initiatives that you disagree with.

Oh, and bolding your opinions doesn't make them more legitimate. If anything it makes you look like an idiot. Why, I would go so far as to say that your use of bolding "negatively impacts my life by annoying me". :lol

:lol

poor reasoning and insults....?

do you know irony?

 

[Ninja Moomin]

So you don't believe in any organized political activity that could affect the life of another person? Your beef should be with the constitution of the state of california, which allows referenda through which the people can change the law.

i'll say it again... if this were someone who would take your civil liberties away would you be defending him?

 

[EvilMario]

Every game you've played since development studios crept to over 10 people have probably had homophobes, racist, bat shit insane right wingers, left wingers, and everything inbetween. If something specifically in the game went too far, or was just not right.. okay.. but one dude, who happens to be a nut ball. Nah.

 

[elrechazado]

Until this thread I thought Kotick was officially the Lucifer of Gaming-Age. The amount of nerd rage channeled in his direction is quite amazing.

I wonder what nefarious plan Orson Scott Card has for his Shadow Complex money? I'm sure he'll use it to bribe Supreme Court Justices, right? :lol

I'm sure that according to gaf the worst thing OSC could do with his homophobia money would be to fund the development of Guitar Hero 7.

 

[Crash Station]

Don't know if it's been said, but hasn't the sanctity of marriage kind of been ruined when divorce was introduced (til death do you part?)

 

[EmCeeGramr]

He payed them to use their IP to write Empire.

He didn't have anything to do with Shadow Complex and isn't receiving any money from it.

Wrong. Card was contacted by the Mustard brothers to write the world of the game, and to create a franchise, including the novel which came out two years ago.

 

[Asmodai]

:lol

poor reasoning and insults....?

do you know irony?

:lol I have the pleasure of knowing "irony". And I'm also acquainted with "grammar." Apparently you haven't "met" either of them.

Of course, anyone who disagrees with you has poor reasoning, right? If they used good reasoning, they would invariably arrive at the same conclusion you did.

 

[Ramenman]

Because for me and the law of my country, the marriage is meant to be betwin a woman and a man.
I don't understand why people want homosexual marriage because it's no more a marriage

Well actually the french civil code doesn't say shit about the respective sexes of the two persons engaging in marriage. You could argue that it's only because it was considered obvious under Napoleon that a man would only marry a woman, but still the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman is only a social or religious idea.

Which you're free to have, of course

 

[elrechazado]

i'll say it again... if this were someone who would take your civil liberties away would you be defending him?

Yes, because that is the quintessential nature of american freedoms and political thought. It's one of the reasons I am a member of the ACLU. However, reasonable people can and do (although apparently not in this thread) disagree with the proposition posited by your statement, that civil liberties have in fact been taken away. I don't have the inclination to discuss that ad nauseum here, and am fully aware that this comment will incite all sorts of wonderful invective and vitriol thrown at me, further proving my point about the free exchange of ideas, and how some people only want it when they agree with it.

 

[RiZ III]

:lol :lol Most ridiculous thread evar

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Yes, because that is the quintessential nature of american freedoms and political thought.

To defend his right to have that opinion, not defense of the opinion itself.

 

[Dabookerman]

I really don't know what to say. I think the game is fantastic, and I doubt the people who do boycott the game won't hurt this Card character one bit. It's fine if you do, it's your choice.
I personally find the business of Same Sex marriage so trivial, but on the same level of marriage full stop. My personal view is, if two people love each other or whatever, having some title or not shouldn't change that.
Of course this is all for equal rights and stuff, and really I haven't been following the topic at all, and now I feel like I'm babbling because I don't know what to say in these kinds of situation.

But the game is great.

 

[LocoMrPollock]

Wrong. Card was contacted by the Mustard brothers to write the world of the game, and to create a franchise, including the novel which came out two years ago.

I'm not sure of the details. But I'm pretty sure he didn't work on Shadow Complex in any capacity. Peter David wrote the script for the game, but the game was based in Empire's Universe.

I don't see how he could collect any money off of it, unless it was in the original deal they made.


https://twitter.com/ChAIRGAMES/status/3411449266

 

[TheDrowningMan]

I bought the game yesterday, before seeing this thread but after reading of Card's involvement. I weighed it up and decided to give it a shot (I also bought Monkey Island at the same time...ha!) due to him being only one cog in the wheel.

However, I didn't know that Chair Entertainment were actively involved in the creation of the Empire universe. You don't help to create a wacky, far-right looniverse if you're not a wacky, far-right kook to some extent. At the very least it's clear to all but the most naive / in denial that people high-up at Chair share some questionable views with their good friend Card. Had I known that beforehand, it probably would've sent my points hurtling towards 'Splosion Man last night. But it's a tough one because at the end of the day, we all buy things sourced from people of questionable morales - everyone who boycotts something is "guilty" of selective boycotting, but that doesn't mean it's a pointless act. Sometimes something will inspire you to take a stand, sometimes things won't. That's life, you can't make a difference in every single way.

Pretty good game though - not as remarkable as some reviewers have been falling over themselves to declare it (but what do you expect...) and it lacks that certain something that similar Nintendo games possess, but it's a good, solid 7/8 out of 10 offering all the same. Certainly one of the better downloadable titles and purely as a game, without considering the baggage, a laudable effort.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

Ya know I'm glad the mods didnt lock this thread now. I've learned a lot about the gaffer's posting in here today. Some very poorly thought out posts on both sides of the argument, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[elrechazado]

To defend his right to have that opinion, not defense of the opinion itself.

Apparently we interpret the post to which I was replying differently.

 

[nolookjones]

give me a break...OSC is entitled to his own opinion just like anybody else is...

 

[Coins]

give me a break...OSC is entitled to his own opinion just like anybody else is...

You should read the thread maybe.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

I hope we all here are boycotting Walmart, Target, Nike and Adidas. Unless we enjoy positively reinforcing and funding sweatshops. Boycott what you want but don't single out one game and act self-righteous about one thing and act as if you're not a hyprocrite on the other. It's ridiculous to act as if shitty people aren't profiting from each purchase you make and this case is the one to take a stand because you recognize the guy's name, then not even give it a second thought in every other purchase because you don't know a contributor's financial agenda.

 

[elrechazado]

You don't help to create a wacky, far-right looniverse if you're not a wacky, far-right kook to some extent.

That George Orwell sure was a totalitarian thought police loving freak, wasn't he?

And Aldus Huxley, don't get me started on that guy...

 

[Josh7289]

I personally boycott the Dragon Quest series because the composer, Koichi Sugiyama, denies the Japanese Empire's guilt in the Nanking Massacre, and he publicly advertises/advocates his position.

After reading all thirteen pages of the thread, here's an example of something I was thinking of along side many of the stances on the subject; would/should a situation like this necessarily stop at Card alone? Sure, the main difference here is that Card actually influences the situation at hand on a daily basis, but this perspective of video game purchases is both new to me and actually interests me (I have never really put much of any thought into boycotting a video game before hand, as I usually try to keep my personal beliefs pretty divorced from gaming entertainment and their leaders).

As for the debate at hand, I'm personally leaning more at a utilitarian approach. It would be different if Card had the greatest amount of involvement in the game and actually used it as a means to not only propagate his anti-gay philosophy, but also use it as a primary money maker. But it's not, and his involvement really seems to be more second-hand at this point (as he didn't even write the script). We can speculate as to whether or not the Chair employees share the same views, but I have seen nothing that leads to a conclusive statement on the matter. And depriving an entire team of individuals who put more sweat and blood into it than Card ever did just due to his actions does not sit that well with me.

I think it essentially comes down to two things:

1) How much time/money the person at hand puts towards their cause,

and

2) How much of a stake that person has in the game in question (in other words, how much money they'll make from it).

If I can say that a person both puts a lot of time/money into their cause and has a decent stake in the game (or movie or whatever), that's where I draw the line and boycott the game (or as others said, buy the game if you like it but also put some money towards a campaign that's fighting against the campaign of the person you don't like).

As for Koichi Sugiyama, I know that he and many other very influential people in Japan have tried to put ads in American newspapers advertising their dumb beliefs about the Nanking Massacre, so he obviously fulfills requirement 1 above. As for requirement 2, he is the composer of the ultra popular Dragon Quest series, so he easily has a huge stake in the game series and gets a lot of money from it. Therefore, I boycott Dragon Quest games.

As for Orson Scott Card, from reading this thread, he apparently fulfills requirement 1, but probably not requirement 2, so I wouldn't recommend outright boycotting Shadow Complex, but the suggestion to buy the game if you like it and also put some money towards a gay charity or gay rights group is probably the best idea.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

That George Orwell sure was a totalitarian thought police loving freak, wasn't he?

And Aldus Huxley, don't get me started on that guy...

The difference being, those universes were clearly against such worlds, as opposed to the world of Empire, which has been criticized as being conspicuously in support of far-right ideals.

 

[Divvy]

I hope we all here are boycotting Walmart, Target, Nike and Adidas. Unless we enjoy positively reinforcing and funding sweatshops. Boycott what you want but don't single out one game and act self-righteous about one thing and act as if you're not a hyprocrite on the other. It's ridiculous to act as if shitty people aren't profiting from each purchase you make and this case is the one to take a stand because you recognize the guy's name, then not even give it a second thought in every other purchase because you don't know a contributor's financial agenda.

It's also ridiculous to suggest that people can't choose their battles. According to you, unless you're fighting everything, you're not allowed to fight anything.

 

[ArjanN]

Of all the outrageous things said on both sides this is the worst.

:lol :lol :lol

I liked Ender's game a lot, but if you look at it knowing the opions the author you tend to notice a bunch of weird fascist undertones. Even more so in his later work.

I doubt OSC really had anything to do with Shadow Complex, though. It's probably like the Tom Clancy games, where he looks at his bank statement and sees another game with his name on the box has been released.

 

[wolfmat]

Well, sure, but who doesn't like Stanislaw Lem?

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

It's also ridiculous to suggest that people can't choose their battles. According to you, unless you're fighting everything, you're not allowed to fight anything.

You can fight whatever you want, I don't care. Doesn't mean you're not a passionate hypocrite. Make your stand on a $15 game because of a single person.

 

[elrechazado]

I liked Ender's game a lot, but if you look at it knowing the opions the author you tend to notice a bunch of weird fascist undertones. Even more so in his later work.

I just thought the stories were shit and the narrative of the first book was completely betrayed by the subsequent books of the series. Really only though 2-3 of his works have been any good. Compare that with Heinlen or Asimov or Bradbury or any dozen others...

 

[Unregistered007]

WTF!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Asmodai]

The difference being, those universes were clearly against such worlds, as opposed to the world of Empire, which has been criticized as being conspicuously in support of far-right ideals.

I've read about plenty of dystopian settings created by left leaning authors, but never by a right wing irrational FOX news type.

Are these "Empire" novels as horrible as Ender's Game? If so I won't bother checking them out.

Also, have you read "Children of Men?" It's the most blatant right wing propaganda I've ever seen in a novel. Somewhat amusing to read, just to see how the right wing hardliners really think everything works.

 

[elrechazado]

WTF!!!!!!!!!!

I think the one in the middle is Orson Scott Card

 

[Chrange]

So why did you make it? :lol

I didn't. I'm questioning the rationality of those that did - multiple times in this thread.

 

[elrechazado]

I've read about plenty of dystopian settings created by left leaning authors, but never by a right wing irrational FOX news type.

Are these "Empire" novels as horrible as Ender's Game? If so I won't bother checking them out.

Also, have you read "Children of Men?" It's the most blatant right wing propaganda I've ever seen in a novel. Somewhat amusing to read, just to see how the right wing hardliners really think everything works.

Your test seems to be that ideology of one kind is normal and the other is anathema. That seems to say more about your personal ideology than it does about the state of science fiction.

 

[woodypop]

I hope we all here are boycotting Walmart, Target, Nike and Adidas. Unless we enjoy positively reinforcing and funding sweatshops. Boycott what you want but don't single out one game and act self-righteous about one thing and act as if you're not a hyprocrite on the other. It's ridiculous to act as if shitty people aren't profiting from each purchase you make and this case is the one to take a stand because you recognize the guy's name, then not even give it a second thought in every other purchase because you don't know a contributor's financial agenda.

It's also ridiculous to suggest that people can't choose their battles. According to you, unless you're fighting everything, you're not allowed to fight anything.

No shit. 21 pages in and this is still brought up, over and over.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

No shit. 21 pages in and this is still brought up, over and over.

to be fair, I didn't read them and just wanted to say the one thing. D:

 

[K.Sabot]

Don't make my video games into politics.

Same went for Resident Evil 5, don't make my video games into a civil rights issue.

 

[corrosivefrost]

Wasn't this locked before?

What happened that it's now again open?

 

[Ulairi]

I think as soon as we try to punish everyone we disagree with, the ability for an actual dialog to take places goes away. No longer do we agree to disagree, if someone disagrees with me they are not just wrong, but they are evil and a hate monger. I'm pro-gay marriage only because marriage is good for a stable society. There is a high rate of STDs in the gay community and that does harm to a lot of people. Promoting stable relationships (not for the current generation of gay people) but for the long term view of gay people is good. If they see their relationships in the prism that they should meet someone, get married have a family, I hope that the rate of people killing themselves will go down. I disagree with Card. But, I'm not going to punish someone I disagree with. being against gay marriage isn't the same as being in the KKK. If Card was caught funding a group that wanted to do physical harm to gay people that would be one thing. But, not being in favour of gay marriage doesn't make someone evil and worthy of our scorn. It's a disagreement but something that can be discussed and should be debated.

I do not like with the mass adoption of the internet the fact that it is so easy for people to get into an echo chamber. We talk to people who agree with us, we scorn people that disagree with us and then talk about how much better and more "progressive" we are than them. Want to know why it's so loud in political discussions? Because of that very reason. No longer can we agree to disagree.

 

[woodypop]

to be fair, I didn't read them and just wanted to say the one thing. D:

Which was ridiculous and pointless, because according to that logic, everyone is a hypocrite.

 

[Odrion]

why do we discuss politics in a gaming forum

the average age here is like fourteen or something

 

[Ignignort]

The game is excellent, you guys should talk more about the actual game rather than the world it is based on. It's obvious a lot of work has been put into this title and it's alot better than some of the rubbish that ends up at retail. We should want MORE games like this.

 

[ManDudeChild]

I think as soon as we try to punish everyone we disagree with, the ability for an actual dialog to take places goes away. No longer do we agree to disagree, if someone disagrees with me they are not just wrong, but they are evil and a hate monger. I'm pro-gay marriage only because marriage is good for a stable society. There is a high rate of STDs in the gay community and that does harm to a lot of people. Promoting stable relationships (not for the current generation of gay people) but for the long term view of gay people is good. If they see their relationships in the prism that they should meet someone, get married have a family, I hope that the rate of people killing themselves will go down. I disagree with Card. But, I'm not going to punish someone I disagree with. being against gay marriage isn't the same as being in the KKK. If Card was caught funding a group that wanted to do physical harm to gay people that would be one thing. But, not being in favour of gay marriage doesn't make someone evil and worthy of our scorn. It's a disagreement but something that can be discussed and should be debated.

I do not like with the mass adoption of the internet the fact that it is so easy for people to get into an echo chamber. We talk to people who agree with us, we scorn people that disagree with us and then talk about how much better and more "progressive" we are than them. Want to know why it's so loud in political discussions? Because of that very reason. No longer can we agree to disagree.

Sadly your words won't be heard, but very well said

 

[elrechazado]

Which was ridiculous and pointless, because according to that logic, everyone is a hypocrite.

Most people are, and tend to make themselves feel better about it by pointing out the hypocrisy of others.

 

[Asmodai]

Your test seems to be that ideology of one kind is normal and the other is anathema. That seems to say more about your personal ideology than it does about the state of science fiction.

You get no cookies for guessing which ideology I lean closer to :lol

There are fanatics and irrational people on both sides of the political spectrum. That much is obvious. But the Republicans in the United States have just gone batshit insane since Obama was elected. Half the things they say are objectively false. Any party that lets a fool like Sarah Palin be their standard bearer has clearly lost the pulse of the average person in the US.

Of course I live in Canada, where politics in general are much more to the left.