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[mollipen]

You're starting to kinda creep me out, gaming pal. You went pretty far back in the thread, ignored the persons post I was agreeing with and typed that big old douche bag reply just to respond to my comment that went un-noticed? Yikes.

The guy you replied to in that post wasn't even worth replying to so far as I'm concerned. I'm just bothered by the opinions some have (you for example, at least from the posts I remember you making in this thread) that threads like this aren't worth having and should be closed.

 

[mysticwhip]

Edit : my bad, didn't mean to start anything back up.

 

[Divvy]

I f Hitler made a kick-ass game that didn't have any anti-Semitic views in it, but the game's profit goes to Hitler, I would buy it.

Pretty sure this debate was already godwinned pages ago. Nice try though.

 

[kamorra]

I f Hitler made a kick-ass game that didn't have any anti-Semitic views in it, but the game's profit goes to Hitler, I would buy it.

But Hitler is retired.

 

[soxfanmcgee]

Yeah, dude, Prop 8 pissed the fuck out of me -- but we don't have very many game dev. places in Utah, and I personally feel as though... hell, probably everyone at Chair has read the Ender series, so as not to piss off the established author. But can we agree that most certainly not everyone at Chair, Epic, or MS (the three major companies which benefit from this) agree with Card's ridiculous, extremist perspective on homosexuals? I think we can.

I'm begging everyone in this thread to consider Chair before you think about not buying this product because of Card. 1 is a douche. The other 30-something... not so much, yes?

I understand your point and agree to a point, but really we are only a few thousand people on a message board and only few of those may not buy the game because of this information. Really they are making most of there money off of random people who don't even know who Orson Scott Card really is. I mean battlefield sold like half a million and I don't think there are that many people on Gaf.

 

[Tain]

shidoshi's right pretty often in this thread.

And locking down this thread helps admit that GAF's gaming discussion board is nothing more than people posting empty, stupid, worthless fucking praise posts about any little crumb of the industry they can pile upon. Not good.

 

[Dipper145]

There is at least 1 anti-gay marriage person in every company so I think we should boycott the whole games industry as well as every other product that was ever made. Who's with me?

 

[BravoSuperStar]

The guy you replied to in that post wasn't even worth replying to so far as I'm concerned. I'm just bothered by the opinions some have (you for example, at least from the posts I remember you making in this thread) that threads like this aren't worth having and should be closed.

Fair enough. Personally, I don't see how this thread has contributed to the board in a positive way, at least the gaming side. I specify that because even though the product happens to be a video game, the focus of the thread is certainly not gaming related. Also, I realize the best course of action is just to avoid the thread altogether, so unless I have something to say directly involving the subject I'll just stop posting in it.

 

[EternalGamer]

I think there is some good discussion in this thread but I do wish we could get past two obvious points:

1) Boycotting products is not the same as promoting censorship or violating freedom of speech. There is a very important distinction we make: freedom of speech means freedom from GOVERNMENT intervention. It doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of what you say. If words didn't have consequences, then they also would have no meaning. Just because the marketplace or particular people in it decide not to support something, that is not violating anyone's freedom. They have the freedom to put those ideas out there and others have the freedom to react to those ideas by not supporting the ideas, the material they are associated with, or the person responsible for them.


2) Choosing not to purchase a product (or "boycotting it) isn't always necessarily about the effectiveness of the boycott. It can simply be a matter of principle. Just because someone's decision to not buy a product won't change its success or failure, that doesn't mean their decision can't still have PERSONAL VALUE to them.

I would like to see someone do an interview with the heads at Chair about this to help clairify somethings though. Until then, all we can really do is speculate about the actual associations. My guess, though, is that they would try their best to hedge on discussing their own political views or those of Card.

 

[Slavik81]

No, he's only remotely related to Shadow Complex, and even if he wasn't, he isn't doing anything immoral. He finances his side of a civil debate. It's not like he's buying explosives with the money.

Spoiler

And no, I don't agree with his point of view.

If the gay marriage debate were decided based on which side had the most money, rather than which side had the better argument, I'd say democracy is broken.

 

[EternalGamer]

shidoshi's right pretty often in this thread.

And locking down this thread helps admit that GAF's gaming discussion board is nothing more than people posting empty, stupid, worthless fucking praise posts about any little crumb of the industry they can pile upon. Not good.

I will admit to frequently badmouthing GAF in the past, but I have been impressed with the quality of some of the discussion in this thread. It certainly demonstrates that there are a lot of intelligent posters on this forum even if they rarely have much to contribute to all the "OMG!" threads.

 

[mysticwhip]

Pretty sure this debate was already godwinned pages ago. Nice try though.

my bad, didn't read all the pages, I wasn't trying to start up anything, sorry.

 

[methos75]

I could care less what Card thinks, it doesn't impact me, a good game is just that. a good game. most of my buds are Anti-gay, should I stop hanging out with them and having fun, the answer is no.

 

[ArjanN]

If the gay marriage debate were decided based on which side had the most money, rather than which side had the better argument, I'd say democracy is broken.

Democracy is pretty broken.

The side with the most money can lobby the most, which definately influences decisions.

 

[EternalGamer]

Yeah, dude, Prop 8 pissed the fuck out of me -- but we don't have very many game dev. places in Utah

Wait, so Chair is located in Utah? Now I don't have anything against Utah, and I know that all these elements are circumstantial, but the fact that they are in the Mormon capital of the U.S. (Mormons being the biggest proponents of Prop 8) and have affiliated with Card on THREE of the FOUR games they have announced/worked on (Advent Rising, Shadow Complex and Ender's Game), lead to a pretty big series of coincidences if we are to believe that they have no political association with Card's views.

 

[Asmodai]

Well now I have to buy this, to help counter any possible boycott .

Sounds like a cool game anyhow.

Since this boycott has resulted in absolutely no lost sales, if you bought the game, this thread would have resulted in a positive net sale, becoming one of the dreaded theoretical "reverse boycotts!" At that point micro black holes would appear and reality would implode. Thanks a lot!

Democracy is pretty broken.

The side with the most money can lobby the most, which definately influences decisions.

Money has played a huge role in elections since the Romans were doing it. It's sometimes amusing to read the ancient histories and see how similar their elections were to our own in that respect and many others.

However, they aren't the only factor.

Oh, and the democracy in the United States is most certainly legitimate, even if it doesn't achieve the results you want. Noone said democracy was perfect. Most people are politically ignorant, and always have been.

 

[Snapshot King]

Jumping in this thread late, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else.

This is ridiculous. The games fantastic. If it truly bothers you so much that a very small amount of royalty money will go towards this guy, then fine, you don't get it. Someone else around here suggested that if you did buy the game, you'd then be morally obligated to donate to a gay friendly charity or some such thing.

You kidding me? It's a game. It's a book. I don't care if the entire development team eats live screaming babies torn from the womb for breakfast and lunch (dinner is puppies). The games great, great, I bought it. Done, end of story.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

most of my buds are Anti-gay, should I stop hanging out with them and having fun, the answer is no.

...this would stop me from hanging out with people, yes.

I'd probably stop dating someone who is anti-semitic, too. I'm not sure that makes me the weird one here.

 

[kylej]

most of my buds are Anti-gay, should I stop hanging out with them and having fun

Yes.

 

[EternalGamer]

You kidding me? It's a game. It's a book. I don't care if the entire development team eats live screaming babies torn from the womb for breakfast and lunch (dinner is puppies). The games great, great, I bought it. Done, end of story.

That's a pretty hedonistic view you seem to be promoting there. So as long as you find something entertaining that is all that ever matters? Why is being entertained your highest priority?

 

[methos75]

...this would stop me from hanging out with people, yes.

I'd probably stop dating someone who is anti-semitic, too. I'm not sure that makes me the weird one here.

Maybe it would you, but I myself am not gay nor do I even know anyone who is, so for me its a mote point and their opinions because of those facts do not bother me.

 

[woodypop]

I could care less what Card thinks, it doesn't impact me, a good game is just that. a good game. most of my buds are Anti-gay, should I stop hanging out with them and having fun, the answer is no.

The more interesting questions are

Should you do something?

Should you do nothing?

And of course, no one can answer them but you.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Maybe it would you, but I myself am not gay nor do I even know anyone who is, so for me its a mote point and their opinions because of those facts do not bother me.

So, to take this a bit further, if you didn't know any blacks or jews, how would their views on that bother you, if at all?

 

[Warm Machine]

I think it should be boycotted because enemies can shoot you from offscreen. Cardinal sidescrolling game mistake there.

 

[Spoo]

Wait, so Chair is located in Utah? Now I don't have anything against Utah, and I know that all these elements are circumstantial, but the fact that they are in the Mormon capital of the U.S. (Mormons being the biggest proponents of Prop 8) and have affiliated with Card on THREE of the FOUR games they have announced/worked on (Advent Rising, Shadow Complex and Ender's Game), lead to a pretty big series of coincidences if we are to believe that they have no political association with Card's views.

Yeah, well, Card has a following of sorts in Utah. Want to know why? It's not because he hates gays. It's because he's a decent author, and if you think otherwise you plainly have not read his work. I don't agree with his philosophy on life, but that sure as hell doesn't mean I can't enjoy his work. Hmm, I guess that falls in the realm of videogames, does it not?

So what? He's "affiliated" with Chair. It doesn't mean that Chair "feels" the way he does about gays, or politics, or... God, or anything. It's no coincedence at all that he's working with Chair! Who wouldn't? Chair is a ridiculously talented company, and Card is a talented author. It's a match made in heaven, with the assumption that we disregard Card's feelings towards politics, gays, what-have-you.

For Christ's sake people; if you'd actually shell out the 15 bucks that Shadow Complex costs, you might find that the game has little or nothing to do with contemporary politics. In fact, the primary reason its gotten lower than expected reviews is because it holds too much in common with Metroid. I guess, Metroid must hate Gays, cuz that's the reaction I'm seeing here

At least download the trial, and then make a decision. Don't get your panties in a bunch, here.

 

[methos75]

So, to take this a bit further, if you didn't know any blacks or jews, how would their views on that bother you, if at all?

Well my buds are Black and Jewish, so that isn't an issue really. But that said, I have been around both groups and have had friends and co-workers from both racial groups, so yay it would bother me. But I have never known anyone Gay in my life, so Heh, what can I say.

 

[Haunted]

Has Chair made a public announcement to clarify how they stand regarding Card's views on these issues or something? Because I'm not really sure I see the connection between that bigot and the company (and Shadow Complex in particular) - maybe I haven't read the relevant links/reporting on this?

I already bought the game, but I'll think twice about supporting Chair's games in the future if the company really shares and supports the anti-gay stance of that Card guy.

 

[ZZMitch]

Yes.

No.

No one should let someone's political views get in the way of a friendship.

 

[Green Mamba]

When it comes to picking battles it seems they always ends up being the easiest battles.

 

[Tobor]

Says the guy who seems to make it his personal mission to defend every single act of anti-consumer douchery Apple is charged with on this forum.

What kind of bullshit statement is this? Does Orson Scott Card design iPod's? No? Then STFU and stay on topic.

 

[Haunted]

No.

No one should let someone's political views get in the way of a friendship.

I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere.

I couldn't bear to be friends with a neo-nazi for example.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

No.

No one should let someone's political views get in the way of a friendship.

Tort reform is a political issue.

Being anti-gay is something else.

 

[Divvy]

Has Chair made a public announcement to clarify how they stand regarding Card's views on these issues or something? Because I'm not really sure I see the connection between that bigot and the company - maybe I haven't read the relevant links/reporting on this.

I already bought the game, but I'll think twice about supporting Chair's games in the future if the company really shares and supports the anti-gay stance of that Card guy.

Chair Entertainment used to be GlyphX games. They worked with Card on Advent Rising. As Chair, they created the Empire universe and hired Card to write novels based in it. They also hired Card to help write for Shadow Complex, a prequel to Card's novel Empire. They are also collaborating on an Ender's Game game as well at the moment.

I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere.

I couldn't bear to be friends with a neo-nazi for example.

That sounds like a good idea for a sitcom.

 

[DisenLedZep]

I'm not going to read 26 pages...
Just go to this guy house and complain, not buying the game will not help your cause more than complaining

 

[Odrion]

2) Choosing not to purchase a product (or "boycotting it) isn't always necessarily about the effectiveness of the boycott. It can simply be a matter of principle. Just because someone's decision to not buy a product won't change its success or failure, that doesn't mean their decision can't still have PERSONAL VALUE to them.

Yeah but what are your principles if not buying a XBLA game is the the extent of your contribution to a better world?

 

[Haunted]

Chair Entertainment used to be GlyphX games. They worked with Card on Advent Rising. As Chair, they created the Empire universe and hired Card to write novels based in it. They also hired Card to help write for Shadow Complex, a prequel to Card's novel Empire. They are also collaborating on an Ender's Game game as well at the moment.

Ok. So how did the bigoted views of that Card guy influence this Empire universe (I literally know nothing about it)?


If it's merely a business connection between the company and the guy, it's kinda hard for me to get outraged without any substantial evidence for Chair to really share and support his views. Could be that they just like the guy's writing style and work with him on a professional level or something. Oh fuck, I dunno what I'm even arguing/thinking/writing here - guilty until proven innocent?

That sounds like a good idea for a sitcom.

Okay, here's the catch - I'm German

Spoiler

and encountered enough of those fuckers in real life.

*cue laugh track*

 

[Slavik81]

Tort reform is a political issue.
Being anti-gay is something else.

Many political issues are debates over morality. The most divisive ones generally are.

 

[Divvy]

Ok. So how did the bigoted views of that Card guy influence this Empire universe (I literally know nothing about it)?


If it's merely a business connection between the company and the guy, it's kinda hard for me to get outraged without any substantial evidence for Chair to really share and support his views. Could be that they just like the guy's writing style and work with him on a professional level or something. Oh fuck, I dunno what I'm even arguing/thinking/writing here - guilty until proven innocent?

Well they created the Empire universe and hired Card to write novels for it. If they didn't support the views he expresses then they certainly wouldn't have given him free reign to write whatever he wants with their property, especially with his very public opinions. At least that's what I think.

Okay, here's the catch - I'm German and encountered enough of those fuckers in real life.

*cue laugh track*

Boo, I hate laugh tracks

 

[RadarScope1]

I dig this thread. To those posters who say it's dumb or pointless or worse, why are you on a gaming forum? This is the most active gaming forum on the entire planet (quite literally), you expect every little thing to be discussed in detail. Further, this is no small detail when you think about it. As Chris Remo and duckroll have said so well, it comes down to the fact that the guy is one of the THE major players with money and power in this debate, not just a man with an opinion, and it truly calls into question what Chair was thinking.

I really hope Chair is reading this. I hope Don Mustard considers saying something. I hope they give us some insight into their intentions, because when I heard about who OSC is (and I didn't know much until this game), I found it really hard to believe they would want to work with him -- I don't give a shit how many sci-fi awards this guy has won.

Personally, I will be buying the game. I am a huge Super Metroid fan, and while some were sleeping on SC, I have been hyped from the moment I saw it. For me, the announcement of this game right up there with the Natal unveiling at E3.

In these situations, I always try to rely on some objective reasoning. What will not buying the game do? Maybe give a little peace of mind, but really there's no guarantee it's going to make a difference when it comes to gay rights (which I wholeheartedly support). Also, the game's story seems inconsequential, and has no direct relation to the issue.

What will buying the game do? It WILL guarantee that a game of this kind, which I would love to see more of, will be supported and likely see a sequel, or even better, send the message to Nintendo or Konami that full console versions of 2D Metriod or Castlevania is worth the investment. This is the bigger vote, the greater weight. I think the idea of donating $15 to a gay rights group is a good one - besides, that kind of activity is much more meaningful on the whole than boycotting an indirectly related product. Life is about what you do, not what you don't do.

One more thing: to the handful of people who are calling marriage a "title" or a "piece of paper" -- you have every right to believe this. But, you're not married are you? Anyone who is married to the love of their life will tell you IT AIN'T NO PIECE OF PAPER. It's a huge commitment that changes lives and, oh by the way, comes with hundreds of legal rights in our society. Those are the reasons people are fighting for gay marriage rights. My own experience being married is the reason I support them.

 

[Odrion]

Not being friends with people due to ideologies that they barely support is a little zealous.

I have a lot of friends around the Waukesha area (rich suburban types) who all have social conservative viewpoints, I tolerate it and we even debate with each other.

If one of them did something such as attend an anti-gay rally, I still try to argue about it before I avoid them.

 

[Keikoku]

I dig this thread. To those posters who say it's dumb or pointless or worse, why are you on a gaming forum? This is the most active gaming forum on the entire planet (quite literally), you expect every little thing to be discussed in detail. Further, this is no small detail when you think about it. As Chris Remo and duckroll have said so well, it comes down to the fact that the guy is one of the THE major players with money and power in this debate, not just a man with an opinion, and it truly calls into question what Chair was thinking.

I really hope Chair is reading this. I hope Don Mustard considers saying something. I hope they give us some insight into their intentions, because when I heard about who OSC is (and I didn't know much until this game), I found it really hard to believe they would want to work with him -- I don't give a shit how many sci-fi awards this guy has won.

Personally, I will be buying the game. I am a huge Super Metroid fan, and while some were sleeping on SC, I have been hyped from the moment I saw it. For me, the announcement of this game right up there with the Natal unveiling at E3.

In these situations, I always try to rely on some objective reasoning. What will not buying the game do? Maybe give a little peace of mind, but really there's no guarantee it's going to make a difference when it comes to gay rights (which I wholeheartedly support). Also, the game's story seems inconsequential, and has no direct relation to the issue.

What will buying the game do? It WILL guarantee that a game of this kind, which I would love to see more of, will be supported and likely see a sequel, or even better, send the message to Nintendo or Konami that full console versions of 2D Metriod or Castlevania is worth the investment. This is the bigger vote, the greater weight. I think the idea of donating $15 to a gay rights group is a good one - besides, that kind of activity is much more meaningful on the whole than boycotting an indirectly related product. Life is about what you do, not what you don't do.

One more thing: to the handful of people who are calling marriage a "title" or a "piece of paper" -- you have every right to believe this. But, you're not married are you? Anyone who is married to the love of their life will tell you IT AIN'T NO PIECE OF PAPER. It's a huge commitment that changes lives and, oh by the way, comes with hundreds of legal rights in our society. Those are the reasons people are fighting for gay marriage rights. My own experience being married is the reason I support them.

This x1000.

 

[soldat7]

I'm guessing that Chair went to Card because he's a prominent sci-fi author and they had worked with him previously on Advent Rising. I doubt it was because of his political or moral views.

On another note, more and more heterosexual couples are choosing NOT to get married and divorce rates are rising, yet homosexual couples WANT marriage? Surely a middle ground exists that would make everyone happy, right?

 

[Christopher]

I play games for games I really don't care about someone's personal preference...

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm guessing that Chair went to Card because he's a prominent sci-fi author and they had worked with him previously on Advent Rising. I doubt it was because of his political or moral views.

On another note, more and more heterosexual couples are choosing NOT to get married and divorce rates are rising, yet homosexual couples WANT marriage? Surely a middle ground exists that would make everyone happy, right?

Marriage handled only by churches, with governments handing out civil unions to anyone. The latter would extend all of the legal benefits and rights currently covered under legal marriage, but a marriage performed by a church would have absolutely no legal meaning or repercussions.

 

[mysticwhip]

I'm guessing that Chair went to Card because he's a prominent sci-fi author and they had worked with him previously on Advent Rising. I doubt it was because of his political or moral views.

On another note, more and more heterosexual couples are choosing NOT to get married and divorce rates are rising, yet homosexual couples WANT marriage? Surely a middle ground exists that would make everyone happy, right?

I really don't think there will ever be a middle ground.

 

[xir]

Can't pass up a chance to link to "Orson Scott Card is an asshat"
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034

Shadow Complex is pretty good though.

Can you watch the Hang Over with Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist?

 

[Haunted]

Well they created the Empire universe and hired Card to write novels for it. If they didn't support the views he expresses then they certainly wouldn't have given him free reign to write whatever he wants with their property, especially with his very public opinions.

I'm guessing that Chair went to Card because he's a prominent sci-fi author and they had worked with him previously on Advent Rising. I doubt it was because of his political or moral views.

Both possible scenarios. I will withhold judgement until I know which is correct.

The only fault we can certainly pin on Chair is that they are and continue working with the guy despite his known moral and political values.

 

[DisenLedZep]

One more thing: to the handful of people who are calling marriage a "title" or a "piece of paper" -- you have every right to believe this. But, you're not married are you? Anyone who is married to the love of their life will tell you IT AIN'T NO PIECE OF PAPER. It's a huge commitment that changes lives and, oh by the way, comes with hundreds of legal rights in our society. Those are the reasons people are fighting for gay marriage rights. My own experience being married is the reason I support them.

This, pretty much

 

[Divvy]

I dig this thread. To those posters who say it's dumb or pointless or worse, why are you on a gaming forum? This is the most active gaming forum on the entire planet (quite literally), you expect every little thing to be discussed in detail. Further, this is no small detail when you think about it. As Chris Remo and duckroll have said so well, it comes down to the fact that the guy is one of the THE major players with money and power in this debate, not just a man with an opinion, and it truly calls into question what Chair was thinking.

I really hope Chair is reading this. I hope Don Mustard considers saying something. I hope they give us some insight into their intentions, because when I heard about who OSC is (and I didn't know much until this game), I found it really hard to believe they would want to work with him -- I don't give a shit how many sci-fi awards this guy has won.

Personally, I will be buying the game. I am a huge Super Metroid fan, and while some were sleeping on SC, I have been hyped from the moment I saw it. For me, the announcement of this game right up there with the Natal unveiling at E3.

In these situations, I always try to rely on some objective reasoning. What will not buying the game do? Maybe give a little peace of mind, but really there's no guarantee it's going to make a difference when it comes to gay rights (which I wholeheartedly support). Also, the game's story seems inconsequential, and has no direct relation to the issue.

What will buying the game do? It WILL guarantee that a game of this kind, which I would love to see more of, will be supported and likely see a sequel, or even better, send the message to Nintendo or Konami that full console versions of 2D Metriod or Castlevania is worth the investment. This is the bigger vote, the greater weight. I think the idea of donating $15 to a gay rights group is a good one - besides, that kind of activity is much more meaningful on the whole than boycotting an indirectly related product. Life is about what you do, not what you don't do.

One more thing: to the handful of people who are calling marriage a "title" or a "piece of paper" -- you have every right to believe this. But, you're not married are you? Anyone who is married to the love of their life will tell you IT AIN'T NO PIECE OF PAPER. It's a huge commitment that changes lives and, oh by the way, comes with hundreds of legal rights in our society. Those are the reasons people are fighting for gay marriage rights. My own experience being married is the reason I support them.

Good post, I can see your point. I may just do this. Though I don't really have time for a new game at the moment (but apparently I have the time to argue on gaf).

 

[DancingJesus]

Why is everyone so damn sensitive these days. Grow some balls and get over it. If you don't like, don't buy it.