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Shuhei Yoshida: Western more focused on Japanese games, problems with DOAX3

I believe she's marketed towards fans that like a more girly look, among which I'm not included, not necessarily "lolicon." But I tend to shy away from defining people in a negative manner just because their taste differs from mine.

It's not so much defining people in a negative manner as describing what the marketing is actually looking to achieve (and succeeding).

She also adds a further degree of variety to a the cast that is fairly oriented towards more abundant cleavages and mature behaviors, which as far as I'm concerned, is normally a good thing.

Again, I have nothing against petite characters or childlike mannerisms, but when you combine those things in the context of a game that gives you skimpy outfits to put on characters so you can leer at their bodies, there's a problem.

There's a pink, ruffled DLC swimsuit outfit for Marie Rose in DOA5LR that illustrates the situation pretty well. I'm not comfortable linking the image here.
 

RM8

Member
She could be officially 1000 years old, but if she's perceived as a sexualized child character, it will be problematic. And it's just very easy to perceive her as that.
 
She could be officially 1000 years old, but if she's perceived as a sexualized child character, it will be problematic. And it's just very easy to perceive her as that.

You just reminded me Nowi existed. I'd forgotten about her for months, and had been living in peaceful bliss.
 

Synth

Member
The point is that she's not a child (or a minor), and her representation of someone her age is nowhere far from many girls you can encounter on the street, or on a beach.

latest

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I'm going to go with NO... not unless these adults are doing their utmost to be perceived as closely to a child as humanly possible. Without any context, nobody would assume this character to be an adult (nobody, don't lie to yourself).. and especially not alongside the other characters in the game that are supposedly her age.... which is honestly pretty much the same thing when designing a character and game to titillate

"My adult friends are like this" is complete horseshit, and basically an insult to any actual petite adult.
 

Abriael

Banned
It's not so much defining people in a negative manner as describing what the marketing is actually looking to achieve (and succeeding).

If you describe people who happen to enjoy (not even necessarily in an exclusive manner) that kind of character "lolicons," you're using a fairly negative definition.

Again, I have nothing against petite characters or childlike mannerisms, but when you combine those things in the context of a game that gives you skimpy outfits to put on characters so you can leer at their bodies, there's a problem.

Not for me. It's not my taste, but I have no specific problems with people that might like that kind of character, as long as they keep their hands off actual minors. Go to a beach in Japan, and you'll see plenty of those in marrying age, frilly swimsuits included. In Japan that style of dressing, talking and acting is nowhere limited to minors. As a matter of fact, I would go out on a limb and say that, at least as an intentional fashion statement, it's more widespread between ladies in their early twenties, as many high school students nowadays try to act in a more adult manner.

Hell, you might even in the west, albeit definitely more rarely. I sure have here in Italy and in France as well.

Paradoxically, Honoka is probably a more fitting representation of the average Japanese high school kid nowadays, giant boobage and a few minor details excluded.

It's Polygon, a place that still employs clowns such as Gies.

The biggest problem is that Gies, as the reviews editor, has a big say in who reviews what. It was obvious that Dragon's Crown was given to the reviewer that would have had the most negative outlook possible on it, and I won't believe for a second that it wasn't intentional.
 

Abriael

Banned
Does it look like a duck?
Does it walk like a duck?
Does it quack like a duck?

It's a duck.

People aren't ducks, and taste in beauty is normally a very complex matter that goes a fair way beyond the black and white (or duck and non-duck), but being judgmental of others is your choice. I choose not to, as long and they behave within the limits of the law.
 
Yes, but what I'm saying is the voting was carried out in a way that skews the view of what "the west wants". If someone asks me which characters I want in the game.. I'd answer someone like Mila... if someone tells me to buy a PSN theme of Mila, I'm like "no", so my vote is erased. The anime/otaku/jpop/etc market has demonstrated countless times to be more willing to put down money for things many others would not be willing to. It's pretty the standard way to extract the most gains from a niche audience, you just find the whales. That doesn't mean that someone else's purchase of the game doesn't hinge on the inclusion of a character that they weren't willing (or weren't even aware of how/why) to vote for.

To TK's credit though, those people are also far less likely to buy all the followup DLC that the game is designed to sell, so even if there were 3 Christie fans for every 1 Marie fan, it wouldn't mean much to them if every Marie fan bought every costume, yet only 1 of 5 Christie fans bought anything beyond the base game. So with that in mind, forcing the players to pay to vote was a pretty clever call. It is not however a definitive statement on what characters Western gamers (who wouldn't even know a vote is happening unless they followed Japanese news) would have liked to see included.

Well, DoAX is also a much more niche franchise than the standard DoA. So Tecmo they may also assume that it's far more likely that the niche group would be willing to pay for those themes to vote for their favorite are also the ones that are more likely to purchase the game. The ones that wouldn't probably aren't going to be as interested in buying the game. And almost certainly wouldn't buy the costumes (as you mentioned). Which means that the polling, even by charging for it, could still be representative of those who will actually purchase DoAX.

I think that's part of the key with the poll as well. They don't really care about the opinions of those that aren't going to buy it. So it'd be risky for them to allow anyone to vote and end up with a bunch of girls that aren't popular among those that are actually interested in buying the game.
 

Ferrio

Banned
Marie Rose was strategically made to appeal to a certain demographic, they aren't stupid they knew full well what they were doing when she was made. There's nothing wrong with that, but you look foolish if you try to deny that.
 

jkh13

Neo Member
I am really not convinced that the western audiences pay more attention to Japanese games in general. There were a number of great Japanese games released this year and last but sales in the west (Europe and USA) are still completely dominated by large western releases. The only outliers are mainstay Nintendo titles like Pokemon and Smash.

I think the subset of gamers that respond to Sony's marketing efforts such as us on Neogaf, people who attend PSX, Sony twitter followers etc are highly responsive to Japanese games but it would be foolish to consider this audience as the majority audience who buy games on consoles. The numbers have shown that western titles dwarf the sales of even large scale, highly marketed Japanese games in the west (outside of nintendo titles). Sony has done a great effort marketing more Japanese titles over the last couple of years but it can't really compare to titles that can easily market themselves through community such as Call of Duty, Destiny and Madden, these titles I think also resonate much more with the majority of western gamers.

I do wish more titles were localized as well and brought to the west but publishers have to spend money on marketing, localization and setting up distribution in additional territories in order to sell a title there. Consider something like Yakuza 3, sold about 200k units in the USA, probably cost upwards of 300k to localize, a similar amount to market, some money for logistics as well. Take off the cut for retail and digital delivery. In the end your profits are small to minimal. Now take into account you have limited resources available in your company and you are obliged to your shareholders to maximize profits by allocating these resources to more profitable project. This is why we don't see many of these games over here, these publishers are stupid, they have done a lot of hard calculations before deciding that it perhaps isn't worth the effort to bring certain titles over.
 

Hexa

Member
It's always a junior making these posts. I wonder if they gave the game a 6.5 but didn't mention this would you have actually cared enough to bash them?

Nah. Polygon are well established as peddlers of nonsense and have been so for quite some time. They haven't had nay major fuck ups lately though so I guess people are beginning to forget.
 

Synth

Member
Well, DoAX is also a much more niche franchise than the standard DoA. So Tecmo they may also assume that it's far more likely that the niche group would be willing to pay for those themes to vote for their favorite are also the ones that are more likely to purchase the game. The ones that wouldn't probably aren't going to be as interested in buying the game. And almost certainly wouldn't buy the costumes (as you mentioned). Which means that the polling, even by charging for it, could still be representative of those who will actually purchase DoAX.

I think that's part of the key with the poll as well. They don't really care about the opinions of those that aren't going to buy it. So it'd be risky for them to allow anyone to vote and end up with a bunch of girls that aren't popular among those that are actually interested in buying the game.

Well not really. I'd buy this (if it were being released here... not so sure about importing), but I didn't, and never would vote in that manner. I also bought both of the previous DOAX games, and have quite a bit of DOA5LR's DLC. It may be less likely for someone like me to be worth the same amount of money to TK as someone that would pay (possibly multiple times) to bump their chosen character to the top, but it doesn't mean that the character popularities represent those that would buy the game, rather than just those that buy useless crap not actually attached to the game.

I have no problem with someone claiming that it's very likely the Marie Rose would probably extract more cash from fans globally, but I don't agree that is the same thing as the character factually being more popular globally amongst fans of the series. It's basically similar to Kickstarter where a niche can punch way above their weight by paying more than the average customer would, even if their numbers would be smaller.
 

Abriael

Banned
While juniors are more likely to use derogatory terms, it's hardly just juniors who talk bad about Polygon.

I don't even think "clown" is excessively derogatory for someone who hands a review of a game to the writer that is most likely to hate its art style and call it "gross and alienating."

I have no problem with someone claiming that it's very likely the Marie Rose would probably extract more cash from fans globally, but I don't agree that is the same thing as the character factually being more popular globally amongst fans of the series.

Marie rose won the poll not because her type is the most popular among fans, but because she's fairly unique among the cast. Hence, those who like that kind of character focused their votes on her, while those who like characters with a more adult-ish design (and more curvaceous bodies) had their votes diluted among many.

Considering the uniqueness of her design, for better or worse, it was almost a given that she'd be at the top.
 

Synth

Member
Haha seriously. Once people start posting images of said questionable content, it immediately becomes a CreepFest.

Apologies for the pics... I just think they're somewhat required to apply context for when someone is claiming that the world is flooded with grown ass women that look and act like that in public (without it being a concerted effort to, let's say, cosplay as a child character).

Considering the uniqueness of her design, for better or worse, it was almost a given that she'd be at the top.

I guess this also makes sense. Thought to be fair, this would be less applicable for Honoka... but she still very much fits the perceived audience that would by the themes (and various other merch) in comparison to the other characters.
 
If Marie Rose was the barrier to DOAX3 coming to NA they'd just remove her from the game for that release. It's not like these games have some sort of all consuming story mode. They're just friendship(dating) sims. She could easily be replaced with any other character, and it's not like she's even the story focus in the main games for fuck sakes. That's not the problem. Everything comes down to business. This was the decision of some dude in a business suit saying "the numbers say this game won't sell well enough to be worth bringing to NA". Or alternatively "we could sell ok in NA but lets stir up some drama and get people talking about this game so it will sell great, tons of free advertising!". If you think it's any other reason you're kidding yourself. I don't know why every thread involving this game is the same rehash of the same old horeshit.
 

Abriael

Banned
Apologies for the pics... I just think they're somewhat required to apply context for when someone is claiming that the world is flooded with grown ass women that look and act like that in public (without it being a concerted effort to, let's say, cosplay as a child character).

No one claimed that it isn't a concerted effort. Those who act like that most of the times do it as an intentional fashion/style statement, but that doesn't make them any less real.
 
He probably is referencing individuals who scored the game low, rather than the overall impressions.

Some sites slagged on it because of the character designs because of... reasons.
Yes, his perception is likely way more about the negative discussions around the art than the scores themselves.
 

Synth

Member
No one claimed that it isn't a concerted effort. Those who act like that most of the times do it as a fashion/style statement, but that doesn't make them less real.

Then the point is moot, because then they're making a concerted effort to walk like duck, swim like a duck, quack like a duck, look like a duck, etc. Which in the context of what we're describing (and especially in regards to a fictional character created as a perfect representation of a duck, rather than an approximation), then there's really no difference from it actually being one.
 
No one claimed that it isn't a concerted effort. Those who act like that most of the times do it as an intentional fashion/style statement, but that doesn't make them less real.

You're doing some real mental gymnastics.

The fact that somebody may exist in the real world who resembles Marie Rose in every way doesn't make it okay to put a character like that into a game that encourages the player to leer at her in a sexualized manner. The existence of a real-world equivalent with her own agency is immaterial, because we are talking about a video game character, whose agency is debatable at best. You're acting as if the creators used no creative agency in making the decisions they did, and ignoring the implications of those decisions.
 

Abriael

Banned
Everything comes down to business. This was the decision of some dude in a business suit saying "the numbers say this game won't sell well enough to be worth bringing to NA".

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't realistic. Koei Tecmo is known for releasing stuff that will sell on par with Devil's Third or almost.

You can't tell me that DOAX 3 has less potential for sales in the west than Nobunaga's Ambition, Yoru No Nai Kuni or Arslan Musou.

And all of those games have a much higher localization cost due to dialogue density.

Then the point is moot, because then they're making a concerted effort to walk like duck, swim like a duck, quack like a duck, look like a duck, etc. Which in the context of what we're describing (and especially in regards to a fictional character created as a perfect representation of a duck, rather than an approximation), then there's really no difference from it actually being one.

It makes the world of difference, because there's a whole world of difference between an adult that intentionally acts and dresses in a girlish manner, and an actual underage girl.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
The excitement over the Japanese games is really coming from a segment of the PlayStation fanbase that felt left out during the PS3 years when Japanese console games became less common. They got into PlayStatoin for games like Final Fantasy and Ace Combat, and are just glad to see them return to home consoles with fully modern production values.

That however, is certainly a dedicated subset. Some here say Japan is kinda clueless as to how many people overseas like their cultural exports, and on some level that may be true, but I also think we need to maintain some perspective. Even the Final Fantasy fanbase today is a niche compared to the fanbase of Call of Duty or Bethesda's games, so it's still easy to see why Japanese developers wasted that time chasing after western ideas. They just failed because you can't really make a Japanese hamburger.
 

dan2026

Member
Considering DOAX is aimed squarely at the otaku audience, having a lolicon character is not really any surprise.

That said I see no real problem with this game or the series. I just feel even as a 'titty game' its just not very good.
 
I believe she's marketed towards fans that like a more girly look, among which I'm not included, not necessarily "lolicon." But I tend to shy away from defining people in a negative manner just because their taste differs from mine.

She also adds a further degree of variety to a cast that is fairly oriented towards more abundant cleavages and mature behaviors, and as far as I'm concerned, variety is normally a good thing.



The point is that she's not a child (or a minor), and her representation of someone her age is nowhere far from many girls you can encounter on the street, or on a beach.

There are many assumptions here (not you specifically but in the thread). Do we know the official description (age) of the character and intent of the developers?
 

Synth

Member
It makes the world of difference, because there's a whole world of difference between an adult that intentionally acts and dresses in a girlish manner, and an actual underage girl.

Not in the fictional world of a video game where the "adult" side of the character is non-existent, and the only thing that's determining the character to be "an adult doing a fucking flawless impression of a child" (at all times) and "an actual child" is that they wrote "18" next to "Age" instead of "13".
 
Look I am clearly an 11 year old, but it is OK because of some arbitrary number next to my name.

You're doing some real mental gymnastics.

The fact that somebody may exist in the real world who resembles Marie Rose in every way doesn't make it okay to put a character like that into a game that encourages the player to leer at her in a sexualized manner. The existence of a real-world equivalent with her own agency is immaterial, because we are talking about a video game character, whose agency is debatable at best. You're acting as if the creators used no creative agency in making the decisions they did, and ignoring the implications of those decisions.

Anybody willing to go through the mental gymnastics that Abriael isn't going to suddenly change their mind.
 
I think the subset of gamers that respond to Sony's marketing efforts such as us on Neogaf, people who attend PSX, Sony twitter followers etc are highly responsive to Japanese games but it would be foolish to consider this audience as the majority audience who buy games on consoles. The numbers have shown that western titles dwarf the sales of even large scale, highly marketed Japanese games in the west (outside of nintendo titles). Sony has done a great effort marketing more Japanese titles over the last couple of years but it can't really compare to titles that can easily market themselves through community such as Call of Duty, Destiny and Madden, these titles I think also resonate much more with the majority of western gamers.

The people you're describing grew up playing Playstation, which means that they're going to have a soft spot for Japanese games as those were the main games for the PSone and PS2. Not that there weren't any big western games as there obviously were, but if you look at best of lists for those consoles they're filled with Japanese games. I guess the big question is how big is that group? That's what we're going to find out this generation as Japan seems to be gearing up with the types of games that they once made. Last generation was awkward as for whatever reason we saw a lot of Japanese developers suddenly think they they had to make games a different way if they wanted them to sell in the west.

As far as marketing goes, I think that's a big problem with Japanese games currently. Most really don't see big mainstream marketing pushes. Even MGSV didn't get a big push, although that's largely because of Konami. But it's a major hurdle in breaking into the west. You really don't see many big selling games that don't have a big marketing campaign backing them.
 

Abriael

Banned
There are many assumptions here (not you specifically but in the thread). Do we know the official description (age) of the character and intent of the developers?

We do:

http://teamninja-studio.com/doa5/lastround/us/top.html#Characters

Select Marie Rose

Bedecked in a maid uniform and shrouded in mystery.
Despite her sweet and childlike appearance,
Marie Rose is a formidable fighter in the Russian
martial art of Systema. Who is she really,
and what other secrets are hiding behind that devilish smile?

Fighting style:
Systema is a military form of combat that emphasizes
constant fluidity of movement. Marie Rose uses this
and her small frame to her advantage to outmaneuver
opponents with a variety of tricky moves.

Country: Sweden
Sex: Female
School of combat:Systema
Age: 18
Birthday: June 6
Blood type: AB
Height/Weight: 147 cm/39 kg
Measurements: 74 cm; Waist: 56 cm; Hips: 78 cm
Occupation: Servant
Favorite food: Prinsesstårta
Hobbies: Sewing, watching horror movies
 

ViciousDS

Banned
So..this obviously means Japan Studio is working The Legend of Dragoon remake, produced by Yosp right? He was the one who essentially made that game happen.

You know.....you and I....are just a vicious cycle of whoever brings up LoD to destroy each other's souls because that's all we want.
 

Faustek

Member
I dunno, they seem to like Honoka just fine.

Banned in Sweden (pretty much why Marie Rose being specified in the series as Swedish is considered a jab at that).

It was Nintendo Bergslagen that decided that after a dude on Flashback decided to use the game as a test to challenge the child porn laws we have after another dude who was translating Japanese stuff that had high-school girls having -I don't know but I reckon they where naked-, he was judged as being in possession of child porn thoup. The police said that DOA wasn't porn though. A girl in a thong isn't porn. A few years back our Minister of Justice reported herself though as a possessor of child porn because she had art where children where nude.
Also let's not forget "Ronja Rövardotter(Ronja bandit daughter)". That's real children there, Ronja and Birk are running around naked. That movie is still being sold. But hey we live in a weird country. By law a 60 year old can go down to high-school. Pick up a 15 year old and they can literally have a filthy sloppy gangbang and everything is a ok but! If anyone takes a picture of the 15 year old they are in possession of child porn even if the 15 year old themselves takes a picture of it.

BTW all Swedes that have the Berserk manga. Burn it or hide it. Remember that Guts as a child gets raped and those scenes where shown. We're still in possession of child porn by law since the thing with the minister of Justice isn't settled yet. This was during Moderaternas time so we'll see the outcome never...Please don't take away Berserk from me Sweden. Please.

On topic: huh? We like Japanese games? No shit Sherlock :D Now give me a new Wild ARMs please.
 

Yopis

Member
Certain section will shame games if different than what they want. We will get less games or mom approved versions. Times change I guess. Everything offends someone. Who should companies listen to? Atleast we get another Ace Combat
 
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