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[KHarvey16]

Likely true, but you're ignoring my original point about not knowing whether the amount of money he receives is correlated to the sales of the game or was always going to be the same regardless.

Doesn't matter. Really, it's about principle at this point. Whether I pay for an entire trip for him and his friends to go influence politicians in Washington or just a bag of peanuts on the flight I feel the same.

They don't deserve to be rewarded for making any old game - they deserve to be rewarded for making a game that you personally find to be worth the price, that you find sufficiently interesting, and that you can comfortably afford. They've done all the requisite work to make something that appeals to you (this is the generic 'you,' not you in particular) but you've thrown all that out the window because your 1 or 2 cents MIGHT go to someone in the Special Thanks section that you disagree with.

They made one decision I disagree with. That's it. What difference does it make if that decision was about gameplay or this OSC business? You may not deem it important. You are not me.

Of course it's my choice. I choose to monetarily support people's right to express themselves if they're providing services or goods that I find valuable. I don't fantasize about people falling into financial ruin just because they disagree with me.

That makes two of us. You should really phrase those in the form of a question, unless straw men are a fetish of yours.

 

[KHarvey16]

Listen, you're not going to get your wish.

My wish is to have exactly $0 of my money end up with OSC. I am absolutely accomplishing that, thank you.

 

[diddlyD]

Why is this thread 43 pages?

44 thanks to you pal

 

[Spoo]

My wish is to have exactly $0 of my money end up with OSC. I am absolutely accomplishing that, thank you.

I think that's about what this comes down to. We could call Shadow Complex the greatest, most innovative game of our time (which, frankly, it is not -- as fine a game as it is), and we could say that your reaction to the game is -- frankly -- very much like the Mormon reaction to Prop 8 ( which it is, since those Mormons certainly don't want Gays getting hitched! ). And we could say, definitely, that there are many, many people attached to Shadow Complex who feel as you do; that Card is digusting, inhumane, and unfair in his rulings towards the gay community.

And we do say all these things, and yet, nomatter the case, not 1 cent is worth spending if it will, in part, be sent to OSC so that he may further impair the gay community in their quest for equal rights.

Ok. Fine. God. You've made your point.

BTW: I just finished Shadow Complex, and I'm SOOO low on the leader boards, that my guess is that SC has sold well enough even with this thread of stupidness! So, worry not those who wish for a sequel. We may get it!

 

[KHarvey16]

I think that's about what this comes down to. We could call Shadow Complex the greatest, most innovative game of our time (which, frankly, it is not -- as fine a game as it is), and we could say that your reaction to the game is -- frankly -- very much like the Mormon reaction to Prop 8 ( which it is, since those Mormons certainly don't want Gays getting hitched! ). And we could say, definitely, that there are many, many people attached to Shadow Complex who feel as you do; that Card is digusting, inhumane, and unfair in his rulings towards the gay community.

And we do say all these things, and yet, nomatter the case, not 1 cent is worth spending if it will, in part, be sent to OSC so that he may further impair the gay community in their quest for equal rights.

Ok. Fine. God. You've made your point.

BTW: I just finished Shadow Complex, and I'm SOOO low on the leader boards, that my guess is that SC has sold well enough even with this thread of stupidness! So, worry not those who wish for a sequel. We may get it!

I have always and will always maintain that the decision over whether or not money going to OSC is worth forgoing the game is entirely up to the individual. I am not trying to say everyone should agree with me on this point. What bothers me is when people ignore, mischaracterize or otherwise aim to misrepresent the entire debate. The pages I've spent responding is an attempt to clarify my view and defend the reasoning I've used to come to it, not to force others to reach the same conclusion I have.

 

[Chris R]

My wish is to have exactly $0 of my money end up with OSC. I am absolutely accomplishing that, thank you.

That is what you think :\ There are TONS of businesses owned either directly or indirectly by Mormons (a simple google search will turn up huge lists) who may or may not contribute funds to OSC (and there are probably tons of businesses owned by non-Mormons who also give money to OSC). As much as I don't agree with his ideas or like what he has done, I do enjoy some of his books, and loved Shadow Complex (though there was very little story in the game).

 

[KHarvey16]

That is what you think :\ There are TONS of businesses owned either directly or indirectly by Mormons (a simple google search will turn up huge lists) who may or may not contribute funds to OSC (and there are probably tons of businesses owned by non-Mormons who also give money to OSC). As much as I don't agree with his ideas or like what he has done, I do enjoy some of his books, and loved Shadow Complex (though there was very little story in the game).

How's this then: I want as little of my money as possible to go to OSC. Since buying this game is a sure way of contributing something to him, I won't make the purchase.

 

[bill0527]

I have always and will always maintain that the decision over whether or not money going to OSC is worth forgoing the game is entirely up to the individual. I am not trying to say everyone should agree with me on this point. What bothers me is when people ignore, mischaracterize or otherwise aim to misrepresent the entire debate. The pages I've spent responding is an attempt to clarify my view and defend the reasoning I've used to come to it, not to force others to reach the same conclusion I have.

I'm just curious KHarvey16... do you drive a car, or ever paid bus fare, or otherwise purchased gasoline in any quantity at some point in your life?

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm just curious KHarvey16... do you drive a car, or ever paid bus fare, or otherwise purchased gasoline in any quantity at some point in your life?

Ever had deja vu? This line of thought has already been discussed. I have made the decision that the game is not worth financially supporting OSC. Why this now requires me to never buy anything lest I support a factory worker who thinks black people are generally bad at math or something, I don't quite understand.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I'm just curious KHarvey16... do you drive a car, or ever paid bus fare, or otherwise purchased gasoline in any quantity at some point in your life?

Oh man, no one's tried this angle yet.

 

[wonderkins]

Sweet. Another lame attempt at eliciting a response to a false analogy.

 

[Big-E]

I'm just curious KHarvey16... do you drive a car, or ever paid bus fare, or otherwise purchased gasoline in any quantity at some point in your life?

Stop with this pure bullshit cause that is what it is. KHarvey I feel sorry for you : ( It seems that some posters just can't fathom how some people would not want to directly and knowingly profit one of Satan's spawn. If you feel that skipping this game isn't justified that is fine and guess what? You are probably still a good person but anyone who attacks people for skipping this game for moral reasons is a gigantic douchebag and is probably someone I would not want to meet in life ever.

 

[Truelize]

Still going strong eh guys? Right on.

I played some Shadow Complex, watched a movie, hung out with my wife and kids. Great night. And... you all kept this thread on the number one spot.

I kid. I kid.


But one point I would like to add. Having an opinion that rivals someone else does not make that person "Satan's spawn".
Seriously people.

Wow!

 

[sonicmj1]

Stop with this pure bullshit cause that is what it is. KHarvey I feel sorry for you : ( It seems that some posters just can't fathom how some people would not want to directly and knowingly profit one of Satan's spawn. If you feel that skipping this game isn't justified that is fine and guess what? You are probably still a good person but anyone who attacks people for skipping this game for moral reasons is a gigantic douchebag and is probably someone I would not want to meet in life ever.

I purchased Shadow Complex. Should I feel guilty for giving a small portion of my money to "one of Satan's spawn"?

I always thought "demonization" was a metaphorical term, but I guess if you want to literally portray your political opponents as demons, you could do that. Good luck changing hearts and minds that way, though.

 

[Big-E]

But one point I would like to add. Having an opinion that rivals someone else does not make that person "Satan's spawn".
Seriously people.

Wow!

When someone thinks the way OSC does while funding campaigns to strip people of rights just because who they choose to sleep with in their bedroom, then ya I can call him one of Satan's spawn because hate is all this guy promotes.

I purchased Shadow Complex. Should I feel guilty for giving a small portion of my money to "one of Satan's spawn"?

Where did I say you should feel guilty? I already said you can decide to purchase the game and in all likely hood change nothing of your moral compass. Show me where I say anyone who buys this game is a douchebag?

 

[Truelize]

When someone thinks the way OSC does while funding campaigns to strip people of rights just because who they choose to sleep with in their bedroom, then ya I can call him one of Satan's spawn because hate is all this guy promotes.

And you hate less than he does?

 

[Spoo]

Yeah, er, holy fucking shit, Batman: Orson Scott Card is not "Satan's spawn." If anything, he's sucking up to God in a way the gay community would never attempt.

Keep in mind; I hate God, and I am pro-gay -- so take that as you will.

But seriously; some guy has a different opinion than you, and now he's 'satan's spawn.'? OSC is hardly so devious. And he's a good author to boot; something most in this thread have convienantly forgotton.

 

[Spoo]

Also, in the name of fucking controversy, I'm buying a copy of Empire tommorow. Yeah, that's money to Card. Does it mean I hate, or don't support gays? No, because I love and support any man who has balls enough to say I am what I am. But after playing, and beating Shadow Complex; I'm sort of dying to get the entire story.

 

[senahorse]

Woudln't he be a sheep from God's flock if he was so opposed to homosexuality?

 

[Big-E]

And you hate less than he does?

I hate a lot of things. Corn, Sidney Crosby, Ben Rothlisburger and cheap people who don't tip knowing full well that they are expected too just to name a few. You can hate things but when you hate an entire group of people numbered in the millions just because they decide to sleep with members of their own sex and promote a campaign to strip them of rights then yes, I can call him a spawn of Satan and know without a shadow of a doubt that I am a better person than OSC.

 

[KHarvey16]

He thinks gay people are created through abuse and rape, and that laws banning homosexual acts should remain in effect to show that "those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

It's intolerance. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some opinions are vile and worthy of outright disrespect.

Also, in the name of fucking controversy, I'm buying a copy of Empire tommorow. Yeah, that's money to Card. Does it mean I hate, or don't support gays? No, because I love and support any man who has balls enough to say I am what I am. But after playing, and beating Shadow Complex; I'm sort of dying to get the entire story.

You seem so happy to set up these straw men and then go at them.

 

[Big-E]

He thinks gay people are created through abuse and rape, and that laws banning homosexual acts should remain in effect to show that "those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

It's intolerance. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but some opinions are vile and worthy of outright disrespect.

Not according to some.

 

[rainking187]

Orson Scott Card? So should we expect 50 sub par spin-offs and sequels?

 

[tenten]

However, its set in an Orson Scott Card's world he wrote. Now he has self admitted he didnt have much to do with this game, but, he will be getting profits for the game

Now why should we boycott it? Card is a notorious homophobe.

If(only if, please don't take any actions) I agree whole heartily with Orson Scott Card's words, will I be boycotted/banned on gaf?

what is wrong with being homophobe?

 

[KHarvey16]

If(only if, please don't take any actions) I agree whole heartily with Orson Scott Card's words, will I be boycotted/banned on gaf?

what is wrong with being homophobe?

If you declared your support for treating homosexuals as lesser citizens(or even, not as citizens at all), I don't believe you would enjoy posting privileges for very long.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If(only if, please don't take any actions) I agree whole heartily with Orson Scott Card's words, will I be boycotted/banned on gaf?

what is wrong with being homophobe?

What's wrong with being a racist? An anti-semite? A holocaust denier?

 

[sonicmj1]

Where did I say you should feel guilty? I already said you can decide to purchase the game and in all likely hood change nothing of your moral compass. Show me where I say anyone who buys this game is a douchebag?

You didn't. But I don't think there's a huge logical leap from "You're supporting demons if you buy Shadow Complex" to "You shouldn't buy Shadow Complex". All that is missing is the assertion, "You shouldn't support demons." It's clearly something you personally believe, or you'd be fine with buying Shadow Complex despite Card's involvement.

OSC holds positions that I find reprehensible, and he supports them with his own prodigious capital. This may shock you, but people can reach those positions without being massive douchebags. People with moral positions I disagree with are still people, with wives, children, families, and what have you. They go about their daily lives, discuss mundane things with others who may or may not agree with their positions, do their jobs, and return home to people who love them.

That doesn't mean they deserve your sympathy, or that you need to go out of your way to treat them better. But it means that they deserve as much respect as you'd give anyone else. If you're meeting someone in a battle of ideas who hasn't already been swayed to your position, demonizing others doesn't ultimately serve your cause as much as your ideas will, provided your ideas are logical and comprehensible.

If Card believes homosexuals are destroying democracy in America, and you believe he's a spawn of Satan, you aren't really proving yourself to be much more tolerant than him.

 

[Truelize]

I hate a lot of things. Corn, Sidney Crosby, Ben Rothlisburger and cheap people who don't tip knowing full well that they are expected too just to name a few. You can hate things but when you hate an entire group of people numbered in the millions just because they decide to sleep with members of their own sex and promote a campaign to strip them of rights then yes, I can call him a spawn of Satan and know without a shadow of a doubt that I am a better person than OSC.

Yeah you are definitely better than him.

Pretty sure you can't quote him saying anything as hateful as what you threw down there.

 

[KHarvey16]

Pretty sure you can't quote him saying anything as hateful as what you threw down there.

I think I can, and did. Personally I'd rather be called a spawn of satan then not fit for equal citizenship, but I'm an idealist I suppose.

 

[Big-E]

You didn't. But I don't think there's a huge logical leap from "You're supporting demons if you buy Shadow Complex" to "You shouldn't buy Shadow Complex". All that is missing is the assertion, "You shouldn't support demons." It's clearly something you personally believe, or you'd be fine with buying Shadow Complex despite Card's involvement.

OSC holds positions that I find reprehensible, and he supports them with his own prodigious capital. This may shock you, but people can reach those positions without being massive douchebags. People with moral positions I disagree with are still people, with wives, children, families, and what have you. They go about their daily lives, discuss mundane things with others who may or may not agree with their positions, do their jobs, and return home to people who love them.

That doesn't mean they deserve your sympathy, or that you need to go out of your way to treat them better. But it means that they deserve as much respect as you'd give anyone else. If you're meeting someone in a battle of ideas who hasn't already been swayed to your position, demonizing others doesn't ultimately serve your cause as much as your ideas will, provided your ideas are logical and comprehensible.

If Card believes homosexuals are destroying democracy in America, and you believe he's a spawn of Satan, you aren't really proving yourself to be much more tolerant than him.

I really don't agree with that last bit at all. There are certain opinions in life that are indefensible and even giving a shred of respect is not worth it.

 

[Truelize]

I think I can, and did. Personally I'd rather be called a spawn of satan then not fit for equal citizenship, but I'm an idealist I suppose.

He really said that gays shouldn't be considered citizens? Really? Come on.

 

[mclaren777]

Now why should we boycott it? Card is a notorious homophobe.

Just because someone opposes homosexuality doesn't mean they're a homophobe.

 

[KHarvey16]

He really said that gays shouldn't be considered citizens? Really? Come on.

"Acceptable, equal citizens," and it's a direct quote.

Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah you are definitely better than him.

Pretty sure you can't quote him saying anything as hateful as what you threw down there.

Oh, I think you could find quotes from Orson in this very thread that are worse than that.

Doesn't excuse the ridiculous "Satan's spawn" rhetoric though.

 

[Truelize]

"Acceptable, equal citizens," and it's a direct quote.



http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html

You mean you guys have read that church talk and came away with the feeling of hate? Wow!


Just because someone says that they don't believe in or support a certain behavior does not mean they hate that person.

 

[KHarvey16]

You mean you guys have read that church talk and came away with the feeling of hate? Wow!


Just because someone says that they don't believe in or support a certain behavior does not mean they hate that person.

Watching you brush aside what he actually said(and insert a nice straw man) is entertaining, I'll give you that.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

You mean you guys have read that church talk and came away with the feeling of hate? Wow!


Just because someone says that they don't believe in or support a certain behavior does not mean they hate that person.

Yes, I heard some slave-owners were awfully fond of some of their slaves, too, but even if Orson's quotes and beliefs *don't* qualify as hate per se, they are still unacceptable and detestable attitudes to have.

 

[sonicmj1]

I really don't agree with that last bit at all. There are certain opinions in life that are indefensible and even giving a shred of respect is not worth it.

I think that some opinions are indefensible. I do not think that those who hold those opinions are indefensible. If their actions are immoral, they should be held responsible, but as long as those opinions are no more than speech, in the broadest sense of the word, the speaker should be treated with respect. Otherwise, he will never consider your position, and neither will those who either support him or are on the fence. People rarely listen to those who demean them.

I don't believe there is a reasonable argument for the level of opposition to the rights of homosexuals that Card has. If such an argument existed, though, you'd never actually hear it, because you'd stop listening as soon as he said you were destroying democracy. Why listen to someone who hates you? In this case, Card may never hear the reasonable arguments refuting his position, because they come from people who call him a bigot.

It may be impossible for him to change, but there's no way to find out if you don't give him a chance to listen.

 

[Truelize]

Watching you brush aside what he actually said(and insert a nice straw man) is entertaining, I'll give you that.

Did you read it? I don't read hate. Printing it off now so I can read it again.

But he continually recognizing the "act" or "sin" that he disagrees with and teaches love for the person. Says that it is not our right to judge people but God's.

But you will interpret and get what you want out of it. Just like I will.



But oh well. I think this whole thread is sadness of course. But I whole-heartedly admit it's very hard to resist coming in here and seeing the arguments thrown around. The hate in the thread is brutal though.
I have my opinions, they don't mesh with most of everyone in here and I am extremely confident that opinions will not be changed through exchanges in a forum.
If you feel that not purchasing a video game is what you need to do to feel you are putting your support on the right side of a battle that doesn't need to be fought, then go ahead.

It's too bad though. Because it really is a great game. Take care.

 

[upandaway]

AAahhhhhh!!!!

I don't wanna get banned!!!!

 

[KHarvey16]

Did you read it? I don't read hate. Printing it off now so I can read it again.

But he continually recognizing the "act" or "sin" that he disagrees with and teaches love for the person. Says that it is not our right to judge people but God's.

But you will interpret and get what you want out of it. Just like I will.



But oh well. I think this whole thread is sadness of course. But I whole-heartedly admit it's very hard to resist coming in here and seeing the arguments thrown around. The hate in the thread is brutal though.
I have my opinions, they don't mesh with most of everyone in here and I am extremely confident that opinions will not be changed through exchanges in a forum.

Where is this hate thing coming from? You asked, with skepticism, if I was really implying OSC said gay people shouldn't be treated as equal citizens. "Really? Come on." were your words I believe. Now that I show you the direct quote where he says exactly that, strangely the goal posts have been moved. Funny, wouldn't you say?

If you feel that not purchasing a video game is what you need to do to feel you are putting your support on the right side of a battle that doesn't need to be fought, then go ahead.

Done.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I don't wanna get into things here, but shouldn't this thread fit better in the OT? It's not about the game at all, and at this point, it's not about boycotting the game either.

Backseat modding in a thread that multiple mods are watching... you're a brave boy.

 

[upandaway]

Backseat modding in a thread that multiple mods are watching... you're a brave boy.

My post was directed to the mods, as a suggestion kinda thing, y'know. But if it doesn't sit with you I'll edit it out.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

My post was directed to the mods, as a suggestion kinda thing, y'know. But if it doesn't sit with you I'll edit it out.

PMing a mod is probably a better way to do that. Just giving you some helpful tips!

 

[Nessus]

I remember noting that the developers were Mormons way back when they were called GlyphX Games and they released Advent Rising.

So this isn't exactly surprising, since the Mormon Church's official position is anti-gay and it was the single biggest donor in support of the Prop 8 referendum in California.

So all these people saying that we need to remember to separate the developers from Orson Scott Card seems a bit odd to me. I mean maybe they're great guys, but if they adhere to church dogma, they should theoretically be anti-gay too.

And if it turns out that they don't subscribe to it, I'm sorry, but you are going to be judged by the company you keep.

That all said, I still really want to get this game (going to buy a 360 for it). The amount of money OSC receives from this will be nothing compared to the royalties he continues to receive from (the possibly ghost written, possibly Hitler apologist, look it up) Ender's Game.

The game isn't being used as a platform to spout anti-gay rhetoric, and that's enough for me in this instance.

And what I've seen of OSC's thoughts and opinions on gay marriage, it doesn't strike me as hate speech, rather ridiculously poorly thought out rationalization for a foregone conclusion to maintain fidelity to church dogma.

 

[Spoo]

I remember noting that the developers were Mormons way back when they were called GlyphX Games and they released Advent Rising.

So this isn't exactly surprising, since the Mormon Church's official position is anti-gay and it was the single biggest donor in support of the Prop 8 referendum in California.

So all these people saying that we need to remember to separate the developers from Orson Scott Card seems a bit odd to me. I mean maybe they're great guys, but if they adhere to church dogma, they should theoretically be anti-gay too.

And if it turns out that they don't subscribe to it, I'm sorry, but you are going to be judged by the company you keep.

That all said, I still really want to get this game (going to buy a 360 for it). The amount of money OSC receives from this will be nothing compared to the royalties he continues to receive from (the possibly ghost written, possibly Hitler apologist, look it up) Ender's Game.

The game isn't being used as a platform to spout anti-gay rhetoric, and that's enough for me in this instance.

And what I've seen of OSC's thoughts and opinions on gay marriage, it doesn't strike me as hate speech, rather ridiculously poorly thought out rationalization for a foregone conclusion to maintain fidelity to church dogma.

Hmm, I'm Mormon an pro-gay. Do I single-handidly break your entire post? I sincerely hope so.

edit: though, please do buy Shadow Complex. Incredible game, and I promise it won't convince you to change your opinions on gay-rights lol.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Hmm, I'm Mormon an pro-gay. Do I single-handidly break your entire post? I sincerely hope so.

You only broke it up to the first "if", though it turns out that's fortunate because he more or less agrees with you in his conclusion.

 

[Spoo]

You only broke it up to the first "if", though it turns out that's fortunate because he more or less agrees with you in his conclusion.

Naw, he more or less says "fuck it, OSC makes all his money on Ender's Game" and then his post simplifies to "Orson will think what Orson will think."

Great. What I'm saying is, I represent one of those fuckers brought up in the Mormon religion -- taught that homosexuality is wrong -- yet I demand that to be reconsidered; I believe that homosexuals should have every right I have. So, then -- stop throwing everyone who works at Chair against the same chopping block as you've so casually placed OSC. Not everyone thinks the way he thinks.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Naw, he more or less says "fuck it, OSC makes all his money on Ender's Game" and then his post simplifies to "Orson will think what Orson will think."

Great. What I'm saying is, I represent one of those fuckers brought up in the Mormon religion -- taught that homosexuality is wrong -- yet I demand that to be reconsidered; I believe that homosexuals should have every right I have. So, then -- stop throwing everyone who works at Chair against the same chopping block as you've so casually placed OSC. Not everyone thinks the way he thinks.

His conclusion is that he's going to buy the game even though he doesn't agree with the guy. I suppose I misunderstood, but I thought was what you were saying as well?

P.S. You owe me a beer and you don't even know whyyyyyyy!

 

[Spoo]

P.S. You owe me a beer and you don't even know whyyyyyyy!

Haha, I'd buy you a beer regardless!!!

No, you're right. He's on my side. But it's so...frusterating, y'know? That Utahns -- ChAIR Entertainment; that we're all representative of this idea -- this assumption -- that if you're gay you're evil.

Not even. I have gay friends. Most gay people are amazing people; they deserve what they're after. Some people in my state disagree. Some people in other states disagree. Don't categorize ChAIR as a company which disagrees simply because OSC is associated... it's unfair, uncouth, and unrealistic.