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[MightyHedgehog]

Regardless of the method of pay the fact that there's a discussion around this issue will result in at least people thinking twice about working with Card in the future.

I'm unsure about how great the effect that the articles, opinion pieces, blogs, and forum threads on the subject have on anything when OSC was already a controversial figure long before now and making a stink in wider, more active and influential circles. Right now, the end result of such controversy is nearly impossible to calculate as we've no idea to what extent that it has affected sales as it is impossible to verify when there are no shelves lined with unsold copies of the game, nor warehouses filled with pallets gathering dust to incur some palpable and even measurable amount of financial damage to the game makers. We could count the number of different accounts that have posts declaring the intention of not buying due to OSC's (rather tenuous) involvement with the game, but I highly doubt that's going to be accurate or useful.

There's also the mostly unmentioned issue of, when confronted with such information, just how many people will actually care about this as a real concern when considering the purchase of the game. My guess is, some won't care about the issues raised at all, some will care but will still purchase because they don't tie art to artist, and the rest simply don't give two fucks about it because they like the demo and/or will buy based on the majority's opinion that it's a great game worthy of your money.

No, if Shadow Complex does well, as it certainly seems to have done so far given the near unanimous praise it has received from both users and critics (even after this current dust up rose up over the horizon so high that no hardcore gamer on the 'net could miss), I'd be surprised if it didn't have a sequel set in the very same universe, and even continued support for the this first title via DLC.

 

[Unicorn]

Anyone notice this?

http://www.destructoid.com/should-we-boycott-shadow-complex--145354.phtml

plagiarism?

 

[RadarScope1]

I'm amazed that after all this, there are still posters who think this is about Card "having an opinion." :lol

 

[Flynn]

I'm unsure about how great the effect that the articles, opinion pieces, blogs, and forum threads on the subject have on anything when OSC was already a controversial figure long before now and making a stink in wider, more active and influential circles.

You're absolutely right there. The sci-fi community, Slashdot and Boing Boing have all hashed this stuff out before. But here, I think, in gaming there's a chance for more awareness to trickle out about his stance. I'm pretty sure there were a quite a few posters in this very thread who hadn't heard much about his political beliefs and action until the reaction to Shadow Complex.

While I'm here I'll add that I don't think that the game merits a boycott of Epic. I think the fact that folks have been public about their distaste for Orson Scott Card's political involvements is enough to make him appear less attractive to future partners.

Because theres dozens if not hundreds of other comparable names in science fiction who don't have public lives poisoned with bigotry.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

I think that was a suggestion for people who would feel guilty about buying the game. Of course, they would like to convince all people that they should feel that way, but they are a sort of advocacy site so that's natural. Off topic: people might want to refine their stance on sweatshops for the modern era.

My questions still stands... Why?

Anyways, I've seen the word "bigotry" being thrown around and the idea that it's okay for someone to fuck with someone else's right to eat...

Interesting thread.

Interesting wouldn't be my first word to describe it, but the thread is undoubtedly that.

As for your question, I have no answer. I personally don't think the connection is strong enough to warrant a boycott, and some people are taking it to ridiculous levels. If everyone was this paranoid about having a cent of their money reaching someone like OSC, noone would ever buy anything.

Those favoring a boycott in the thread don't grasp what globalization and a global capitalist society mean in terms of economics.

It's good to see some rational thought around here.

This thread is more often than not, filled with faulty reasoning.

I love you GAF, don't change.

 

[Asmodai]

Interesting thread.

Interesting wouldn't be my first word to describe it, but the thread is undoubtedly that.

As for your question, I have no answer. I personally don't think the connection is strong enough to warrant a boycott, and some people are taking it to ridiculous levels. If everyone was this paranoid about having a cent of their money reaching someone like OSC, noone would ever buy anything.

Those favoring a boycott in the thread don't grasp what globalization and a global capitalist society mean in terms of economics.

 

[KHarvey16]

Those favoring a boycott in the thread don't grasp what globalization and a global capitalist society mean in terms of economics.

No. Those who have decided themselves not to buy the game have made the judgment that the enjoyment it would provide is not worth the cost of providing OSC with financial support. Why must people constantly extrapolate that to mean that person must ALWAYS refuse to support ANYTHING that could potentially support others with the ability to affect political change they deem negative?

Stop that.

 

[Amir0x]

Gamasutra points out one such bigot who outranks Card. I'm sure many of you reading this have played a Dragon Quest game before. The music for Dragon Quest was composed by Koichi Sugiyama, who has worked on all nine main entries in the series. Sugiyama also happens to be a member of the far right and denies that the rape of Nanking ever happened. As much as Card's opinions dismay me, that little bigot couldn't hold a candle to Sugiyama, whose views are absolutely abhorrent and disgusting. However, should we not buy a Dragon Quest game because one of the team members is a man with a horrendous opinion

I did not know that.

Fascinating.

I genuinely wonder if the people Boycotting Shadow Complex would boycott over this. I'm sure Koichi Sugiyama has contributed some of his money to support his unscrupulous ideals.

 

[KHarvey16]

I did not know that.

Fascinating.

I genuinely wonder if the people Boycotting Shadow Complex would boycott over this. I'm sure Koichi Sugiyama has contributed some of his money to support his unscrupulous ideals.

Not familiar at all with Japanese politics, but what are the ramifications of that? I mean, in the case of OSC we know his influence could contribute to the loss of freedoms for citizens of the US today. What goal would Sugiyama be trying to achieve?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Not familiar at all with Japanese politics, but what are the ramifications of that? I mean, in the case of OSC we know his influence could contribute to the loss of freedoms for citizens of the US today. What goal would Sugiyama be trying to achieve?

Sugiyama's attitudes and beliefs are disgustingly all too common here. The older generation really needs to die out because they're giving the younger generation of Japan a bad name globally.

 

[Amir0x]

Not familiar at all with Japanese politics, but what are the ramifications of that? I mean, in the case of OSC we know his influence could contribute to the loss of freedoms for citizens of the US today. What goal would Sugiyama be trying to achieve?

To further right wing nut job agendas?

If I am someone who has batshit insane ideas, and I use my money to contribute to things that are furthering hate agendas, then in theory it should be no different than what everyone is up in arms in here.

Otherwise there really is going to start being a slippery slope in this thread. I mean, just how do you define the amount of impact that necessitates a boycott? It's absurd

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Yeah, if you're for boycotting SC over OSC, you really can't in good conscience be buying DQ games. You shouldn't be supporting Nintendo, either, because some of that money goes to the Yaks.

 

[KHarvey16]

To further right wing nut job agendas?

If I am someone who has batshit insane ideas, and I use my money to contribute to things that are furthering hate agendas, then in theory it should be no different than what everyone is up in arms in here.

Otherwise there really is going to start being a slippery slope in this thread. I mean, just how do you define the amount of impact that necessitates a boycott? It's absurd

My question was sincere, I don't know anything about the climate over there at all. If someone feels the views he supports and tries to further are harmful enough to prevent them from buying any game he is involved with, that would be their choice. It's entirely a personal choice with no hard and fast rules.

 

[bill0527]

No. Those who have decided themselves not to buy the game have made the judgment that the enjoyment it would provide is not worth the cost of providing OSC with financial support. Why must people constantly extrapolate that to mean that person must ALWAYS refuse to support ANYTHING that could potentially support others with the ability to affect political change they deem negative?

Stop that.

Because when you don't apply that same reasoning to every aspect of your life, it makes you look hypocritical at worst, irrational or unreasonable at best, and its hard to take anyone like this seriously. There's an old saying about walking the walk and talking the talk. When you pick and choose what you will apply one set of principles to and completely ignore the other ones, it will de-legitimize any valid arguments you may have.

 

[Ogrekiller]

Interesting wouldn't be my first word to describe it, but the thread is undoubtedly that.

As for your question, I have no answer. I personally don't think the connection is strong enough to warrant a boycott, and some people are taking it to ridiculous levels. If everyone was this paranoid about having a cent of their money reaching someone like OSC, noone would ever buy anything.

Those favoring a boycott in the thread don't grasp what globalization and a global capitalist society mean in terms of economics.

Oh they do. At least I hope they do.

The problem with their argument is that boycotting the game means less money for OSC. Fine. But we don't know that OSC is being paid at all, since a number of factors come into play when we consider this.

1. The Empire franchise is OWNED BY CHAIR. He gets royalties for the books since he wrote them. But OSC himself was only marginally involved in the creation of Shadow Complex, maybe as a creative consultant or whatever.

2. We don't know how he is getting paid, if at all for Shadow Complex. If it was a flat fee, it doesn't matter if you buy Shadow Complex or not, he gets the money anyway. If it was a commission basis then yes, you do directly fund him.

So what this means, if he was paid, is the people that are boycotting him are sending a message that whoever is working with this guy is going to pay for working with him, and that Chair is going to be the first scapegoat for that.

The problem is of course it is so minuscule in the scale of things that it merely comes off as being petty and vindictive. They can`t see the forest for the trees, so to speak. Even if no gaming company works with OSC, he would still be rolling in revenue from his books. That's where you should target. Not boycotting some XBLA game that he was involved in writing the universe for on a gaming forum because it WILL AND HAS BACKFIRED. This is the GTA effect and the PETA effect all in one; you both discredit the pro gay marriage movement as being petty and Shadow Complex gains far more recognition that it will have gotten from MS advertising alone.

 

[KHarvey16]

Because when you don't apply that same reasoning to every aspect of your life, it makes you look hypocritical at worst, irrational or unreasonable at best, and its hard to take anyone like this seriously.

It is the same reasoning. In this case the cons outweigh the pros for me. If it came to me not buying a ticket to get on a train to go to work because someone who profits hates jews or something the equation is different.

Not once have I ever said I would refuse to support someone like OSC at any cost. It's a decision I've made in this case and this case only.

 

[Ogrekiller]

I did not know that.

Fascinating.

I genuinely wonder if the people Boycotting Shadow Complex would boycott over this. I'm sure Koichi Sugiyama has contributed some of his money to support his unscrupulous ideals.

mainly because people either don't know, or don't care. DQ's strength is in Japan anyway, and admitting war guilt there is... not high on the national agenda.

 

[Asmodai]

Not familiar at all with Japanese politics, but what are the ramifications of that? I mean, in the case of OSC we know his influence could contribute to the loss of freedoms for citizens of the US today. What goal would Sugiyama be trying to achieve?

He is most similar to a Holocaust denier. He denies that the Rape of Nanking ever occurred, a horrible atrocity committed by the Japanese in the Second World War. He does it for the same reasons that other racists and bigots try to deny historical events that they feel work against their cause.

In my opinion, he is far, far worse than OSC, that is certain.

The worst thing OSC said, however, hasn't yet been quoted in this thread. If it has, I haven't seen it. He said basically that he would work to "destroy" any government which allowed gay marriage, which is really an endorsement and justification for terrorism.

Both of them are scumbags, and I would never want to give any of them a cent of my money. But as I said earlier, in a globalized capitalist society, avoiding that is inevitable.

For example, I bought Final Fantasy X years ago. The profits from my sale went to the same company that this horrible person works for. So even though I would never intentionally give him any of my money, he might have got a miniscule amount of it regardless.

mainly because people either don't know, or don't care. DQ's strength is in Japan anyway, and the will to admit war guilt there is... meager to say the least.

The Japanese aren't exactly eager to write the full truth in the school history textbooks they issue. There are disturbing signs of xenophobia and racism in Japan even today.

 

[Amir0x]

mainly because people either don't know, or don't care. DQ's strength is in Japan anyway, and the will to admit war guilt there is... meager to say the least.

Among now informed GAFers, there should be no such internal conflict.

I should think if such things impact a gaming favorite of theirs, they would still follow their over-the-top reaction to its logical conclusion.

 

[Ogrekiller]

Among now informed GAFers, there should be no such internal conflict.

I should think if such things impact a gaming favorite of theirs, they would still follow their over-the-top reaction to its logical conclusion.

Eh, when NinjaFusion decided to boycott Epic, does he boycott all games that use the UE engine as well? Does he extend that to those companies that use the UE engine? Their developers? The platforms they are on?

Probably not.

 

[CabbageRed]

Because when you don't apply that same reasoning to every aspect of your life, it makes you look hypocritical at worst, irrational or unreasonable at best, and its hard to take anyone like this seriously. There's an old saying about walking the walk and talking the talk. When you pick and choose what you will apply one set of principles to and completely ignore the other ones, it will de-legitimize any valid arguments you may have.

Everyone is a hypocrite and there is nothing wrong with being pragmatic enough to make choices by balancing ones ideals, wants, and needs. "All or nothing" is rarely realistic and crushes morality since you cannot hope to change/know everything. I would prefer to practical and make at least some difference, rather than not making an effort at all because ideals don't survive when exposed to the real world.

 

[deadatom]

Eh, when NinjaFusion decided to boycott Epic, does he boycott all games that use the UE engine as well? Does he extend that to those companies that use the UE engine? Their developers? The platforms they are on?

Probably not.

Oh yay it's the "if you are gonna boycott Israel, then throw out your pc" line of arguments that are so tired and lame they make me wanna puke. Not even people who started this stupid line of argument still use it.

You are dumb.

It's tantamount to asking a person to boycott the air they breath since "evil guy breathes the same air".

PS I don't give a crap about the ue3 engine. It is not a good engine for the ps3.
PPS stop posting

 

[Ogrekiller]

Oh yay it's the "if you are gonna boycott Israel, then throw out your pc" line of arguments that are so tired and lame they make me wanna puke. Not even people who started this stupid line of argument still use it.

You are dumb.

It's tantamount to asking a person to boycott the air they breath since "evil guy breathes the same air".

PS I don't give a crap about the ue3 engine. It is not a good engine for the ps3.
PPS stop posting

So this argument of not buying Shadow Complex because it benefits OSC- that should be thrown out the window as well huh?

Because it was ninjafusion who said that he would be boycotting Epic because they bought chair. This has nothing to do with you. So if he's boycotting Epic, he should put his money where his mouth is and boycott them too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17218955&postcount=639

The line of reasoning leading to this boycott is so poorly thought out the thread was originally locked- for good reason too. Unfortunately no one seems to remember this little fact.

So let's pose a question: does your boycott stop at shadow complex, or does that extend to all of chair's past and future products, or as far as epic because they bought chair, or to most of the industry because they use Epic software?

If this is a one off at shadow complex- fine. I'm not criticizing that anymore. Chair? Fine. They secured the rights to the Ender's game video game. I can see where people can actually make a case here. Epic onward is your air argument.

 

[deadatom]

So this argument of not buying Shadow Complex because it benefits OSC- that should be thrown out the window as well huh?

Because it was ninjafusion who said that he would be boycotting Epic because they bought chair. This has nothing to do with you. So if he's boycotting Epic, he should put his money where his mouth is and boycott them too.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17218955&postcount=639

The line of reasoning leading to this boycott is so poorly thought out the thread was originally locked- for good reason too. Unfortunately no one seems to remember this little fact.

Here is the deal. Those people who "don't get it" and try to argue why this is "stupid" and other such nonsense seem to be people who lack general cognitive skills. Those people who "get it" either
a) avoided posting in this thread after it reached x pages of insanity.
b) are stubborn and hope that they can reason with the other side into seeing things from thier own perspective.
c) knows the truth about reasoning with said other side is like shouting at a wall. Still does it anyways for shits and giggles.

I like to shout at walls from time to time but today i'm horribly sick. You can take youre nonarguments to someone who cares more then me.

PS you are the real hypocrit. I know you won't "get it". People like you never do.
PPS you should get a strawman avatar. Since that's what you seem to like to do.

 

[Asmodai]

Here is the deal. Those people who "don't get it" and try to argue why this is "stupid" and other such nonsense seem to be people who lack general cognitive skills. Those people who "get it" either
a) avoided posting in this thread after it reached x pages of insanity.
b) are stubborn and hope that they can reason with the other side into seeing things from thier own perspective.
c) knows the truth about reasoning with said other side is like shouting at a wall. Still does it anyways for shits and giggles.

I like to shout at walls from time to time but today i'm horribly sick. You can take youre nonarguments to someone who cares more then me.

PS you are the real hypocrit. I know you won't "get it". People like you never do.
PPS you should get a strawman avatar. Since that's what you seem to like to do.

In every single post I've read of yours, you are attacking another poster with ad hominem.

I doubt very much that anyone is going to bother trying to discuss anything with you if you have an attitude like that.

 

[Smash88]

Anyone notice this?

http://www.destructoid.com/should-we-boycott-shadow-complex--145354.phtml

plagiarism?

What from here? No. It was on Kotaku a couple of days ago linking to a another forum as well. The article is a long read if anyone is interested.

Kotaku Article Link

This topic is widespread over many gaming sites/blogs/forums/etc...

I find it interesting what the writer said as well: "Shadow Complex writer Peter David offered it: 'If anyone wants to boycott the game and thus damage me or Chair while doing nothing to change Orson's opinions, that's naturally their right. Or...They can display the sort of tolerance for someone who is different from them that they feel is lacking in Orson and thus prove they're better. Your choice.'"

 

[Jackson]

I'm boycotting highways. Hitler and his nazi party were the ones to to put national highways into use in Germany. Eisenhower loved them so much when he was that that by the time he became president he made sure USA would have them too!

Local roads ftw!

Spoiler

I'm not being very helpful.

 

[laesperanzapaz]

Not buying a high quality game X that you would otherwise have bought.....because its developer did business with a guy whose views you really abhor

Yeah, and those tens or hundreds of guys under Chair who worked their ass off, and who DIDN'T partake in the decision to hire OCS? "IM SORRY FOLKS, I JUST WANT TO 'MAKE A POINT' TO CHAIR, SUCKS FOR YOU GUYS"

That's rich


And with this DQ revelation, I wonder what those like Dragona would react? After all, as Amirox points out, the DQ right wing guy would surely have used his money to further other crazy agendas

 

[KHarvey16]

Not buying a high quality game X that you would otherwise have bought.....because its developer did business with a guy whose views you really abhor

Yeah, and those tens or hundreds of guys under Chair who worked their ass off, and who DIDN'T partake in the decision to hire OCS? "IM SORRY FOLKS, I JUST WANT TO 'MAKE A POINT' TO CHAIR, SUCKS FOR YOU GUYS"

That's rich


And with this DQ revelation, I wonder what those like Dragona would react? After all, as Amirox points out, the DQ right wing guy would surely have used his money to further other crazy agendas

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why.....

 

[confused]

If you like the game buy it, if not don't. Keep politricks the fuck out of my gaming !!

 

[shintoki]

Gamasutra points out one such bigot who outranks Card. I'm sure many of you reading this have played a Dragon Quest game before. The music for Dragon Quest was composed by Koichi Sugiyama, who has worked on all nine main entries in the series. Sugiyama also happens to be a member of the far right and denies that the rape of Nanking ever happened. As much as Card's opinions dismay me, that little bigot couldn't hold a candle to Sugiyama, whose views are absolutely abhorrent and disgusting. However, should we not buy a Dragon Quest game because one of the team members is a man with a horrendous opinion

The West has been fighting that cause for years now... :lol

 

[TheHeretic]

I bought Shadow Complex, and am loving it, but no doubt this gives me some negativity towards the experience. Homophobia strikes close to home for me, and i'd rather avoid supporting people with views like that.

At the same time SC was obviously developed by a lot of people, and there are probably people with awful perspectives working on just about every game out there. Boycotting the game doesn't make sense to me, but i'm a little less enthusiastic about it all now.

 

[laesperanzapaz]

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why.....

i just blew your mind didnt i

 

[McBradders]

I find it interesting what the writer said as well: "Shadow Complex writer Peter David offered it: 'If anyone wants to boycott the game and thus damage me or Chair while doing nothing to change Orson's opinions, that's naturally their right. Or...They can display the sort of tolerance for someone who is different from them that they feel is lacking in Orson and thus prove they're better. Your choice.'"

Bolding this because it probably should have been done so by Smash already

 

[Smash88]

Bolding this because it probably should have been done so by Smash already

Fixed. Sowwy.

 

[McBradders]

Fixed. Sowwy.

No worries, it's just a very thinking good point amongst all the outrage and confusion and deserves its moment in the sun, however brief ^_^

Also; wow at the DQ composer.

More fuel to the seperation of artist from their art fire.

 

[procrastinator]

Is the Empire IP/series owned by Card or by Chair entertainment? As far as I can tell it seems to be owned by Chair, who asked Card to write a novel for it. If this is so, is it not more likely that Card would be paying royalties to Chair rather than the other way around?

I also fail to see why Card would get any money at all from Shadow Complex, seeing as he doesnt have much at all to do with the game.

 

[web01]

Kinda silly boycotting a game over one persons opinion.

If anything there is more of a case for boycotting epic games because of the awful glitched state may of their titles have have been released in and with unplayable online because of no region search options.

Not that I am saying we should do that either but its a better reason.

 

[tahrikmili]

I couldn't care less about his stand on homosexuality, Card is a good writer.

Shadow Complex is (supposedly) a good game that has nothing to do with the matter.

Thread is stupid.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Kinda silly boycotting a game over one persons opinion.

I'm really, really glad I'm not one of the people who have to defend themselves against idiots like this who haven't bothered reading the thread.

 

[TheHeretic]

Kinda silly boycotting a game over one persons opinion.

Its not just the fact that he has an opinion. Hes a vocal bigot, supporting the discrimination of homosexuals.

 

[KHarvey16]

Thread is stupid.

Before calling a thread stupid, try and read it. Have a dictionary handy if it proves too difficult.

 

[wolfmat]

I'm boycotting highways. Hitler and his nazi party were the ones to to put national highways into use in Germany.

The first sort-of highway was opened for transportation in 1921. Hitler had nothing to do with that.
The first actual highway was completed in 1932 (Link).
The next actual highway was completed in 1933.

Hitler was the ruler of Germany from 1933 to 1945.

He really did build a fuckton of Autobahns, but he's not the "Autobahn dude". That is a myth.

 

[tahrikmili]

Before calling a thread stupid, try and read it. Have a dictionary handy if it proves too difficult.

I read it. I still fail to see how punishing the other dozen people who worked on the game for the ideas of one man is not stupid. Especially when the ideas are not even remotely relevant to said game.

Feel free to boycott it and see how far you go, however. I don't have enough time to fight windmills on the interwebs.

 

[Klytus]

To all the people saying "if it's a good game, what does the politics matter?"

The creator of this game's universe holds some pretty loathesome viewpoints, and actively assisted in getting some hard-earned legally obtained rights stripped away from a group of people.

Can you honestly say that knowing this, you will still be able to play that game without your enjoyment of it being horribly tainted in some way? Because if you can, and you are completely able to separate the gameplay from the controversy around it... Well, I salute you and your soulless robot creators, because I certainly can't.

 

[dark10x]

I'll tell ya what does suck...the framerate. 30 fps with slowdown in a side scroller?! Come on, Chair! First Orson Scott Card, now this?!?

 

[TheHeretic]

To all the people saying "if it's a good game, what does the politics matter?"

The creator of this game's universe holds some pretty loathesome viewpoints, and actively assisted in getting some hard-earned legally obtained rights stripped away from a group of people.

Can you honestly say that knowing this, you will still be able to play that game without your enjoyment of it being horribly tainted in some way? Because if you can, and you are completely able to separate the gameplay from the controversy around it... Well, I salute you and your soulless robot creators, because I certainly can't.

Yeah I definitely can't. Theres so many great science fiction writers out there, considering the games plot is lousy anyway it raises the question of why him.

 

[Cheech]

Context is meaningless, huh? I can't stand hyperbolic use of Hitler's name and I can't stand hyperbolic reaction to use of his name either.

The URL you seek is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

It's actually a fun read. Now, consider how many times Hitler has been brought up in this thread. It's an indication that the discussion is slim pickings as far as valuable or interesting content.

Also, I've noticed an overuse of the word "hyperbole" in this thread, another indication that wheels are being spun.

 

[acm2000]

so did all you people boycott monkey island? and tales of monkey island? (reused old jokes) orson scott card wrote the insult sword fighting stuff in those

 

[kamorra]

Before calling a thread stupid, try and read it. Have a dictionary handy if it proves too difficult.

Do you think that all the little personal attacks you add to all your post will help to advance this discussion? Look, I think you have a good point and I share you view that gays should have the same rights than any other people but you are way to aggressive. Didn't you say that it should be everyone's own decision to boycott or not? I lost count of how many time you questioned someones reading skills in this thread. Most of them do understand what you trying to say but they still don't agree.