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[Amibguous Cad]

I think this is an important discussion to have and I'm thrilled the thread is still open.

Personally, I see every dollar I spend as a vote. If I buy something at Wal-Mart, McDonald's or any other store, I essentially endorse that company's business practices. I say it's okay to mistreat employees, use sweat shop labor or excessively pollute the environment.

I understand some people don't see it that why, but I respectfully disagree with them. I will not donate to a politician who's policies and agenda I disagree with. Why do the same with consumer products?

I do my best to shop at stores that sell quality products made conscientiously. I do not shop at WalMart, eat at McDonalds or buy Kraft food products. I do not support those companies business practices, labor conditions, etc.

I buy most of my games used to a) lessen the environmental impact and b) give as little support (in forms of royalties) to Microsoft as possible. Only when I absolutely want to support a company to I buy a game new.

I have not decided what to do about Shadow Complex yet. It's a game I cannot buy used, and it directly supports a company with mediocre business practices (Microsoft) and sends money to a man whose views I find repulsive.

I applaud anyone who decides not to buy Shadow Complex to prevent money going to someone who's ideas they cannot support. It's a principled decision -whether others agree with it or not.

Don't want to derail entirely, but I think you should reconsider some of your stance.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Powellsweatshops.html

In short, making these exploited workers' best option as far as employment goes impossible isn't really helping them. There are better ways to help the global poor than boycotting the products they're making.

 

[morningbus]

God damn, is it mediocre analogy day, or something?

I mean, it is almost exactly like I've been put aboard a spaceship, put into a deep hypersleep, and then suddenly awoken to view the last episode of Friends.

I mean, it is exactly like that.

 

[Red Blaster]

I was once drinking in a pub and this guy who I looked at said to me "are you a fucking poof or something?" I said no. I noticed he was drinking a pint of Fosters at the time, since that day I have not drank Fosters as I can't support these biggots.

I call for a ban on all pubs that sell Fosters, you with me?.

DURRRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Spoiler

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[HiResDes]

It's a great game, I already bought it...I'm part of the problem, but if this really is a good cause and you feel like you're helping a legitimate cause then by all means restrain from buying. I just wanted to let everyone that it is indeed an extremely fun game to play, and will definitely be a contender for GOTY.

 

[Red Nightmare]

Boycott Shadow Complex because of its tangential association with a writer who opposes gay marriage (like most Americans do)? What a silly and meaningless gesture.

How about gays, blacks, and Jews boycott Xbox Live in general since it provides an open unmoderated forum for countless douchebags to spew racist and bigoted words against them?

 

[Amibguous Cad]

You keep belittling gay marriage as an issue. Let me give you a concrete example of why it's a bigger deal than "oh no, I have to drive somewhere" as you keep implying.

My partner is Korean and not yet an American citizen. If we were a heterosexual couple and were to make the decision to spend the rest of our lives together, making that decision and commitment would be the hardest part. As a gay couple, it's a lot more complicated and there are genuine legitimate fears and concerns that arise that a straight person will never, ever have to even briefly consider. (That, by the way, is what privilege is and why it is a legitimate thing, whether or not you'd rather mock it so that you don't have to acknowledge the privileges you have. To be given the choice whether or not you care about political issues because there aren't people out there actively trying to strip away your rights is a privilege I envy a great deal.)

Is it the most important issue in the world ever? No. Certainly not, and I don't believe anyone in this entire thread has said that. Is it just the minor inconvenience you make it out to be? Fuck no.



I think maybe you are the one who needs to check yourself for blinders. How is it nerd rage to not want to fund the very groups that are seeking to strip away my rights? That's not self-righteous, it's self-preservation.

I also love it how gay rights is the only cause held to such a strict standard. You can bitch about drug laws, about civil rights for any other minority group, about stupid supreme court decisions, or about our overly litigious society, and no one mentions how many other more worthy causes there are to bitch about. Yet as soon as gay rights is brought up, it's all "IT'S NOT AS BAD AS THE HOLOCAUST SHUT UP AND ENJOY WHAT YOU'VE GOT YOU UPPITY FAGGOTS"

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It's a great game, I already bought it...I'm part of the problem, but if this really is a good cause and you feel like you're helping a legitimate cause then by all means restrain from buying. I just wanted to let everyone that it is indeed an extremely fun game to play, and will definitely be a contender for GOTY.

I'm sure by year's end everyone will have forgotten it and will be sticking their dicks in a toaster over whatever garbage came out in November.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

For every game with a homophobic writer you boycott, there are 50 products in your house that are probably somehow connected to homophobia.

Also, when you bought that slurpee at 7-11, you contributed to the clerk's paycheck, which he's going to go spend on crack/heroin and that addiction may lead him to rob house and kill innocent people one day.

just sayin'

Hey, the writer of this game is openly gay and a supporter of gay rights not OSC.

 

[Karak]

Thanks for the data
Bought it twice.

 

[FunnyBunny]

You do realize that every used game you buy has a bigger negative effect on its developers than it does on Microsoft, right? And assuming you buy your used games at a place like Gamestop you are supporting their shitty business as well.

I do understand it hurts developers, which is why I buy some games new.

I also don't shop at GameStop due to their business practices. I either mom & pop it or go the EBay or Amazon route. I understand Amazon's business practices aren't perfect, either - but it is a better option than GameStop.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Hey, the writer of this game is openly gay and a supporter of gay rights not OSC.

Someone should probably tell Peter David's wife that he's gay.

 

[Fyodor Dostoevsky]

This has probably been brought up, but this doesn't seem like a truly necessary spot to take your stand on this issue. Think of how many games you buy with homophobes who work on them. Look at your collection, think of the large teams that make those games, and ask yourself if a passionate homophobe isn't on one of those teams.

I know gaf takes their games seriously and I know people who support these causes try to be as pure about them as possible, but this hardly seems like an effective way to take a stand.

I do understand it hurts developers, which is why I buy some games new.

I also don't shop at GameStop due to their business practices. I either mom & pop it or go the EBay or Amazon route. I understand Amazon's business practices aren't perfect, either - but it is a better option than GameStop.

No it isn't. They give you shitty trade in values and promote 3rd party sellers who sell games for WAYYYYY above retail prices. I buy from both but stop fooling yourself :lol

here's one example (and there are tons just like it):
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LY4IDK/?tag=neogaf0e-20

that 3rd party seller gets all the exposure on many games and they sell for way above retail and way above the market demand for games.

 

[HiResDes]

This might be the dumbest fucking thing said in a thread full of stupid fucking posts. Congratulations, you are the new Emperor of Idiocy.

It would be, but I think he was being sarcastic

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Someone should probably tell Peter David's wife that he's gay.

My mistake, though it doesn't change the fact he supports gay rights.

 

[Iknos]

This has probably been brought up, but this doesn't seem like a truly necessary spot to take your stand on this issue. Think of how many games you buy with homophobes who work on them. Look at your collection, think of the large teams that make those games, and ask yourself if a passionate homophobe isn't on one of those teams.

How many of those guys are so vocal about it that they seek to change laws that affect people's rights?

 

[FunnyBunny]

Wow. You must be fun at parties.

Oh, I am. I'm a hoot.

Which is all fine as long as you realize that it is a matter of principle, that the effect on the company is minimal... not eating at McDonald's only makes you a better person in your own eyes, because you are abiding by your principles.

I understand both those points. In my eyes, a minimal impact is better than none at all.

I'm also not here to judge anyone else. I only make the decisions I think are right and I think I need to - for me. I wanted to share my opinion about this topic, not get preachy and judge others.

 

[Groovester]

Something like this will give pause for thought for a lot of people. However, there are probably a metric ton of writers, producers and people working behind the scenes in all forms of media that I don't agree with ideologically either - they just aren't as public. Sort of creates the quandary of where do you draw the line and not support something.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

so is anything a person doesn't agree with considered a 'phobia' now?



I see 'homophobe' thrown around in this thread like a football on Sunday.

 

[Fyodor Dostoevsky]

How many of those guys are so vocal about it that they seek to change laws that affect people's rights?

I don't know, voting is anonymous in the U.S. and not all of them are high profile sci-fi writers, so we don't know their moves.

Something like this will give pause for thought for a lot of people. However, there are probably a metric ton of writers, producers and people working behind the scenes in all forms of media that I don't agree with ideologically either - they just aren't as public. Sort of creates the quandary of where do you draw the line and not support something.

that's what I'm getting at. but I'm just thinking out loud in this thread, I think people should boycott it if they want to. If it's enough people that are loud enough, it'll get back to OSC himself.

First good step would be to post it on the Epic forums. As if they didn't have enough moderation issues with all the Gears 2 bitching :lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

My mistake, though it doesn't change the fact he supports gay rights.

Indeed. I'd never call Peter's ethics into question. He's an incredibly admirable person and I really respect his courage and his willingness to put his ass on the line professionally for what he believes in.

Makes the whole situation kind of puzzling to me, though.

 

[woodypop]

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. By all means they should boycott the game if they feel strongly about it. I just think they are being a bit hypocritical when they try and get others to join their cause. Why should anyone care about their cause when there are hundreds of other causes about issues much more serious? It's obvious that these guys only care about this issue because it might directly affect them, but why should the rest of us give a damn?

And honestly I doubt our ancestors were any different. When has the majority of a population every acted strongly about something that didn't affect their lives in some way?

Maybe enlightenment has something to do with it? Maybe, just maybe, people have the capacity to care about those beyond their own personal spheres?

Would we like to do away with ALL the injustices in the world? Yeah. But as individuals, we have only finite resources and time to allocate toward that goal. Thus, it's necessary to pick and choose our causes.

We ALL choose our causes. Pitting them against one another in some sort of "most serious" hierarchy isn't terribly constructive when there's SO MUCH improvement we can do in the world (regardless of how you feel about this particular Shadow Complex/Card thing).

Just because you can't change everything, doesn't mean you can't change something. And just because that something doesn't directly affect you, doesn't mean it's not worthy.

 

[Odrion]

On one hand, I don't like people who are discovering OSC's association and going "well, can't have my a portion of my money going to some bigot's royalties!" in a single act of consumer caution, thinking that purchasing the game is morally wrong as they support many other industries who actually exploit. So does people being self righteous about boycotting the game when it's unknown to whether or not they were actually going to buy it in the first place.

On the other hand, it would be pretty neat if we manage to generate enough controversy that an entertainment company decides to not associate themselves with people like OSC again.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Again, would mass writing to Chair/Epic/Microsoft not be 1000x more effective?

 

[woodypop]

Something like this will give pause for thought for a lot of people. However, there are probably a metric ton of writers, producers and people working behind the scenes in all forms of media that I don't agree with ideologically either - they just aren't as public. Sort of creates the quandary of where do you draw the line and not support something.

EXACTLY.

This is what it boils down to. And that place where the line is drawn?--It's different for each and every one of us.

 

[Fyodor Dostoevsky]

On one hand, people who are discovering OSC's association and going "well, can't have my a portion of my money going to some bigot's royalties!" in a single act of consumer caution while they're obliviously supporting many other terrible things in our world get me mad.

why would that get you mad? that's just the way capitalism works...unless you live off the grid on food you've grown yourself, you're going to support a dick head somehow. we're all walking contradictions :lol

 

[minus_273]

You keep belittling gay marriage as an issue. Let me give you a concrete example of why it's a bigger deal than "oh no, I have to drive somewhere" as you keep implying.

My partner is Korean and not yet an American citizen. If we were a heterosexual couple and were to make the decision to spend the rest of our lives together, making that decision and commitment would be the hardest part. As a gay couple, it's a lot more complicated and there are genuine legitimate fears and concerns that arise that a straight person will never, ever have to even briefly consider. (That, by the way, is what privilege is and why it is a legitimate thing, whether or not you'd rather mock it so that you don't have to acknowledge the privileges you have. To be given the choice whether or not you care about political issues because there aren't people out there actively trying to strip away your rights is a privilege I envy a great deal.)

Is it the most important issue in the world ever? No. Certainly not, and I don't believe anyone in this entire thread has said that. Is it just the minor inconvenience you make it out to be? Fuck no.



I think maybe you are the one who needs to check yourself for blinders. How is it nerd rage to not want to fund the very groups that are seeking to strip away my rights? That's not self-righteous, it's self-preservation.

most americans including the president oppose gay marriage. Why arent people railing against Obama?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

It would be, but I think he was being sarcastic

Uh, yes, the sarcasm was not exactly layered there. It's still really fucking stupid.

 

[Odrion]

why would that get you mad? that's just the way capitalism works...unless you live off the grid on food you've grown yourself, you're going to support a dick head somehow. we're all walking contradictions :lol

Well yeah, I agree with you. My point is we're all doing a lot worse things with our dollar, purchasing a XBLA game that will support some crazy sci-fi author through royalties is a very minor detriment to our society.

 

[The Lamonster]

I bought it last night...its such a good game...but the homophobic bullshit surrounding the author is pretty distracting.

 

[FlashFlooder]

This idea is ridiculous.

That said, I'll be boycotting it (until they release it on PS3)

 

[Coins]

This has probably been brought up, but this doesn't seem like a truly necessary spot to take your stand on this issue. Think of how many games you buy with homophobes who work on them. Look at your collection, think of the large teams that make those games, and ask yourself if a passionate homophobe isn't on one of those teams.

I know gaf takes their games seriously and I know people who support these causes try to be as pure about them as possible, but this hardly seems like an effective way to take a stand.




No it isn't. They give you shitty trade in values and promote 3rd party sellers who sell games for WAYYYYY above retail prices. I buy from both but stop fooling yourself :lol

here's one example (and there are tons just like it):
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LY4IDK/?tag=neogaf0e-20

that 3rd party seller gets all the exposure on many games and they sell for way above retail and way above the market demand for games.

I dont know how to spell this out for the 2 second attention span privileged kiddies.

If OSC were a guy who just briefly mentioned that he voted against Prop 8 I would buy the fucking game probably! He is entitled to his own opinion and I respect that.

The truth of the matter is, OSC sits on a fucking board of people who strategize ways to keep rights away from fellow Americans! He spends a LOT of money to keep rights away from fellow Americans! He is comparable to David Duke!

Its not just that he has these views. He forces his views onto the lives of others!

If one member of a gay couple gets deathly sick and is on their deathbed in a hospital, most hospitals WONT EVEN LET THEIR PARTNER BE WITH THEM AT TIME OF DEATH because gay marriage is not recognized! Family only!! OSC helped make that happen.

For the crowbars who say, "Hurr, hurr I bought two!!" I dont care! My post wasnt for you! It was for gay people and people who sympathize with the toll it takes to live life opnely as a gay person!

 

[HiResDes]

Uh, yes, the sarcasm was not exactly layered there. It's still really fucking stupid.

This is true

 

[Vinci]

And to be fair, you weren't quite so neutral when the thread started.

I never told him he couldn't boycott the game in my earlier post, just that he doesn't appear to take as much care in other creators' opinions he would likely object to. With the exception of OSC, who is quite open in his views, the amount of conjecture as to the developers' stance on this particular issue - which bears no relation to the product in question, since it's not about homophobia or anti-homosexual messages - is pretty insane. Then you have the assumption that every Mormon hates homosexuals; that they believe this or that when that's probably a gross exaggeration of the truth on an individual level.

OSC is an individual. If you don't want to buy the game predicated on his involvement, have at it - but don't make generalizations about others as if it's some conspiracy.

At any rate, the OP should do what he wants, as others should.

 

[stupei]

I also love it how gay rights is the only cause held to such a strict standard. You can bitch about drug laws, about civil rights for any other minority group, about stupid supreme court decisions, or about our overly litigious society, and no one mentions how many other more worthy causes there are to bitch about. Yet as soon as gay rights is brought up, it's all "IT'S NOT AS BAD AS THE HOLOCAUST SHUT UP AND ENJOY WHAT YOU'VE GOT YOU UPPITY FAGGOTS"

I think at least part of the double standard is the assumption that nobody is going to know you're gay unless you tell them, so any bigotry directed at you is at least partially your own fault. Also abstract points about whether or not "marriage" matters when you have love and legal rights through "civil union." (Interesting to me that I've never once heard someone argue atheists shouldn't be allowed to call it marriage. If marriage is a religious issue, surely we need to stop those God hating bastards from marrying in our churches, desecrating what is a sacred union in the eyes of the Lord!)

 

[woodypop]

Again, would mass writing to Chair/Epic/Microsoft not be 1000x more effective?

Probably.

But picketing their offices would be more effective than that.

And calling news stations to cover the picketing would be even MORE effective than that.

Just because you aren't doing/can't do the most effective thing doesn't mean you shouldn't do something less effective.

I can't give $1,000 a week to my local food bank. Does that mean I shouldn't give $20 a week?

It's a matter of how much of your resources you are willing and able to contribute.

 

[Mercury Fred]

You keep belittling gay marriage as an issue. Let me give you a concrete example of why it's a bigger deal than "oh no, I have to drive somewhere" as you keep implying.

My partner is Korean and not yet an American citizen. If we were a heterosexual couple and were to make the decision to spend the rest of our lives together, making that decision and commitment would be the hardest part. As a gay couple, it's a lot more complicated and there are genuine legitimate fears and concerns that arise that a straight person will never, ever have to even briefly consider. (That, by the way, is what privilege is and why it is a legitimate thing, whether or not you'd rather mock it so that you don't have to acknowledge the privileges you have. To be given the choice whether or not you care about political issues because there aren't people out there actively trying to strip away your rights is a privilege I envy a great deal.)

Is it the most important issue in the world ever? No. Certainly not, and I don't believe anyone in this entire thread has said that. Is it just the minor inconvenience you make it out to be? Fuck no.

I think maybe you are the one who needs to check yourself for blinders. How is it nerd rage to not want to fund the very groups that are seeking to strip away my rights? That's not self-righteous, it's self-preservation.

Thanks for posting this. Though, since it's relevant and thoughtful, I'm sure it'll get skipped over by most of the posters in this thread.

most americans including the president oppose gay marriage. Why arent people railing against Obama?

Uh, many of us are. Check the PoliGAF and gay marriage threads in OT.

 

[FunnyBunny]

most americans including the president oppose gay marriage. Why arent people railing against Obama?

Same-Sex marriage advocates are furious with the president - and say so openly.

Oh, and 25% of Americans support civil unions, while 42% support same-sex marriage. Those opposed to any legal recognition are in the minority.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/27/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4972643.shtml

The points made about Card in this thread is reason enough for people to decide not to buy Shadow Complex. That's their right and I support it.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Probably.

But picketing their offices would be more effective than that.

And calling news stations to cover the picketing would be even MORE effective than that.

Just because you aren't doing/can't do the most effective thing doesn't mean you shouldn't do a something less effective.

I can't give $1,000 a week to my local food bank. Does that mean I shouldn't give $20 a week?

It's a matter of how much of your resources you are willing and able to contribute.

I see what you're saying. BUT in this case I think you're wrong in that if anyone here is willing to boycott SC over the ignorance of OSC, then they're willing to be send an e-mail/letter, because they know it requires a minimal amount of effort and it will be so much more effective. What if Chair don't even realise that people are boycotting?

 

[minus_273]

Thanks for posting this. Though, since it's relevant and thoughtful, I'm sure it'll get skipped over by most of the posters in this thread.


Uh, many of us are. Check the PoliGAF and gay marriage threads in OT.

right, but is anyone using gay marriage as a single metric for judging a product like this? for example did the OP and the other people calling for a boycott vote for the anti-gay marriage obama in the election ? why was it ok to vote someone who opposes rights for people to be the president (the guy who actually has power) yet call for a boycott for a game that is tangentially related to a work by a guy who opposes gay marriage because he might get a small portion of the money.

 

[Vilix]

most americans including the president oppose gay marriage. Why arent people railing against Obama?

Because he's black, and even one criticism would be seen as being racist.

 

[carpal]

Is it actually possible to buy a game twice on XBL? Or are those who claim to have done so simply making the same lazy joke over and over?

 

[minus_273]

Same-Sex marriage advocates are furious with the president - and say so openly.

Oh, and 25% of Americans support civil unions, while 42% support same-sex marriage. Those opposed to any legal recognition are in the minority.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/27/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4972643.shtml

The points made about Card in this thread is reason enough for people to decide not to buy Shadow Complex. That's their right and I support it.

your own post shows a minority of americans support gay marriage. what are you trying to argue?

 

[Vinci]

Is it actually possible to buy a game twice on XBL? Or are those who claim to have done so simply making the same lazy joke over and over?

Can you gift it to friends on Live? That might be how. But yeah, it's mostly bullshit, I suspect.

 

[Coins]

right, but is anyone using gay marriage as a single metric for judging a product like this? for example did the OP and the other people calling for a boycott vote for the anti-gay marriage obama in the election ? why was it ok to vote someone who opposes rights for people to be the president (the guy who actually has power) yet call for a boycott for a game that is tangentially related to a work by a guy who opposes gay marriage because he might get a small portion of the money.

Someone who votes for a President on a single issue is moronic.

If I thought McCain wasnt a warhawk, would work hard to legalize gay marriage, didnt have Palin as a running mate, and the economy werent in the tank, I would have considered voting for him.

 

[woodypop]

I see what you're saying. BUT in this case I think you're wrong in that if anyone here is willing to boycott SC over the ignorance of OSC, then they're willing to be send an e-mail/letter, because they know it requires a minimal amount of effort and it will be so much more effective. What if Chair don't even realise that people are boycotting?

If you're saying that letter-writing in conjunction with a boycott is more effective, then we're in agreement.

 

[Talamius]

How about gays, blacks, and Jews boycott Xbox Live in general since it provides an open unmoderated forum for countless douchebags to spew racist and bigoted words against them?

While I'm not aware of any "official" boycotts of XBL, I'm sure that behavior drives a lot of people off of it (and word of mouth prevents a lot of people from going Gold to begin with). It's a douchebag magnet as offenders largely go unpunished. If you have to lock outside contact down to Nintendo Wifi Connect levels to make the serice bearable, your service has a problem and the behavior needs to be dealt with harshly. It's the main reason I do most of my console online gaming on PSN, because while there are douchebags they aren't quite as prevalent. Whether that's a product of the service having less people or Sony actually takes action on offenders, I dunno. I lean towards the former.

 

[Coins]

your own post shows a minority of americans support gay marriage. what are you trying to argue?

Who cares? Back in the 1960s a majority of Americans thought Blacks shouldnt mix with whites. They were wrong.

 

[minus_273]

Someone who votes for a President on a single issue is moronic.

If I thought McCain wasnt a warhawk, would work hard to legalize gay marriage, didnt have Palin as a running mate, and the economy werent in the tank, I would have considered voting for him.

there were others you could have voted for. just to be clear, you were ok with supporting the guy who makes the policy that bans gay-marriage, but you do not support a game somewhat related to a guy who just advocates banning it?

 

[Coins]

there were others you could have voted for. just to be clear, you were ok with supporting the guy who makes the policy that bans gay-marriage, but you do not support a game somewhat related to a guy who just advocates banning it?

He doesnt just advocate banning it. He uses his resources to stop it from happening. I didnt see Obama say he would attempt to stop the will of the people if Prop 8 had passed. I disagree with Obama's view on it, but hes not out there trying to squash it.

 

[SmokyDave]

Thanks for the data
Bought it twice.

I really wanted to stay out of this thread but I have to ask, what is the point of posts like this?

I honestly don't get it? Is it to say 'fuck you' to the op? is it to say 'I understand this guy is vehemently homophobic and I dig that so much I had to buy two copies'? is it a 'fuck you' to the general concept of civil rights?

Anyone pretending to be buying more than one copy of this game thanks to this thread, can you explain why to me? What image are you trying to portray?