Cynn
Member
I think his point is more that we pay more attention to Japanese games than the Japanese do these days.
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Shuhei Yoshida: Western more focused on Japanese games, problems with DOAX3
- Thread starter miku
- Start date
Please no mom versions. Everything will be half naked elvish men if that happens.
leatherhat
Member
What I find strange about the DOAX3 controversy is that its no more scandalous than a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.
KimonoNoNo
Member
It would've blown over ages ago if not for the Play-Asia guy invoking the dreaded "SJW" bogeyman.
or vampires. half naked teen vampires
A "Marie Rose" on the cover of Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition wouldn't go well either. Minus that, and you have the previous games, which were basically treated the same way a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue would be.
Roran Stehl
Member
This may be relevant to this discussion.
http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-changes-the-endless-debate-over-video-1747960323
http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-changes-the-endless-debate-over-video-1747960323
leatherhat
Member
I'd have to look it up but I specifically remember a cover where they advertised that the girl had just turned 18, and thats an actual girl not a game character. So I think you might be wrong on that.
atlusprime
Atlus PR
Dang, so here we are. I have to throw down with Shuhei. FIGHT ME IRL, SHU. (plz don't, I love you. why did you have to use Dragon's Crown as an example T____T)
And then all the #gamergate remnants started pushing it and now low sales of DOAX2 are retroactively Sarkeesian's fault somehow.
Yea, and that'd work as a comparison point for characters like Kasumi/Ayane and the like... but (apologies for the pic again people)...
Yea...
The n00b Avenger
Member
They put her in goth loli outfits, sukumizu, and a gym outfit. Those are basically the cliche "use these on lolis!" outfits.
Though I've never actually played any of the games so if the gym outfits and sukumizu outfits are available for everyone else then I guess that point is void.
Though I've never actually played any of the games so if the gym outfits and sukumizu outfits are available for everyone else then I guess that point is void.
They are available for other girls as well.
Mechanized
Member
This is like reading a sad poem.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Incredibly well put posts by Abrieal. I know it's an uncomfortable issue for many, but you explain it so well on a subject I wouldn't even dare to try.
Gym outfits are universal, and school swimsuits I think exist for all the characters that are in her age class. It's the other costume types where she begins to deviate, where other characters would be given a bikini outfit, Marie will have something like in the picture above.. the character in DOA5 is essentially completely lacking in outfits that aren't tailored to present a childish appearance. This even extended to them switching out a more revealing arabian/genie costume that won a "design a costume" contest for the character, with a more typical halloween witch dress-up costume.
They've taken a decent amount of care in curating Marie Rose's costumes in DOA5LR, both to establish her childish persona, but also to avoid overly risque costumes making up her wardrobe when compared with other characters. For DOAX3 though, all bets are off... which is obviously leading to the character being more problematic for a release over here.
They're kind of in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation with her. People complained when they put her in the childish swimsuits and said they didn't fit her actual age, but now that they're putting her in the sexier ones, people have a problem with those too. It's obvious that there are people who just don't like her as a character, which of course is understandable, but I don't think anything K-T could do with her would satisfy those people.
Lol at the attention to her underwear. I like DOA enough to buy the fighting games, but this series is super shameless.
I don't think it's really a case of there's nothing they could have done with the character to avoid it... after all, it's a fictional creation so she could essentially be any of the other characters with a few tweaks. I think they probably couldn't do much to avoid the criticisms whilst still targeting the demographic that they created her for, but there are tons of ways of introducing both petite, and even childish characters without catching flack. Nobody complains about a character like Eileen in Virtua Fighter, because she isn't designed in a way that adheres to very specific tropes with otaku culture that gather almost universal criticism outside of their niche fanbases. Give Marie a different hairstyle, different mannerisms and dress her like an adult in general (not just when it comes time to star in a gravure swimsuit game), and she'd have been accepted simply as a petite character... but instead they fashioned her into what she is, and purposely created the perception that she has, because they knew it would find an audience, and that audience would be willing to part with substantial amounts of money for it. Establishing the character in this way means that you can't simply handwave it all away by then dressing her in skimpy costumes later. She is a character now, the time to set her course was before. There's been tons of child female characters in fighting games, tons of slender characters without much of a bust, plenty of petite characters... but most of them weren't handled like Marie Rose, and many of the games don't handle female characters in general like Dead or Alive does... so the reactions are significantly different.
I don't necessarily like Marie Rose in DOA5LR... much like I'm not overly fond of Lucky Chloe in Tekken 7, or Emi in Fighting Vipers 2, but outside of a few questionable costume choices for Marie I think she's mostly harmless in that as a fighting game character... DOAX is a different matter though, and their are a whole bunch of childish female characters that are fine (or even great) in various other games which would cause me to raise an eyebrow if they suddenly got the DOAX treatment.
Still think this is the best redesign for Lucky Chloe
https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN/status/542583593776599040
https://twitter.com/Harada_TEKKEN/status/542583593776599040
I like Lucky Chloe, she's annoying at worst, but at least she actually looks like an adult. And really, design-wise, I'd like Marie Rose too if it wasn't for that unfortunate... er, kind of pandering. She'd be so much better with a more grown up personality - that's an animu trope in itself, isn't it? The "kid" who is actually pretty mature and assertive. That and the toddler swimwear, that stuff is just, ugh.
Dark Ninja
Member
So much was working against Japanese games that I can almost understand why some devs were under the impression that westerners disliked their games:
-The encroaching narrative that the games press repeated ad nauseum for most of last generation that "Japan is dying", "their games are stale!", "western games are the future!"
-The difficulties of development and resource allocation in the early HD era for those studios not accustomed to using middleware / off the shelf toolkits.
-Americanization of their games in an attempt to cut into the western market (the "Japanese hamburger" paradigm)
-The west out-marketed the hell out of them last gen by ridiculous amounts. Dante's Inferno with their Super Bowl ad, while (the lightyears better game in the same genre) Bayonetta barely got any kind of advertising
-The bulk of major Japanese releases being on the PSP and DS, where handhelds never took off in the west
Over the past few years, stuff has changed for the better, and the devs are finally becoming aware that there's a big, insatiable fanbase for their games outside of their homeland, that likes their games for being unabashedly Japanese. Not to mention, the same games press who were hyping the cinematic, over-produced and over-marketed "AAA" games the west were pushing last gen are now finding those games and franchises a bit more stale. More Japanese devs are adopting middleware tools, porting to various platforms instead of keeping things exclusive, learning to capture grassroots hype via social media, and increasing the amount of games they localize.
I'm just hoping that amazing 2016 lineup is the start of a fantastic second wind, and not one last big boom before fading into mobile oblivion.
-The encroaching narrative that the games press repeated ad nauseum for most of last generation that "Japan is dying", "their games are stale!", "western games are the future!"
-The difficulties of development and resource allocation in the early HD era for those studios not accustomed to using middleware / off the shelf toolkits.
-Americanization of their games in an attempt to cut into the western market (the "Japanese hamburger" paradigm)
-The west out-marketed the hell out of them last gen by ridiculous amounts. Dante's Inferno with their Super Bowl ad, while (the lightyears better game in the same genre) Bayonetta barely got any kind of advertising
-The bulk of major Japanese releases being on the PSP and DS, where handhelds never took off in the west
Over the past few years, stuff has changed for the better, and the devs are finally becoming aware that there's a big, insatiable fanbase for their games outside of their homeland, that likes their games for being unabashedly Japanese. Not to mention, the same games press who were hyping the cinematic, over-produced and over-marketed "AAA" games the west were pushing last gen are now finding those games and franchises a bit more stale. More Japanese devs are adopting middleware tools, porting to various platforms instead of keeping things exclusive, learning to capture grassroots hype via social media, and increasing the amount of games they localize.
I'm just hoping that amazing 2016 lineup is the start of a fantastic second wind, and not one last big boom before fading into mobile oblivion.
Actually Dead or Alive is roughly on par with Guilty Gear Xrd in this regard. That designs is showing the changes that would be mapped to the different 'hairstyle' configurations (A, B, C and D) and these sorts of detail changes exist for numerous costumes throughout the series (in older games you'd simply hold a button combination to select color combinations for example).
Battlechili
Banned
Its really unfortunate that the DOAX3 isn't coming to the West if these reasons really are the case. Sure, these sorts of games will always get their criticism, but they also have their own niche market who are very fond of buying such titles. Although I suppose it being available in English overseas means that it doesn't really matter if it comes over or not.
On another note, I'm surprised that Shuhei Yoshida commented on this. Also think its kinda cool he likes Dragon's Crown. I really ought' to buy that game. I've heard so many good things, and its got such gorgeous artwork.
On another note, I'm surprised that Shuhei Yoshida commented on this. Also think its kinda cool he likes Dragon's Crown. I really ought' to buy that game. I've heard so many good things, and its got such gorgeous artwork.
Perhaps its because I hang around a lot of anime circles that I think this, but you seem to be really over-exaggerating the extremity of that. Not that I can't see why it'd make someone uncomfortable, just that its rather tame in comparison to a lot of other Japanese titles, both within and outside of video games, especially considering that its just that one character, as opposed to a lot of other works that have a whole cast of characters like that.
I'd argue that Nintendo handhelds are extremely popular in the West. Not sure if I'm right, but I heard that the 3DS for instance sold more than the PS4, Xbox One, and Wii U. Its more that Sony handhelds haven't really caught on in the West.
Yea I was saying the same thing before...
but they did end up releasing that costume today.
Basketball
Member
Wow this is a gem.
Basketball
Member
double
cosmicblizzard
Banned
To be fair, Criminal Girls and Monpiece did pretty well in the west, and they'll only do better with them on Steam.
Valdfellgar
Banned
Yeah I agree, he's very on point about this topic. Saying things better than I probably could and more patient with the unending rhetoric of painting everything in dark extremes.
Kudos, Abrieal, kudos to you.
The problem is not that these game won't come outside Japan.
It's that they keep making these kind of game.
Here's latest one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0kD1-4DYc
What can we do to stop them from making these atrocities?
It's that they keep making these kind of game.
Here's latest one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0kD1-4DYc
What can we do to stop them from making these atrocities?
You could stop with your "ironic" shitposting and pretending you're a westerner who doesn't like fanservice games, for one thing.
CertifiedFP
Member
Oh wow, he was hyped for Natsuiro?
EDIT:
RIP RyoonZ. To blow it all on an NX Port Begging spree.
Reviewers seem to decide when mechanics or presentation matter more than the other based on which is failing harder. Plenty of presentation-heavy games that lack good gameplay fundamentals get high reviews on one hand, when games with great gameplay mechanics get high reviews in spite of issues with poor or lacking presentation. It's a neat tactic, and one that keeps them in the good graces of publishers without looking like shills, just inconsistent.
The fact is that a few reviewers may have decided not to play that game with Dragon's Crown. Most of those negative reviews comment about its genre being stale and boring with DC adding nothing to the table to draw in more than people who enjoy it as it stands and/or saw the game as merely selling on its cheesecake art style with its characters and nostalgia for the genre and just didn't care for it.
Huh... it's like that was released specifically to screw with my example, lol.
Yea, as I'm saying, it's not that the game wouldn't make bank... TK KNOWS it would. I guess they're counting on the imports bringing the cash in anyway, allowing them to go all out with the character whilst also not contending with the publicity that would come with a global release (the Dead or Alive name alone guarantees that the game would draw more attention... especially combined with the realistic graphics and advanced skin shaders).
I can't take the idea that they're not looking to release it here out of fear of losing money seriously at all.
Hmm... well I'm certainly not someone who is against fanservicey games in general. I wouldn't even be in these threads if I had no interest in this game. I bought the previous entries after all (and both Rumble Roses games for that matter). You can like a type of game whilst still having a limit to the content you believe it should entail (I assume for most of us, this line is drawn some way short of an Illusion game for example). If anything I'm somewhat annoyed that the addition of Marie has resulted in a game that can't easily be released worldwide, whereas I'd have been all over the game had it been released prior to the Last Round updates to DOA5.
Vanillaware games have the tendency to be a little too grindy so I understand when people can't dig them.
Just gonna quote this again so people can see the translation correction.
This is a pretty awful scenario. If Japanese developers and even someone like Shuhei Yoshida, boss of Sony, are listening to the media before consumers, then things have gone terribly wrong. Games like Dragon's Crown and Bayonetta 2 should not have to suffer due to some people in the spotlight's biases, especially when their overall reception and sales speak for themselves. People that don't represent the audience or the consumers like this shouldn't be taken into consideration and it's sad that Mr. Yoshida gave the time of day and might even factor them into future decisions.
Cultural differences? Is the West really that livid over how another culture creates its entertainment media?
Good lord this is horrifying. This reads like a slander campaign against Kamitani. No wonder Japaneses devs are scared, who would honestly want to risk having their name and company image dragged through the mud like this?
Eolz
Member
Makes me laugh how it always comes down to the people not liking Marie Rose that make the topic talk about her, when nobody cared before.
Not really, since he actually put 14-16 years old in his games.
This too.
Not really, since he actually put 14-16 years old in his games.
This too.
This isn't the thread you want to chime on with this tbh. Half of the thread's title is literally "problems with DOAX3". It makes the topic about Marie Rose implicitly. No Marie Rose, no "problem with DOAX3", no DOAX in this thread.
Also usually the other threads end up in drawn out Marie discussions as a result of posters attempting to portray a dislike of the character as a general dislike of petite females in any form, as though that's the sole issue, and there's nothing that can be done to avoid it. That's just stupid, and should be contested wherever brought up (along with the fictional age BS that you use as a "b-but Itagaki" defense as though any character has an actual age).
silvermember
Banned
Not to be rude but the media can only react after the fact. Those publishers still have the option of releasing their products. The only catch is if they they will get flak for it.
Like it or not society has cultural norms. Video games are a product to be sold and thus public perception does matter. No company is going to risk getting criticized over protecting a clearly loli character.
Luckily in this global world importing is a viable option.
Anyways legally nobody is stopping them except the fact that company exist to make money by selling mass media products which has to confirm to society's norms.
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Why does Metacritic bump some scores with lesser known or very small publications for some, but not others?
Silvermember: Only cause Sony made it import possible. Does Nintendo? Don't they region block for the 3DS?
Edit: I think MS Xbox One is region free too? Never tested it.
Silvermember: Only cause Sony made it import possible. Does Nintendo? Don't they region block for the 3DS?
Edit: I think MS Xbox One is region free too? Never tested it.
I was generally talking about Dragon's Crown and potential future titles, I don't see why you're mentioning "loli".
I'm not sure I understand what your argument is saying. Japanese products should conform to American cultural and societal norms, or else be panned to the point their developers are publicly called out? Don't people enjoy foreign things precisely because they're foreign?
Just whose norms are we talking about here, reviewers? Shouldn't they take into account the context in which foreign media products instead of applying local biases? Considering DC sold over 1 million units, I don't think it had culture trouble with most consumers either.
No one is stopping developers, true, but this isn't fear of criticism so much as fear of reprisal at this point.
There were complaints about the elf? Wat? She is the most "normal" looking character in the game.
radios shipping overview
Member
Never thought I'd see people praising the mental gymnastics necessary to justify sexualizing characters that look like little girls.
radios shipping overview
Member
That's what you do on a forum. You talk about issues you find important.
What kind of character is less acceptable to sexualize?
- characters who look vaguely adult, act vaguely adult, but officially are underage
- characters who look childlike, dress childlike, talk childlike, but officially are 18
Because bad rep might, one way or another, affect their bottomline?