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[dollartaco]

I bought the game without knowing it was based on OSC's work. I probably wouldn't have otherwise. Oh well. Great game, though!

And who cares if a consumer "punishes" the developer? They made the choice to go in on a game with a guy whose views are objectionable. If 2D Boy made a brilliant game that was funded by the Church of Scientology, I would probably not buy that, either.

 

[Ponn]

Ponn you need to stop punishing me by not buying me a new 360.

Did I have the intention of buying you one? If not, then your attempt at mocking me with word games fail.

And if we want to follow down that rabbit hole, sure, you could say its not "punishing" someone by not giving them money you never intended to give them to begin with. But in that scenario that would make everyone claiming to be "giving up something to cling to their morals" liars and fake. Wouldn't want that, now would we?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Did I have the intention of buying you one? If not, then your attempt at mocking me with word games fail.

And if we want to follow down that rabbit hole, sure, you could say its not "punishing" someone by not giving them money you never intended to give them to begin with. But in that scenario that would make everyone claiming to be "giving up something to cling to their morals" liars and fake. Wouldn't want that, now would we?

PONN

STOP PUNISHING ME YOU A-HOLE

 

[Wrestlemania]

And if we want to follow down that rabbit hole, sure, you could say its not "punishing" someone by not giving them money you never intended to give them to begin with. But in that scenario that would make everyone claiming to be "giving up something to cling to their morals" liars and fake. Wouldn't want that, now would we?

I don't see how that follows. Could you clarify?

I just think it's a silly argument against someone not buying the game. Nobody would argue that I should buy a game that has good music but terrible gameplay because otherwise I'd be punishing the musicians involved.

 

[mik]

And who cares if a consumer "punishes" the developer? They made the choice to go in on a game with a guy whose views are objectionable.

Three times, by the way (Advent Rising, Shadow Complex, and the forthcoming Ender's Game). ChAIR is based in Provo and is founded by BYU grads. There are some pretty good-sized dots that you can risk connecting--or not.

 

[daycru]

It is awesome that after thousands of posts, there are still people who don't understand the thread. I get that this is a video game message board but come on.

 

[Ponn]

PONN

STOP PUNISHING ME YOU A-HOLE

umad

I just think it's a silly argument against someone not buying the game. Nobody would argue that I should buy a game that has good music but terrible gameplay because otherwise I'd be punishing the musicians involved.

Because the difference is tangible. You're not buying that game on the merits that are in the game, in that case the music.

 

[plagiarize]

i don't agree with the guys views, but to turn on him would mean i would have to turn on my second favourite game of all time.

no not Shadow Complex, The Secret of Monkey Island.

if you've ever said 'How appropriate, you fight like a cow!' you were quoting Orson Scott Card who wrote the insults for the sword fighting.

hows about instead of boycotting a game (or games) that have nothing to do with the gay rights causes, we instead publicize his stupid views so that down the line people think twice about working with the guy, while simultaneously we champion the gay rights cause.

it does seem a bit like sinking the whole ship because of one of the crew being an asshole to boycott. i would be far from surprised to find out that one or more people working at Chair were themselves gay, and I'm sure dozens have differing views on gay rights to Card.

it isn't the story that makes the game good either. it's crap. it's all the hard work of the people that don't publicly try and stop gay people getting equal rights that made the game good.

 

[Fourth Stooge]

I have contributed to the stupidity of this thread, in some ways intentionally (and in other ways it probably just comes naturally to me). I am not apologizing though.

I just don't take it seriously. Why should I? I see it as more Mormon-bashing. Were Mormons the only ones who voted for Prop 8 (as if all of THEM vote the same way)? Were they the only ones who donated money? I have seen no calls to boycott Latino businesses, even those that donated in support of Prop 8. No protests at black churches. None. Yet both groups helped decide the vote even more than Mormons. The focus is on a rather small convenient minority. If there had been no Mormons in California, guess what? No difference. Those other two groups...well...let's not go there.

But I will go there. Perhaps it is because both blacks and Latinos tend to vote Democratic, and the Prop 8 opponents don't want to anger their usual allies. If that is the case and you are unwilling to speak out as forcefully against your usual allies, the issue must not be that important. Other issues are apparently more important to you so I will join you in those issues first. Pardon me if I do not admire your courage and join your cause. I see too much convenience and temporizing.

There is just this obsessive blaming of Mormons (how many times have "Mormons" been mentioned in this thread as if they were some alien creatures?). If you need any evidence of that, look at post #22 of this thread. A link to boycottmormonbusiness.com. A list of people of a certain religion. Lists like that make me nervous. The people who make lists like that, and those who follow them, make me even more nervous. Notice it is not "boycott those who opposed Prop 8." Just the Mormons, even if they individually took no position at all in the vote or voted against. It is a boycott of a religion. I see no lists of other groups that favored Prop 8. Hmmm...if there was a list of gay businesses...what would be the reaction...

Why isn't there a list of Nation of Islam businesses? I already know the answer. We all know the answer.

There are roughly 500,000 Mormons in California. That's about 1% of the state. I doubt that either their voting power or their powers of persuasion tipped the vote on Prop 8. Yet they are being blamed. Over and over again in this thread, it has been mentioned that Card is a Mormon. That is not even central to this issue so why mention it? Unless it is to identify him as someone different. And we have to oppose people who are different, don't we? He may be doing the same thing even if he was a black Muslim.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/its_time_to_speak_out_against.html

I don't disagree with your right to boycott. I disagree with the selectivity of the boycott. That is why I think it is a joke.

Pardon me if I do not praise you for your convictions. If you're really serious, go tell the Nation of Islam what you think of them. Go protest their meetings. Try to cut off their funds too.

 

[CabbageRed]

...if you HAD the intention of buying the game based on it being a good game and then decided not to because of OSC then the end result is the developers not getting that money for the work they put in the game. Period. End of story. Stop with word games people, that is that.

Yes. Stop, end of story, and so on. They decided that they didn't want a product which makes their choice not to buy it the product perfectly reasonable. I think that it is also pretty obvious that having people frequently call their choice a "punishment" would be irksome, especially when it touches on a larger matter that is dear to them. What isn't obvious is how they are playing word games.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

dumb dumb dumb-dumb dummmmb

 

[Wrestlemania]

Yes. Stop, end of story, and so on. They decided that they didn't want a product which makes their choice not to buy it the product perfectly reasonable. I think that it is also pretty obvious that having people frequently call their choice a "punishment" would be irksome, especially when it touches on a larger matter that is dear to them. What isn't obvious it how they are playing word games.

Exactly. I honestly have no idea what his point it.

 

[Klytus]

I'm not gay therefore I give a rats ass about gay marriage.

This is by far the most depressing statement in a particularly depressing thread.

 

[Doytch]

I have contributed to the stupidity of this thread, in some ways intentionally (and in other ways it probably just comes naturally to me). I am not apologizing though.

I just don't take it seriously. Why should I? I see it as more Mormon-bashing. Were Mormons the only ones who voted for Prop 8 (as if all of THEM vote the same way)? Were they the only ones who donated money? I have seen no calls to boycott Latino businesses, even those that donated in support of Prop 8. No protests at black churches. None. Yet both groups helped decide the vote even more than Mormons. The focus is on a rather small convenient minority. If there had been no Mormons in California, guess what? No difference. Those other two groups...well...let's not go there.

But I will go there. Perhaps it is because both blacks and Latinos tend to vote Democratic, and the Prop 8 opponents don't want to anger their usual allies. If that is the case and you are unwilling to speak out as forcefully against your usual allies, the issue must not be that important. Other issues are apparently more important to you so I will join you in those issues first. Pardon me if I do not admire your courage and join your cause. I see too much convenience and temporizing.

There is just this obsessive blaming of Mormons (how many times have "Mormons" been mentioned in this thread as if they were some alien creatures?). If you need any evidence of that, look at post #22 of this thread. A link to boycottmormonbusiness.com. A list of people of a certain religion. Lists like that make me nervous. The people who make lists like that, and those who follow them, make me even more nervous. Notice it is not "boycott those who opposed Prop 8." Just the Mormons, even if they individually took no position at all in the vote or voted against. It is a boycott of a religion. I see no lists of other groups that favored Prop 8. Hmmm...if there was a list of gay businesses...what would be the reaction...

Why isn't there a list of Nation of Islam businesses? I already know the answer. We all know the answer.

There are roughly 500,000 Mormons in California. That's about 1% of the state. I doubt that either their voting power or their powers of persuasion tipped the vote on Prop 8. Yet they are being blamed. Over and over again in this thread, it has been mentioned that Card is a Mormon. That is not even central to this issue so why mention it? Unless it is to identify him as someone different. And we have to oppose people who are different, don't we? He may be doing the same thing even if he was a black Muslim.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/its_time_to_speak_out_against.html

I don't disagree with your right to boycott. I disagree with the selectivity of the boycott. That is why I think it is a joke.

Pardon me if I do not praise you for your convictions. If you're really serious, go tell the Nation of Islam what you think of them. Go protest their meetings. Try to cut off their funds too.

Quoting so people read.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Just a point that I keep seeing brought up and keeps getting responded to with "read the thread" or "ignorant" or "stupid" in the case of the bolded part.

You can use any semantics you want to, any phrases you can make up to try and make yourself feel better or try to seperate yourself from being in a position of "punishing people" all you want but the end consequences are the same. You can say you are not punishing people and you can say to all your hearts content all you want to do is keep whatever unknown amount OSC is even making off of all this from going into his pockets but it doesn't change the fact that if you HAD the intention of buying the game based on it being a good game and then decided not to because of OSC then the end result is the developers not getting that money for the work they put in the game. Period. End of story. Stop with word games people, that is that.

It's your choice to boycott, but for crying out loud accept the TOTAL consequences of your actions both good and bad and stop telling people "they don't get it" just because they don't want to play your little words games to make yourselves feel better.

So nazi officers weren't guilty of warcrimes after all.

 

[mik]

Notice it is not "boycott those who opposed Prop 8." Just the Mormons, even if they individually took no position at all in the vote or voted against. It is a boycott of a religion

That's because the religion--in other words, the leadership of the church--took a position. So you boycott the entity that did so. It wasn't just the literal votes of Latter-Day-Saints that could have swayed the Prop 8 voting. It's also the millions of dollars the church contributed to advertise, promote, and "educate."

 

[dollartaco]

I have contributed to the stupidity of this thread, in some ways intentionally (and in other ways it probably just comes naturally to me). I am not apologizing though.

I just don't take it seriously. Why should I? I see it as more Mormon-bashing. Were Mormons the only ones who voted for Prop 8 (as if all of THEM vote the same way)? Were they the only ones who donated money? I have seen no calls to boycott Latino businesses, even those that donated in support of Prop 8. No protests at black churches. None. Yet both groups helped decide the vote even more than Mormons. The focus is on a rather small convenient minority. If there had been no Mormons in California, guess what? No difference. Those other two groups...well...let's not go there.

But I will go there. Perhaps it is because both blacks and Latinos tend to vote Democratic, and the Prop 8 opponents don't want to anger their usual allies. If that is the case and you are unwilling to speak out as forcefully against your usual allies, the issue must not be that important. Other issues are apparently more important to you so I will join you in those issues first. Pardon me if I do not admire your courage and join your cause. I see too much convenience and temporizing.

There is just this obsessive blaming of Mormons (how many times have "Mormons" been mentioned in this thread as if they were some alien creatures?). If you need any evidence of that, look at post #22 of this thread. A link to boycottmormonbusiness.com. A list of people of a certain religion. Lists like that make me nervous. The people who make lists like that, and those who follow them, make me even more nervous. Notice it is not "boycott those who opposed Prop 8." Just the Mormons, even if they individually took no position at all in the vote or voted against. It is a boycott of a religion. I see no lists of other groups that favored Prop 8. Hmmm...if there was a list of gay businesses...what would be the reaction...

Why isn't there a list of Nation of Islam businesses? I already know the answer. We all know the answer.

There are roughly 500,000 Mormons in California. That's about 1% of the state. I doubt that either their voting power or their powers of persuasion tipped the vote on Prop 8. Yet they are being blamed. Over and over again in this thread, it has been mentioned that Card is a Mormon. That is not even central to this issue so why mention it? Unless it is to identify him as someone different. And we have to oppose people who are different, don't we? He may be doing the same thing even if he was a black Muslim.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/its_time_to_speak_out_against.html

I don't disagree with your right to boycott. I disagree with the selectivity of the boycott. That is why I think it is a joke.

Pardon me if I do not praise you for your convictions. If you're really serious, go tell the Nation of Islam what you think of them. Go protest their meetings. Try to cut off their funds too.

Boo hoo.

 

[Ponn]

Yes. Stop, end of story, and so on. They decided that they didn't want a product which makes their choice not to buy it the product perfectly reasonable. I think that it is also pretty obvious that having people frequently call their choice a "punishment" would be irksome, especially when it touches on a larger matter that is dear to them. What isn't obvious is how they are playing word games.

The point of contention in this place then is if you truly think the reason for not buying it, if you truly were going to buy it, is "perfectly reasonable". And since people seem to be glossing over the idea of that or completely ignoring when someone gives an answer to the question (like in Wrestlemania's case) you are going to have people continue to view it as a "punishment" and by using word games and calling people ignorant and assuming the "victory" of it being reasonable is the problem at hand.

So nazi officers weren't guilty of warcrimes after all.

OH FFS!

 

[bill0527]

Im not black! I could give a shit about minority equality!!

Spoiler

Im not gay, either. I still care.

This is bullshit. What you're doing here is the same thing that Kharvey and others are accusing everyone else of being WRONG to do.

You're taking one argument and extrapolating something else out of it.

Just because you believe in X, it must also logically conclude that you believe in Y.

Frankly, both sides of this argument have more in common than they do in their differences.

You're all nothing more than 2 different sides of the same coin and this is why this country is just about as divided as I've ever seen it in my 35 years. The demagoguery and hypocrisy by the extremists from both sides have completely drowned out any semblance of sanity that can be found in the middle.

 

[Mooreberg]

Oh, if your boycott extends to Epic as well, be sure to boycott these companies as well, since they license the UE engines, which will fill up Epic's coffers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Oh, and boycott these people as well, they're partnered with Epic.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/partner-program.php

There're probably more out there, but here's a rudimentary list of companies to boycott:

Epic
EA
Take 2
THQ
Ubisoft
Square Enix
Codemasters
SOE
Koei Tecmo
Microsoft Game Studios

:lol

We're supposed to buy their games and then smash the discs first, correct?

 

[bill0527]

Boo hoo.

Fucking brilliant response.

We should all have been so bold to just type out those 2 little words to the proponents of this thread and this boycott.

But then we would probably have lost our posting priveledges here at this forum.

 

[dollartaco]

Fucking brilliant response.

We should all have been so bold to just type out those 2 little words to the proponents of this thread and this boycott.

But then we would probably have lost our posting priveledges here at this forum.

Sorry! I'll try to be more receptive to complaints about hispanics and the Nation of Islam, both of which have nothing to do with OSC.

 

[Wrestlemania]

or completely ignoring when someone gives an answer to the question (like in Wrestlemania's case)

What have I ignored?

 

[dollartaco]

What have I ignored?

The poor developers who slaved to make you a game, only to see you and others spit right in their face!

 

[Ponn]

What have I ignored?

.

I just think it's a silly argument against someone not buying the game. Nobody would argue that I should buy a game that has good music but terrible gameplay because otherwise I'd be punishing the musicians involved.

my reply

Because the difference is tangible. You're not buying that game on the merits that are in the game, in that case the music.

 

[soldat7]

That's because the religion--in other words, the leadership of the church--took a position. So you boycott the entity that did so.

Last time I checked, it wasn't just the Mormon leadership that took this stance. But if you're going to boycott Mormons exclusively, you might as well boycott the famous ones:

Famous Mormons

I'd start with Rick Schroder.

 

[dollartaco]

He may not have replied because it wasn't a particularly good counter-argument. If I didn't like the music in the game -- many games have terrible music -- I might buy it anyway. If I felt that my money would go back to a contributor who vocally opposes my most heartfelt ideals, I probably wouldn't.

 

[Wrestlemania]

.



my reply

Yeah, sorry, I just didn't think it really warranted a reply. I didn't ignore it.

 

[Ponn]

He may not have replied because it wasn't a particularly good counter-argument. If I didn't like the music in the game -- many games have terrible music -- I might buy it anyway. If I felt that my money would go back to a contributor who vocally opposes my most heartfelt ideals, I probably wouldn't.

And thats where the breakdown is. One of those things have to do with the actual game in question, one of them doesn't, thats the difference. Where as some people may find that jump reasonable, others don't.

 

[Wrestlemania]

And thats where the breakdown is. One of those things have to do with the actual game, one of them doesn't, thats the difference. Where as some people may find that jump reasonable, others don't.

Which is why I didn't respond. I just don't make the distinction.

 

[dollartaco]

And thats where the breakdown is. One of those things have to do with the actual game, one of them doesn't, thats the difference. Where as some people may find that jump reasonable, others don't.

I think most people find that jump reasonable, actually. People boycott things all the time, from the Rosa Parks-inspired bus boycott to Dixie Chicks albums.

EDIT: I should add that those examples are larger cases of boycotts that aren't representative of the ones we all make on an individual basis.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Last time I checked, it wasn't just the Mormon leadership that took this stance. But if you're going to boycott Mormons exclusively, you might as well boycott the famous ones:

Famous Mormons

I'd start with Rick Schroder.

Actually, looking at that site, it would be pretty easy to avoid Mormons completely. You wouldn't miss out on much. Scientology, they ain't.

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

To me the game represents work of a group of people. OSC makes up so little of it. If you want to boycott him, boycott his books, since he is the sole source of the material. Chair put their heart and soul into the game and I feel are unfairly being affected by one persons beliefs.

 

[plagiarize]

Actually, looking at that site, it would be pretty easy to avoid Mormons completely. You wouldn't miss out on much. Scientology, they ain't.

yeah, you'd only miss Civilization, Age of Empires, Doom, Doom II and Quake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Petersen

that's the fact, when you look deep enough at these kinds of things you see the futility in boycotting.

when you boycott the only message you send is 'I didn't want to buy your product'. you say nothing of why. if like me you feel strongly about gay rights, get out their and champion there cause. there are better ways you can send that message out. write to your senator. heck, write to the developers, or OSC himself.

all those things will do a LOT more than boycotting the game, and they won't cause undue harm to people guilty by associations that may or may not exist.

 

[TheSeks]

I think in order to respond to the "points" he's making most would have to care about his cause. Most people here are not gay so they don't feel very strongly about his cause.

For instance let me give you a example. He may very well make valid arguments about Orson Scott Card being anti-Gay. However I don't care if he is anti-gay. Most people here don't care if he is anti-Gay, I've already bought the game, and if I knew he was anti-gay then I would of still bought the game.

Does that mean I hate gay people? NO it does not. It just means I don't care if other people do because it doesn't effect me and I would certainly not punish myself missing out on a great game because he offends someone else.

Jesus Christ. Anyone that holds this view point is stupid. Why?

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."

Wikipedia.

The point, if you're missing it: "Oh, I'm not gay, therefore I couldn't give a rats ass if OSC spouts hateful views and trys to stomp their rights" reeks of everything that has made humanity a shithole.

Don't open your mouth anymore, please. Because I'm sure governments/people with agendas will be more than happy to take your rights away. I'm sure you'd start bitching if a "anti-straight" coalition suddenly popped up in governments and started to tag straights and remove your right to fuck and have kids. (This is a bad example and hilariously far-fetched, but its point is what I'm getting at)

Apathy is what gives bad people the right to keep doing bad things.

By all means, buy the game if you want. But to go "people don't care and will continue to buy the game, just like I don't care!" is sad and pathetic. At least acknowledge and ride the developers for co-opping with a hateful person.

wow, this thread is still going?

Wow, you're still posting?

Don't like the thread, don't click on it and reply. It'll die eventually. Simple.

 

[dollartaco]

To me the game represents work of a group of people. OSC makes up so little of it. If you want to boycott him, boycott his books, since he is the sole source of the material. Chair put their heart and soul into the game and I feel are unfairly being affected by one persons beliefs.

Then maybe they shouldn't advertise it all over their game.

 

[plagiarize]

Don't open your mouth anymore, please. Because I'm sure governments/people with agendas will be more than happy to take your rights away. I'm sure you'd start bitching if a "anti-straight" coalition suddenly popped up in governments and started to tag straights and remove your right to fuck and have kids. (This is a bad example and hilariously far-fetched, but its point is what I'm getting at)

that's 'speak up for' and not boycott one random product associated with a guy and also worked on by dozens of people with differing views sending no understandable message.

speak up for gay rights. do something SENSIBLE to compete the viewpoints of people like Card. do something that will actually have a chance of making a difference.

 

[Wrestlemania]

To me the game represents work of a group of people. OSC makes up so little of it. If you want to boycott him, boycott his books, since he is the sole source of the material. Chair put their heart and soul into the game and I feel are unfairly being affected by one persons beliefs.

It's unfortunate, but what else would they expect by getting into bed with someone with such divisive views and affiliations? I don't have a great deal of sympathy for them.

 

[plagiarize]

It's unfortunate, but what else would they expect by getting into bed with someone with such divisive views and affiliations? I don't have a great deal of sympathy for them.

so do you boycott everything which had a Catholic working on it?

how do you decide what to make an example of and what not to?

boycotts don't do anything. they just make the people doing it feel better about themselves. if that's what you want to achieve, have at it.

 

[Wrestlemania]

that's 'speak up for' and not boycott one random product associated with a guy and also worked on by dozens of people with differing views sending no understandable message.

speak up for gay rights. do something SENSIBLE to compete the viewpoints of people like Card. do something that will actually have a chance of making a difference.

Why isn't this sensible? If people boycotting the game affected sales of the game enough that Chair decided to end their affiliation with him then that's one less revenue stream for him to funnel into the groups those boycotting are opposed to.

 

[Wrestlemania]

so do you boycott everything which had a Catholic working on it?

how do you decide what to make an example of and what not to?

boycotts don't do anything. they just make the people doing it feel better about themselves. if that's what you want to achieve, have at it.

I honestly don't know, I haven't boycotted the game. I did get it for free, but I would have bought it had I not (albeit with some trepidation had I been aware of this stuff before hand). I just completely understand the viewpoint of those who have decided to boycott.

 

[plagiarize]

Why isn't this sensible? If people boycotting the game affected sales of the game enough that Chair decided to end their affiliation with him then that's one less revenue stream for him to funnel into the groups those boycotting are opposed to.

how do Chair know how many sales they would have had without the affiliation? how do Chair know if their sales are less than expected that it has anything to do with this call for a boycott and isn't for other reasons.

the only way they could even begin to know that would be, to you know, as i suggested, to write to them and voice your displeasure over them working with him.

it's the public, speaking out part that has an effect. not the 'who the fuck knows why' lost sale.

this very debate on this very forum will have more of an effect than the handful of lost sales that a gaf boycott would represent... and it doesn't hurt people that have nothing to do with it.

 

[Ponn]

I think most people find that jump reasonable, actually. People boycott things all the time, from the Rosa Parks-inspired bus boycott to Dixie Chicks albums.

EDIT: I should add that those examples are larger cases of boycotts that aren't representative of the ones we all make on an individual basis.

And I think even the examples you listed for boycotts aren't the same as this. Those are direct boycotts, even Dixie Chicks you were specificially boycotting Dixie Chicks. If this was just about boycotting OSC books do you think people would be this divisive? Can you really not see that difference? All i'm saying is just because you cannot see the other sides point of view doesn't make you automatically right and gives you free reign to call others stupid or ignorant for not playing by your rules in a thread. For either side.

Then maybe they shouldn't advertise it all over their game.

I've almost beaten the game and I haven't seen anything referring to OSC yet. I'll double check the title screen but I don't even remember his name on that screen or anywhere.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

yeah, you'd only miss Civilization, Age of Empires, Doom, Doom II and Quake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Petersen

that's the fact, when you look deep enough at these kinds of things you see the futility in boycotting.

when you boycott the only message you send is 'I didn't want to buy your product'. you say nothing of why. if like me you feel strongly about gay rights, get out their and champion there cause. there are better ways you can send that message out. write to your senator. heck, write to the developers, or OSC himself.

all those things will do a LOT more than boycotting the game, and they won't cause undue harm to people guilty by associations that may or may not exist.

Oh man, two genres I don't care about would be literally crippled!

I know what I'm wishing for next time Clarence visits me at Christmas!

Spoiler

non-joke edit: Please don't preach to me about the various ways to champion a cause. You have no idea about my history and you presume far too much.

Also lol you made a serious reply to a joke post!

 

[Wrestlemania]

how do Chair know how many sales they would have had without the affiliation? how do Chair know if their sales are less than expected that it has anything to do with this call for a boycott and isn't for other reasons.

the only way they could even begin to know that would be, to you know, as i suggested, to write to them and voice your displeasure over them working with him.

it's the public, speaking out part that has an effect. not the 'who the fuck knows why' lost sale.

The level of discussion and coverage it's had online may be enough for them to gauge the effect it's had and whether that's something they'd like to continue attracting in the future should they continue to work with him.

 

[dollartaco]

Why isn't this sensible? If people boycotting the game affected sales of the game enough that Chair decided to end their affiliation with him then that's one less revenue stream for him to funnel into the groups those boycotting are opposed to.

That's the thing here. Chair didn't shy away from Card's involvement at all. I'm sure it was a great boost to those who hold him in high regard. In fact, for every person who boycotts it there are probably 10-20 people who will buy the game, either knowing or unknowing of his hate speech.

Is the boycott effective, financially speaking? Probably not. But that's not the sole reason that people boycott things. I don't buy things at a national chain because of the way it treats its employees, but it's doing just fine. I just don't want to associate myself or my money with the place.

The Chair developers almost undoubtedly know about what he says on topics other than video games, even though gay rights are a very different topic. If they don't, maybe a small-but-vocal boycott to Card's continued involvement will change their opinion.

 

[plagiarize]

The level of discussion and coverage it's had online may be enough for them to gauge the effect it's had and whether that's something they'd like to continue attracting in the future should they continue to work with him.

right.

there's no way of measuring if a single person who would have bought the game otherwise has now, as a result of this, not bought the game. none. i'd bet that it's a paltry number.

it's the discussion and the debate that'll have any effect. not the lost revenue that'll hurt everyone at the company.

no one should be made to feel guilty for buying something that's the sum product of a team just because one of the people involved is a schmuck. certainly not if they actively champion a cause.

whether 'Chair' shied away from him or not, do you honestly think everyone working at Chair is in a position to have prevented either his involvement or his prominence in the marketing campaign? of course not. are you going to go so far as to say that if they didn't quit their jobs then they're just as guilty as Card is?

like i said, boycotting something only makes the person boycotting it feel better.

 

[plagiarize]

Spoiler

non-joke edit: Please don't preach to me about the various ways to champion a cause. You have no idea about my history and you presume far too much.

sorry Bill Gates. had no idea you posted on here. that username sure kept you hidden for a long time.

i didn't realize giving out advice to someone who had heard it before gave them license to be a giant dick about it.

i DON'T know if you've heard the advice before or not.

that's why i fucking gave it.

 

[dollartaco]

And I think even the examples you listed for boycotts aren't the same as this. Those are direct boycotts, even Dixie Chicks you were specificially boycotting Dixie Chicks. If this was just about boycotting OSC books do you think people would be this divisive? Can you really not see that difference? All i'm saying is just because you cannot see the other sides point of view doesn't make you automatically right and gives you free reign to call others stupid or ignorant for not playing by your rules in a thread. For either side.

I've almost beaten the game and I haven't seen anything referring to OSC yet. I'll double check the title screen but I don't even remember his name on that screen or anywhere.

Point 1) I don't I just didn't care for the browbeating when it came to the Chair pity party.

Point 2) I was simply stating that people boycott rather frequently. My edit addressed that those two examples were ones that were the most easily identified and that individuals "boycott" for a variety of reasons every day. Many, if not most people boycott based on associations and it's isn't a big jump in this case because...

Point 3) Card's name comes up on one of the very first screens that appears when you start the game, I believe. At least, that's how I found he was involved with the project. It's an ad for his novel.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

sorry Bill Gates. had no idea you posted on here. that username sure kept you hidden for a long time.

i didn't realize giving out advice to someone who had heard it before gave them license to be a giant dick about it.

i DON'T know if you've heard the advice before or not.

that's why i fucking gave it.

I didn't think I was being a giant dick. You presumed that I didn't know appropriate ways to go about my activism, which is pretty damned insulting. I replied saying that you don't know my history so you probably shouldn't assume things. That's being a dick? No, no, no, no, no sir... this is being a dick.

Go fuck yourself with a belt sander!