Support NeoGAF

[Odrion]

And this makes you better than OSC how?

Well Coins never worked on Advent Rising.

 

[Mercury Fred]

I bet OP has never watched a movie with Tom Cruise or Charlie Sheen in it. You need to learn to separate the artist from the art when the art has no ideological influences from the artist. It's a shame you wouldn't like Platoon or Minority Report. People buying Shadow Complex are not giving money to the Mormon Church or NOW; the GayGamer article is exaggerated. This is one of the silliest hot topics I've seen in a while.

But it's really not about the art, it's all about money.

People don't want their money going to fund a cause that is dedicated to taking rights away from people. It's not complicated. Most of us couldn't give a toss if some creator is homophobic. What we care about is that someone has made their homophobia into a second career.

 

[Timber]

Sorry. I just knew that this question was going to be brought up, and the idea of a bunch of people being only socially conscious when some creative director decides that a XBLA game is going to take place in some bigot's sci-fi book got me angry and stupid.

How do you know how socially conscious some strangers on the internet are? Why do you automatically assume they are only conscious when it comes to this particular issue? Who are you to make that judgement when you know literally nothing about the people you try to deride?

I also have the belief that boycotting is a frivolous task, and I get mad when people choose that over something more active. If you care about homosexuals having equal rights, please donate to their organization or help at one of their ralleys. If you feel uncomfortable that Epic is collaborating with a bigot, I think it would be constructive to write to them explaining your feelings.

Oh dear. You have not read this thread at all.

you really make a conscious effort or just go the obviously pointed out option directly related to your hobby? I'm not being snarky, it's a genuine question. What you said comes off as pompous and self-righteous since there are lots of causes and this comes off like a lazy attempt at making a stand based on his prominence. I do agree that something is better than nothing but I also believe there are better things to get worked up over. I don't think not supporting an entire studio because of him is right to them, unless the game reflected his agenda. Of course there are holes in my view because there's no way my opinion can be fact.

I really don't want to make this about me personally, but yes I often watch what I buy outside of things related to gaming as well. Not always, mind you; I am well aware of my hypocrisies and shortcomings, but I try to keep them to a minimum. If what I said comes off as pompous then that's only because you assume I make no effort in other aspects of my life. I completely agree there are better (worse?) things to get worked up over, and I often do. But just because there are worse things in the world doesn't mean we should all ignore the lesser evils.

 

[Coins]

And this makes you better than OSC how?

Maybe because I dont advocate taking away people's rights?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Absolutely. It sucks to have something you care about deeply (money, marriage) ripped away from you when you have no control over it.

Who cares about the collateral though, right? Eye for an eye, aye? Let's screw over the little guy who needs to pay his bills, while a homophobic bigot who is probably going to wipe his ass with the money he makes off of this game continues his crusade with the money he's already got stacked in his bank account.

Who's little in this scenario

Epic who owns Chair or Microsoft Games who published it

Or the individual developers? Are they going to lose their jobs because a few people didn't buy Shadow Complex due to Card's involvement?

Did Nintendo fire their entire EAD team after Wii Music underperformed because some people didn't like waggle?

 

[Divvy]

Absolutely. It sucks to have something you care about deeply (money, marriage) ripped away from you when you have no control over it.

Who cares about the collateral though, right? Eye for an eye, aye? Let's screw over the little guy who needs to pay his bills, while a homophobic bigot who is probably going to wipe his ass with the money he makes off of this game continues his crusade with the money he's already got stacked in his bank account.

Again, how is not purchasing the game somehow "punishing" the developers? I as a consumer can choose to not purchase a game for any number of reasons. I am not not obligated to support the developer if I am not interested in purchasing the game.

 

[Papa]

that may be true, but how does that make it a dysfunction? Some homosexuals do chose to reproduce. Are heterosexuals who fail to reproduce sexually dysfunctional? I think people are confusing "dysfunction" with the concept of biological fitness. But even there, it doesn't work because homosexuals are certainly capable of producing an F2 if they so try.

No one said sexually dysfunctional. "Reproductively dysfunctionally" was referring to the willingness to reproduce.

 

[SonOfABeep]

It's not just about his beliefs, but his actions. Keep up.

Okay, so he acts on his beliefs. As long as he wasn't acting through the contributions to shadow complex, why should Chair care? Why act like they're to be held responsible for hiring him?

It comes down to whether you think OSC's beliefs are valid and he has the right to hold them, I think. Which he does, strictly as a political matter.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

which is absolutely fine but for people to make the leap that partnerships means sharing the same views is extremely presumptuous

But to make the similar leap that I shouldn't care about Card and be concerned for the poor, poor developers at Chair because they had absolutely nothing to do with this is equally silly.

Whether they have the same views or not, it doesn't erase how I already feel about the end product and who was involved with it. A hundred good men who do nothing don't erase the bad that one does.

 

[Bendz]

A two-male or two-female couple can't reproduce. The "science" there isn't that hard really.

I'm all for gay marriage, but trying to argue against that particular idea is ridiculous.

Is it though? I don't see a huge campaign against masturbation, which in those terms must also be equally dysfunctional? What about birth control - surely a heterosexual couple having sex but using birth control is also sexualy dysfunctional? This smacks to me of being the same old right wing, psuedo religious rubbish. What he really means is that he hates the idea of two guys having sex. I would have slightly more respect for him if he just said that. Though not much.

 

[Divvy]

Okay, so he acts on his beliefs. As long as he wasn't acting through the contributions to shadow complex, why should Chair care? Why act like they're to be held responsible for hiring him?

It comes down to whether you think OSC's beliefs are valid and he has the right to hold them, I think. Which he does, strictly as a political matter.

Of course he has the rights to his beliefs, no one is arguing that. Similarly, consumers have the right to not purchase this game if part of their purchase will goto someone who's actions they disagree with.

 

[Arozay]

i'm boycotting the xbox360, so unfortunately no Shadow Complex for me.

please release this on Steam for PC.

What he said. Game looks awesome, boycotting concept dumb. News at 11.

 

[swerve]

Though it's limited in impact, wherever possible I don't give money to people I don't like the sound of, and I do try to give money to those I believe are doing good stuff. So, thanks to the OP for the heads up on this. Sort of sucks though, as I was looking forward to it this weekend. :/

 

[SonOfABeep]

Of course he has the rights to his beliefs, no one is arguing that. Similarly, consumers have the right to not purchase this game if part of their purchase will goto someone who's actions they disagree with.

I think the logic there is spurious but it's your right to do that if you think it's not right to buy shadow complex.

I just think this is overly tangential and indirect to get upset over.

 

[VALIS]

He did not force his way in to the project. Chair had to sign a piece of paper that involved him, they signed a paycheck to give to him. It was a strategic partnership and they knew Card's baggage when they agreed to it.

My point is you still have to travel pretty far down the line to get there. Epic contracted Chair who contracted OSC who helped create the fictional setting of a game that does not promote or support homophobic views. Why shouldn't supposed responsible people now boycott all Epic products, too? Or why not all 360 products since it was the console this game appeared on? Or all MS products in general since their video game division approved the game? Where do you draw the line between direct and indirect responsibility? This is just an awful fight to pick. I could see if it were expressing homophobic ideas or allusions, or was created directly by a person/group with that agenda. But you really have to reach to connect the dots here. Those are never good fights to be in.

 

[SonOfABeep]

My point is you still have to travel pretty far down the line to get there. Epic contracted Chair who contracted OSC who helped create the world of a game that does not promote or support homophobic views. Why shouldn't supposed responsible people now boycott all Epic products, too? Or why not all 360 products since it was the console this game appeared on? Or all MS products in general since their video game division approved the game? Where do you draw the line between direct and indirect responsibility? This is just an awful fight to pick. I could see if it were expressing homophobic ideas or allusions, or was created directly by a person/group with that agenda. But you really have to reach to connect the dots here. Those are never good fights to be in.

This is the point I think I was trying to make.

Picking Shadow Complex to stop at with your boycott, (totally coincidentally the most popular XBLA title of the year and a very center stage product, of course) seems random at best and contrived at worst.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

My point is you still have to travel pretty far down the line to get there. Epic contracted Chair who contracted OSC who helped create the world of a game that does not promote or support homophobic views. Why shouldn't supposed responsible people now boycott all Epic products, too? Or why not all 360 products since it was the console this game appeared on? Or all MS products in general since their video game division approved the game? Where do you draw the line between direct and indirect responsibility? This is just an awful fight to pick. I could see if it were expressing homophobic ideas or allusions, or was created directly by a person/group with that agenda. But you really have to reach to connect the dots here. Those are never good fights to be in.

Where you draw the line is up to the individual. I don't watch most movies Tom Cruise is in because scientology is a crazy-ass cult, but I enjoyed Tropic Thunder a friend bought the DVD.

Incidentally, Chair started the project independently with Card, then MGS decided to publish it, then Epic bought Chair midway through development.

And after my 360 died today I would be pretty okay with a Microsoft boycott!

 

[Tideas]

I don't think I'll boycott it. THere's nothing wrong wit hteh game.

In fact, who knows, maybe I'll buy it like 3-4 times to replace the people that will boycott it /end sarcasm

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If it makes you feel better, I don't "stop" at Shadow Complex. I also don't pay for Card's books and I also try to follow the Prop 8 Business Donor list as best I can.

 

[genjiZERO]

No one said sexually dysfunctional. "Reproductively dysfunctionally" was referring to the willingness to reproduce.

um... you said homosexually was scientifically a reproductive dysfunction...

From a purely scientific point of view, homosexuality is a reproductive dysfunction

oh I see. But here, sexually and reproductively mean the same thing. The word I have issue with is "dysfunction". A dysfunction is something that doesn't work. Homosexuals, like heterosexuals who chose not to reproduce, are not infertile. Some homosexuals do hose to reproduce. Even if everyone on the planet was homosexual the species could still continue because reproduction would be possible. So I'm not seeing the argument of a dysfunction.

 

[Divvy]

My point is you still have to travel pretty far down the line to get there. Epic contracted Chair who contracted OSC who helped create the fictional setting of a game that does not promote or support homophobic views. Why shouldn't supposed responsible people now boycott all Epic products, too? Or why not all 360 products since it was the console this game appeared on? Or all MS products in general since their video game division approved the game? Where do you draw the line between direct and indirect responsibility? This is just an awful fight to pick. I could see if it were expressing homophobic ideas or allusions, or was created directly by a person/group with that agenda. But you really have to reach to connect the dots here. Those are never good fights to be in.

1. Chair created a world of crazy neocon wet dream called Empire. Chair hired Card to write for that world. Chair hires Card to help write for a game set in that universe. Epic bought Chair long after they began work on Shadow Complex. It's not that far down the line.
2. Buying Gears of War does not give OSC any money.
3. The issue here for most people who aren't buying the game is that their dollars would go directly to Card.

 

[Spoo]

Is this thread really is big as it seems to be?

Look -- try your best not to be absolutely stupid, and break it down in your head
so that can understand the *real* issue here in nice, digestable chunks.

1) Does Orson Scott Card dislike homosexuals? Answer: yes.
2) Should you buy a good game which, consequently, might support an anti-homosexual movement? Answer: Depends on who you are.
3) Does Shadow Complex deserve every dollar you could spend on it? Answer: yes.

Look. You're buying a game. What those people do with the money they rightfully make is up to them. Is there anything you can *realistically* do here? No. It's GAF; a forum. You can't change the world, and you make up a very small percent of who will buy this game. It's a very heartwarming thing to see so many people involved in the pro-gay movement,
but fucking over a good dev in Provo, Utah 'cuz you think they all hate gays is unfair as fuck. Orson hates Gays. Not Chair. And Chair deserves your support, 100%. Fuck you if you think everyone here in Utah thinks alike; we don't. We have our own ideas, and they aren't dictated by Orson, or anyone. We make up our own minds :}

Orson Scott Card is one man. A decent writer, if you've ever cared to read his books. A Mormon. Dislikes gays. Most Mormons do; it's kind of, like, a part of the religion. I don't agree with it. But does his involvement with a game make that game unbuyable? Worthless? Trash? No; because he's a small part of the whole. He'll make money one way or the other -- but it's more worth it to support the potential numerous devs at Chair who believe in the gay movement, then to fuck over the one guy who doesn't.

Sorry if you're so fucking thick you can't get that. But the second you start tossing a buncha devs in the same intellectual boat as Orson cuz you want to hurt some movement, is the second you've lost touch with the reality that people aren't always alike.

 

[StoOgE]

Card needs to go read Ender's game again because I am pretty sure he doesn't understand his own book.

 

[kamorra]

Where you draw the line is up to the individual. I don't watch most movies Tom Cruise is in because scientology is a crazy-ass cult, but I enjoyed Tropic Thunder a friend bought the DVD.

But this sounds more like hypocrisy than drawing a line.

 

[permutated]

:lol

Are you fucking serious? This boycott bullshit on GAF is getting out of control.

 

[Odrion]

How do you know how socially conscious some strangers on the internet are? Why do you automatically assume they are only conscious when it comes to this particular issue? Who are you to make that judgement when you know literally nothing about the people you try to deride?


Oh dear. You have not read this thread at all.


I really don't want to make this about me personally, but yes I often watch what I buy outside of things related to gaming as well. Not always, mind you; I am well aware of my hypocrisies and shortcomings, but I try to keep them to a minimum. If what I said comes off as pompous then that's only because you assume I make no effort in other aspects of my life. I completely agree there are better (worse?) things to get worked up over, and I often do. But just because there are worse things in the world doesn't mean we should all ignore the lesser evils.

Twenty something pages of posts. I know that there are going to be people socially conscious and there will be some effort posts with links and such, but then I read "Should we boycott Shadow Complex?" again and really just wanted to go after that question.

It's nice to know that you are someone who generally cares about the world around him and takes time to educate himself and makes some sacrifices for some issues, while excepting that we live in a capitalistic society that encourages businesses to commit things that would make anyone with empathy boycott (although that's maybe derailing things because this OSC nonsense was probably a creative decision and not profit.)

 

[ShockingAlberto]

But this sounds more like hypocrisy than drawing a line.

How so? Paying money for a ticket to a Tom Cruise movie is somehow exactly like watching a movie when a friend put it on?

 

[Drinky Crow]

wasn't chair previously glyph entertainment, who also worked with card on the advent* games?

 

[ha1f]

Again, how is not purchasing the game somehow "punishing" the developers? I as a consumer can choose to not purchase a game for any number of reasons. I am not not obligated to support the developer if I am not interested in purchasing the game.

Well, how are you defining "developer"? I'm thinking about this like a code monkey, because that's what I am. If I had written something I was really proud of, and then gotten fucked over because my bosses decided to hire a douchebag to write some books about my game, I'd be pissed. You absolutely have the write to make your opinion known with your wallet no matter what your reasons. If you feel that no one in the organization deserves your dollar because of someones decision to involve OSC, then so be it. I'd like to reward the people who actually had a hand in making the game by purchasing it, though. Doesn't mean I have to buy any books. Doesn't mean I have to feel like involving OSC is a good choice. But shit, I'm gonna the guy who wrote up the shoot-into-background mechanic his due.

Who's little in this scenario

Epic who owns Chair or Microsoft Games who published it

Or the individual developers? Are they going to lose their jobs because a few people didn't buy Shadow Complex due to Card's involvement?

Did Nintendo fire their entire EAD team after Wii Music underperformed because some people didn't like waggle?

At the rate that development studios are shutting down these days... you aren't being serious, are you?

I mean, shit. I honestly didn't know much about OSC before this thread. I knew of him, but hadn't really looked at what he's done in depth. But, a simple google search just led me to a story that says OSC wrote the sword fighting insults in TSoMI. Am I going to run out and tell people to avoid it at all costs because he worked on it? No, I'm going to tell people to try it out because a lot of people worked hard on it in the past and the present and created something awesome.

Again, I'm not saying you can't voice your opinion however you want. I'm really just trying to provide an alternate perspective as a kid who has to work on projects where I don't always have any control in order to get along.

 

[Woo-Fu]

There is probably a homophobe working at every major publisher in the business. Every time you buy a game, somewhere, somehow, somebody whose beliefs you disagree with is profiting.

You might as well boycott everything, at least you'd be consistent.

 

[kamorra]

How so? Paying money for a ticket to a Tom Cruise movie is somehow exactly like watching a movie when a friend put it on?

So if a friend would buy you Shadow Complex you wouldn't have a problem?

 

[Open Source]

OK, now where are the boycotts of people who are anti-2nd Amendment? They, too, are trying to "take away rights," with the difference being that the rights in question are already enshrined in the Constitution and affirmed by the Supreme Court.

 

[Divvy]

Is this thread really is big as it seems to be?

Look -- try your best not to be absolutely stupid, and break it down in your head
so that can understand the *real* issue here in nice, digestable chunks.

1) Does Orson Scott Card dislike homosexuals? Answer: yes.
2) Should you buy a good game which, consequently, might support an anti-homosexual movement? Answer: Depends on who you are.
3) Does Shadow Complex deserve every dollar you could spend on it? Answer: yes.

Look. You're buying a game. What those people do with the money they rightfully make is up to them. Is there anything you can *realistically* do here? No. It's GAF; a forum. You can't change the world, and you make up a very small percent of who will buy this game. It's a very heartwarming thing to see so many people involved in the pro-gay movement,
but fucking over a good dev in Provo, Utah 'cuz you think they all hate gays is unfair as fuck. Orson hates Gays. Not Chair. And Chair deserves your support, 100%. Fuck you if you think everyone here in Utah thinks alike; we don't. We have our own ideas, and they aren't dictated by Orson, or anyone. We make up our own minds :}

Orson Scott Card is one man. A decent writer, if you've ever cared to read his books. A Mormon. Dislikes gays. Most Mormons do; it's kind of, like, a part of the religion. I don't agree with it. But does his involvement with a game make that game unbuyable? Worthless? Trash? No; because he's a small part of the whole. He'll make money one way or the other -- but it's more worth it to support the potential numerous devs at Chair who believe in the gay movement, then to fuck over the one guy who doesn't.

Sorry if you're so fucking thick you can't get that. But the second you start tossing a buncha devs in the same intellectual boat as Orson cuz you want to hurt some movement, is the second you've lost touch with the reality that people aren't always alike.

This whole thing comes down to the OP's use of the word boycott which was a stupid choice. This is not some sort of idiotic movement to hurt Card or Chair or Epic games. ALL this is is consumer choice. If you don't want your money to go to Card, don't buy the game. If you don't care, buy it and enjoy the game. That's ALL there is to it.

 

[fernoca]

Well, decided I'm getting the game anyway..when I get a 360; by the end of the year.
If I started to boycott everyone and everything because of anti-gay things..I'll have to boycott well...everything.

 

[Mercury Fred]

OK, now where are the boycotts of people who are anti-2nd Amendment? They, too, are trying to "take away rights," with the difference being that the rights in question are already enshrined in the Constitution and affirmed by the Supreme Court.

Is there something stopping you from starting one?

 

[Tain]

What if i'm boycotting shadow complex because of my stances on what videogames should be?




cuz all that rpg shit looks dumb.

 

[-PXG-]

I just got passed the big robot spider. Oh wait. Nevermind...

 

[Shurs]

Do you all go around questioning everyone who you support with your business? The taxi man? The cook? Etc? If so then feel free to boycott this.

If a Taxi driver was standing on the soapbox, promoting intolerance, I'd find another cab.

 

[kiuju2k]

No. Its an action game. Forget about the back story.

 

[Spoo]

This whole thing comes down to the OP's use of the word boycott which was a stupid choice. This is not some sort of idiotic movement to hurt Card or Chair or Epic games. ALL this is is consumer choice. If you don't want your money to go to Card, don't buy the game. If you don't care, buy it and enjoy the game. That's ALL there is to it.

God, really? My money will go in a lot of directions. A portion of it will go to Microsoft, for hosting/allowing the game on their "service" in the first place. A large portion will go to Epic and Chair, for obvious reasons. A super, super small portion of it will go to Card for "contributing" a storyline base. Do any of you even know if, maybe, Card being such a goddamn "saint", -- can you really prove to me that he's getting anything for this? Even a cent?

No, not really. You guys are spazzing out about shit you can't prove, and have 0 insight into. Goodnight.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Is there something stopping you from starting one?

Tact? Basic socialization?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

At the rate that development studios are shutting down these days... you aren't being serious, are you?

Again

Wholly owned by Epic

Do we really want to get in to how big Epic is? How little danger, especially in the next five to ten years, they are of ever faltering? That is, unless someone supplants UE3 with something even better and Epic decides it's not worth trying to compete. Or a nuke launched at their offices. Both of those things would probably drive Epic out of business. Other than that, not so much?

Epic didn't just spend a whole bunch of money to completely buy out Chair to dump them because they lost 100, 200, or even 1000 sales on Shadow Complex because of Card.

Again, I'm not saying you can't voice your opinion however you want. I'm really just trying to provide an alternate perspective as a kid who has to work on projects where I don't always have any control in order to get along.

That's a shame, but he is unfortunately part of the line between my wallet and funding anti-gay marriage ammendments. And other people will be in those lines, too, between my money and people doing things I don't believe in.

 

[dorkimoe]

i dont let peoples personal opinions affect what games i buy

i may disagree with him but it has nothing to do with this game

 

[NinajHeartless]

I just got passed the big robot spider. Oh wait. Nevermind...

I got you beat man, I destroyed not one, but two Lost Planet reject mechs

 

[Drinky Crow]

i don't care about where the money goes. i just don't give my money -- and thus, my approval -- to companies that give orson scott card the time of day, and doubly so when they regularly associate with him. that's it. pretty simple.

 

[Timber]

It's nice to know that you are someone who generally cares about the world around him and takes time to educate himself and makes some sacrifices for some issues, while excepting that we live in a capitalistic society that encourages businesses to commit things that would make anyone with empathy boycott

do you mean 'accepting' ? if so, stop assuming so damned much. you think you got people pegged just by reading a couple of posts, don't you? and stop trying to make this so personal. i'm getting quite fed up with your shit

 

[Odrion]

Jesus christ Timber, you are pompous.

So ShockingAlberto, because it's not 1080p you weren't going to buy the game anyways?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

So if a friend would buy you Shadow Complex you wouldn't have a problem?

Probably not. But then again, I don't think scientology is as big an issue as active oppression. I guess you think it's strange I don't believe everything with the exact same intensity?

I like chicken but if someone cooked me a fish I probably wouldn't call them ignorant. However, if someone told me gays shouldn't marry, I might.

 

[Woo-Fu]

If a Taxi driver was standing on the soapbox, promoting intolerance, I'd find another cab.

That would actually be counterproductive for your goal. If you hire him he won't be standing on the soapbox anymore, he'll be driving you around.

 

[Bending_Unit_22]

Well now I have to buy this, to help counter any possible boycott .

Sounds like a cool game anyhow.