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[EmCeeGramr]

I saw it as a bad thing when I was running around for hours in the northern forest on the World of Ruin looking for a "fierce dragon" (which was mistranslated from "dinosaur).

But wasn't that the opposite of a Woolseyism, ironically enough?

The Japanese word for dinosaur is kyoryu, literally "fierce dragon," just like how our word for dinosaur comes from the Greek for "great/terrible lizard."

It was a literal translation that didn't take into account meaning or context.

 

[Firestorm]

You know what's the best? When I'm watching anime and people leave in a literal translation of a Japanese pun and I have to look for an explanation at the top. Then I'm like "haha that could have been funny if I was Japanese" in which case WHY WOULD I BE WATCHING YOUR FANSUB.

Localizations are my pick. Not translations.

 

[Nairume]

You know what's the best? When I'm watching anime and people leave in a literal translation of a Japanese pun and I have to look for an explanation at the top. Then I'm like "haha that could have been funny if I was Japanese" in which case WHY WOULD I BE WATCHING YOUR FANSUB.

Localizations are my pick. Not translations.

On that note, this is probably worth watching. It's about anime, but it could apply here to an extent.

 

[Forkball]

Anyone who complains about Woosley should play the PS1 version of FFT.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Sometimes I don't like excessive localizations, especially when they are really heavy with the accents (DQ4, 5, Beat in The World Ends With You), it just sounds awkward in writing. Or when games have lots of things changed about them... i.e. a game may change 'curry' to 'hamburger' or something. Why strip cultural references out of your game in a desperate attempt to appeal to some middle americans, whose idea of 'ethnic cuisine' is the Olive Garden, who probably isn't buying your game anyways?

It's not an issue of appeal, but of resonance. Even the most self-proclaimed cultured American will find something uniquely foreign to be "off", and the game world will become that less believable to her.

There's a risk that the localized versions will have the opposite effect, but generally speaking people find it acceptable ("hamburgers" in Phoenix Wright didn't detract from any sort of immersion for me). How weird would it have been to pick up some RAGEDUMPLING instead of RAGECANDYBAR in G/S, or Bean Paste Cake instead of Old Gateau in D/P/Pt?

 

[Nairume]

Anyone who complains about Woosley should play the PS1 version of FFT.

L I T T L E M O N E Y

Yeah, even if he was on his own, only given a week, and forced to use outdated tools, he probably wouldn't have let that one slip by him.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

the people who scanlated the persona 4 comic left in all the fucking "kuma" jokes, which means that every page was like a monster of translation notes

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

What "many" games are you talking about, exactly? I would be hard-pressed to fill up even one hand counting games that have been translated into English with a significant amount of stuff "invented" that "isn't even present" in the original. There's no game equivalent to Samurai Pizza Cats.



Gosh, it's almost like anime is a completely different medium from videogames and the controversies and challenges related to translating one are not exactly the same as those related to translating the other!

Um, yes, I know that. And I'd like for you to tell me where I said anything less, or said that there were "many games" which fell into that category. Because I never said that even once.

I was just pointing out the pitfalls that localizations can fall into, and that there's a reason why people often object to translators inventing additional stuff (as Woolsey often did).

Like I said, most video game localizations (at least those that I've played) have avoided going down this path, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. My intent was not to discuss any specific examples of game localizations, but simply state what I think what makes a good one.

 

[Nairume]

I was just pointing out the pitfalls that localizations can fall into, and that there's a reason why people often object to translators inventing additional stuff (as Woolsey often did).

If you are saying that Woolsey often "invented additional stuff", care to give any examples that aren't Siren's pants?

 

[The Omega Man]

The day Japanese suffixes are left out of Japanese to English translations/localizations, it will be a glorious day. No more san, chan, kun, sama, dono in my english games please!!!

 

[SuperAngelo64]

anti-weaboo movement

This. ^

 

[jman2050]

People just really have to look at the audience that these games are made for. Personally, I don't have a problem with overly literal translations in fan-translated works, but that isn't because their work is "good", but rather because my personal experience has allowed me to "translate" the stilted dialogue on the fly to something that makes sense to me. In other words, you watch enough fansubs, you sort of get an idea on what a literal translation is trying to say, and there usually isn't a problem as a result. I imagine it's the same for "weeaboos" at large.

Thing is, we don't represent any significant majority, and for translation projects that are meant to be digested by a more diverse group of people, a proper localization is crucial. People don't speak Japanese in America, they speak English, and as anyone who's gotten past elementary school knows, communicating in a language goes far beyond understanding the syntax and grammar of the language itself. It's all about how it's used in a cultural context.

You'd think that would be common sense, and it's weird how I tend to only see this type of thing when it comes to Japanese. I mean, just as a quick example off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure most people familiar with Spanish understand that its use of gender-specificity for damn near everything doesn't need to be literally conveyed when translatied to English, right? Why should Japanese or other languages be treated any differently.

 

[Nairume]

This. ^

The 2005+ pro-Western fad needs to just die already.

Both sides are really annoying, though I do find the "weeaboo" side a little more annoying. Just a little.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

If you are saying that Woolsey often "invented additional stuff", care to give any examples that aren't Siren's pants?

Well, Frog's accent in Chrono Trigger is probably one of the biggest examples I can think of.

That statement was kind of poorly worded, though. I just mean to say that he (and some of the other folks who often draw ire) did that stuff at times, and it does become a slippery slope.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Both sides are really annoying, though I do find the "weeaboo" side a little more annoying. Just a little.

Well one side is like 95% of GAF.

 

[Princess Skittles]

I've always wondered why the little baby whiners don't just learn the glorious nihongo language and be over it? It would save them a world of emotional stress. A fraction of the effort spent crying like petulant children on internet message boards would probably get you up to speed in another language to some degree and a few games of practice would seal the deal.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

i like how a translation style originating from one dude's handling of early-to-mid 90s SNES RPGs is now a recent phenomenon intended to attack mid-2000s Japanophiles

woolsey traveled into the future, it seems

 

[Nairume]

Well one side is like 95% of GAF.

True, but does that side write erotic fan fiction about forum members that disagree with them?

 

[Firestorm]

This. ^

The 2005+ pro-Western fad needs to just die already.

I like how a lot of the people vocally supporting localization over literal translations live in Japan and/or are people I see in most of the jRPG threads. Totally pro-West / anti-East!

 

[Nairume]

i like how a translation style originating from one dude's handling of early-to-mid 90s SNES RPGs is now a recent phenomenon intended to attack mid-2000s Japanophiles

woolsey traveled into the future, it seems

Having been in and out of the translation community for the past decade, I've noticed it being kind of a problem since the first couple years of the decade.

I've always wondered why the little baby whiners don't just learn the glorious nihongo language and be over it? It would save them a world of emotional stress. A fraction of the effort spent crying like petulant children on internet message boards would probably get you up to speed in another language to some degree and a few games of practice would seal the deal.

It's why Woolsey's reaction to the fan retranslations was priceless.

 

[badcrumble]

I like how a lot of the people vocally supporting localization over literal translations live in Japan and/or are people I see in most of the jRPG threads. Totally pro-West / anti-East!

also a number of them actually work as translators

 

[sfried]

People who encourage literal translation: Trust me, it doesn't work. Most phrases are figures of speaches, and if you translate them word for word they lose all meaning. Rather, it's better to find the equivalent figure of speach in the language or use a similar expression.

Translation is all about getting the idea through as opposed to try and switch each sentence word-for-word into another language. In the end literal translation sounds much like what would happen if you passed it through one of those AltaVista websites that try to change the text into english. It just sounds very unnatural, and not to mention stupid.

And no, I'm not American. There is no pre-West/anti-East thing going on. It's just common sense. Don't believe me? Why not try and actually take up another language and learn it untill it you speak/write it natively?

Heck, even German contains some colloquialisms that can't be translated into English.

 

[Mandoric]

You'd think that would be common sense, and it's weird how I tend to only see this type of thing when it comes to Japanese. I mean, just as a quick example off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure most people familiar with Spanish understand that its use of gender-specificity for damn near everything doesn't need to be literally conveyed when translatied to English, right? Why should Japanese or other languages be treated any differently.

But then how else will I have my proper la sense de la place when reading my la comic about el cat?

I think people put up with honorifics because they watched Karate Kid too much as a kid and took away the lesson "honorifics are acceptable all over" rather than the lesson "honorifics are sometimes, rarely, acceptable in place of an equivalent English honorific".
I also wonder how many of the people who insist on "Miyamoto-san" would bother with, say, "Monsieur Ancel".

 

[Regulus Tera]

the people who scanlated the persona 4 comic left in all the fucking "kuma" jokes, which means that every page was like a monster of translation notes

Oh god you're not joking.

What a teddious read.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

someone list all of the japanese phrases and idioms that would just be silly in english

best one ever is goldfish poop

Oh god you're not joking.

What a teddious read.

kami-sama* damn it

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I like how a lot of the people vocally supporting localization over literal translations live in Japan and/or are people I see in most of the jRPG threads. Totally pro-West / anti-East!

Exactly. I love jRPGs, and as such, would love their appeal to be presented to as wide a western audience as possible. I also translated enough latin in my day to know how horrible literal translation is.

I hate the op, however, for linking me to tvtropes.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tab_explosion.png

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

But then how else will I have my proper la sense de la place when reading my la comic about el cat?

I think people put up with honorifics because they watched Karate Kid too much as a kid and took away the lesson "honorifics are acceptable all over" rather than the lesson "honorifics are sometimes, rarely, acceptable in place of an equivalent English honorific".
I also wonder how many of the people who insist on "Miyamoto-san" would bother with, say, "Monsieur Ancel".

I actually call everyone 'Monsieur' or 'Guv', and let me tell you, it confuses the holyfuck out of Japanese people.

 

[sfried]

I actually call everyone 'Monsieur' or 'Guv', and let me tell you, it confuses the holyfuck out of Japanese people.

And I hate it when British stuff has to be explained to American audiences... :lol

 

[Regulus Tera]

kami-sama* damn it

I find your sense of humour to be unbearable.

 

[genjiZERO]

I thought they were fine back in the day. After I learned they were "changed" I think now I'd prefer more direct translations. Even when I was a kid playing RPGs (and videogames in general) was a Japanese cultural experience - it made me feel like I was participating in Japanese culture which I really enjoyed. I didn't need things explained to me in an American context. In fact, I enjoyed not understanding something because it would make me want to understand what it was all about. Not videogames, but that's one of the reasons Studio Ghibli are so great - every detail is an obscure reference to something in Japanese culture. This is probably one of the main reasons I don't really play games anymore - they don't feel like a Japanese cultural experience anymore. So, I'm not a Woolsey hater by any stretch of the imagination - in fact I think he did a spectacular job of preserving the spirit of the games - I just don't like when translators feel the need to hold my hand and protect me from foreign culture when that's half the point to begin with.

 

[sfried]

This is probably one of the main reasons I don't really play games anymore - they don't feel like a Japanese cultural experience anymore.

I'm bothered by this perception that Japanese culture is like this "otherworldly" kind of thing (like many other Eastern cutures) that simply couldn't be comprehended by the average Westerner or something like that, as if all of Western culture somehow got represented by American and everyone was eating hamburgers and whatnot. The whole excoticism of East Asian culture and Orientalism has to stop. Seriously, coming form a background of East Asian cultures, the similarities/parallels with other Western cultures far outweighs the differences...

And when it comes to translations, you be pretty disappointed once you realize "oh, so that's it?" and the "cultural charm" starts starts to rub off. People play games because they're fun, not because they are some sort of introspective towards a certain cultures and some shit.

Healthy facination is okay, but when it comes to blind perceptions like this I'm a little shaken.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm bothered by this perception that Japanese culture is like this "otherworldly" kind of thing (like many other Eastern cutures) that simply couldn't be comprehended by the average Westerner or something like that, as if all of Western culture somehow got represented by American and everyone was eating hamburgers and whatnot. The whole excoticism of East Asian culture and Orientalism has to stop. Seriously, coming form a background of East Asian cultures, the similarities/parallels with other Western cultures far outweighs the differences...

And when it comes to translations, you be pretty disappointed once you realize "oh, so that's it?" and the "cultural charm" starts starts to rub off. People play games because they're fun, not because they are some sort of introspective towards a certain cultures and some shit.

I don't think it's "otherworldly".. I just think it's more charming for me personally. There are differences between cultures.. the majority of people in each culture value different concepts in art... and the way I always saw it, is that a minority of western gamers actually think much like the majority of Japanese gamers (and the reverse is true over there - a minority of Japanese gamers like American-style war games).

It's a fact that the western majority loves macho and gritty FPS etc, while a minority like cartoony character games. Japan will just happen to cater more to that lesser group. It's not an orientalism thing specifically.

 

[sfried]

I don't think it's "otherworldly".. I just think it's more charming for me personally. There are differences between cultures.. the majority of people will value different concepts in art... and the way I always saw it, is that a minority of western gamers actually think much like the majority of Japanese gamers (and the reverse is true over there - a minority of Japanese gamers like American-style war games).

It's a fact that the western majority loves macho and gritty FPS etc, while a minority like cartoony character games. Japan will just happen to cater more to that lesser group. It's not an orientalism thing specifically.

But of course true art is foreign!

 

[Mandoric]

I don't think it's "otherworldly".. I just think it's more charming for me personally. There are differences between cultures.. the majority of people will value different concepts in art... and the way I always saw it, is that a minority of western gamers actually think much like the majority of Japanese gamers (and the reverse is true over there - Some Japanese gamers like American-style war games).

It's a fact that the western majority loves macho and gritty FPS etc, while a minority like cartoony character games. Japan will just happen to cater more to that lesser group. It's not an orientalism thing specifically.

Reading too much into genre is a fool's trap; it's barely 15 years ago that Japan pumped out grimdark violent brutally-difficult action you had to import while most American console development was cutesy platformers.

 

[jman2050]

I find an interesting irony in the yearning of some people to understand cultures from the East as a result of curiosity or whatnot. Maybe they should take a look at their own side of the pond first. Coming from a Puerto Rican family, I know of quite a bit of interesting and "exotic" aspects of many Hispanic cultures that I imagine these people would be interested in if they took the time to look. Or if said regions made popular video games and animated television programs I guess.

 

[genjiZERO]

I'm bothered by this perception that Japanese culture is like this "otherworldly" kind of thing (like many other Eastern cutures) that simply couldn't be comprehended by the average Westerner or something like that, as if all of Western culture somehow got represented by American and everyone was eating hamburgers and whatnot. The whole excoticism of East Asian culture and Orientalism has to stop. Seriously, coming form a background of East Asian cultures, the similarities/parallels with other Western cultures far outweighs the differences...

And when it comes to translations, you be pretty disappointed once you realize "oh, so that's it?" and the "cultural charm" starts starts to rub off. People play games because they're fun, not because they are some sort of introspective towards a certain cultures and some shit.

You misunderstand me. I don't view it as "otherwordly" at all. I just like cultures in general and Japanese culture specifically. Because of that I want it to be as authentic as possible. When I was a child videogames were seen as a very Japanese thing. I also love Italian, English, German, Indian and Chinese cultures as well. If I was going to experience something that I perceived to be representations of those cultures too I'd want them to be as equally as authentic.

 

[jman2050]

You misunderstand me. I don't view it as "otherwordly" at all. I just like cultures in general and Japanese culture specifically. Because of that I want it to be as authentic as possible. When I was a child videogames were seen as a very Japanese thing. I also love Italian, English, German, Indian and Chinese cultures as well. If I was going to experience something that I perceived to be representations of those cultures too I'd want them to be as equally as authentic.

You just have to remember that when it comes to stuff like games, anime, whatever, it's less about the art and more about them trying to sell shit to as many people as possible. Maintaining the original cultural aspects of a work may be interesting and more faithful, but it sure as hell isn't going to sell to people who don't know better and just see the resulting product as weird or unfamiliar.

 

[BocoDragon]

Reading too much into genre is a fool's trap; it's barely 15 years ago that Japan pumped out grimdark violent brutally-difficult action you had to import while most American console development was cutesy platformers.

And all through it, I probably preferred those "grimdark" platformers back then and I'd probably prefer their cutesy platformers now :lol

It has nothing to do with a cultural fetish (at least, not a consious one) and IMO simply means that I share tastes with the Japanese gaming audience (and why wouldn't I? We're all human, and I have been "raised" in their culture of gaming just as much as they have).

I certainly give many western games a chance: I like Valve, Beyond Good and Evil was fun, etc... But 95% of the games I enjoy come from Japan.. even now, in these dark ages for Japanese gaming. I am almost certain to enjoy anything popular in Japan (Dragon Quest, Monster Hunter, etc) while almost every popular western gaming trend doesn't interest me on the surface, and actually denies me enjoyment when I try it (Guitar Hero, Halo, Call of Duty, BioWare).

And I'm NOT alone in the slightest. Look around on GAF. And it's NOT a weeaboo thing. If the west catered to similar tastes, the lines would surely blur: but they don't.

 

[genjiZERO]

You just have to remember that when it comes to stuff like games, anime, whatever, it's less about the art and more about them trying to sell shit to as many people as possible. Maintaining the original cultural aspects of a work may be interesting and more faithful, but it sure as hell isn't going to sell to people who don't know better and just see the resulting product as weird or unfamiliar.

Oh I know. I only rue silently to myself and on the anonymity of the interwebs. It's the right business decision.

 

[Mandoric]

You misunderstand me. I don't view it as "otherwordly" at all. I just like cultures in general and Japanese culture specifically. Because of that I want it to be as authentic as possible. When I was a child videogames were seen as a very Japanese thing. I also love Italian, English, German, Indian and Chinese cultures as well. If I was going to experience something that I perceived to be representations of those cultures too I'd want them to be as equally as authentic.

But most of the cultural influence is in what archetypes the characters are chosen from, their interactions, and the general weltanschauung expressed by their actions, not in the exact choice of words. You're not losing essential Japaneseness because someone making gay jokes calls their target a fag rather than a homo, or (unless maaaaaybe if it's quite specifically set in Japan) when the female characters say they're going to a spa rather than a hot springs to relax.

Now, if you want to talk the merits of complete rewrites of things which were originally very Japanese, you might have a point, but if we restrict matters to the past two generations this is basically a Devil Kings bitch thread in disguise.

 

[sfried]

I find an interesting irony in the yearning of some people to understand cultures from the East as a result of curiosity or whatnot. Maybe they should take a look at their own side of the pond first. Coming from a Puerto Rican family, I know of quite a bit of interesting and "exotic" aspects of many Hispanic cultures that I imagine these people would be interested in if they took the time to look. Or if said regions made popular video games and animated television programs I guess.

The grass is always greener on the other side for most folks. But yeah, looking at alot of your own culture you'd probably find a rich heritage to draw from.

Just because I've taken 5 semesters of Japanese doesn't mean I'm suddenly just like every single game made in Japan and dislike the rest. In fact, 99% of the time I don't care about where the game comes from. I play it because its fun or it interests me. National origin doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to my enjoyment.

 

[Omegasquash]

Why does anyone care so long as the story remains largely (and I mean really largely) the same? Woolsey didn't turn FFVI into a story about a world of recovering alcohols trying to stop the evil Jack Daniels (Kefka) from turning the world into a fucked up distillery. He translated and localized that shit.

 

[Red Scarlet]

How different was the GBA localization of FF6 compared to the SNES version? I only have the Japanese version.

 

[MoxManiac]

Why does anyone care so long as the story remains largely (and I mean really largely) the same? Woolsey didn't turn FFVI into a story about a world of recovering alcohols trying to stop the evil Jack Daniels (Kefka) from turning the world into a fucked up distillery. He translated and localized that shit.

I'd play that!

 

[Princess Skittles]

How different was the GBA localization of FF6 compared to the SNES version? I only have the Japanese version.

I beleive it was mostly the same for dialog, albeit a few touch ups and changes here and there (much like Chrono Trigger, I think). The lore (items/spells/monsters) was changed to be consistent with the modern series localization efforts.

 

[Red Scarlet]

Oh, ok.

 

[explodet]

I'd play that!

Would that turn Doom / Poltergeist / Goddess into Johnnie Walker / Jim Beam / Jose Cuervo?

 

[Nairume]

Why does anyone care so long as the story remains largely (and I mean really largely) the same? Woolsey didn't turn FFVI into a story about a world of recovering alcohols trying to stop the evil Jack Daniels (Kefka) from turning the world into a fucked up distillery. He translated and localized that shit.

It'd give a whole new meaning to the Self Help Book joke :lol

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I'm bothered by this perception that Japanese culture is like this "otherworldly" kind of thing (like many other Eastern cutures) that simply couldn't be comprehended by the average Westerner or something like that, as if all of Western culture somehow got represented by American and everyone was eating hamburgers and whatnot. The whole excoticism of East Asian culture and Orientalism has to stop. Seriously, coming form a background of East Asian cultures, the similarities/parallels with other Western cultures far outweighs the differences...

And when it comes to translations, you be pretty disappointed once you realize "oh, so that's it?" and the "cultural charm" starts starts to rub off. People play games because they're fun, not because they are some sort of introspective towards a certain cultures and some shit.

Healthy facination is okay, but when it comes to blind perceptions like this I'm a little shaken.

I can appreciate the concern (Said's Orientalism is sitting on my bookshelf behind me), but you can appreciate engaging in a culture that's different from your own without fetishizing the experience.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Woolsey did a great job. He added flavor to FF6 and did a miracle with Chrono Trigger. For CT he had to cut the script in half because of constraints by Nintendo! I will always prefer a good localization than a pretentious litteral translation. Any one played the FF6 and CT retranslation? The FF6 one is terrible. They switched ''Magic'' for ''Demons'' almost everywhere and added a bunch of swearing every 3 sentences. For CT it's all sbout Princess Marledia-Sama, Lavos Sama and switching ''mystics'' with ''demons''.