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[Aeana]

It's used for that item though (下&#30010!
Thanks though. Help me w/ my guide if you can!

Sure, I can try. Send me a PM with whatever you need.

 

[Fugu]

I think it's just a generally futile effort to try to win people over to your "it can be simultaneously a great localization but a poor translation" argument, as even if one is to concede the point, it seems largely irrelevant. It's difficult to ascertain the objective of what you're arguing.

Outside of examining the script as an academic analysis behind the creator's intentions, if I'm to draw the distinction between 'translating' and 'localizing', then the latter seems much more important and the former barely worth looking at.

Perhaps I just enjoy debate; I'm not entirely sure how to respond to the first part of this.

It depends on what's being translated. I would argue that for a work of quality writing, a localization is detrimental to understanding.

 

[sfried]

There are more sides to translation than literal and naturalized. There are shades in the middle. A translation could have perfectly acceptable English grammar but include foreign objects/concepts, such as foods, deities, traditions, etc. that have no equivalent in English, but don't break the English either if inserted in the translation. By putting them in there, the reader is learning about a foreign culture. Making people learn about foreign cultures is a good thing.

The trouble is, how to make translations that do not need "translator notes". Those things are friggin' annoying.

- Representing characters from different regions in Japan is difficult.

Why not use British equivallents instead of American? They almost have the same parallel equivallents. Osakan = Georgie accent.

 

[Man God]

Hmm. Bringing up One Piece and that stupid "nakama" business actually made me think of another tricky situation.

The pirates Shirohige and Kurohige are translated by official translators and fans alike into Whitebeard and Blackbeard, respectively. Makes sense, since they're pirates and that's the obvious naming scheme that it's based off of.

Then there's the navy admirals Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji. The official translation and fans leave these as Japanese, because the literal translations of their names ("Red Dog," "Yellow Monkey," and "Blue Pheasant") are not only a reference to the Momotaro story, but would sound laughable to Westerners (a problem since all three are supposed to be fearful and terrifying figures). The joke about their name is totally lost on Westerners and can only be rectified by explaining the Momotaro story. Do you try to find a Western analog, or do you just accept that it's going to be lost in translation?

It's a non issue because they all prove themselves terrifying because of their actions rather quickly making that added layer a bit superfluous. :lol

 

[Fugu]

That's technically correct. It's a request. See, you're so particularly and wanting to be technically correct that you've gotten yourself into this mess. I remember being like that. Wasn't really good for me. Have fun with your life. I've really nothing else to tell you at this point.

It's not a request. "You are going to _" is more of a demand.

I wouldn't call this a mess. It's a debate over the internet, plain and simple. It hasn't negatively impacted my life. In fact I've learned quite a bit about a subject that I don't pay a lot of attention to.

But that's not the purpose of entertainment.

Right, and that's why when the value is explicitly entertainment, localizations are fantastic to make the core entertainment more accessible to audiences that don't speak Japanese or understand any of the culture.

Even for the naturally inquisitive person who's willing to put up with it, the experience is fundamentally changed. Is it still a good translation when literally no native speakers of the target audience can enjoy it in the same way as the original audience?

But the experience is the same for those who can understand. They have the potential to enjoy it in the same way and that potential is offered by a direct translation but not a localization. In fact, it may offer more enjoyment, such as the satisfaction of understanding how the foibles of other cultures relate to your own.

I actually missed this question initially; I also enjoyed your summarizing post as it wraps it up quite neatly.

 

[Christine]

But the experience is the same for those who can understand.

I don't think that's true. Remember the example with puns? Reading a play on words in a language you understand is a completely different experience from having a foreign language pun explained to you in a footnote. Any footnoting or annotation is necessarily a rather abrupt alteration to the experience. Also, while the reader might understand a colloquialism or cultural reference due to prior study, he still is not having the same experience as a reader who has been familiar with the referent through cultural osmosis for most of their lives.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I don't think that's true. Remember the example with puns? Reading a play on words in a language you understand is a completely different experience from having a foreign language pun explained to you in a footnote. Any footnoting or annotation is necessarily a rather abrupt alteration to the experience. Also, while the reader might understand a colloquialism or cultural reference due to prior study, he still is not having the same experience as a reader who has been familiar with the referent through cultural osmosis for most of their lives.

And the counter argument to this is that the person would be learning, or may eventually learn over time. But I just can't buy that. Because most things aren't going to have the translator notes, because they are jarring. Mostly, because they are going for emotional effect, not for education.

 

[soco]

And the counter argument to this is that the person would be learning, or may eventually learn over time. But I just can't buy that. Because most things aren't going to have the translator notes, because they are jarring. Mostly, because they are going for emotional effect, not for education.

i can only begin to imagine how much of a bad idea translator notes in a game would be. there's not a single good way to implement them in most modern video games.

 

[Man God]

i can only begin to imagine how much of a bad idea translator notes in a game would be. there's not a single good way to implement them in most modern video games.

Alternate audio or subtitle track. Why bother would be a better reason. I can't think of very many games that have been released recently or will be released recently where translation notes would be anything other than unnecessary.

 

[Deft Beck]

Alternate audio or subtitle track. Why bother would be a better reason. I can't think of very many games that have been released recently or will be released recently where translation notes would be anything other than unnecessary.

This reminded me of the whole Assassin's Creed 2 subtitle thing. You know, where they say the Italian word in the subtitles and have the English translation immediately following it in parentheses.
Is that really relevant here, though? There is an obvious reason why the characters speak mostly English peppered with Italian (plot-wise) but the subtitle thing just seems weird to me.

 

[Curufinwe]

The trouble is, how to make translations that do not need "translator notes". Those things are friggin' annoying.
Why not use British equivallents instead of American? They almost have the same parallel equivallents. Osakan = Georgie accent.

I assume you mean Geordie.

 

[Mandoric]

i can only begin to imagine how much of a bad idea translator notes in a game would be. there's not a single good way to implement them in most modern video games.

In the manua--
Okay, never mind, you're right. :lol

Here's another oddball one from Yotsuba&! Early in the series one of the neigbors asks Yotsuba what her dad does as a profession.. she replies that he is a "konyakuka" when in actuality he is a "honyakuka" &#32763;&#35379;&#23478;. This leads to the same neighbor asking Yotsuba's dad about what he considers to be the best konyaku <konyaaku?>

How would one translate something like this? ADV botched it completely when they translated the manga, I haven't seen Yen Press' version... It just seems like something that could go either way.. using translator's notes to have to explain the joke away, or to find an english equivalent that wouldn't affect the meaning?

Pun translator to a cooking profession. French baker, maybe? Then make the followup question about baguettes.

 

[DDayton]

I think the differences here basically boil down to whether you think the written text is itself intrinsically valuable or whether you think the written text is a means to an end, a tool used to divulge information and induce a response from your readers.

I tend to think that it's always the latter.

What I find amusing is that while I agree with the majority sentiment in this thread, which is that a proper localization isn't a pure translation, I'm puzzled that so many on GAF think that.

Why? Well, the big argument in gaming circles (and on GAF) always seems to be about how "VIDEO GAMES ARE ART." I don't want to get into that whole thing again, but it strikes me that when dealing "with art" (or, perhaps, "significant art"), you'd want a literal translation to retain the author's words and vision. If the focus isn't necessarily the artistic merit but rather on the fun and inviting gameplay, then you'd not worry about that and just localize.

I mean, no one "localizes" Dante. They translate Dante. Folks do, however, localize sitcoms and television cartoons.

(...and Shrek...)

 

[Mael]

What I find amusing is that while I agree with the majority sentiment in this thread, which is that a proper localization isn't a pure translation, I'm puzzled that so many on GAF think that.

Why? Well, the big argument in gaming circles (and on GAF) always seems to be about how "VIDEO GAMES ARE ART." I don't want to get into that whole thing again, but it strikes me that when dealing "with art" (or, perhaps, "significant art"), you'd want a literal translation to retain the author's words and vision. If the focus isn't necessarily the artistic merit but rather on the fun and inviting gameplay, then you'd not worry about that and just localize.

I mean, no one "localizes" Dante. They translate Dante. Folks do, however, localize sitcoms and television cartoons.

(...and Shrek...)

What the hell are you talking about?
The very best translations are NEVER literal translations.
I mean just look at Beaudelaire translating Poe, it's the farthest you could be from a literal translation and yet it transcribes better Poe's text than Poe could have done if he was fluent in both language.
Even in languages as close as English and French a literal translation is worthless as the style, the energy and the sonority of the original text is lost in translation anyway.
It's especially true for poems where the meanings and the sounds used are extremly important.
If you want the most authentic reading of a text, well better learn the language because no translation will work.
If you can't you use the translation made by someone who knows what the author meant and how he meant, why do you think nobody use a computer to make a literal translation of books.

As for Dante's Inferno?

Year|Translator|Notes
1805–1814...Henry Francis Cary..................An older translation, widely available online.
1867............Henry Wadsworth Longfellow....The first US translation, raising American interest in the poem. It is still widely read, including online.
1933–1943...Laurence Binyon......................In an English version of terza rima.
1949–1962...Dorothy L. Sayers....................Translated for Penguin Classics, intended for a wider audience, and completed by Barbara Reynolds.
1954–1970...John Ciardi..............................His Inferno was recorded and released by Folkways Records in 1954.
1981............C. H. Sisson...........................Available in Oxford World's Classics.
1980–1984...Allen Mandelbaum...................Available online.
1967–2002...Mark Musa..............................An alternative Penguin Classics version.
2000–2007...Robert and Jean Hollander.......Online as part of the Princeton Dante Project.
2002–2004...Anthony M. Esolen..................Modern Library Classics edition.
2006–2007...Robin Kirkpatrick...................A third Penguin Classics version, replacing Musa's.

 

[charlequin]

I don't want to get into that whole thing again, but it strikes me that when dealing "with art" (or, perhaps, "significant art"), you'd want a literal translation to retain the author's words and vision.

You have no idea what you're talking about here. :lol The sheer range of translation styles people apply to the classics -- and the amount of controversy about these decisions -- put video games (where, for the most part, it's fairly rare to have multiple good but philosophically distinct translations of any work available for comparison) to shame.

I think it's especially funny that you use Dante as your example. I've read Inferno in rhyming and prose translations, in literal and figurative translation styles, in versions bound to the translations of the past and versions that purposely rejected them. If I had construct the syllabus for comparative translation seminar, Inferno would be one of the top works on my list to show off just how much people can disagree about this shit. (The Arabian Nights is a good one too, just to show off what a total lunatic Sir Richard Burton was.)

A comparison of just the first line of various English-language translations of Inferno just as a simple example:

INFERNO Line 1 in Dante original:
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita

INFERNO Line 1 in different English translations:
In my middle of my lifetime
Midway in human life's allotted span,
Halfway through our trek in life
Midway the path of life that men pursue
Halfway along the path of this existence
In the middle of this mortal life
At midpoint of the journey of our life
Upon the journey of our life midway
When I had journeyed half of our life’s way
Midway in our life’s journey, I went astray
Halfway along the road we have to go
In the midst of my journey through this life of ours,

 

[badcrumble]

ON FIRST LOOKING INTO VAGRANT STORY (with deepest apologies to John Keats)

Much have I travell'd in the games of old,
And many Zero Wings and FF7s seen;
Round many eastern imports have I been
Which nerds in fealty to Nihongo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That Y. Matsuno ruled as his demesne:
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till A. O. Smith spoke out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of E3
When a new Zelda swims into his ken;
Or like Cloud Strife, when with Mako eyes
He stared at the world map—and all his friends
Look'd at each other with a wild surmise—
Silent, upon the stony Midgar plains.

 

[Azih]

But the experience is the same for those who can understand. They have the potential to enjoy it in the same way and that potential is offered by a direct translation but not a localization.

How fluent are you in your other languages aside from English? Because I gotta say, as a person fluent in two languages, that what you're saying is just plainly not true.

 

[NichM]

It occurs to me that my every post in this thread addressing fugu and Squidi should have just been directing them to read Le Ton Beau de Marot.

 

[DDayton]

But you don't do a goddamn literal translation of Dante. You'd have to be insane to suggest such a thing; it'd completely ruin him.

What the hell are you talking about?
The very best translations are NEVER literal translations.

You have no idea what you're talking about here. :lol The sheer range of translation styles people apply to the classics -- and the amount of controversy about these decisions -- put video games (where, for the most part, it's fairly rare to have multiple good but philosophically distinct translations of any work available for comparison) to shame.

Okay, this is why I don't post at 5 am ... my mind must turn into a goo.

What I meant was that in literature, you stay closer to "transferring every detail" while in other things one tends to replace concepts/themes with different ones. You don't do a word for word translation of Dante or Homer, but you do strive to retain all the essential elements of the original. This is less important in other mediums, where you might strive to retain the style without the details.

You do rewrite, but you don't change the material in a good translation of a classical literary work.

Edit: A better way to express my mindset and thoughts might be that there is a sliding scale between an exact translation and a very loose translation. In general, exact and close translations are preferred for works deemed significant, with far looser translations being frowned upon. Thus, culturally significant works (art?) tends to demand a closer translation so as to retain more of the original work in the translation.

Dante was a poor choice on my part, as his writing introduces the additional problem of translating a non-prose form. Perhaps I should have used Cervantes.

 

[charlequin]

It occurs to me that my every post in this thread addressing fugu and Squidi should have just been directing them to read Le Ton Beau de Marot.

Oh shits!

:bow NichM :bow2

:bow Hofstadter :bow2

Anyone who cares about translation even a little bit should read this. Shit is fucking gold.

 

[Rebochan]

I find the blind Woolsey worship as silly as the "Keikaku" crowd. Translations are not some sacred unquestionable screed that cannot be improved upon, and Woolsey is not immune to criticism (nor deserving of death threats either). If anything, they can be largely subjective since the translator is not only taking the text from one language to another, but making a personal choice as to how to best convey that message. Not to mention that not everyone interprets a story the same way, so two different translations may reflect that.

I also don't get the school of thought that suggests the only way to translate is:

1) Throw everything out that you don't like and rewrite it to whatever you want (the Ireland school)

or

2) Oneechan-tachi-sama! SUGOI SEMPAI POWAAAA UPPPPU!! (the insane person school)

Woolsey's scripts were great, especially for 90s scripts, but they had room for improvement. Knowing that he was literally told "Okay, you have to translate the entire game in a month, cut about half the dialog to cram it in, and follow Nintendo's content guidelines to a T", they're freaking art. But that didn't stop me from preferring the clarity added by the FFVI Advance script.

...I wish I'd made up that "Oneechan-tachi-sama" bit. God I hate lazy fansubbers.

 

[Sqorgar]

It occurs to me that my every post in this thread addressing fugu and Squidi should have just been directing them to read Le Ton Beau de Marot.

Squidi?

 

[RyuTay]

Localization has never been a bad thing. It's honestly the best thing that can happen to a foreign property since it's a huge part of the season things sell overseas. Not to mention it's the entire reason things feel natural to overseas audiences just as they did in their domestic setting.

(Yeah this thread's old, but I've always been fascinated by the subject of localization.)

 

[brap]

Epic bump fellow brony!!

 

[s34ab]

Localization has never been a bad thing.

It is when the story gets changed, or they decide to push their political beliefs.

 

[Clear]

Holy necrobump Batman...

But here's the key thing to remember about localization. Symbol count was/is a big fucking deal.

Its easy to forget how tight on memory these old games were and even more importantly, the limitations on how much readable text you can fit on a 256x224 display at any given time.

This is why back in the 80's and 90's writing in games was so primitive. Unless you wrote everything as haiku (or were doing a text adventure with no graphics to worry about) you ran into issues pretty damn quick.

 

[RyuTay]

It is when the story gets changed, or they decide to push their political beliefs.

That's true. In that case, let me rephrase what I said:
In and of itself, the act of localization has never been a bad thing. But like everything, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.

 

[Tesseract]

his writing was fun, i riked eet

haven't played ff6 since i was a kid tho, dunno if it holds up

 

[Psykotik]

i dont mind these epic bumps. ff3s snes localization was fine. wasnt a fan of the gba version.

 

[Starlight Lotice]

I grew up playing rpgs like FFVI and Chrono Trigger. I knew that some parts of the writing of said games sounded kind of off, but only found out later that there was numerous unneeded translation changes.

Up until now I have always seen Woolseyism described as an inherently bad thing.

So why does this tvtropes article seem to make it seem that it's positive thing?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Woolseyism

Does anyone see this as positive thing?

Was his changes worse than Victor Irelands?

Why is there not a "WorkDesignism" trope where they bump the difficulty up significantly and add American Pop Culture references?

I played the original SNES version of Final Fantasy IV on the Virtual Console after playing the GBA version and honestly, it wasn't as bad as I thought, the text had to fit within the games scope and the difficulty was not changed (unlike the GBA version which was tough as nails).

It's half and half for me, it can be a good thing if a Japanese joke doesn't work for the RoW but can be done in a negative way if done terribly.

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

Was his changes worse than Victor Irelands?

Why is there not a "WorkDesignism" trope where they bump the difficulty up significantly and add American Pop Culture references?

I played the original SNES version of Final Fantasy IV on the Virtual Console after playing the GBA version and honestly, it wasn't as bad as I thought, the text had to fit within the games scope and the difficulty was not changed (unlike the GBA version which was tough as nails).

It's half and half for me, it can be a good thing if a Japanese joke doesn't work for the RoW but can be done in a negative way if done terribly.

 

[-Arcadia-]

At this rate, I fully expect to find a thread announcing Evilore’s birth bumped in the next day or two.

 

[RyuTay]

I don't think this should be much of a challenge: what are your favorite Woolseyisms?

 

[Shifty]

Continuing, the bump wars are.

 

[diffusionx]

There's another word for Woolseyisms, it is SOUL

 

[#Phonepunk#]

idg the thread. every translator has to make decisions about what to bring in or what to cut, what references to change, etc.

seems like butthurt bullshit to blame it on a single guy. the dude did his job to the best of his abilities. if it wasn't him translating those games, it would have been someone else, and they might have made different changes.

if you want to experience a game in it's original state then learn the language. a full 1:1 translation is an impossibility, given the differences between English and Japanese.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I consider Woolseyism an amusing part of gaming history, kind of like the Wilhelm scream. No need to take your 1000-year-old dragon waifu JRPG so seriously.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Since when was incoherent awkwardness a good thing?

Since the last presidential campaign.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

 

[Rodolink]

Xenogears and Secret of Mana are the worst I've found "you got -wacked- by a monster" or calling "hey doc" a wise old man as if a 90s street pop kid.

 

[Trojita]

It's been 9 years.

 

[iconmaster]

"Spoony bard" is the reason I'm a Woolsey man today.

 

[Orenji Neko]

I honestly think Ted Woolsey did the best that could be done with the limitations (time, data space, censorship) that he had honestly. I would have loved to see what a FFVII translation under him, without those limitations, could have turned up like. (The "Beacause" re-translation is really good by the way.) I don't feel like he ever went anywhere near what extremes Working Designs would do to a game (modern pop culture references and the like). I still appreciate them for making my Sega CD a joy to own however.


In regard to FFIV, this one was translated by Kaoru Moriyama before Woolsey became their translator. I believe she also did FF1 and had completed the beta draft of FF2 Famicom before they decided to not release it in the US, and skipped to FFIV to capitalize on the newly released SNES.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

It's been 9 years.

This thread is older than my member status.

Also, Spoony Bard>Literally everything

 

[w92kp]

Anyone interested in the localization/Woolsey/FF6 should check these articles out.

The original translation of FF6 contains a good number of critical errors, but considering the limitations and resources available at the time, you can't be too hard on Woolsey.